Guild Wars 2

Just wanted to comment on a few things.

Infamous Darkness.3284:

1) ele if using fiery rush from FGS #4 without a target and FGS#3 plus LH when on cooldown they will likely be the highest dps in your party by quite a margin, not to mention their ability to stack 25 might for the group and perma fury I think they deserve #1or 2 spot.

Don’t forget to mention that Staff Elementalists have probably the best fire field right now with Lava Font taking Persistent Flames. They are definitely the best when it comes to stacking Might right now.

Infamous Darkness.3284:

2) warrior brings quite a lot of utility to the group actually using GS,A/M banners and able to stack somewhere between 18-22stacks of vulnerability on their own for a short time, also able to create fire fields(wouldn’t suggest it but still there and able to blast them), also if using soldier runes can cleanse about the same number of conditions as the engineer (with a different build from the one above that would be using banners and “on my mark”) also can take trait empower allies for more power for the group

Warriors cannot cleanse as many conditions as Engineers can. With any build. Fumigate removes up to 5 conditions on allies you hit with it. With Fireforged Trigger, it has a 10 second cooldown. Nothing a Warrior has can match that frequency, and that’s not taking Super Elixir or the Healing Turret yet into the equation.

Infamous Darkness.3284:

3) I feel that you are selling rangers a bit short as they can provide ok vunerability, stone spirit for protection, frost spirit for extra damage, spirit of nature for a group res, and I believe the longest lasting water field through their healing spring, and condition cleanse, they can also bring might and fury stacking to the party through their pets and warhorn.

Don’t forget Spotter. Re: Healing Spring, it’s very good. But the problem is that Rangers have like 2 Blast finishers across the entire class—one of which is on a specific pet.

What then results is a situation in which no one has their blast finishers available because they used them all to stack Might for the group. It’s a really great skill in WvW, and on paper it’s fantastic in PvE—but actual application varies in effectiveness within dungeons.

Phineas Poe.3018:

You said “people defend their class blindly with very little knowledge of pve mechanics and understanding of the other classes.”

I guess I misinterpreted what you said and should have seen it as, I don’t know, a compliment?

I was generalising. Wasnt directed at anyone in particular. Although a few people in this thread do fit that description. Not everyone is experienced and theres nothing wrong with that. I do take issue when they make biased claims while having that lack of experience.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Just wanted to comment on a few things.

Infamous Darkness.3284:

1) ele if using fiery rush from FGS #4 without a target and FGS#3 plus LH when on cooldown they will likely be the highest dps in your party by quite a margin, not to mention their ability to stack 25 might for the group and perma fury I think they deserve #1or 2 spot.

Don’t forget to mention that Staff Elementalists have probably the best fire field right now with Lava Font taking Persistent Flames. They are definitely the best when it comes to stacking Might right now.

Infamous Darkness.3284:

2) warrior brings quite a lot of utility to the group actually using GS,A/M banners and able to stack somewhere between 18-22stacks of vulnerability on their own for a short time, also able to create fire fields(wouldn’t suggest it but still there and able to blast them), also if using soldier runes can cleanse about the same number of conditions as the engineer (with a different build from the one above that would be using banners and “on my mark”) also can take trait empower allies for more power for the group

Warriors cannot cleanse as many conditions as Engineers can. With any build. Fumigate removes up to 5 conditions on allies you hit with it. With Fireforged Trigger, it has a 10 second cooldown. Nothing a Warrior has can match that frequency, and that’s not taking Super Elixir or the Healing Turret yet into the equation.

Infamous Darkness.3284:

3) I feel that you are selling rangers a bit short as they can provide ok vunerability, stone spirit for protection, frost spirit for extra damage, spirit of nature for a group res, and I believe the longest lasting water field through their healing spring, and condition cleanse, they can also bring might and fury stacking to the party through their pets and warhorn.

Don’t forget Spotter. Re: Healing Spring, it’s very good. But the problem is that Rangers have like 2 Blast finishers across the entire class—one of which is on a specific pet.

What then results is a situation in which no one has their blast finishers available because they used them all to stack Might for the group. It’s a really great skill in WvW, and on paper it’s fantastic in PvE—but actual application varies in effectiveness within dungeons.

you are right I did forget fumigate, I was thinking soldier rune warrior with 3 shouts can remove 4 conditions, (I always forget fumigate since it doesn’t remove your own conditions[it does make a very nice combination with a guardian using save yourselves]
but no I didn’t forget the spotter traits for the ranger I was just trying to add to the list singer already had so I tried not to repeat anything he/she put down (though I did remention the spirits since I felt they were selling them short)

Nobody argues that an Engineer won’t be useful to a party; the point is that, given you have the choice between every profession, you would hardly ever pick an Engineer. That’s why people rank Engineer very low on a dungeon usefulness list.

DesertRose.2031:

Nobody argues that an Engineer won’t be useful to a party; the point is that, given you have the choice between every profession, you would hardly ever pick an Engineer. That’s why people rank Engineer very low on a dungeon usefulness list.

+1

Couldnt of put it better myself.

DesertRose.2031:

Nobody argues that an Engineer won’t be useful to a party; the point is that, given you have the choice between every profession, you would hardly ever pick an Engineer. That’s why people rank Engineer very low on a dungeon usefulness list.

Please show me how many classes actually contribute to #1-6 as I listed equally as well as an Engineer can.

Please show me how many classes can give 15 stacks of Might, 15 seconds of Stealth, a ton of Vulnerability, condition removal, and a Water field all under one build.

I just can’t fathom how you can establish that Engineers do in one slot what it takes 2-3 classes to achieve and say we’re at the bottom of the totem pole. That just makes absolutely zero sense to me.

You guys obsess over what the ideal setup is when you fail to recognize that taking an Engineer fills any hole in the group regardless of what the other 4 players build themselves around. I consider that the ideal class to play. But I guess I’m alone in that.

No class needs to cover all 6 points on their own. Its a 5 man party. Any class that does cover all 6 wont be covering them perfectly / theres a tradeoff. So its not worth it. One of the tradeoffs is bad dps, another is poor reflect uptime/reliability. Another tradeoff is that the smokefield on engi is half the duration of smokescreen and thief can do smokescreen and shadow refuge for stealth.

The vuln is the only good thing engi has that other classes struggle with. The might stacking can be done by almost any group composition aslong as one fire field is provided (warriors, eles, guardians and rangers can all do that). Eles are even better at might stacking than engis.

You’re just being biased.

because the engineer is one class and a great class as it can provide all of these things, the difference comes in that you have 5 party members and each of these can provide a piece to your 6 steps without sacrificing as much as an engineer would, also I think you should add fury in as a number 7 which engineers aren’t so good at giving to party members, also we cant really do all of those things at once. reflections (elixir U and shield 4), condition removal (elixir gun, healing turret, thrown elixirs) might/invisibility (landmine, bombkit, thumper turret, shield 4, healing turret), vulnerability (utility goggles, bomb kit, grenade kit) Stability (elixir B, thumper turret[I guess], Elixir X for yourself), we would have to have 9 utility slots to pull all of these off at their best, also our projectile reflection is not reliable it has bugs one elixir u when thrown on uneven ground often falls through the world gaining no effect and it also has a 50% chance of being a smoke wall which will stop projectiles rather than reflect them which is a huge difference.

edited: put are where it was supposed to say our

spoj.9672:

One of the tradeoffs is bad dps

This is so false. Look at the base Power coefficients for the Bomb Kit’s auto-attack. Look at Shrapnel Grenade and Freeze Grenade. Look at Blunderbuss and Jump Shot. Look at Pry Bar and Flame Blast.

It’s bad enough that you’ve already admitted to having really poor understanding the Engineer (and Ranger), relying on the words of others in this thread to generate your opinion of us. And this is probably the worst thing you keep parroting without personal experience.

The Engineer doesn’t match the Lightning Hammer, but that doesn’t make it “bad.” I can’t imagine anyone who actually has experience running a 25/25/0/0/20 Bomb Kit build in CoF with 8K+ auto-attacks would even remotely think that our DPS output is in question when it counts.

spoj.9672:

another is poor reflect uptime/reliability. Another tradeoff is that the smokefield on engi is half the duration of smokescreen and thief can do smokescreen and shadow refuge for stealth.

I don’t understand why the Smoke field duration matters? It’s the blast finishers that proc the stealth, not the field itself. Smoke Bomb lasts 4 seconds long, which is more than plenty time to fit all your blast finishers in.

spoj.9672:

The might stacking can be done by almost any group composition aslong as one fire field is provided (warriors, eles, guardians and rangers can all do that). Eles are even better at might stacking than engis.

You’re just being biased.

I am not denying the potential that everything the Engineer can do is replaceable with other classes. I’d argue that everything any class can do is ultimately replaceable. I’ve run every dungeon in this game dozens of times, every time with a different group composition. Sometimes my Warrior was the only heavy armored class in the group. Sometimes there was no Mesmer. Sometimes there were no Warriors.

Every class is replaceable.

It’s part of the genius behind how ArenaNet developed this game and created the content, but you don’t need anyone for anything in dungeons or in fractals. People just get comfortable with the setup that has worked for them. And you can argue that Spotter or Banner of Discipline are unique offerings by Rangers or Warriors, but not having Banner of Discipline does not make or break a dungeon run. It just doesn’t. Sorry. It doesn’t. And many times I’ll be edgy and play my Warrior without taking it! Oh, man. How the sky fell that day.

The point is that having an Engineer in your group fills whatever gap your group doesn’t have. By having an Engineer in your group, you know Might will be available. You know that there will be condition removal and Area Healing. You know that if you need to skip content you’ll get a good duration stealth. And you know that Vulnerability with a 25-30 Explosives Engineer is not an issue.

If you want to sit there and whittle down each class to what it’s best at and pray for that combination, that’s your call. I’d rather just run dungeons on my Engineer and seriously not give a flying eff what the other 4 people in my party are, because I’ve done every dungeon with everything. I consider that a significant advantage to playing the class. It’s your choice to devalue it, but that doesn’t make me biased.

My final two cents on this. I don’t think my point will get across any further than it already has. Which is to say—unfortunately to say—probably not at all.

I understood your point fine the first time. You missed mine completely but its obviously pointless repeating myself.

Also I dont think you understand dps. 8k+ damage on an auto attack that takes around about 1 second to cast is not good dps. Its the same thing I tried to make necros understand with lifeblast. Slow big numbers dont mean good dps.

spoj.9672:

8k+ damage on an auto attack that takes around about 1 second to cast is not good dps.

Then apparently the Lightning Hammer isn’t good DPS either.

one of the things that makes lightning hammer good is, every 3rd hit with your auto attack is a blast finisher and a blind+ it is also some solid dps, to your other point I agree every class is replaceable, and you can do content with really any composition, this is why I say that engineer is good for pugs because it can be a jack of all trades, but in an organized run we fall a bit short and would probably just take the last spot. I still run an engineer as my main for basically all content as I find it the most fun to play (I also pug alot).

A few things.

Most players do not min/max their builds. So running party composition “XYZ” in mot cases will not net you a thing. Speed runs are picky and even then rotations communications in many runs play a big part in getting done faster but honest truth is outside speed runs no one should really care.

Of the 6 80s I have (had a ranger deleted kitten make my engineer long ago and still sort of leveling necro) if I had to choose class to enter an dungeon randomly and do it in zerker gear it would be my guardian. Overall it is the most sound choice in terms of what I can do vs DPS loss.

That being said any class can be useful with a competent player at the helm.

I think this topic shows up so much because players are a bit self conscious about their class and want to justify running whatever they are running. The thing to remember is outside of speed runs sorry to say but just about no one cares. If you want to bring the best to your party then do so but in most cases your efforts will go unnoticed.

Engineers are pretty amazing for casual runs, tbh. Even ‘high-end’ ones. They just aren’t as good for record tier runs.

When it comes to casual runs, I tend to just group classes like this:

Top tier: Warrior, guardian.
2nd tier: Mesmer, Thief, Engineer, Ranger, Ele
Dumpster tier: Necro.

Cant go without an ele. :P

No one I play with uses an ele

god the class elitism is for kittening kids. all classes perform well in dungeons. if you don’t agree then stick to your speedclear groups. or join my party and go on a tirade about how zerk armor is superior to everything so i can block you. my list is getting pretty big and my groups less kitteny.

BHB alert!

ellesee.8297:

god the class elitism is for kittening kids. all classes perform well in dungeons. if you don’t agree then stick to your speedclear groups. or join my party and go on a tirade about how zerk armor is superior to everything so i can block you. my list is getting pretty big and my groups less kitteny.

no we were specifically answering the question asked by the OP they wanted to know the most to least useful professions in a dungeon so we laid them out pointing out the features of each one that make them better for certain situations or reasons. I don’t know where you are getting this class elitism from, I main an engineer and I ranked it second to last because although it is a jack of all trades/Swiss army knife, it only excels in a few areas

I main a necro and i rate it dead last. No class elitism here.

i wasn’t talking about the list, even though the idea of categorizing class “usefulness” is moronic. but if you want a list here’s an accurate one. it’s quite possibly the most accurate list you’ll ever find for pve.

1. mesmer
1. engineer
1. warrior
1. guardian
1. necro
1. ranger
1. thief
1. elementalist

i have run every dungeon and every fractal 48+ with every possible group comp. the only thing that matters is the people playing the class, not the class. if you’re talking about speed runs, then that’s the very definition of class elitism and it’s idiotic and most of those people are terrible anyway.

Well thats where you’re wrong. My best class is necro, i probably play it better than 95% of necros in pve and its a class i can play a lot more comfortably. But im much more useful as a warrior/mesmer/guardian/thief/ele…. You get the idea.

yes i have no doubt you are a god amongst other lesser dungeon running necros and obviously your input on dungeon comps is absolute.

ellesee.8297:

i wasn’t talking about the list, even though the idea of categorizing class “usefulness” is moronic. but if you want a list here’s an accurate one. it’s quite possibly the most accurate list you’ll ever find for pve.

1. mesmer
1. engineer
1. warrior
1. guardian
1. necro
1. ranger
1. thief
1. elementalist

i have run every dungeon and every fractal 48+ with every possible group comp. the only thing that matters is the people playing the class, not the class. if you’re talking about speed runs, then that’s the very definition of class elitism and it’s idiotic and most of those people are terrible anyway.

I’ve watched your stream, you don’t exactly pass as any good.

ellesee.8297:

yes i have no doubt you are a god amongst other lesser dungeon running necros and obviously your input on dungeon comps is absolute.

Missed my point entirely.

Woooooosh!

spoj.9672:

Well thats where you’re wrong. My best class is necro, i probably play it better than 95% of necros in pve and its a class i can play a lot more comfortably. But im much more useful as a warrior/mesmer/guardian/thief/ele…. You get the idea.

But there are different ways of being “useful,” which is precisely why I don’t like the argument a lot of you are making. It’s not about what one person does. It’s about whether the group on the whole can fill out the 6-7 “ideals” you want in a group.

Fact of the matter is, you can reach that with more than just Guardians, Warriors, and Mesmers.

Sorry you feel that way about your Necro, but I never turn them away or ever feel like they’re a negative detriment to my group. And I doubt I’m the only one.

You missed the point a few posts back… Yes, it is about the group providing those things. But some classes contribute to those better than others. Some provide only 1 or 2 but really well. Some provide most of them really well. Some provide a few of them but very badly (necro). Some provide a bit of all of them but not very well (engi), which makes them a good class especially for casual runs/pugs. It doesnt make them a higher rank in terms of usefulness though, but I admit that is subjective on how you view it. Im ranking them as whats good in organised groups in semi serious runs. You wouldnt take an engi or necro in those types of runs so they are bottom tier.

I would, actually.

My guildmates don’t suffer for it.

I meant organised semi serious speed clear groups. If you took one of those classes on that type of run it would be slower. And you definately wouldnt take either of them on a record attempt.

A very very select few care about “record attempts”. A very large amount though care about fun, playing with friends, and enjoying the experience with guildies.

It appears to me, that your wanting to have a discussion about a very small minority and ignore the much larger majority.

So closed minded. I have many friends who I run dungeons with. We all play for fun but we optimize our builds and take classes that are useful. You seem to think running optimized groups sucks the fun out of things…. We dont stack certain classes unless we are going for something different but fun. I mentioned record attempts but I was mainly referring to semi serious regular runs. Most of the time you wouldnt take an engi or necro. Not all the time, but most of the time. If i ever take my necro into arah I usually make a joke of “im going to leech”. Because its true, necro is a leech class.

Anyway were going off topic. Engi can be very good but it falls short in a lot of areas so its somewhat subpar for dungeon usefulness.

I don’t define “usefulness” by how quickly one completes a dungeon.

Record attempts are not the concern of most players who are primarily concerned with completing content, especially when there is zero incentive behind how quickly you complete it.

Closed minded? Because I enjoy fun with my friends a guildies, your kidding right? You continually used the terms “organized”, " series", “speed run”, and “record attempts”, and you want to be insulting and call me close minded for mentioning fun over all the terms you used. that was not necessary in the least.

Phineas Poe.3018:

especially when there is zero incentive behind how quickly you complete it.

Doing a 3-4 hour dungeon tour versus an 8 hour dungeon tour seems like a pretty good incentive to me.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Infamous Darkness.3284:

I would disagree because not all jobs need to be done by one party member, for example you could have an ele for max might stacks as well as fury, while still dealing incredibly damage through FGS/LH. then you could bring a ranger for frost spirit, spotter trait for increased precision, and 10 stacks of vulnerability(on their opening strike), warrior with strength and precision banner, with “on my mark” (10 stacks of vulnerability, plus more blast finishers when they drop their banners) if using axe mace can apply 8 more stacks of vulnerability. These 3 classes alone not including the rest of your party members are able to meet all your conditions for maximum damage in a party with a bit extra from ranger with frost spirit (7% more party damage and spotter which is essentially 7%~ extra critical chance for everyone in the group). then you still have 2 spots open for whatever.

All the more reason to accept the fact that any dungeon group composition works, and that these threads are silly.

“YES!” to both of these posts. Which I think was deliberate on a-nets part in order to negate the need for set roles like the trinity. And also the elitist philosophy of one “right” way of building a group. In fact, spreading out the duties requires more organization and teamwork than one character shouldering one duty each.

coglin.1867:

Closed minded? Because I enjoy fun with my friends a guildies, your kidding right? You continually used the terms “organized”, " series", “speed run”, and “record attempts”, and you want to be insulting and call me close minded for mentioning fun over all the terms you used. that was not necessary in the least.

Closed minded in that you assumed I dont do the same (enjoy fun with my friends and guildies) but with optimized builds. I dont see why I cant have fun and do all the things i mentioned.

No, I did not “assume” anything. I based my post and replies on the comments you made in your post (“organized”, " series", “speed run”, and “record attempts”). Your the only one making assumption by your accusation. You mentioned only those serious terms and never mentioned friends, guildies or fun. Do not attempt to insult me for comment on the post you made and not the post you didn’t make.

You’re seeing insults where there are none. The fun factor is irrelevant in class usefulness anyway so I dont see why you even brought it up.

Seeing as any build of any class can complete the content fine, the only way to accurately compare class balance in pve is when optimized. Which is why im mentioning speed clears.

So the engineer forum used to be a pretty cool place…

Expecting Anet to balance around PvE speedclears is not reasonable. Neither is being offended if someone says that engineers are not the fastest speedclearing profession.

spoj.9672:

You’re seeing insults where there are none.

I think not. Because

So closed minded.

Sure isn’t a compliment where I am from.

hybrid.5027:

Doing a 3-4 hour dungeon tour versus an 8 hour dungeon tour seems like a pretty good incentive to me.

There’s a very big difference between wanting to complete something in a reasonable time frame versus focusing around “record kills.”

You can complete most quick dungeon paths (i.e., CoF p1/2, SE p1, HotW p1, etc.) in a reasonable time frame with any group composition so long as players are competent with the class they are playing. My guild runs groups like this every single day. We don’t discriminate over what class you take. Because if it takes you longer than 8 minutes to finish CoF p1, the problem isn’t what class they’re playing but what gear they’re wearing.

coglin.1867:

spoj.9672:

You’re seeing insults where there are none.

I think not. Because

So closed minded.

Sure isn’t a compliment where I am from.

Not everything is black and white.

Phineas Poe.3018:

hybrid.5027:

Doing a 3-4 hour dungeon tour versus an 8 hour dungeon tour seems like a pretty good incentive to me.

There’s a very big difference between wanting to complete something in a reasonable time frame versus focusing around “record kills.”

You can complete most quick dungeon paths (i.e., CoF p1/2, SE p1, HotW p1, etc.) in a reasonable time frame with any group composition so long as players are competent with the class they are playing. My guild runs groups like this every single day. We don’t discriminate over what class you take. Because if it takes you longer than 8 minutes to finish CoF p1, the problem isn’t what class they’re playing but what gear they’re wearing.

We never said you cant take an engi for a fast run. The point is there are better choices. I dont understand why you are denying that.

Ps. You’ve gone back to proving me right about being biased towards your class.

spoj.9672:

We never said you cant take an engi for a fast run.

No, but you said we “shouldn’t.”

spoj.9672:

Im ranking them as whats good in organised groups in semi serious runs. You wouldnt take an engi or necro in those types of runs so they are bottom tier.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but you very clearly relegate Engineer here to being a class you shouldn’t play “seriously.”

spoj.9672:

Ps. You’ve gone back to proving me right about being biased towards your class.

How is saying “everyone is replaceable” and “no one matters” make me biased toward “my” class?

Again, Engineer is NOT the only class I play. Please get this through your head.

Because the only reason you could possibly still be argueing is because you think im wrong? Which means you arent happy with how im ranking engi? Either that or you’re just argueing for the sake of keeping the thread going.

I didnt say you shouldnt play engi seriously. I wouldnt even say that about necro. What I meant is if I was to run some dungeons and we felt like doing them smoothly and efficiently, necro and engi would be last choices because they are not as useful as other classes (going back to the original point of the thread). In reality necro is the only class that id never take in that situation, im perfectly fine with taking an engi in a fast run but it would be one of my least preferable choices.

spoj.9672:

Because the only reason you could possibly still be argueing is because you think im wrong? Which means you arent happy with how im ranking engi? Either that or you’re just argueing for the sake of keeping the thread going.

So anyone who disagrees with you is “biased?”

Sounds legit.

spoj.9672:

I didnt say you shouldnt play engi seriously. I wouldnt even say that about necro. What I meant is if I was to run some dungeons and we felt like doing them smoothly and efficiently, necro and engi would be last choices because they are not as useful as other classes (going back to the original point of the thread).

And I disagree entirely. For reasons already established. The Engineer offers all the things you look for in a party member in a group. Everything. Might. Vulnerability. Condition removal. Stealth. Projectile walls. Group Stability. You even agreed with me on this point.

spoj.9672:

im perfectly fine with taking an engi in a fast run

Then this conversation is over and there is no reason for this thread or the elitism that props up its perpetuity.

Have a good night.

well it’s clear some people understand all classes perform well in dungeons. others will type “zerk gear heavies only” in the lfg tool and eat fire shaman arrows left and right unless there’s a guardian wall in front of them and then proceed to tell me my class isn’t useful in dungeons lol. #1

Phineas Poe.3018:

Then this conversation is over and there is no reason for this thread or the elitism that props up its perpetuity.

Have a good night.

Glad you finally understood my original point. Good night.

Spoj, you need to relax a little and lay off the troll posting. All your doing is initiating a quote war with anyone who disagreed with you Your post was very specific to state that “Every group should take atleast 1 warrior”, make pure damage explanations, post about min/maxing, you refereed to some other posters DPS testing as completely relevant (which is comical since his numbers have been proven completely wrong with real math), called me “close minded” for disagreeing with you, all you mention is “organized”, " series", “speed run”, and “record attempts”,.

The you troll us for speaking of playing for fun with our friends, guildies, and for the sake of fun.

spoj.9672:

Because the only reason you could possibly still be argueing is because you think im wrong? Which means you arent happy with how im ranking engi? Either that or you’re just argueing for the sake of keeping the thread going.

then you go on to be rude and make accusations simply because someone is disagreeing with you.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Please show me how many classes actually contribute to #1-6 as I listed equally as well as an Engineer can.

Please show me how many classes can give 15 stacks of Might, 15 seconds of Stealth, a ton of Vulnerability, condition removal, and a Water field all under one build.

I just can’t fathom how you can establish that Engineers do in one slot what it takes 2-3 classes to achieve and say we’re at the bottom of the totem pole. That just makes absolutely zero sense to me.

You guys obsess over what the ideal setup is when you fail to recognize that taking an Engineer fills any hole in the group regardless of what the other 4 players build themselves around. I consider that the ideal class to play. But I guess I’m alone in that.

Missing the point by a mile here.

Just for the record, I have 1000 hours on my engineer so far, and every class at level 80 so I’ve had plenty of experience with them all.

Engineers can provide a bit of everything, great.

But why is that needed? It isn’t. Dungeons are done with a full group, the entire group should be contributing to fulfilling these roles. Maybe an ele can do the might stacks, guardians the reflects and condition removal, mesmers can help there too, and 25 vuln can be achieved as a sum of the entire party, only single class doesn’t need to cap it.

Plus while all of these things might be accessible in one build, you certainly can’t do it at once. If you want to stack might you have to carry out an akward combo, during which you aren’t dpsing. If you want reflects, you’re probably going to have to drop a blast finisher in order to get elixir U.

Engineer is versatile yeah but I wouldn’t say they outshine other classes in each specific area, just that they can do all of them.