Guild Wars 2

Wich spot on terms of dungeon usefulness does Engi take compared to other classes?
And what makes him take that particular spot?

Couse I guess places 1/2/3 are taken by Wars, Guards and Mesmers

generally the place my engineer takes in a dungeon is Might stacking through use of bomb kit and thumper turret, and vulnerability stacking through grenades and bombs. I run a zerker build though.

1) guard
2) ele (might stacking and utilizing incedible damage from FGS and LH)
3) war
4) mes
5) Theif
6) ranger (frost spirit and spotter trait)
7) Engineer
8) Necro

Completely depends on the build. You can build bombs with great AoE damage, heavy might stacking, vulnerability stacking, and AoE heals in one build.

Also, in dungeons like Arah, The same build can easily place 12s of stealth on the group for al of the places you buzz past the mobs, no thief ever needed. I do it all the time.

Nice AoE regen and water field for blast finisher heals with Heal turret. Perma weakness with EG, and AoE removal of up to 5 conditions per group member with EG#3…………The list goes on and on.

1) guard
2) engineer
3) mes
4) ele
5) ranger
6) thief
7) warrior
8) Necro

coglin.1867:

Completely depends on the build. You can build bombs with great AoE damage, heavy might stacking, vulnerability stacking, and AoE heals in one build.

Also, in dungeons like Arah, The same build can easily place 12s of stealth on the group for al of the places you buzz past the mobs, no thief ever needed. I do it all the time.

Nice AoE regen and water field for blast finisher heals with Heal turret. Perma weakness with EG, and AoE removal of up to 5 conditions per group member with EG#3…………The list goes on and on.

1) guard
2) engineer
3) mes
4) ele
5) ranger
6) thief
7) warrior
8) Necro

What build(s) are you referring to that give 12s of stealth and use the EG?

I just made an engineer and have been looking for good builds that are useful for dungeons.

The strength of an Engineer is how much support and utility he can bring along.
E.g. with my grenade Engineer build I bring roughly 24 stacks of Vulnerability, a fast recharging fire field, 4 blast finisher with fairly short recharge, fast recharging water field, ability to almost perma-blind for ~25 seconds (usually between 1-3 attacks go through), group-wide condition remove and a little bit of group healing (this has gotten weaker relatively with today’s update).

The weakness is that there’s pretty much always a profession that fits better into a group; however there are also always professions that would fit worse into a group than an Engineer.

Infamous Darkness ranking looks quite accurate but keep in mind that the difference between 3-7 is hardly noticeable.

Uurik.2934:

What build(s) are you referring to that give 12s of stealth and use the EG?

I just made an engineer and have been looking for good builds that are useful for dungeons.

I run a condition build with P/S, elixir gun, bomb kit, and rocket boots.

smoke bomb for the smoke field, Big Ol’ Bomb + Shields Magnetic Inversion + Acid Bomb + Rocket Boots.

Its funny how everyone believes warr/guard/mes is the best dungeon comp you can get. Its not, just the most noob friendly.

personally I main an engineer often running THIS build for dungeons, I can stack a lot of might and vulnerability, I just feel as we are one of the less useful classes for dungeons as I think the only thing that we can do better than any other profession is vulnerability application, we also have great range but most dungeons groups don’t want to range from my experience. we also have a lot of blast finishers and our own fields we can create, can get a lot of might/stealth from 7 blast finishers. If you disagree with me please show me where else we are better than any other profession that could take our spot in that dungeon run.

EDIT: Not to make us sound useless we can do a lot of things well with blast finishers and fields, its just other professions can generally do these specific things better…

every class contributes to dungeons, even necros. their 30/10/0/0/30 power build does quite a bit of damage. engis are probably the best vuln stackers in the game. we also have lots of fire and water fields, blast finishers, aoe heals, team condi removal etc.

for the elitists, the best dungeon comp has
1. damage
2. team might stacks
3. team fury stacks
4. vuln stacks
5. projectile reflection

if your build doesn’t have any of these, it still doesn’t matter because pve. run whatever you enjoy playing.

In order to maximize damage in a dungeon, you need to have these in the group in the following order:

1) 25 might stacks
2) Warrior Banners
3) 25 vuln stacks
4) Perma fury.

Engineers are really the only class capable of stacking and maintaining vuln along with providing might stacks. As such they are among the most useful classes for speed running.

I would disagree because not all jobs need to be done by one party member, for example you could have an ele for max might stacks as well as fury, while still dealing incredibly damage through FGS/LH. then you could bring a ranger for frost spirit, spotter trait for increased precision, and 10 stacks of vulnerability(on their opening strike), warrior with strength and precision banner, with “on my mark” (10 stacks of vulnerability, plus more blast finishers when they drop their banners) if using axe mace can apply 8 more stacks of vulnerability. These 3 classes alone not including the rest of your party members are able to meet all your conditions for maximum damage in a party with a bit extra from ranger with frost spirit (7% more party damage and spotter which is essentially 7%~ extra critical chance for everyone in the group). then you still have 2 spots open for whatever.

Infamous Darkness.3284:

I would disagree because not all jobs need to be done by one party member, for example you could have an ele for max might stacks as well as fury, while still dealing incredibly damage through FGS/LH. then you could bring a ranger for frost spirit, spotter trait for increased precision, and 10 stacks of vulnerability(on their opening strike), warrior with strength and precision banner, with “on my mark” (10 stacks of vulnerability, plus more blast finishers when they drop their banners) if using axe mace can apply 8 more stacks of vulnerability. These 3 classes alone not including the rest of your party members are able to meet all your conditions for maximum damage in a party with a bit extra from ranger with frost spirit (7% more party damage and spotter which is essentially 7%~ extra critical chance for everyone in the group). then you still have 2 spots open for whatever.

All the more reason to accept the fact that any dungeon group composition works, and that these threads are silly.

Engineer is 2nd to last because the only thing they are genuinely good at is stacking aoe vuln. But they have pretty low dps compared to other classes so they get dropped down quite far.

Infamous Darkness.3284:

generally the place my engineer takes in a dungeon is Might stacking through use of bomb kit and thumper turret, and vulnerability stacking through grenades and bombs. I run a zerker build though.

1) guard
2) ele (might stacking and utilizing incedible damage from FGS and LH)
3) war
4) mes
5) Theif
6) ranger (frost spirit and spotter trait)
7) Engineer
8) Necro

This is a pretty accurate list. I would rate warriors 1 and guardians 3rd though. Banners are just too important. Every group should take atleast 1 warrior. Cant say that for any other class (maybe ele). This doesnt mean engi isnt viable. Its a pretty good choice if you have all buffs covered except vuln. But theres a reason you dont see engis in any of the current records. The only class that properly falls short and should probably never be taken in a serious run for regular dungeons is the necro.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Infamous Darkness.3284:

I would disagree because not all jobs need to be done by one party member, for example you could have an ele for max might stacks as well as fury, while still dealing incredibly damage through FGS/LH. then you could bring a ranger for frost spirit, spotter trait for increased precision, and 10 stacks of vulnerability(on their opening strike), warrior with strength and precision banner, with “on my mark” (10 stacks of vulnerability, plus more blast finishers when they drop their banners) if using axe mace can apply 8 more stacks of vulnerability. These 3 classes alone not including the rest of your party members are able to meet all your conditions for maximum damage in a party with a bit extra from ranger with frost spirit (7% more party damage and spotter which is essentially 7%~ extra critical chance for everyone in the group). then you still have 2 spots open for whatever.

All the more reason to accept the fact that any dungeon group composition works, and that these threads are silly.

Yes but the OP asked the question, I was happy to assist and do my best to answer it. If you do not like these thread or find them useless/silly, don’t worry you can just, you know not read them…and on your point that any dungeon compositions can work yes I believe for most, maybe all cases that is correct.

spoj.9672:

Engineer is 2nd to last because the only thing they are genuinely good at is stacking aoe vuln. But they have pretty low dps compared to other classes so they get dropped down quite far.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but that’s true only if your party has all the buffs. In a pug party is more than possible not to be the case.

Actually I’m leveling an Engi because I always pugging and never ever see 25 stacks of anything.

Sorry for my English.

Yeah in pugs a nade engi is pretty good. But they still have lower dps than other classes. Obviously boosting group dps with vuln would counter that in a pug and possibly make that groups dps better than if you were taking a 2nd/3rd warrior or an other class. Pug groups are never perfect min/max so it doesnt really matter. Providing vuln for your group is pretty good, its just a shame engi dps is pretty bad. Engi can contribute a lot more than other classes in casual runs thats for sure, its just not great for optimized groups.

Correct me if I’m wrong again, but Engi dps is at the same level than most classes but you need to count the damage that comes from conditions.

No i believe its a bit lower even when including conditions. Which seems right based on the cast times and actual numbers you see compared to other classes. I cant find the post but guang did some numbers and it was like 13k dps for eles and thieves, 12-10k for the others. Ranger and engi were at 9k, with ranger slightly higher than engi. I dont know the exact buffs and conditions used to calculate these values, but they were done under the same assumptions for comparison.

I found this one
http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/84182-dps-rankings/

But I remember another list where ele was doing like 15K and mesmer like 14K. I can’t find it.

Anyway, you are right, more if we take into account that grenade kit doesn’t benefit from having ascended weapons.

spoj.9672:

No i believe its a bit lower even when including conditions. Which seems right based on the cast times and actual numbers you see compared to other classes. I cant find the post but guang did some numbers and it was like 13k dps for eles and thieves, 12-10k for the others. Ranger and engi were at 9k, with ranger slightly higher than engi. I dont know the exact buffs and conditions used to calculate these values, but they were done under the same assumptions for comparison.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/guardian/Guardians-in-Dungeon-Runs
If it is this thread, Guang uses “Engineer: 30/5/0/10/25 P/S with Grenade Kit” to calaulate DPS. But Bomb Kit should have much more DPS, its skill coefficient and attack speed are better than grenades. And I don’t know why there are 10 points in Alchemy, since it didn’t give much DPS boost. Guardian uses 10/30/30/0/0, so it can’t be traited for vigor. Or I missed something that you guys think an engineer shouldn’t use Bomb KIt to maximize damage output?

On guardian forum, that’s why I didn’t find it.

So, I’m really interested in knowing if Blood gave his build to GK in order to crush the numbers. Nevertheless, I still think that Engi will fall behind just for the ascended weapons on kits issue.

That’s what GK said on above link (looks like toolbelt skills are not on the rotation):

Then he moved Ele to first position, but from Engi point of view that’s irrelevant.

EDIT: Probably Engi being in the last postion is due that all DPS can be achived at range, so DPS uptime is higer than any other class.

@Marsuew.8216: boon duration. But you are right, even if we stay with grenades I think max DPS build is 30/30/0/0/10.

I would of thought max dps would be 30/15/0/0/25. Bomb kit doesnt feel any faster than grenades. But Ill just give you the benefit of the doubt seeing as my engi still isnt 80. From the numbers ive seen other engis hit, it doesnt seem like even the max dps build would improve the dps that much. Thats something to look into I guess. I would do so myself but im not that interested in lvling my engi atm and I dont know enough to make accurate calculations.

i’ve seen engis spam 8k bomb auto attacks while stacking team might and vulnerability. your retort.

Well, you can test it. Bomb Kit auto hit about 66 times in a minute, nearly 0.9 pet hit, while grenades hit 60 times in a minute, even if you use instant cast. And Bomb Kit auto efficient is 1.25, 25% more damage than Grenade Kit #1. My math isn’t very good, but I tried to calculate it just like you did in the Necro’s thread, and it reaches 10K.

Thats interesting. Whats the highest uve seen bombs hit for? Because if its around 8k and bomb auto hits 1.1 times per second. Then bombs alone would give about 8.8k dps. 10k seems reasonable and a bit better. Still puts engi in a bit of an awkward position. Seeing as to get good dps you have to sacrifice the vuln stacking. Which means its just like necro but in an even poorer state (lower dps and even worse vuln than necro). Meh pve balance please. :<

You still can maintain 3~5 vuln to Boss from Bomb Kit auto attack, or 7~10 to mobs. You also can uses Grenade Barrage every 24 secs ,Mine Field every 16secs, or Analyze every 24 secs to stack more vuln. I can’t say it’s better or worse than necro, but bomb engi can still might and vuln stacking .

Doesnt seem worth it though. The merit of an engi is reliable vuln. Take that away and you get slightly better individual dps but worse group dps. If I wanted to do that id just play vuln stacking necro which has a lot better dps than engi and seemingly better vuln stacking than bomb engi. Doesnt really matter though, both classes are in pretty poor states for dungeons. Engi can atleast do something about that with vuln.

well with bomb kit it gets a bit interesting because the steel packed powder makes bombs apply a stack of vulnerability on every pulse, meaning firebomb would cause 4 stacks of vulnerability (it pulses 4 times in 3 seconds) the 4 and 5 bomb kit skills also pulse for more stacks of vulnerability but I believe their damage is much lower.

Side note: I know my engineer can easily hit over 14k with grenade barrage, but it seems to me that 1 of the 8 grenades is always missing does any1 else have this issue.

it would also be best to use these 2 kits bomb kit and grenade kit in rotation (grenade barrage, grenade 2, grenade 4,bomb 2,) something like that while using your other utility as the thumper turret(its 3 blast finisher) meaning you can drop BoB, fire bomb, thumper turret, overcharge it, detonate it, and then use its toolbelt skill rumble. for some easy 12 might stacks for the group and then continue with your rotation (dropping bomb 1 skill when all of those other abilities are on cooldown.) you can also get more blast finishers through shield 4 healing turret and supply crate while using the same build (I just have a hard time get off more than 5 blast finisher in the fire field from bomb 2)

Myths like the grenade kit being max damage on the engie are outdated. That started from a very select few players Doing the math on one kit alone. Someone mentioned 30/30/x/x/x to maxumize the bomb kit, thats not really accurate. That is solid for s condition build and I often run it. One problem is that concussive bombs damage is hard to gage. against a random noob thief in WvW it might do 15k damage as the spam the tail off in that 10s the confusion is on them until they die. In another situation. the PvE boss may cleanse the condition and only have it for half the time for one skill use worth of damage.

On paper, players can almost make it appear that grenade kit is the way to go. But it isn’t. and in actual game play the difference is even more noticeable.

Infamous Darkness.3284:

it would also be best to use these 2 kits bomb kit and grenade kit in rotation (grenade barrage, grenade 2, grenade 4,bomb 2,) something like that while using your other utility as the thumper turret(its 3 blast finisher) meaning you can drop BoB, fire bomb, thumper turret, overcharge it, detonate it, and then use its toolbelt skill rumble. for some easy 12 might stacks for the group and then continue with your rotation (dropping bomb 1 skill when all of those other abilities are on cooldown.) you can also get more blast finishers through shield 4 healing turret and supply crate while using the same build (I just have a hard time get off more than 5 blast finisher in the fire field from bomb 2)

Why Thumper Turret? It has a gigantic cooldown.

Even if it offers 2 blast finishers in one slot, you can fit in 3 Throw Mines before Thumper Turret comes off cooldown. And Mine Field actually benefits from Explosive Powder.

Infamous Darkness.3284:

well with bomb kit it gets a bit interesting because the steel packed powder makes bombs apply a stack of vulnerability on every pulse, meaning firebomb would cause 4 stacks of vulnerability (it pulses 4 times in 3 seconds) the 4 and 5 bomb kit skills also pulse for more stacks of vulnerability but I believe their damage is much lower.

Side note: I know my engineer can easily hit over 14k with grenade barrage, but it seems to me that 1 of the 8 grenades is always missing does any1 else have this issue.

Smoke Bomb and Glue Bomb actually deal zero damage. But Glue Bomb benefits from Sitting Duck, so it’s actually worth using as often as it comes up.

Didn’t know that about the pulsing fields triggering Steel-packed Powder. That’s awesome.

Ryn.6459:

…

Engineer: 30/5/0/10/25 P/S with Grenade Kit. Throw Freeze and Shrapnel grenades on cooldown.

…

This is not even remotely close to a max dps rotation for engineer. If you want to calculate engi dps this thread is a good start:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/PvE-Dungeon-Speedrun-Zerk-Build/first

Rotation is incredibly easy. Blunderbuss, Jumpshot, Prybar and spam Bomb till Jumpshot is recharged. Discharge skills use everytime they are on cd (with BOB better wait till boss has defiant)

Also you have to consider that most of engineer’s damage is area effect, which greatly increases dps vs. multiple mobs. Thief and necro dagger is only single target.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Infamous Darkness.3284:

it would also be best to use these 2 kits bomb kit and grenade kit in rotation (grenade barrage, grenade 2, grenade 4,bomb 2,) something like that while using your other utility as the thumper turret(its 3 blast finisher) meaning you can drop BoB, fire bomb, thumper turret, overcharge it, detonate it, and then use its toolbelt skill rumble. for some easy 12 might stacks for the group and then continue with your rotation (dropping bomb 1 skill when all of those other abilities are on cooldown.) you can also get more blast finishers through shield 4 healing turret and supply crate while using the same build (I just have a hard time get off more than 5 blast finisher in the fire field from bomb 2)

Why Thumper Turret? It has a gigantic cooldown.

Even if it offers 2 blast finishers in one slot, you can fit in 3 Throw Mines before Thumper Turret comes off cooldown. And Mine Field actually benefits from Explosive Powder.

well it is actually 3 blast finishers in one slot so you can easily get them all off in one fire field (1st blast finisher from the overcharge, 2nd from the detonation of the turret, and 3rd from its toolbelt skill rumble) and I personally prefer the 3 blast finisher at once in combination to stack the might quickly to quickly end the encounter and move on.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Smoke Bomb and Glue Bomb actually deal zero damage. But Glue Bomb benefits from Sitting Duck, so it’s actually worth using as often as it comes up.

Didn’t know that about the pulsing fields triggering Steel-packed Powder. That’s awesome.

They also have 3 pulses+ initial explosion a piece to proc shrapnel as does fire bombs. Those extra bleeds really add up, and its a 12s base bleed, so its a pretty good duration.

Mork vom Ork.2598:

Ryn.6459:

…

Engineer: 30/5/0/10/25 P/S with Grenade Kit. Throw Freeze and Shrapnel grenades on cooldown.

…

This is not even remotely close to a max dps rotation for engineer. If you want to calculate engi dps this thread is a good start:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/PvE-Dungeon-Speedrun-Zerk-Build/first

Rotation is incredibly easy. Blunderbuss, Jumpshot, Prybar and spam Bomb till Jumpshot is recharged. Discharge skills use everytime they are on cd (with BOB better wait till boss has defiant)

Also you have to consider that most of engineer’s damage is area effect, which greatly increases dps vs. multiple mobs. Thief and necro dagger is only single target.

thanks for the post was gonna post the same thing when i saw you had done it. Engineer is the ultimate 5th slot for any party serious about dungeon run.

3x war
1xengie
1x war or guard

class usefullness;

1.war
2.guard
3.engie
4.ele
5.mes
6.ranger
7.thief
8.necro

Just because that build is pretty good doesn mean it bumps engi to 3rd place lol. Its still 6/7th place.

-Grens, 30 explosives, 20 inventions, 20 alchemy.
-FT, 30 alchemy, 20 firearms, 20 inventions.
-Always pistols and shield unless I need the jump blast from rifle or general pve where the net is useful.
Or similar and while you wont be Mr. Perfect you are going to bring plenty to the group to be worth while. The FT has the advantage, IMHO, of a quick switch to EG and a couple trait flips to become a semi decent support class. I personally despise going for a narrow fielded build because it means you either find yourself deficient occasionally and hence frustrated or respec’ing frequently.

Outside pvp/wvw my personally stance is Grens/FT/PS are currently the only truly viable, practical, and enjoyable builds. Everything else seems niche and prone to “irritation due to you suddenly became border line useless” factor. In those niches it excels and outside it can be played but will be far more difficult vs the other selections and much more difficult, if not impossible to adapt. Example is a turret build where the group chooses to zerg or an boss with massive aoe. You are reduced to a firearm engineer at best losing a lot of build traits unless you can quickly toggle.

As far as usefulness in a group the “lists” above are a joke. Every dungeon has circumstances that favor a different build on different professions. Ive found situations where an FT eng can dominate and even tank when a warrior or guardian was having issues(ie: igniting mobs through walls and kiting them around pillars or even standing right in front of the mob with an FT using invis, reflect etc and never budging). Ive even seen where using turrets as distractions saves the entire group to get passed a particular hard area.

Are there times when a full group of guardians or warriors is better, or a mix and a mesmer over a engineer better? Absolutely yes but you cant make a blanket statement that in all dungeon circumstances the orderly numbered list of importance applies. This concept of placing importance in numeric fashion on a profession smacks of the same attitude you see on group finding such as “p2 no noobz!” and “p1 exp only!”. That is, elitism and its simply ignorant.

spoj.9672:

Just because that build is pretty good doesn mean it bumps engi to 3rd place lol. Its still 6/7th place.

I typically don’t agree with spoj (at least on the dungeon forum), but after having run several of the professions on the list, this is spot on, as is Infamous’ list, who I run with regularly on my Ele.

I believe someone at one point did the calculation for max DPS on all professions, given equal gear and best DPS builds and Engineer was last or second to last. It really, really shows when you run an engineer for months, pushing the limits of what it can reliably do with gear, sigils, pots, food, etc. and then playing any profession higher on the list.

Balance PvE PLEASE. Split from pvp if you have to, so we can examine without confusion the pve ranking of different professions.

IMO, Engineers and Necros are the best for dungeons. Necros can stack so many conditions AOE it’s crazy! They have a ton of condition removal too! Engies can do all other classes can but it’s so neat that you take up only 1 slot instead of two or more. Warrior shouts are great and guardian support is great. IMO the perfect dungeon group would be:

Voun/Might Engie
Condi Necro
2x Warrior
1x Guardian

Just taking a moment to re-read this entire thread, I think a lot of you need to stop thinking numerically and begin thinking conceptually. You guys toss out a bunch of numbers comparing DPS roles amongst all classes. Lost in all this noise, however, is that you need to have your party constructed a certain way to get that kind of output.

There are six things you ideally want access to in group situations:

1. Area Might
2. Vulnerability
3. Projectile walls/reflects
4. Condition removal
5. Stability
6. Area Stealth (for skipping)

You guys are very much focused on #1 and #2. And for good reason. 25 Vuln/25 Might is what makes a good group a great group. But 25 Vuln and 25 Might against Fire Shaman alone doesn’t make a good fractal group.

You guys are forgetting about #3-6—all of which Engineers can offer, including both #1 and #2. How many classes can actually say that? Where are the Warrior Smoke fields? Can they match the condition removal abilities of Engineers? What about Area Healing? Where are the Water fields in the Axe/Mace + Greatsword combo? Where is their AoE projectile wall? You want to compare Engineers purely on the basis of #1 and #2 and claim that Warriors outperform us, but the fact of the matter is that they very much need the help of #3-6 to stay alive and successfully complete/skip content in dungeons and fractals.

So if you want to talk about dungeon usefulness in Guild Wars 2, talk about dungeon usefulness. Talk about how a 30 Alchemy Engineer matches the Stability management of Stand Your Ground with Toss Elixir B. Talk about how a Bomb Kit Engineer filling their bar with Blast finishers offers significantly more AoE stealth than Mass Invisibility—and on a third of the cooldown!

Talk about how our Elixir Gun, when built around it, can cleanse—on average—1 condition every 2 seconds. If you want to judge the Engineer’s strengths purely on the merits of its damage output, then keep doing it.

Just understand that you’re doing yourself and this community a disservice, because you guys are looking at this completely wrong. Mesmers and Guardians are not a part of the meta because of #1 or #2. Surely they contribute, but they are popular because of their usefulness in #3-6. And any group that has all six of these “ideal” contributions amongst all five members of the group will—if played by satisfactory players—will cruise through PvE content. The individual DPS contributions of each party member are pretty irrelevant at that point. But hey, if you want to argue over who does 10K damage and who does 9K, be my guest.

Just my two cents.

Yes engineer can contribute to all points you mention but they have pretty weak dps compared to other classes and have to maybe sacrifice a bit more to provide those things. If you really need stealth take a thief or just use mesmer stealth. Thief has very good damage so its not a loss, mesmer can cover reflects and condi removal so the bad dmg isnt much of an issue. Engi cant perma reflect like a mesmer and theoretically mesmer can do alot more dps than any other class if all phantasms stay alive. Its the same issue with necro aswell. Points 3-6 can be covered by and engi reasonably well and points 2 and 4 can be covered by necro pretty well. But that doesnt mean they arent the bottom 2 classes. Why take a sub par choice when you can get all 6 points covered with better dps/group dps and better access to that utility? The real kings of pve and ele’s. You have 5 spaces in a group so why take a class with low dps that can cover most of the utility on its own but less reliably, when you can take 2-3 classes that do more dps and cover the same stuff better?

Its pve balance. The same thing happens on the necro forums. People defend their class blindly with very little knowledge of pve mechanics and understanding of the other classes. There is nothing wrong with admitting your favourite class is bad for a certain gametype. Heck if you dont then it will never get fixed.

spoj.9672:

Yes engineer can contribute to all points you mention but they have pretty weak dps compared to other classes and have to maybe sacrifice a bit more to provide those things.

And again you go back to the numbers. The purpose of my post has seem to gone completely over your head.

spoj.9672:

If you really need stealth take a thief or just use mesmer stealth. Thief has very good damage so its not a loss, mesmer can cover reflects and condi removal so the bad dmg isnt much of an issue.

But I’m not a Thief or Mesmer, and no one in my guild looking to complete a dungeon at the moment is a Thief or a Mesmer. What do I do then? Do we just sit around and wait for one to get online? Are you one of those guys who will only do Fractal 48 with two Guardians because you read a post somewhere on Guru or here saying it’s the only way to play? Because that’s exactly what you’re doing here.

You go with what you can get. And the truth of the matter is that the Engineer offers all you need when it comes to stealth with a Smoke field and 5 Blast finishers.

spoj.9672:

Engi cant perma reflect like a mesmer and theoretically mesmer can do alot more dps than any other class if all phantasms stay alive.

You’re talking about two entirely different builds.

spoj.9672:

Its the same issue with necro aswell. Points 3-6 can be covered by and engi reasonably well and points 2 and 4 can be covered by necro pretty well. But that doesnt mean they arent the bottom 2 classes. Why take a sub par choice when you can get all 6 points covered with better dps/group dps and better access to that utility? The real kings of pve and ele’s. You have 5 spaces in a group so why take a class with low dps that can cover most of the utility on its own but less reliably, when you can take 2-3 classes that do more dps and cover the same stuff better?

You say this like the perfectly constructed dungeon group is always on the table. Like you’ll sit there and wait for hours to fill up your SE p2 or Arah p4 run waiting for just the right group to come around.

Sorry, but I don’t buy it. You take the first 5 people to respond to your invitation. And the truth of the matter is that taking an Engineer really solves a lot of problems that other classes outright fail to cover. You agree with me that an Engineer can provide all six necessary things to complete a dungeon in one build and yet you still argue that they’re “sub par.” Sorry, but this just doesn’t make sense to me.

Not every dungeon group you participate in is going to be constructed in the way where 1-6 is covered. Having an Engineer covers them.

spoj.9672:

People defend their class blindly with very little knowledge of pve mechanics and understanding of the other classes. There is nothing wrong with admitting your favourite class is bad for a certain gametype. Heck if you dont then it will never get fixed.

Don’t be rude.

Engineer is not the only class I play. I have an 80 Warrior and an 80 Guardian, and am currently working on maxing out an Elementalist. Both my Warrior and Guardian are outfitted in Berserker/Scholar gear, so I can very easily see how their DPS compares to the Engineer’s.

I’m not defending the Engineer out of favoritism. I’m defending the Engineer because I think you’re wrong.

I have to completely agree with Phineas Poe.

Phineas Poe.3018:

spoj.9672:

Yes engineer can contribute to all points you mention but they have pretty weak dps compared to other classes and have to maybe sacrifice a bit more to provide those things.

And again you go back to the numbers. The purpose of my post has seem to gone completely over your head.

spoj.9672:

If you really need stealth take a thief or just use mesmer stealth. Thief has very good damage so its not a loss, mesmer can cover reflects and condi removal so the bad dmg isnt much of an issue.

But I’m not a Thief or Mesmer, and no one in my guild looking to complete a dungeon at the moment is a Thief or a Mesmer. What do I do then? Do we just sit around and wait for one to get online?

You go with what you can get. And the truth of the matter is that the Engineer offers all you need when it comes to stealth with a Smoke field and 5 Blast finishers.

spoj.9672:

Engi cant perma reflect like a mesmer and theoretically mesmer can do alot more dps than any other class if all phantasms stay alive.

You’re talking about two entirely different builds.

spoj.9672:

Its the same issue with necro aswell. Points 3-6 can be covered by and engi reasonably well and points 2 and 4 can be covered by necro pretty well. But that doesnt mean they arent the bottom 2 classes. Why take a sub par choice when you can get all 6 points covered with better dps/group dps and better access to that utility? The real kings of pve and ele’s. You have 5 spaces in a group so why take a class with low dps that can cover most of the utility on its own but less reliably, when you can take 2-3 classes that do more dps and cover the same stuff better?

You agree with me that an Engineer can provide all six necessary things to complete a dungeon in one build and yet you still argue that they’re “sub par.” Sorry, but this just doesn’t make sense to me.

They’re not sub par, and you’ve already established yourself how they aren’t.

spoj.9672:

People defend their class blindly with very little knowledge of pve mechanics and understanding of the other classes. There is nothing wrong with admitting your favourite class is bad for a certain gametype. Heck if you dont then it will never get fixed.

Don’t be rude.

Engineer is not the only class I play. I have an 80 Warrior and an 80 Guardian, and am currently working on maxing out an Elementalist. Both my Warrior and Guardian are outfitted in Berserker/Scholar gear, so I can very easily see how their DPS compares to the Engineer’s.

I’m not defending the Engineer out of favoritism. I’m defending the Engineer because I think you’re wrong.

Yup, there just not seeing the big picture, not to mention we already had a link with pictures to ONE of many dungeon builds that supply all this versatility and utility and crushes the DPS meters as well. Shame the naysayer’s ether ignore the facts of one and use the other as validation or the other way around, or they just flat out claim ignorance. its quite simple really.

1. War= DPS min max (if you have 3) but no utility.
2. guard= DPS if with the above warriors, supplies might, cleansing reflect walls and other usefull dungeon supprot mechanics.
3. Engineer= Self sufficient DPS . Brings might and vuln stacking, heals, stealth, cleansing, reflect walls and various other Dungeon support mechanics.
4. Ele= tool box. lightning hammer, might stacking, water fields.
5. Mesmer= tool box. time warp. reflects, pulls. situational DPS (IF phantasms can live.)
6. ranger = yet again tool box. spirits. spotter trait.
7. Thief= single target DPS, stealth.
8. Necro= vuln stack, blind.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Just taking a moment to re-read this entire thread, I think a lot of you need to stop thinking numerically and begin thinking conceptually. You guys toss out a bunch of numbers comparing DPS roles amongst all classes. Lost in all this noise, however, is that you need to have your party constructed a certain way to get that kind of output.

There are six things you ideally want access to in group situations:

1. Area Might
2. Vulnerability
3. Projectile walls/reflects
4. Condition removal
5. Stability
6. Area Stealth (for skipping)

You guys are very much focused on #1 and #2. And for good reason. 25 Vuln/25 Might is what makes a good group a great group. But 25 Vuln and 25 Might against Fire Shaman alone doesn’t make a good fractal group.

You guys are forgetting about #3-6—all of which Engineers can offer, including both #1 and #2. How many classes can actually say that? Where are the Warrior Smoke fields? Can they match the condition removal abilities of Engineers? What about Area Healing? Where are the Water fields in the Axe/Mace + Greatsword combo? Where is their AoE projectile wall? You want to compare Engineers purely on the basis of #1 and #2 and claim that Warriors outperform us, but the fact of the matter is that they very much need the help of #3-6 to stay alive and successfully complete/skip content in dungeons and fractals.

So if you want to talk about dungeon usefulness in Guild Wars 2, talk about dungeon usefulness. Talk about how a 30 Alchemy Engineer matches the Stability management of Stand Your Ground with Toss Elixir B. Talk about how a Bomb Kit Engineer filling their bar with Blast finishers offers significantly more AoE stealth than Mass Invisibility—and on a third of the cooldown!

Talk about how our Elixir Gun, when built around it, can cleanse—on average—1 condition every 2 seconds. If you want to judge the Engineer’s strengths purely on the merits of its damage output, then keep doing it.

Just understand that you’re doing yourself and this community a disservice, because you guys are looking at this completely wrong. Mesmers and Guardians are not a part of the meta because of #1 or #2. Surely they contribute, but they are popular because of their usefulness in #3-6. And any group that has all six of these “ideal” contributions amongst all five members of the group will—if played by satisfactory players—will cruise through PvE content. The individual DPS contributions of each party member are pretty irrelevant at that point. But hey, if you want to argue over who does 10K damage and who does 9K, be my guest.

Just my two cents.

you see where people are arguing the most with you isn’t that engineer is a jack of all trades we all know this it is just they are a master of one maybe two
1) might stacking they can do this partially I believe you can get up to 15 stacks alone for the whole group
2) vulnerability the engineers bread and butter with steel packed powder
3) Projectile reflection we aren’t very reliable we have throw elixir U but that can end up being negates incoming projectiles rather than reflects them, we also have shield 4 but it is only a personal projectile reflection
4) condition removal, I would say we are ok with this from heal turret, or if you trait into cleansing formula 409 that you can be pretty decent
5) Stability ok elixir b can be good.
6) area stealth through smoke fields and blast finisher

classes that are better at these things then us
1) s/d eles can provide 25 stacks of might plus permanent fury for the group
2) (think engineer is the best here)
3) Mesmer can keep projectile reflections up all the time and guardians reflections are more reliable.
4) also an area that engineers can be good in just that yet again mesmers and guardians can do it a bit better (guardian soldier runes and shouts, Mesmer null field)
5) guardians have us beat here to through stand your ground and hallowed ground
6) thieves have us beat here their shadow refuge can be dropped on the move while our stealth cannot

This is not to say we are useless in dungeons just that for an optimal setup we probably aren’t the best to take along, my guess for an optimal dungeon setup would have been 2 eles, 1 warrior (banners), 1 Mesmer, and one open spot depending on the dungeon may want a guard for prot, extra reflects, and stability, or a ranger for their spotter trait vulnerability and frost spirit (can also do protection through earth spirit thing), theif for more continuous stealth then the Mesmer can provide, or us the engineer for vulnerability application.

all of this being said I think we great for pug dungeons because these things wont be coordinated and as an engineer (jack of all trades) we can help in many areas.

I cant believe you took offense from my post. Shows you are completely biased towards engi. You missed my point entirely. Yes engi can contribute to those points but it doesnt do it nearly well enough along with good dps to be balanced with most other classes in pve. My point was that both necro and engi are sub par in pve and thats a pve balance issue.

Im honestly baffled why you people get so defensive. I wasnt rude at all and I re-read my post and I cant work out what you found rude.

ps. Just a personal opinion of mine. If you dont fully understand all 8 classes in pve then I dont regard you as experienced and will consider your views on pve balance inaccurate/biased. Engi and ranger are the 2 classes im least experienced with but ive done enough research to know what they are capable of regarding the pve meta. Reading the posts above has been beneficial to me in understanding engi better but despite that it doesnt change its ranking imo.

Singer.8740:

Yup, there just not seeing the big picture, not to mention we already had a link with pictures to ONE of many dungeon builds that supply all this versatility and utility and crushes the DPS meters as well. Shame the naysayer’s ether ignore the facts of one and use the other as validation or the other way around, or they just flat out claim ignorance. its quite simple really.

1. War= DPS min max (if you have 3) but no utility.
2. guard= DPS if with the above warriors, supplies might, cleansing reflect walls and other usefull dungeon supprot mechanics.
3. Engineer= Self sufficient DPS . Brings might and vuln stacking, heals, stealth, cleansing, reflect walls and various other Dungeon support mechanics.
4. Ele= tool box. lightning hammer, might stacking, water fields.
5. Mesmer= tool box. time warp. reflects, pulls. situational DPS (IF phantasms can live.)
6. ranger = yet again tool box. spirits. spotter trait.
7. Thief= single target DPS, stealth.
8. Necro= vuln stack, blind.

Id have to say your list here is quite off for a few reasons
1) ele if using fiery rush from FGS #4 without a target and FGS#3 plus LH when on cooldown they will likely be the highest dps in your party by quite a margin, not to mention their ability to stack 25 might for the group and perma fury I think they deserve #1or 2 spot.
2) warrior brings quite a lot of utility to the group actually using GS,A/M banners and able to stack somewhere between 18-22stacks of vulnerability on their own for a short time, also able to create fire fields(wouldn’t suggest it but still there and able to blast them), also if using soldier runes can cleanse about the same number of conditions as the engineer (with a different build from the one above that would be using banners and “on my mark”) also can take trait empower allies for more power for the group
3) I feel that you are selling rangers a bit short as they can provide ok vunerability, stone spirit for protection, frost spirit for extra damage, spirit of nature for a group res, and I believe the longest lasting water field through their healing spring, and condition cleanse, they can also bring might and fury stacking to the party through their pets and warhorn.
4) Mesmers can also provide a decent amount of vulnerability, and condition removal
5) thieves can also provide some good defiant removal(if that’s what you want), can also provide, can give party members might fury swiftness and vigor (through steal skill)

spoj.9672:

Im honestly baffled why you people get so defensive. I wasnt rude at all and I re-read my post and I cant work out what you found rude.

You said “people defend their class blindly with very little knowledge of pve mechanics and understanding of the other classes.”

I guess I misinterpreted what you said and should have seen it as, I don’t know, a compliment?