Guild Wars 2

there forums -_- bug out alot

leftharted.7102:

Heh, excuse me if im being blunt but… No…

i answered your question…. and your repsonse was to disregard the fact that we have alot more things to do than strictly DPS…. and you want me to tell you that you are right, DPS is king…

well, then… Yes….. you are right, Tigger. If you disregard all traits and all utility skills any class can do, then DPS is ALL that matters!!!! Woot!…… But, yuh know… when you stick all that back into the equation, then my list for you is still looking pretty solid in my opinion. Care to elaborate?

or am i understanding you wrong?

You want the equations? I can provide but you will have to have them in Google doc because you can’t post excel here.

No one really seem interested in me doing excel documents of dps. It takes a long time (Took me 4 hours to do warrior alone)
So i never really bothered.

Mell.4873:

Using the 3 grenade build you attain 3x most other weapon dps.

Were you an accountant at Enron by any chance?

Heh your math is very wrong but it’s true grenades are probably the highest DPS weapon in the game right now. Especially if you count in grenade barrage as part of grenades.

Mif.3471:

Mell.4873:

Using the 3 grenade build you attain 3x most other weapon dps.

Were you an accountant at Enron by any chance?

Warrior
Bow 282.6666667
Rifle 206.6666667
Eng
Pistol 236
Grenade 978

Most melee is 2x
i never included bleed because grenades have about the same.

How i work this out is by the tool tip. 163 this is the damage for each grenade times that by 3 to get 489. Now it says 0.5 seconds to cast but it’s about double that. But it’s hard to test this because how do i know the numbers above it head are correct and timing is to. So i just go with it. Everyone weapon is same.
so 489*2 = 978.
As far as i can tell this is also the fastest attack in the game in terms of per projectile.

Yukishiro.8792:

Heh your math is very wrong but it’s true grenades are probably the highest DPS weapon in the game right now. Especially if you count in grenade barrage as part of grenades.

You never consider something with a 30cd becouse it has little to no impact on the bigger picture

I will say grenades are bad when leveling the high dps is only really acheived at end game not at low levels it is high dps still but without crit and 3rd grenade its kinda useless.

Mell.4873:

Mif.3471:

Mell.4873:

Using the 3 grenade build you attain 3x most other weapon dps.

Were you an accountant at Enron by any chance?

Warrior
Bow 282.6666667
Rifle 206.6666667
Eng
Pistol 236
Grenade 978

Most melee is 2x
i never included bleed because grenades have about the same.

How i work this out is by the tool tip. 163 this is the damage for each grenade times that by 3 to get 489. Now it says 0.5 seconds to cast but it’s about double that. But it’s hard to test this because how do i know the numbers above it head are correct and timing is to. So i just go with it. Everyone weapon is same.
so 489*2 = 978.
As far as i can tell this is also the fastest attack in the game in terms of per projectile.

Read post, did double take. See bolded parts. When someone tells me a Rifle Warrior does less damage than a Pistol engineer…well…….lol. Something definitely be wrong with them there numbers.

Also, on your ….let’s call them “views”… on toughness….yeah…they’re wrong. And I’ll even give you away to prove it to yourself in 5 easy steps.
Step 1: Take your best glass cannon build into the heart of the mists.
Step 2: Solo queue for a free tourney.
Step 3: Go to a point, meet a bunker guardian, bunker engineer, or bunker ele.
Step 4: Loose.
Step 5: Repeat steps 3 and 4 ad nauseum.

So much hyperbole.

Factually inaccurate “proof”.

How did this guy get 2 pages of replies?

Mell.4873:

Eng
Pistol 236
Grenade 978

Um…. pistols do condition damage over time.
The number that pops up when you hit someone isn’t the total damage they deal.

Silentsins.3726:

So much hyperbole.

Factually inaccurate “proof”.

How did this guy get 2 pages of replies?

I’ll just leave this here.
http://xkcd.com/386/

Silentsins.3726:

So much hyperbole.

Factually inaccurate “proof”.

How did this guy get 2 pages of replies?

I figured it out!!

PotatoOverdose.6583:

Mell.4873:

Mif.3471:

Mell.4873:

Using the 3 grenade build you attain 3x most other weapon dps.

Were you an accountant at Enron by any chance?

Warrior
Bow 282.6666667
Rifle 206.6666667
Eng
Pistol 236
Grenade 978

Most melee is 2x
i never included bleed because grenades have about the same.

How i work this out is by the tool tip. 163 this is the damage for each grenade times that by 3 to get 489. Now it says 0.5 seconds to cast but it’s about double that. But it’s hard to test this because how do i know the numbers above it head are correct and timing is to. So i just go with it. Everyone weapon is same.
so 489*2 = 978.
As far as i can tell this is also the fastest attack in the game in terms of per projectile.

Read post, did double take. See bolded parts. When someone tells me a Rifle Warrior does less damage than a Pistol engineer…well…….lol. Something definitely be wrong with them there numbers.

Also, on your ….let’s call them “views”… on toughness….yeah…they’re wrong. And I’ll even give you away to prove it to yourself in 5 easy steps.
Step 1: Take your best glass cannon build into the heart of the mists.
Step 2: Solo queue for a free tourney.
Step 3: Go to a point, meet a bunker guardian, bunker engineer, or bunker ele.
Step 4: Loose.
Step 5: Repeat steps 3 and 4 ad nauseum.

I really mean toughness in general is bad. You shouldn’t run it wvw. spvp is a lot different and I don’t think it a good aspect of the game to base any character off.
The rifle thing is another myth about the warrior. The dps is pretty bad, really the only thing it does is bleed. This can be stacked to about 15. Similarly the grenade can be stacked to about 10 maybe more.

You could stop taking my word for it and test it. I see alot of people saying im wrong but just test it.

Mif.3471:

Mell.4873:

Eng
Pistol 236
Grenade 978

Um…. pistols do condition damage over time.
The number that pops up when you hit someone isn’t the total damage they deal.

i wont count conditional damage becouse they both do it. i could work it out but it really depends on how you build it. grenade has a 5 cd bleed that stack 3 for 12 seconds.

I do this to probe the community. It seems I’m not wanted. People just want to blindly follow big numbers. I work out what does the most damage or is better or worse. I tell people but they don’t want to hear it seems.
FACT it is the highest dps outside of cond. make a eng go into pvp get 3 grenade build at see how fast u can take down dummies.

Mell.4873:

I really mean toughness in general is bad. You shouldn’t to run it wvw. spvp is a lot different and I don’t think it a good aspect of the game to base any character off.
The rifle thing is another myth about the warrior.

Toughness mitigates a very good amount of damage. I feel your giving very bad advice. Every 2 points in toughness mitigates more damage then 3 points in vitality can absorb. (it is actually a little more then that, but for the sake of convenience we will call it 2 to 3)

So it is great, as long as you have the condition removal to handle the condition, which toughness does not mitigate what so ever.

Mell.4873:

I do this to probe the community. It seems I’m not wanted. People just want to blindly follow big numbers. I work out what does the most damage or is better or worse. I tell people but they don’t want to hear it seems.
FACT it is the highest dps outside of cond. make a eng go into pvp get 3 grenade build at see how fast u can take down dummies.

I disagree. To me, it is weak players who think inside a very limited box that look at it like this. I love those players, they tend to be vulnerable to my flexable builds and play style that tends to work outside the box. They can have all of the “high” DPS they want. It does little to aid them while they are downed and I am stomping them in WvW.

coglin.1496:

Mell.4873:

I really mean toughness in general is bad. You shouldn’t to run it wvw. spvp is a lot different and I don’t think it a good aspect of the game to base any character off.
The rifle thing is another myth about the warrior.

Toughness mitigates a very good amount of damage. I feel your giving very bad advice. Every 2 points in toughness mitigates more damage then 3 points in vitality can absorb. (it is actually a little more then that, but for the sake of convenience we will call it 2 to 3)

So it is great, as long as you have the condition removal to handle the condition, which toughness does not mitigate what so ever.

Mell.4873:

I do this to probe the community. It seems I’m not wanted. People just want to blindly follow big numbers. I work out what does the most damage or is better or worse. I tell people but they don’t want to hear it seems.
FACT it is the highest dps outside of cond. make a eng go into pvp get 3 grenade build at see how fast u can take down dummies.

I disagree. To me, it is weak players who think inside a very limited box that look at it like this. I love those players, they tend to be vulnerable to my flexable builds and play style that tends to work outside the box. They can have all of the “high” DPS they want. It does little to aid them while they are downed and I am stomping them in WvW.

I honestly don’t want to open the toughness can of worms. I basically just stumbled along and found the grenade build awesome damage and now have a lvl 80 lol

I find it funny, the “conditions!” people are the ones defending toughness.

toughness is very weak. much like +healing. You need a certain level to stay alive of course. if you trait down a toughness line, do not spend any on gear.
If, wvw, do not invest in any. Spvp. 200 is probably enough.
Survival comes from hard evasion. dodge, stealth, stability, protection, reflect, block, blind, stun, knockback/down. chill. cleansing of CC. All of these things negate taking any damage at all.
Some, when used offensively, allow application of damage without having to worry about getting hit back. when you can someone flatfooted, you need to focus fire and kill them.

Mit wins duels, where there is only 1v1, and sustain counts. in anything larger, focus fire and damage avoidance will win. Reducing our damage by 3% won’t save you. In a teamwork situation offense will win over defense. Again, because there are no stat related damage avoidance. why do I need toughness with supply drop stun, elixir R dodge/stun break. rifle net, rifle kd? This is my wvw, where I don’t run alone, and still. only a burst theif can drop me 1v1, where I dont have enough reliable CC’s for solo. But even in an Spvp situation, why would I be solo? its not a free for all. I might drop B and take net turret for its toolbelt, and turret net, if I were to go pick up spvp.

Casia.4281:

I find it funny, the “conditions!” people are the ones defending toughness.

toughness is very weak. much like +healing.

In order to keep this discussion productive we should try a couple of things (I know it’s the internet, but I have faith in all of us ):

) Provide evidence of our opinions, assuming your experience is indicative of all experiences is a fallacy.

) Make an attempt to be unbiased.

What fact do you have to claim the damage mitigation of toughness is weak? Do you even know the mitigation equation of toughness at various levels of opponents power? i doubt it, yet you still make claims. That is not a very reasonable thought process to do such a thing.

80 eng here.

I honestly thought the Flamethrower kit was the highest DPS weapon for Engineers…

As for highest DPS in the game? I think that title really belongs to Thieves.

Everyone in this thread saying toughness isn’t worth it in WvW is plain wrong.

Mell.4873:

I really mean toughness in general is bad. You shouldn’t run it wvw. spvp is a lot different and I don’t think it a good aspect of the game to base any character off.
The rifle thing is another myth about the warrior.

Casia.4281:

I find it funny, the “conditions!” people are the ones defending toughness.

toughness is very weak. much like +healing. You need a certain level to stay alive of course. if you trait down a toughness line, do not spend any on gear.
If, wvw, do not invest in any. Spvp. 200 is probably enough.
Survival comes from hard evasion. dodge, stealth, stability, protection, reflect, block, blind, stun, knockback/down. chill. cleansing of CC. All of these things negate taking any damage at all.
Some, when used offensively, allow application of damage without having to worry about getting hit back. when you can someone flatfooted, you need to focus fire and kill them.

Mit wins duels, where there is only 1v1, and sustain counts. in anything larger, focus fire and damage avoidance will win. Reducing our damage by 3% won’t save you. In a teamwork situation offense will win over defense. Again, because there are no stat related damage avoidance. why do I need toughness with supply drop stun, elixir R dodge/stun break. rifle net, rifle kd? This is my wvw, where I don’t run alone, and still. only a burst theif can drop me 1v1, where I dont have enough reliable CC’s for solo. But even in an Spvp situation, why would I be solo? its not a free for all. I might drop B and take net turret for its toolbelt, and turret net, if I were to go pick up spvp.

I think I see the problem here. I think Casia and Mell should post videos of exactly how they play wvw as they obviously don’t spvp. I have the sneaking suspicion that these two spend 100% of their time with the zerg where they are carried by other players.

Lets be honest here. It doesn’t really matter what class or build you zerg with. If you’re in 20-50 man zerg it doesn’t matter what weapon you use, you’ll be fine until you
a) encounter a larger zerg
b) encounter a more organized zerg
c) encounter lots of well placed siege.

PotatoOverdose.6583:

Mell.4873:

I really mean toughness in general is bad. You shouldn’t run it wvw. spvp is a lot different and I don’t think it a good aspect of the game to base any character off.
The rifle thing is another myth about the warrior.

Casia.4281:

I find it funny, the “conditions!” people are the ones defending toughness.

toughness is very weak. much like +healing. You need a certain level to stay alive of course. if you trait down a toughness line, do not spend any on gear.
If, wvw, do not invest in any. Spvp. 200 is probably enough.
Survival comes from hard evasion. dodge, stealth, stability, protection, reflect, block, blind, stun, knockback/down. chill. cleansing of CC. All of these things negate taking any damage at all.
Some, when used offensively, allow application of damage without having to worry about getting hit back. when you can someone flatfooted, you need to focus fire and kill them.

Mit wins duels, where there is only 1v1, and sustain counts. in anything larger, focus fire and damage avoidance will win. Reducing our damage by 3% won’t save you. In a teamwork situation offense will win over defense. Again, because there are no stat related damage avoidance. why do I need toughness with supply drop stun, elixir R dodge/stun break. rifle net, rifle kd? This is my wvw, where I don’t run alone, and still. only a burst theif can drop me 1v1, where I dont have enough reliable CC’s for solo. But even in an Spvp situation, why would I be solo? its not a free for all. I might drop B and take net turret for its toolbelt, and turret net, if I were to go pick up spvp.

I think I see the problem here. I think Casia and Mell should post videos of exactly how they play wvw as they obviously don’t spvp. I have the sneaking suspicion that these two spend 100% of their time with the zerg where they are carried by other players.

Lets be honest here. It doesn’t really matter what class or build you zerg with. If you’re in 20-50 man zerg it doesn’t matter what weapon you use, you’ll be fine until you
a) encounter a larger zerg
b) encounter a more organized zerg
c) encounter lots of well placed siege.

This is true. But, even if you are running with 20+ how are you going to survive a portal bomb? You need toughness/vitality to bomb properly and to survive a bomb. Either that or there people are all playing on servers that haven’t developed the same meta as the top WvW servers.

The better the survivablility the more kills, more damage, more defense, more badges.

I speak from experience here. I was full ranged glass cannon grenadier. Even traiting for survivability and defense I would have to pull out of combat too often to heal up. If I was focused I was dead in 2 seconds or less. Now, I’ve equiped for Toughness/Vitality with Vigil Armor and full Dolyak Runes. I almost never have to pull out of combat. I can 1v3 or 1v4 for extended periods to hold points while waiting for backup. Even if focused I’m good for 7+ seconds before I have to pull out.

There is one other important point to make here. If you were tagged by a number of enemy players who then are killed by teammates, and then you yourself go down, you just rallied 4,5, or 6 players who otherwise were taken out of the fight. I can’t tell you the number of times a keep defense would have been successful if the glass canon build hadn’t rallied the enemy over and over and over.

I played around with grenade barrage and different builds on Golems in the mist and saw that – unless the Golem wasn´t exactly in the middle of the green targeting-circle – usually only 4 of the 6 grenades where hitting. Which makes this even more poor theory-crafting.

Samnang,
no its the worst. Flamethrowers damage over time is pretty terrible.
Its 2.5s per cast. I know it says 2.25, but go time it. there is a delay between each attack. Most have this delay that needs to be added to dps.
Example. pistols says .5s, rifle .75. Both seem to be closer to .8 or .9. I get 24 attacks in 20s.
FT is 1.43 scaling off 969 weapon kit every 2.5s. .572/s. Burn for 1s, every 2.5s.
pistol 1 with coated bullets is definately higher then that. p1 without is close. But then you have blowtorch/pdv/static shot as well.
FT2 scales well. .715 and 1.67 High. But doesn’t really make up for how low FT1 is. especially solo, where 2 doesnt always hit.

others,
How my times do I need to post math? mell has posted some numbers as well.
Sometimes its wrong, and needs to be updated with new observations of behavior.
If you think the math is wrong, prove it.

the topic is, highest dps. Granted that is a loaded term itself.
what is dps?
5min duration vs pve boss that barely moves?
20s duration in a pvp situation where you hit one target for 5-10s, then swap to another?
6-10s duration in pvp situation vs 1 player?
Burst is 0-6s usually. and not the topic.

Mell said, 30s abilities don’t count. I don’t agree. many abilites have longer cd’s like that. and they are very relevant to any of the above metrics. At 5 min, its periodic.
At 20s, you get one use of those big CD moves, even ones up to 60s. Front loading.
Cause really, you can’t take timewarp out of the equation entirely, for example and other things of that nature. It will have a massive effect on dps, and needs to be considered. Asterisk or not in 10-20s duration factoring.

In a pve situation grenades wins by a landslide. stacking vulx6 for 6.3s every throw, without any addition +cond duration. 1s cast time, 18 stacks of vul by yourself. 18% damage increase for everyone attacking the target within 6s of starting. (precise sights, can let you stack 25 vul by yourself with ease within 6s)
Raw damage scaling.
I just said ft is .572/s right? 1 grenade1 is .478. You throw 2. .956. with grenadier you throw 3. 1.434 per second scaling.
3 hits per second. x3 chance to proc sharpshooter bleed.
shrapnel is hilariously overpowered. 4s cd. it scales even better then g1 directly at .524 each, or 1.57 AND 3 12s(15.5s by default with 30 in explosives) bleeds.
Ive talked about how conditions are not very good. but again, shrapnel scales at 2.25 condition damage per throw. lol. 15s duration, 4s recast. 12stacks of bleed without any additional +duration. This means shrapnel scales ridiculously well with might. due to its +cond damage and +power. (as well as orbs, etc.)

20s interval g1 really shines. Again, it scales so much on 1 and 2, that you can blow up one target, swap to another, and blow them up. Grenade carpet bombing. No one else can do this. an elementalist aoe has longer cooldowns attached. Lava fonts are tied to the ground at 5s cds, meteor shower 25s cd. Engi can spam grenades all day long, carpet bombing location after location on the move.

6-10s. Barrage/shrapnel are good. weapon swap to/from rifle for its burst as well. Again, its more the steady damage. Others can burst in this time frame with time stops, meteors, 100 blades, etc.

Application. its a team game. Seriously I am not going to devolve into breaking down how to play as a team. Use common sense. Yes, I am going to die to a thief 1v1 90% of the time. I will win every other fight every time, working with an ally. that is how teamwork works.

You survive portal bombs via scouts, not toughness. And if by magic they do get to you, supply drop, feedback, GRENADES raw dps will win the day.
Toughness will not stop focus fire from 20 players. Reflect, stability, boon stripping, knockdowns will. And to point it out. Neither will conditions, which will be instantly removed in a pack like that.

Grenades are spells. Every spell has “aftercast” like in GW1. So if u cast a spell – like grenades – u will have 1/4 sec aftercast. Finaly, greandes hit every 0,75 sec, not every 0,5 sec – but the first time dmg will trigger after 0,5 sec.

Found grenade recast closer to 1s.
Rifle/pistol/elixir are .8-.9s
23-24 shots in 20s. .87-.83s attack speed
It could be .85s recast on grenades, with that .15s coming from having to manually spam and latency.

leftharted.7102:

Heh, excuse me if im being blunt but… No…

i answered your question…. and your repsonse was to disregard the fact that we have alot more things to do than strictly DPS…. and you want me to tell you that you are right, DPS is king…

well, then… Yes….. you are right, Tigger. If you disregard all traits and all utility skills any class can do, then DPS is ALL that matters!!!! Woot!…… But, yuh know… when you stick all that back into the equation, then my list for you is still looking pretty solid in my opinion. Care to elaborate?

or am i understanding you wrong?

leftharted.7102:

okay! here’s a brief synopsis

Exploit range and/or line of sight when choosing target, OR when you hav been chosen as a target.

dodge / block / blind /stun break before or directly after any attack of any nature in which you should avoid getting hit with…. while simultaneously executing your own attacks, and trying to recognize when your target may blind / block / dodge / break / LoS counter you.

this is why Skill, and not DPS, solely effects the outcome of all encounters…

a group that can effectively negate damage better while sustaining DPS (which EVERY class, in EVERY proff. has some DPS with secondary effects to contribute) will do much better than any group or individual who Only factors DPS…

sheer DPS doesn’t win fights. Strategy does, and Strategy does not Require maximized DPS, only sustainable. Which, Everyone can do……

to much DPS sacrifices support/utility, to much support/utility sacrifices DPS. the answer is always to find a balance. Maximizing on one or the other is never the answer… unless you are teamed with someone covering the other bases, meaning you are using Strategy, and Neither person is useless…. Concluding the fact that, DPS is not the only factor of Any game. you must find balance, with a build that suites your style. if a high DPS bursty build suites your style, then Good!! but that does not mean that any other way isnt effective, it simply means You aren’t effective in that ‘way’.

im obviously being vague, because your only response was “well make a list then!”

so i made it short and sweet…

1. Rock -> Scissors.
2. Scissors -> Paper.
3. Paper -> Rock.

someone help. where is the bold in the first quote in his post underneath it, and how is this dude speaking for all professions in his post without being general as hell and theory crafting out of the kitten

Also, how is what I posted in response to the post underneath “removing” things from his post when he didn’t even include it BECAUSE he’s being general as hell?

Someone explain.

You are wrong. Period.

Forestnator.6298:

Grenades are spells. Every spell has “aftercast” like in GW1. So if u cast a spell – like grenades – u will have 1/4 sec aftercast. Finaly, greandes hit every 0,75 sec, not every 0,5 sec – but the first time dmg will trigger after 0,5 sec.

This what everyone seems to be forgetting. Everyone acts as if grenades somehow work different then other AoE sets such as eles or necros staff. They have just as much delay as we do. The leave the same red circle we do. The are just as easy or difficult to dodge as ours is.

Everyone all over the engineer forums post as if it is just us, and grenades are individually poor in this respect. Not true. It is game design that offers the counter to it, just like every other thing in the game.

Tigger, i think your asking for ‘someone to explain’ because you arent trying to look at it from another point of view… all i would like is for the community to coincide and understand that all builds Have strengths and Weaknesses, that are NOT soley determined by damage done… thats all…

i apologize if ive come off as too brash, but bro, its justa game. i Really dont care all that much, i scan the forums while im at work and try to support ‘build freedom’ … nobody should tell Anyone that a certain build or playstyle is ‘ineffective’ because thats always a biased opinion… you should only give your own opinion of strengths and weaknesses, and let people adapt in their own way, to find their own build…

i guess im arguing/fighting for equality….. showing the ‘math’ for any ability doesnt account for any situation other than fighting the freeking practice golems…. sure one ability may be 21.48645673 times better than another, but that doesnt factor dodges / blind / blocks / range / LoS / touchness-vit, boons… Everything…. meaning the only ability that matters is one that the player times properly and doesnt get negated…

Example??
a condition spec with high toughness, and stun breaks
vs
a power/crit build with high toughness, but no/little condition removal

assuming both dodge/blind/block consistently, the condition spec will be doing comparable damage, and sustain it, while the power spec, is still semi bursty, but much less than normal due to the high toughness on the cond. spec… therefore, the condition spec is doing more damage, because even if half of their abilities miss, they have considerable damage over time happening, whereas if the power/crit build misses half their abilities, their ‘rotation’ only did half of what they ‘did the math’ for…

this is only one of Thoussands of sitauations… their are hundreds of scenarios where every spec can be the Best, or the Worst…. everyone CAN be viable. their is no cookie cutter build of all builds.

TL;DR

I see it from your point a view. But what you aren’t seeing is that there is no such thing as perfect balance in MMO’s and there will always be things (Gimmicks, cheese strats, Gear Gap, etc) that certain classes or in this game professions will never be able to deal with. Targetted skills also fall into this because you can only dodge 2 times, and not every profession has the abilities and/or move slots to handle this. (ex. Heartseeker spam, Hundred blade spam)

That is what mmo delusion is. The fact that you think skill will always win in the end against EVERYTHING when in reality that’s half the case.

Like I said.

MMO pvp rarely if ever makes it into esports for a reason, and this is why

even MMO fighters like Rumble Fighter are victim to this.

Also Im not even apart of this weird DPS math going on here. I play flamethrower tank spec

only dodge 2 times in one bar… what about endurance on heal, or utilities that restore endurance… or having high endurance regen… ‘only 2’ would mean no more than 5 seconds of fighting….

and your right, there are and have always been Gimicks or Gaps preventing balance, but this is the First MMO with balance in mind, and they Are making changes to further balance….. and any Profession can deal with anything thrown at them IF they are specialized for it. IE, rock paper scissors…

skill doesnt Always matter, your right, but it is still Always a factor…. strict math negates Skill. numbers dont count on your target being skillful, and out-smarting you… so, on the contrary, i believe it is You who has ‘mmo delusion’ …

(also, you shouldnt put TL;DR if you did in fact read it, and then reply to it… thats facetious)

and again you speak generally when not every profession has access to those utilities/access while having everything else they need on the same bar

also I skimmed, I didn’t read. Luckily you’re a person who uses actual paragraphs and doesn’t slap a wall of text in someones face.

glad we have an understanding

well, in my opinion, i Have to speak generally.. because it is up to each individual player to slot the utilities they plan on using…. for example, i personally always slot our stun breakers, and i love (forgot the name..) the one that refills endurance…. when timed and used properly, i mitigate bursts, and then have the upper hand…. sometimes i fumble, sometimes i dont.. this is all decided by my skill level…

Skill constitutes knowing what utilities will be more beneficial than others, and at what time to use them…. so if someone gets ‘countered’ because they slotted other utilities, doesnt mean their build is subpar, or they need to ‘l2p’ .. it means their build has a weakness that was exploited… All builds have some sort of weakness, and strength…
and a skillful player can recognize these, and exploit them, but never, Ever, is their a master combo or build to rule them all….

And! thank You =p i admit, at times (like all of us humans) i can get ‘too’ breathy, but i try to stagger it into paragraphs so that it can be quickly deciphered =)

Casia.4281:

I find it funny, the “conditions!” people are the ones defending toughness.

toughness is very weak. much like +healing. You need a certain level to stay alive of course. if you trait down a toughness line, do not spend any on gear.
If, wvw, do not invest in any. Spvp. 200 is probably enough.
Survival comes from hard evasion. dodge, stealth, stability, protection, reflect, block, blind, stun, knockback/down. chill. cleansing of CC. All of these things negate taking any damage at all.
Some, when used offensively, allow application of damage without having to worry about getting hit back. when you can someone flatfooted, you need to focus fire and kill them.

Mit wins duels, where there is only 1v1, and sustain counts. in anything larger, focus fire and damage avoidance will win. Reducing our damage by 3% won’t save you. In a teamwork situation offense will win over defense. Again, because there are no stat related damage avoidance. why do I need toughness with supply drop stun, elixir R dodge/stun break. rifle net, rifle kd? This is my wvw, where I don’t run alone, and still. only a burst theif can drop me 1v1, where I dont have enough reliable CC’s for solo. But even in an Spvp situation, why would I be solo? its not a free for all. I might drop B and take net turret for its toolbelt, and turret net, if I were to go pick up spvp.

You 100% right. You basically have to have toughness in a power to toughness ratio.
The maths behind toughness all though simple is really hard to work out when used practical. From what i recall we all have 60% reduction at lvl 80 and only increases by 20% if we get like 3k+

coglin.1496:

Casia.4281:

I find it funny, the “conditions!” people are the ones defending toughness.

toughness is very weak. much like +healing.

In order to keep this discussion productive we should try a couple of things (I know it’s the internet, but I have faith in all of us ):

) Provide evidence of our opinions, assuming your experience is indicative of all experiences is a fallacy.

) Make an attempt to be unbiased.

What fact do you have to claim the damage mitigation of toughness is weak? Do you even know the mitigation equation of toughness at various levels of opponents power? i doubt it, yet you still make claims. That is not a very reasonable thought process to do such a thing.

yes i have spreadsheets working it out. but the problem arises when you attack does more damage. you basically mitigate more when you have more toughness.
So more attacks over big attacks.

PotatoOverdose.6583:

Mell.4873:

I really mean toughness in general is bad. You shouldn’t run it wvw. spvp is a lot different and I don’t think it a good aspect of the game to base any character off.
The rifle thing is another myth about the warrior.

Casia.4281:

I find it funny, the “conditions!” people are the ones defending toughness.

toughness is very weak. much like +healing. You need a certain level to stay alive of course. if you trait down a toughness line, do not spend any on gear.
If, wvw, do not invest in any. Spvp. 200 is probably enough.
Survival comes from hard evasion. dodge, stealth, stability, protection, reflect, block, blind, stun, knockback/down. chill. cleansing of CC. All of these things negate taking any damage at all.
Some, when used offensively, allow application of damage without having to worry about getting hit back. when you can someone flatfooted, you need to focus fire and kill them.

Mit wins duels, where there is only 1v1, and sustain counts. in anything larger, focus fire and damage avoidance will win. Reducing our damage by 3% won’t save you. In a teamwork situation offense will win over defense. Again, because there are no stat related damage avoidance. why do I need toughness with supply drop stun, elixir R dodge/stun break. rifle net, rifle kd? This is my wvw, where I don’t run alone, and still. only a burst theif can drop me 1v1, where I dont have enough reliable CC’s for solo. But even in an Spvp situation, why would I be solo? its not a free for all. I might drop B and take net turret for its toolbelt, and turret net, if I were to go pick up spvp.

I think I see the problem here. I think Casia and Mell should post videos of exactly how they play wvw as they obviously don’t spvp. I have the sneaking suspicion that these two spend 100% of their time with the zerg where they are carried by other players.

Lets be honest here. It doesn’t really matter what class or build you zerg with. If you’re in 20-50 man zerg it doesn’t matter what weapon you use, you’ll be fine until you
a) encounter a larger zerg
b) encounter a more organized zerg
c) encounter lots of well placed siege.

so true. but if i can aoe the kitten out of there zerg im better off.

Casia.4281:

Found grenade recast closer to 1s.
Rifle/pistol/elixir are .8-.9s
23-24 shots in 20s. .87-.83s attack speed
It could be .85s recast on grenades, with that .15s coming from having to manually spam and latency.

yeah you can just about double every cast time. but it isn’t relevant because its universal and we have no clue of the numbers are correct.

hydeaut.1758:

I played around with grenade barrage and different builds on Golems in the mist and saw that – unless the Golem wasn´t exactly in the middle of the green targeting-circle – usually only 4 of the 6 grenades where hitting. Which makes this even more poor theory-crafting.

i don’t account for missing. but if you hit 100% of the time it best dps in game.

Mell.4873:

hydeaut.1758:

I played around with grenade barrage and different builds on Golems in the mist and saw that – unless the Golem wasn´t exactly in the middle of the green targeting-circle – usually only 4 of the 6 grenades where hitting. Which makes this even more poor theory-crafting.

i don’t account for missing. but if you hit 100% of the time it best dps in game.

That’s self-evident. However, the fact that Grenades are slow and have an unpredictable spread are in itself a hindrance.

Wow it an all out war now lol. my other topic about how hundred blades is in most cases useless never got this much attention

Mell.4873:

coglin.1496:

Casia.4281:

I find it funny, the “conditions!” people are the ones defending toughness.

toughness is very weak. much like +healing.

In order to keep this discussion productive we should try a couple of things (I know it’s the internet, but I have faith in all of us ):

) Provide evidence of our opinions, assuming your experience is indicative of all experiences is a fallacy.

) Make an attempt to be unbiased.

What fact do you have to claim the damage mitigation of toughness is weak? Do you even know the mitigation equation of toughness at various levels of opponents power? i doubt it, yet you still make claims. That is not a very reasonable thought process to do such a thing.

yes i have spreadsheets working it out. but the problem arises when you attack does more damage. you basically mitigate more when you have more toughness.
So more attacks over big attacks.

What? its a %.
two attacks for 500 will do the same as 1 for 1000 vs lets say 500 toughness, 1000armor.
Changing the 500/1000damage to power and simple weapon/skill numbers for easy viewing.
.5skill*1000weapon*1000power/1500=333.
.5skill*1000weapon*500power/1500=167 × 2 hits=333.

Toughness negates power in a 1 to 1 ratio.
The reason why toughness is not recommended, is because the equation doesn’t quite end there.
We have crit, we have conditions, we have evasion/avoidance, and we have focus fire.
Not having power, compromises your ability to kill other targets. Especially other high toughness ones. 1000 power vs 1000 toughness/armor
.5skill*1000weapon*1000power/1000=500
1500 power vs 1500 toughness
.5skill*1000weapon*1500power/1500=500

Power builds can avoid damage altogether. what options do toughness have for killing someone?
1000 power vs 1500 toughness.
.5skill*1000weapon*1000power/1500=333
Your mit based defense can be penetrated with conditions. you don’t have the offense to focus fire in team play.

Basically, you just want enough toughness to not get burst down. Evasion, heals, etc will do the rest, while you need the firepower to kill.

Engineer is highest dps on beached whales.

Casia.4281:

What? its a %.
two attacks for 500 will do the same as 1 for 1000 vs lets say 500 toughness, 1000armor.
Changing the 500/1000damage to power and simple weapon/skill numbers for easy viewing.
.5skill*1000weapon*1000power/1500=333.
.5skill*1000weapon*500power/1500=167 × 2 hits=333.

Toughness negates power in a 1 to 1 ratio.
The reason why toughness is not recommended, is because the equation doesn’t quite end there.
We have crit, we have conditions, we have evasion/avoidance, and we have focus fire.
Not having power, compromises your ability to kill other targets. Especially other high toughness ones. 1000 power vs 1000 toughness/armor
.5skill*1000weapon*1000power/1000=500
1500 power vs 1500 toughness
.5skill*1000weapon*1500power/1500=500

Power builds can avoid damage altogether. what options do toughness have for killing someone?
1000 power vs 1500 toughness.
.5skill*1000weapon*1000power/1500=333
Your mit based defense can be penetrated with conditions. you don’t have the offense to focus fire in team play.

Basically, you just want enough toughness to not get burst down. Evasion, heals, etc will do the rest, while you need the firepower to kill.

Okay, so your telling me you do not know? The second I read “Toughness negates power in a 1 to 1 ratio.” it was very clear you do not know the system. Different attack skills, be it weapons skills or utilities, have varying damage coefficients. Meaning different attacks scale differently with power. That should have been your first clue that toughness as a mitigater does not work on a 1 to 1 ratio with power.

Secondly, the equations you offered as support to your idea are not accurate on a mathematical level either.

Now you ask
“Power builds can avoid damage altogether. what options do toughness have for killing someone?”
Well it is pretty simple really. Any build can dodge. Not just “power builds”. i am unclear why you feel they are unique to “voiding damage altogether”. Gear with toughness on it also has offensive stats such as pow/prec/tough……Toughness doesn’t sacrifice any offensive abilities. Every piece of gear has some form of defensive stat, be that toughness, healing, or vitality. Your post appears to work on some assumption that someone is defenseless as a whole, and that is not reasonable, based on gear stats. The difference is the manner of defense chosen.

For every 1 toughness, incoming damage gets reduced by about .305 (I rounded down)

Example: let’s say you have base 20,000 health, and the enemy can do 1000 damage per second. You die in 20 seconds.

Another example:
Base 20,000 hp and 1000 damage per second incoming.

1388 vitality, 1159 toughness. Or 13,880 additional hp and 353.495 damage mitigated. So 33880 health, you die in 52 seconds.

1388 toughness, 1159 vitality. Or 11,590 additional hp and 423.34 damage mitigated. So 31590 health, you die in 54.78 seconds.

Higher toughness out scales the benefit of vitality the higher it goes as well.

coglin.1496:

Casia.4281:

What? its a %.
two attacks for 500 will do the same as 1 for 1000 vs lets say 500 toughness, 1000armor.
Changing the 500/1000damage to power and simple weapon/skill numbers for easy viewing.
.5skill*1000weapon*1000power/1500=333.
.5skill*1000weapon*500power/1500=167 × 2 hits=333.

Toughness negates power in a 1 to 1 ratio.
The reason why toughness is not recommended, is because the equation doesn’t quite end there.
We have crit, we have conditions, we have evasion/avoidance, and we have focus fire.
Not having power, compromises your ability to kill other targets. Especially other high toughness ones. 1000 power vs 1000 toughness/armor
.5skill*1000weapon*1000power/1000=500
1500 power vs 1500 toughness
.5skill*1000weapon*1500power/1500=500

Power builds can avoid damage altogether. what options do toughness have for killing someone?
1000 power vs 1500 toughness.
.5skill*1000weapon*1000power/1500=333
Your mit based defense can be penetrated with conditions. you don’t have the offense to focus fire in team play.

Basically, you just want enough toughness to not get burst down. Evasion, heals, etc will do the rest, while you need the firepower to kill.

Okay, so your telling me you do not know? The second I read “Toughness negates power in a 1 to 1 ratio.” it was very clear you do not know the system. Different attack skills, be it weapons skills or utilities, have varying damage coefficients. Meaning different attacks scale differently with power. That should have been your first clue that toughness as a mitigater does not work on a 1 to 1 ratio with power.

Secondly, the equations you offered as support to your idea are not accurate on a mathematical level either.

Now you ask
“Power builds can avoid damage altogether. what options do toughness have for killing someone?”
Well it is pretty simple really. Any build can dodge. Not just “power builds”. i am unclear why you feel they are unique to “voiding damage altogether”. Gear with toughness on it also has offensive stats such as pow/prec/tough……Toughness doesn’t sacrifice any offensive abilities. Every piece of gear has some form of defensive stat, be that toughness, healing, or vitality. Your post appears to work on some assumption that someone is defenseless as a whole, and that is not reasonable, based on gear stats. The difference is the manner of defense chosen.

For every 1 toughness, incoming damage gets reduced by about .305 (I rounded down)

Example: let’s say you have base 20,000 health, and the enemy can do 1000 damage per second. You die in 20 seconds.

Another example:
Base 20,000 hp and 1000 damage per second incoming.

1388 vitality, 1159 toughness. Or 13,880 additional hp and 353.495 damage mitigated. So 33880 health, you die in 52 seconds.

1388 toughness, 1159 vitality. Or 11,590 additional hp and 423.34 damage mitigated. So 31590 health, you die in 54.78 seconds.

Higher toughness out scales the benefit of vitality the higher it goes as well.

Hrm. I was mistaken. But not for the reason you suggest.
The equation is simply algerbra.

weapon damage and skill coeff have no direct relation to power vs toughness outcome.
coeff*weapon damage*power/toughness+armor=damage.
coeff*weapon is multiplying into power/tough+armor.
.3*1000*A/b=c
300*a+1/b+1=c The +1’s negate each other. its 1/1.

The mistake I was making was forgetting armor effecting the relationship of power vs toughness.
level 80 with no stats 916 power, 916toughness. that is 1:1. adding one above and one below will have a null effect on the equation.
But an engineer/thief will have 1046 armor in exotic medium.
So the equation is skill*weapon*916/1962
+ 10 power is 1% of 916. + 10 toughness is .05% of Armor(as the tough+armor combined stat)

So lets see.
lets use grenade 1 spam.

1.434 coeff/s with grenadier. (and short fuse, not +10% damage.) Will also forgo vul.
969 kit weapon.
916power
1962 defense(ill use defense as the name for combined tough/armor)

1.434*969*916/1962=648 damage per throw. (thats all 3 hitting)
200 power
1.434*969*1116/1962=790 damage/throw. 22% damage increase.
+200 toughness
1.434*969*1116/2162=717 d. 10% damage increase. This is200p+200 tough. power increased damage by 10% more then toughness reduced at even levels.
-200power
1.434*969*916/2162=588.7d 9% damage reduction.

so then, this just affirms and empowers the statements of toughness being poor.
Power is about twice as effective as toughness.

Casia.4281:

Hrm. I was mistaken. But not for the reason you suggest.
The equation is simply algerbra.

weapon damage and skill coeff have no direct relation to power vs toughness outcome.

Oh good lord. So what your saying is that you refuse to even try to learn. Check. I tried to explain it too you in basic terms.

Why are you trying to throw armor into the mix? If you fail to accept and understand toughness, even at the most basic level that I tried to inform you on, why do you think I can even begin to believe you have an idea how much damage armor mitigates?

Look lets go off a very simple error here and try to explain how what your saying doesn’t work. This is one line you offared

Casia.4281:

+ 10 power is 1% of 916. + 10 toughness is .05% of Armor(as the tough+armor combined stat)

+10 power is not even close to 1% of 916, It is freaking 10 power for Pete sake. it is very literally 1% of 1000.

1000 power effects the damage of Hip shot, bomb, and grenade all very differently. Because they all have different damage coefficients. it scales differently with each one. There for any reasonable person can understand that Power is not mitigated by toughness on a 1 to 1 point scale. !point into power will not add 1 point of damage to all 3.

… I was obviously rounding when I said 10 was was 1% of 916.
But you’re right, I was using decimals. so,10 is 1.0917% of 916.
WAY off. you are totally right. not even close. .09%. Dat 9 hundreds of a percent.

Let my try explaining algebra gain as well I suppose.

A*B*C/D=E.

.500*900*1000/1000=?
1000/1000=1 .5*900=450 450×1=450
A and B have no relevance. When C and D are equal. C and D will counter each other in a 1to1 ratio.
1500/1500=1
2000/2000=1
The problem was, I was leaving out armor.
The formula is:
A*B*C/D+F=E. That f changes the ratio. its no longer power/toughness in a 1/1 ratio.
Skill coeff and weapon damage will MULTIPLY into whatever comes out of that C/DF ratio. And have NO impact on it.

1000 power does effect different skills. But that will not vary differently from toughness/armor.

.599 rifle hipshot*1205weapon*916power/1962=337
+ 200 power
.599 rifle hipshot*1205weapon*1116power/1962=410.5 22% damage increase. Same 22% grenades increased with 200 power.
+200toughness
.599 rifle hipshot*1205weapon*1116power/2162=372.6 10.6% increase. (I rounded last time on this as well. but apparently, I should be more clear.)
-200 power.
.599 rifle hipshot*1205weapon*916power/2162=305.8 9% damage reduction.

Do you see? Totally different weapon and skill coeff, but 200 power increased damage by 22% exactly the same. 200tough increased damage reduction by 10.6% exactly the same.

This is pretty basic high school algebra.
I can not comprehend why people still argue after math is SHOWN.
Heck, if you see a flaw SHOW IT. the math is there, it should be pretty easy to point out any mistakes.
I’ve already corrected one. I’m not above changing my opinions based on new evidence. But telling me I’m wrong after I just mathematically proved I’m right repeatedly… just wow..