Guild Wars 2

The bleed on it, more specifically

Why is it only two seconds. No really. Before it was…five seconds. During one of the BWE. It was great, you could keep a constant 6-7 on someone, with Elixir U, you could keep 9-10. But then, close to release, they dropped it. Down to 2. 2 second bleed.

I really dont understand. I’m playing a Level 80 Engineer. I’ve been playing Engineer’s throughout all BWE, while i still believe Engineer’s are REALLY weak in the damage department compared to some other classes, and i think they could really use a damage buff on some kits. You know, some that are UNLIKE the bomb kit which requires you to be in MELEE RANGE or close to it, or Grenade kit, which takes alot of effort to be simply on par with the damage of others, though admittedly the Vuln on it is great.

*For example, this disgusting excuse for a montage http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4iPtHy6Nxw and compare that damage

I really cant understand why they would nerf it. The warrior rifle bleed is 6 seconds. Necro focus (or scepter, cant recall) has a 4 second bleed. TWO. WHY. I CANNOT UNDERSTAND.

And i know Engineer has alot of Utility. I’ve tried a full Elixir gun heal build in SPvP and it was amazing, i could sit my but down on a point and never move because i was ticking for regen 3 times every second, w/ weakness on autoattack and whatnot. But i really want some insight as to why oh why a nerf to a two second bleed was needed on a class that was already biting the dust in terms of both condition damage and direct damage. I want to love this class, i really do, but every time i play this class i only feel like going over and being a faceroll rifle/GS warrior so i can be just as effective for 1/2 the effort every time. Oh hell, any other class for that matter, i can be JUST as effective, and require not even close to the amount of effort required. I mean, effort is good, it makes the payoff all the sweeter, but there is really a line that needs to be drawn.

Honestly, didn’t understand the change either. All it really did was force 99% of the Engineers into Rifle Spec. It wasn’t like people were ranting and raving about pistol Engineers.

Supposedly the pistol aoe effect compensates for the duration…
I would gladly trade one for the other, most procs have icd’s anyway, aoe doesn’t matter.

Other classes condition builds can #1 spam kill. Why can’t we?
MORE DOTS PLEASE.

Warrior Rifle gets a 9 second Bleed base

Stack the +15% Bleed Duration and +10% Condition Duration runes and it easily stacks up to 11-12 second bleed

You can easily stack 20-25 stacks of Bleed on a Warrior by using Frenzy

Engineers push around 7-8 stacks?

Crim.6049:

Warrior Rifle gets a 9 second Bleed base

Stack the +15% Bleed Duration and +10% Condition Duration runes and it easily stacks up to 11-12 second bleed

You can easily stack 20-25 stacks of Bleed on a Warrior by using Frenzy

Engineers push around 7-8 stacks?

About.

In SPvP w/Krait + Afflicted runes for pure increased bleed you can get a 2 1/2 seconds of bleed on auto attack max. It still refuses to go over 5-6 base and 6-7 with quickness. If you get lucky with the crits, a bit more.

Prelude.3817:

Supposedly the pistol aoe effect compensates for the duration…
I would gladly trade one for the other, most procs have icd’s anyway, aoe doesn’t matter.

Other classes condition builds can #1 spam kill. Why can’t we?
MORE DOTS PLEASE.

The AoE is so pathetic I almost forget it’s there.

I’d much much MUCH prefer removing that AoE and just give more bleed capabilities to the 1 attack.

I think it has to do with the fact that dual pistols have access to every damage dealing condition in the game. While Warriors can stack their Bleeds much higher than we can, we have AoE Bleed, Confusion, Burn, and Poison. (With Coated Bullets Grandmaster trait)

With a Sigil of Superior Ice and Precise Sights trait, we literally have almost every condition in the game on our weapon set.

Would I like a 4 second base bleed? Sure. Is it going to make or break me? Nope.

Aristio.2784:

I think it has to do with the fact that dual pistols have access to every damage dealing condition in the game. While Warriors can stack their Bleeds much higher than we can, we have AoE Bleed, Confusion, Burn, and Poison. (With Coated Bullets Grandmaster trait)

With a Sigil of Superior Ice and Precise Sights trait, we literally have almost every condition in the game on our weapon set.

Would I like a 4 second base bleed? Sure. Is it going to make or break me? Nope.

Because its the Auto-attack. The other Pistol attacks (Both Dual and 1-h) are okay, but the auto-attack/1 skill is where most of your damage should be coming from, not matter the weapon. Its what you do when all your stuff is on CD. Its your bread and butter and its stillkitten weak. While i do agree that having all 3 attacks on primary pistol be Condition damage is neat and all, i at least want it to be GOOD condition damage instead of “You have a little bit of everything so how about we make it all weak”. The confusion on Daze shot is really nothing to write home about (Though the bounce + blind is), nor is the Poison darts considering you are not even guaranteed to hit all of them. Just because the pistol has multiple conditions doesnt mean they shouldnt be GOOD conditions.

Just look at the Rifle. Its great, you can CLEARLY see the Synergy in the skillset from the get-go. You can net, Jump, blunderbuss, power shot. Fantastic combo, and its obvious. Pistol doesnt have any synergy. Its just sort of…there, while still not being strong at all. Heres a Poison. Heres Confusion. Heres bleed.

Crim.6049:

Warrior Rifle gets a 9 second Bleed base

Stack the +15% Bleed Duration and +10% Condition Duration runes and it easily stacks up to 11-12 second bleed

You can easily stack 20-25 stacks of Bleed on a Warrior by using Frenzy

Engineers push around 7-8 stacks?

As much as I agree it was an over nerf. DO not over exaggerate. The warrior #1 skill on the rifle is 6s.

war vs engi is apples to oranges. different attack speeds, and traits.
Pistols aoe damage is very significant. With piercing pistols its extreme.

Me don’t have Dual Pistol. Me got shield. Me don’t have burn. Me want more bleeds. MORE BLEEEEEEEDS.

Edit: oh and I want engineer to learn to actually hit with poison dart too. Engi needs shooting lessons.

Casia.4281:

war vs engi is apples to oranges. different attack speeds, and traits.
Pistols aoe damage is very significant. With piercing pistols its extreme.

Significant?

The only time i ever find a use for it is if a mob has its back to the wall. Thats it, and it requires Pierce shots to hit 2×. Otherwise? It only hits once. And even then, the AoE is so utterly small they have to be balled up like a zerg rush held together with glue and duct tape.

Edit: oh, and did i mention the explosion will only apply the bleed once, even with Piercing shots? So even if the mob is hit by both the boolet and the explosion, it will only get 1 bleed on it.

/sarcasm on
Woooooot! I can do 300 more damage with Piercing bullet!! (If, as mentionned above, my target is directly next to a wall, and I’m shooting from the right angle, and i crit, and my target has poor armor)

Engi pistol autoshot is so awesome
/sarcasm off

Oh god, I just found a bug while testing this kitten trait: Explosion doesn’t trigger bleed anymore, with or without the trait. Just tested on a pack of dummies, only ONE target gets the bleed.
I WANT MY BLEEDS BACK NAOW

they really over-nerfed pistol. It was fine the way it was… now i see no one using it.

and its attack speed seems really slow. it is just not viable in tournaments when a warrior can deal 40 times your damage while giving 4 times your condition damage with a better accuracy holding a rifle. Also poison dart usually misses 2-3 shots out of 5 shots even against non-moving target golems. Only viable condition build is with Elixir Gun but it is exhausting to assign auto atk 1 after some time.

Prelude.3817:

Edit: oh and I want engineer to learn to actually hit with poison dart too. Engi needs shooting lessons.

Hahah I kind of agree, shooting from the hip is so unprofessional! I find using poison dart is best used like a shotgun, get real close and use it.

I second the overly short duration bleed, and feel it needs a buff, but that’s about it. The rest of the pistol kit is fine, it’s just the AA is really average damage and slow.

Engi does absurd damage in some other specs. 10k grenade barrage crit, it’s not easy to pull-off, you need the right target and some timing, but our damage can be very very significant when built properly, so I wouldn’t say the class.

Prelude.3817:

Me don’t have Dual Pistol. Me got shield. Me don’t have burn. Me want more bleeds. MORE BLEEEEEEEDS.

Edit: oh and I want engineer to learn to actually hit with poison dart too. Engi needs shooting lessons.

It’s been like this since I believe BW2. The explosion no longer causes the bleeding, it’s the actual pistol bullet. Coated Bullets will make the bullet travel through targets and end at maximum range. Any target hit by the bullet will trigger the explosion as well, but enemies hit by the AoE splash damage will not bleed.

Sooo…we got a skill doing a very weak, very narrow aoe, which has the shortest bleed duration of the whole game, and only affecting a single target.
Did I forget anything? oO

Aristio.2784:

Prelude.3817:

Me don’t have Dual Pistol. Me got shield. Me don’t have burn. Me want more bleeds. MORE BLEEEEEEEDS.

Edit: oh and I want engineer to learn to actually hit with poison dart too. Engi needs shooting lessons.

It’s been like this since I believe BW2. The explosion no longer causes the bleeding, it’s the actual pistol bullet. Coated Bullets will make the bullet travel through targets and end at maximum range. Any target hit by the bullet will trigger the explosion as well, but enemies hit by the AoE splash damage will not bleed.

It doesnt trigger the explosion. It only explodes at the end of the path.

Hence why you can only hit an enemy 2x with it if they have their back to a wall.

CoraCora.2641:

and its attack speed seems really slow. it is just not viable in tournaments when a warrior can deal 40 times your damage while giving 4 times your condition damage with a better accuracy holding a rifle. Also poison dart usually misses 2-3 shots out of 5 shots even against non-moving target golems. Only viable condition build is with Elixir Gun but it is exhausting to assign auto atk 1 after some time.

Dont get me started on Rifle Warrior.

Build a crit build and you can get 10k+ Killshot crits. No joke. 10k+ damage. On a 10 second cooldown. And with the right traits, yes, you DO in fact get 10 seconds of bleed PER AUTO ATTACK.

TEN.

I think the reason was cause engineer has easier access to all conditions. anyway it does make no sense, all condition applications where nerfed when I am not mistaken but it looks like the warrior one was forgotten.

Kinda weird, since pistol engineer should be all about conditions, but rangers/elementalists and ofcourse necromancers all can stacks bleeds waaaaay faster then engineer kinda :S

Ricky Rouse.1583:

CoraCora.2641:

and its attack speed seems really slow. it is just not viable in tournaments when a warrior can deal 40 times your damage while giving 4 times your condition damage with a better accuracy holding a rifle. Also poison dart usually misses 2-3 shots out of 5 shots even against non-moving target golems. Only viable condition build is with Elixir Gun but it is exhausting to assign auto atk 1 after some time.

Dont get me started on Rifle Warrior.

Build a crit build and you can get 10k+ Killshot crits. No joke. 10k+ damage. On a 10 second cooldown. And with the right traits, yes, you DO in fact get 10 seconds of bleed PER AUTO ATTACK.

TEN.

The Warrior Rifle is all about damage. Ours is on control/AoE. Also, how does one get 10k+ Critical Hits while simultaneously providing a 10 second bleed?

You can’t compare anything we have to the Warrior’s Burst Profession Skill. It’s not worth the trouble giving the pros and cons of their Burst Skills to our Tool Belt skills.

We have high burst on the Rifle too. With the Rifle, I usually go with Gadgets as well. So my burst rotation is Analyze>Personal Battering Ram>Jump Shot>Net Shot>Blunderbuss>Throw Wrench. EASILY breaks 10k, 15k on lighter targets.

CoraCora.2641:

and its attack speed seems really slow. it is just not viable in tournaments when a warrior can deal 40 times your damage while giving 4 times your condition damage with a better accuracy holding a rifle. Also poison dart usually misses 2-3 shots out of 5 shots even against non-moving target golems. Only viable condition build is with Elixir Gun but it is exhausting to assign auto atk 1 after some time.

are you shooting your poison dart 800-1050 distance away? if you shoot it from maybe 200-500 distance, are you still missing 2-3 shoots?

Aristio.2784:

We have high burst on the Rifle too. With the Rifle, I usually go with Gadgets as well. So my burst rotation is Analyze>Personal Battering Ram>Jump Shot>Net Shot>Blunderbuss>Throw Wrench. EASILY breaks 10k, 15k on lighter targets.

one dodge and some thoughness and your rotation maybe scratches 50% of someones hp and then you die to 3k dps from condtions because you have no condition removal. this build is not as good as you think.

One of the differences is we get access to reliable amounts of daze, burning and poison. Warrior doesn’t really get it easily, so most of their condition damage will naturally come from bleeds.

Ultimately, Apples and Spaceships.

Ok, compare with Necro then. Scepter: spam #1—→2 stacks of 4 sec bleed, 1 stack of poison. 900 range. similar speed. I remember necros killing my engi mostly spamming #1!

And even so, just from a pve perspective: I remember having to rely mostly on this skill for my first 5-10 lvls, before i got my hand on a decent rifle.
It-is-the-most-pathetic-auto-attack-ever.
Raaaah those first lvls were the hell, very slowly killing mobs while strafing around like a circus monkey. Oh the horror.

The AoE on #1 is probably useless in WvW or PvP but it can be extremely good in specific portions of PvE with the piercing bullets trait. When you get 6 or more mobs clumping together in a tight place every pistol auto-attack hits all of them 6 times. This could easily mean 1500 damage to all of them, plus all the bleeds. Sadly the only places I took advantage of this was specific parts of the story and dungeons (gravelings and undead usually swarm like that around melee characters and NPCs).

I would definitely want the bleed to go back to 4s, but would I give up the AoE for it… not sure.

Prelude.3817:

Ok, compare with Necro then. Scepter: spam #1—->2 stacks of 4 sec bleed, 1 stack of poison. 900 range. similar speed. I remember necros killing my engi mostly spamming #1!

And even so, just from a pve perspective: I remember having to rely mostly on this skill for my first 5-10 lvls, before i got my hand on a decent rifle.
It-is-the-most-pathetic-auto-attack-ever.
Raaaah those first lvls were the hell, very slowly killing mobs while strafing around like a circus monkey. Oh the horror.

Again Necro’s don’t get burning or daze as reliably. Not that I’m disagreeing, pistol AA sucks major…hot dog. It’s just bad comparisons, comparing inter-class is generally flawed.

Its been nerfed so many times man.

Used to be a 4s AoE bleed.

Then a 4s single target bleed.

Now a 2s single target bleed.

They need to either make it: 4s single target, or 2s AoE IMO.

It used to be very powerful, but now its on the weak side.

I have the feeling they are balancing it around coated bullets/sigil of earth which just sucks. Better nerf the trait or the sigil but don’t force people to get this stuff or otherwise the weapon sucks.

2 sec is just overkill even for the rather fast attack speed. The power scaling is sokittenlow.

Apart from that fact that i can barely stack 4bleeds with my auto attack. My biggest issue with Engi Pistols is the OH Flamethrower.

When i use the OH Flamethrower, if my character is facing the mob/player, but my camera isnt straight ahead, as im using mouse look, the flamethrower always misses.

In PvP i manage around a 40% hit rate with the ability 4.

Any of you guys suffering similarly?

Visionary.5681:

Apart from that fact that i can barely stack 4bleeds with my auto attack. My biggest issue with Engi Pistols is the OH Flamethrower.

When i use the OH Flamethrower, if my character is facing the mob/player, but my camera isnt straight ahead, as im using mouse look, the flamethrower always misses.

In PvP i manage around a 40% hit rate with the ability 4.

Any of you guys suffering similarly?

Yes, similar effect with Blunderbuss on the rifle, you have to have them in your direct cone of vision or it gets wonky as hell.

Well the thing isnt so much the Bleed, its the damage of the total ability. If it has a 2sec bleed but hits for 1k, i dont see the problem.

But, thats not how it works now does? At lv80, with a bunch of exotics going for prec/cond damage with some power/toughness mixed as third stat.

Initial hit, 280. Followed by two ticks of 80 damage. Really? Not even 500 damage? A crit would make that 460 and two ticks of 80 damage because conditions themselves dont actually scale with anything but condition damage.

And dont bring up traits and sigils that proc on crit , because they can proc on everything. So fact remains, Explosive Shot is a pisspoor ability. When my own Rifle can already get around 900 crits (same gear, so not ideal for Rifle).

A 5sec bleed would make it 800-900dmg on crit. That seems expectable for a lv80 attack with an Exotic pistol, and gear stacking condition damage.

Explosives shots needs either an increase in bleed duration OR a different slight buff, like aoe bleed.

Not yust saying this an Engineer myself, but also as objective media designer

Just wanted to add my voice on the subject. I don’t know why they made it a 2 second bleed either. As some others have said the only possible thing i could think of is because of the aoe damage, it’s so pitiful though it might as well not be there. I would trade the aoe damage for even a 3 second bleed, honestly I would. I am currently rolling a support build because I don’t really want to use the rifle and our condition damage on the pistol is just lacking too much.

Let my try again. Pistol/pistol is innately more damage then damage then rifle. This is pretty evident at low levels, where I think its pretty clear p/p kills faster.
however, power, crit and crit damage have higher damage scaling themselves, so rifle at end game surpasses p/p in raw dps. This shouldn’t be very surprising. each scales off each other and raw weapon damage as well as vulnurabilty, while cond damage doesnt scale with anything.
Condition based weapons tend to be over time, and utility based. While rifle does of course have utility itself with jump and knockdown obviously.
p/p has anti-heal, confuse, and root. The lack of burst should make it obvious that you need to build for sustain and not burst glass cannon. Grenades or rifle with power, crit, crit damage will always win that.
p/p is also significant aoe, as I noted, esp with coated bullets.
1 is naturally aoe. with coated bullets it now will explode multiple times. in pve hitting stacked targets is nuts. in pvp, illusions, pets, turrets, etc all let you proc additional times when they get close. or just multiple players. shooting people on siege rams. lol.
It also makes poison dart volley pierce. Its volley effect can be a pain. really you DO need to be within 600 to get all 5 shots to reliably hit target 1. And target 2 won’t no matter what. but still, when firing into a pack. brutal.
Static shot is naturally 4 bounces. shame coated has no effect, as far as I can tell. Too bad it doesn’t cause it to bounce to 3 new targets.
Blowtorch. naturally aoe. alot probably didnt know that. Interestingly, coated bullets makes the direct hit separate into 3. normally, if you hit with the direct hit, it will say like 750, which would be 250×3. however, with coated bullets, you will actually see 250 three times. these hits crit independently.

Pistols are inferior to the rifle, certainly. A 0/30/0/10/30 build with Berserker Amulet gets 4.5k crits with Blunderbuss; which is similar to the linked video with no charge time like Kill Shot has.

Rifle also gets 2 great CC’s without having to weapon switch like that warrior is doing. Yes, Warrior ranged damage is better than our AOE condition pistols. That’s to be expected. I will say that Warrior damage does seem a little high at times – considering they have the highest base hitpoints (tied with Necros) and the highest base armor (tied with Guardians).

However, rather than trying to measure crits of one class against another, you should probably be thinking big picture. The Engineer does lack as a whole in the damage department. However, we make up for that with sneaky-good utility and a host of crowd control abilities. I’d venture to say Engineers are the best CC class in the game.

I don’t want to hurt Engineers by asking for too much. If you want to receive, you have to give – and I don’t want to give up CC.

Right now the pistol is a confused weapon. It is trying to do conditions and DD at the same time but sucking at both. Considering we have a DD weapon with the rifle I would like to see them bump the explosive shot bleed up a bit to make it more viable.

Yes P/P is a pretty strong condition setup but a majority of the condition damage is coming from blowtorch, and its a little annoying if we have to rely on a single ability put out decent condition damage. I would rather not have to be pigeon holed into a burn build if I want to use conditions on my engy.

Plus the rifle easily out damages the pistol right now. And correct me if I am wrong but aren’t dots supposed to do more overall damage than DD since it takes time to output that damage. Also the rifle comes with piercing shots…. you don’t have to trait it.

onzo.6987:

Pistols are inferior to the rifle, certainly. A 0/30/0/10/30 build with Berserker Amulet gets 4.5k crits with Blunderbuss; which is similar to the linked video with no charge time like Kill Shot has.

Rifle also gets 2 great CC’s without having to weapon switch like that warrior is doing. Yes, Warrior ranged damage is better than our AOE condition pistols. That’s to be expected. I will say that Warrior damage does seem a little high at times – considering they have the highest base hitpoints (tied with Necros) and the highest base armor (tied with Guardians).

However, rather than trying to measure crits of one class against another, you should probably be thinking big picture. The Engineer does lack as a whole in the damage department. However, we make up for that with sneaky-good utility and a host of crowd control abilities. I’d venture to say Engineers are the best CC class in the game.

I don’t want to hurt Engineers by asking for too much. If you want to receive, you have to give – and I don’t want to give up CC.

But just take dungeons. CC is worthless against all those bosses/bigger mobs. If we atleast had alot of blocks to dodge/block tank abit like guardian. Our utility is indeed 100% directed on enemy targets which doesn’t work vs bosses. Only usefull skills I found were elixir S and R.

My big hope is a turret remake that might give some dmg.

Play a Charr engineer

get the trait that inflicts bleed and gives you piercing bullets

stack crit and use hidden pistols tool belt skill and shrapnel mine

Spam Poison dart and Hidden pistols tool belt skill and throw shrapnel mine

Massive AoE bleed

Haha, ok so super specific build in order to be viable. Gotcha.

Aristio.2784:

The Warrior Rifle is all about damage. Ours is on control/AoE.

You mean the warriors 5s cripple and knock back, on the rifle are not control? What do we have? A knock back and a 2s immobilize. That seems pretty darn equivalent to be claiming our rifle is superior control

Aristio.2784:

Ricky Rouse.1583:

CoraCora.2641:

and its attack speed seems really slow. it is just not viable in tournaments when a warrior can deal 40 times your damage while giving 4 times your condition damage with a better accuracy holding a rifle. Also poison dart usually misses 2-3 shots out of 5 shots even against non-moving target golems. Only viable condition build is with Elixir Gun but it is exhausting to assign auto atk 1 after some time.

Dont get me started on Rifle Warrior.

Build a crit build and you can get 10k+ Killshot crits. No joke. 10k+ damage. On a 10 second cooldown. And with the right traits, yes, you DO in fact get 10 seconds of bleed PER AUTO ATTACK.

TEN.

The Warrior Rifle is all about damage. Ours is on control/AoE. Also, how does one get 10k+ Critical Hits while simultaneously providing a 10 second bleed?

You can’t compare anything we have to the Warrior’s Burst Profession Skill. It’s not worth the trouble giving the pros and cons of their Burst Skills to our Tool Belt skills.

We have high burst on the Rifle too. With the Rifle, I usually go with Gadgets as well. So my burst rotation is Analyze>Personal Battering Ram>Jump Shot>Net Shot>Blunderbuss>Throw Wrench. EASILY breaks 10k, 15k on lighter targets.

But thats the thing. We need to use all four toolbelt skills in conjunction and in the most effective manner to deal 1/3 to 1/2 of the damage a warrior can deal by hitting F1, standing still for two seconds, then critting for half someone’s health. Even Rangers can have an easier time dealing more damage without having to use 4 additional utility slots.

RapBreon.9836:

One of the differences is we get access to reliable amounts of daze, burning and poison. Warrior doesn’t really get it easily, so most of their condition damage will naturally come from bleeds.

Ultimately, Apples and Spaceships.

Daze?

Uh, IIRC the only daze we have is the Shield Throw. and thats on a rather high cooldown.

And the burning + poison Dual Pistol engineers get is pretty iffy considering the Burning + Darts is not at max effectiveness (Not entirely true for darts) unless you are in melee range or close to it.

You literally need to sacrifice range for damage on two of your abilities with ranged weapons on a ranged build.

I can really think of no other class that actually needs to do that. And quite frankly i find it a tad ridiculous.

Ricky Rouse.1583:

RapBreon.9836:

One of the differences is we get access to reliable amounts of daze, burning and poison. Warrior doesn’t really get it easily, so most of their condition damage will naturally come from bleeds.

Ultimately, Apples and Spaceships.

Daze?

Uh, IIRC the only daze we have is the Shield Throw. and thats on a rather high cooldown.

And the burning + poison Dual Pistol engineers get is pretty iffy considering the Burning + Darts is not at max effectiveness (Not entirely true for darts) unless you are in melee range or close to it.

You literally need to sacrifice range for damage on two of your abilities with ranged weapons on a ranged build.

I can really think of no other class that actually needs to do that. And quite frankly i find it a tad ridiculous.

doesn’t rifle 4 have a daze?

Tigger.8035:

doesn’t rifle 4 have a daze?

No, it has a launch.

Tigger.8035:

Ricky Rouse.1583:

RapBreon.9836:

One of the differences is we get access to reliable amounts of daze, burning and poison. Warrior doesn’t really get it easily, so most of their condition damage will naturally come from bleeds.

Ultimately, Apples and Spaceships.

Daze?

Uh, IIRC the only daze we have is the Shield Throw. and thats on a rather high cooldown.

And the burning + poison Dual Pistol engineers get is pretty iffy considering the Burning + Darts is not at max effectiveness (Not entirely true for darts) unless you are in melee range or close to it.

You literally need to sacrifice range for damage on two of your abilities with ranged weapons on a ranged build.

I can really think of no other class that actually needs to do that. And quite frankly i find it a tad ridiculous.

doesn’t rifle 4 have a daze?

Thats a knockback.

And it also stuns YOU, by the way. Though its great for getting distance and IIRC you get up faster than the guy you shot does so its decent.

I meant pistol.kitten wasn’t thinking straight