Guild Wars 2

There are two very different stories about Engineers that get posted on these forums.

• On one hand we have videos and posts from people confirming how their Engineer can chew up and spit out pretty every other class, up to and including 1v3 fights.
• On the other hand we have lots of complaints about Engineers being underpowered compared with other classes.

Underlying that first group of posts is the message:
Engineers are awesome if you just learn how to play them properly.

So why isn’t that message working?

It seems to me the problem is that the Engineer class is far harder to ‘learn to play properly’ than all other classes (with the possible exception of the Elementalist), and that this is detrimental both to the class and to Guild Wars 2.

The people who master Engineers are comfortable manipulating the massive range of key press chains/combinations required to make the most of the massive flexibility available to engineers. Using long chains (6+) of carefully-timed and constantly-adapted keystrokes these Elite players can get their Engineers to outplay pretty much anything. As a result, they a) love their Engineers, and b) post about how they regularly outperform every other class.

The people who find Engineers underpowered seem to be players comfortable only with key press chains/combinations of the length (~3) and complexity (simple repeated combinations) required by other classes. These far more common players (Average players) often enjoy playing the Engineer class, but are unable to get it to perform to the level of other classes they play, with the result that they complain that the engineer is underpowered.

The problem is that while Elite players can get their Engineers to outperform everyone else, they represent only a very small (but highly skilled) subset of the people who play or want to play engineers. For the majority of people (i.e. those with average skill levels) who play or want to play Engineers, this class is weak relative to the other classes they play.

The result: the most fun class to play in Guildwars2 proves disappointing in practice for the majority of players.

ArenaNet have a huge asset in the Engineer class (Who doesn’t want to play a really fun class in a great MMO?), but it needs some love at the average skill level to shift its play experience from underwhelming to equitable for the majority of players.

How to do this?
Not sure, but a bit of balancing to make non-kit builds (turrets, elixirs, etc.) more viable would be a good start, as this would allow people who haven’t mastered dynamic kit swapping to at least get average performance out of their engineers.

What aspect of the game are you referring to? PvP, WvW, or PvE? Because the efficacy of the engineering class varies depending on which you play.

The engineer does have a good number of bugs that need to be fixed, and probably will be fixed in the future, but once that occurs I believe that the different classes will still be tweaked so that everyone can be good at each different part of the game. I can understand that it feels bad to feel like your party is carrying you in a dungeon, or that you’re not as effective as other classes in PvP, and when you come to the forums to post suggestions someone tells you to L2P (It happens to all of us).

Other classes have similar balance issues. Look at how broken the thief is; It’s a monster in PvP and WvW, but it only has two (monstrously) good builds and it’s use is limited in dungeons. At the moment every class is overlooked in dungeons when you compare them to how guardians perform.

It all comes down to waiting for Anet to balance this game some more and work on those bug fixes. The engineer is UP at the moment but it’s also fun and definitely not unplayable.

The ability to 1v3 in GW2 has no direct link on the competitiveness of the profession. Anyone can do it, especially in WvW when gear gets involved. Skill is mostly composed of knowledge and experience as well, so when dealing most opponents they have no idea how to play against the Engineer profession making it incredibly easy to outplay a lot of opponents.

We aren’t in tip top shape though. We have a lot of stuff that needs to be fixed, some of which are interfering with our competitiveness. This is a common thing among all professions in general, but with us we really only have maybe one completely tested and true competitive build while others often have one or two that are certainly competitive. That build, 100 Nades, is also overshadowed by the existence of the Backstab variants a Thief has.

That being said though, we aren’t nearly as underpowered as most people think. This is in part though due to how GW2 is designed where skill plays a whole lot more into who wins fights then anything else. Not to mention our interaction with Pizza in WvW for Condi-Dmg builds is something few people utilize. We can trash things in WvW and do plenty well enough in PvE to not be hindrance. In sPvP we do okay, but there are certain limits once people understand the Engineer in return.

Bringing it back around though, we still could use a couple tweaks upward. When it comes down to it, other professions can do similar things to what we can, except do it either better or bring other strong attributes along side it. The engineer is extremely fun though, and I don’t think I’ll ever switch out. Regardless of whether I do better as other professions or not, I’m in it for the long haul now.

I think it is really difficult to assess the situation with so many bugs still outstanding. I’d say the bugs are what really drives us to be pigeonholed.

Chaba.5410:

I think it is really difficult to assess the situation with so many bugs still outstanding. I’d say the bugs are what really drives us to be pigeonholed.

What bugs specifically pigeon hole our profession? ANd what are we pigeon holed into exactly?

Ayestes.1273:

That being said though, we aren’t nearly as underpowered as most people think. This is in part though due to how GW2 is designed where skill plays a whole lot more into who wins fights then anything else. Not to mention our interaction with Pizza in WvW for Condi-Dmg builds is something few people utilize. We can trash things in WvW and do plenty well enough in PvE to not be hindrance. In sPvP we do okay, but there are certain limits once people understand the Engineer in return.

(Speaking from a WvW/PvE perspective, non-fractals)
Agreed, people seem to think they are pigeonholed into certain roles, traits and utilities, but its just not true. Our basic weapons are phenomenal, just not as tricksy as other classes. Our damage seems under-evaluated. The problem I see is that people are trying to force a glass cannon build, or full tank build when it should be more balanced.

Another thing, its not that the profession requires the ‘elite’ touch to use superbly, its just that a few bugs and certain aspects really discourage new players to the profession. If you’ve rolled a warrior first then go here, you are going to be discouraged by the lack of (easily obtained)heavy melee pressure and range. There is no killshot, the closest thing to it is static discharge zerker. The engi has no backstab, no stealth, no illusions, no deathshroud, no daggerstorm, and no heavy armor. The things that discourage most? We have stunbreakers that stun self, a flamethrower you are probably going to miss half your shots with the first few minutes you discover, superheavy GT kit that you will only appreciate if you were first a mark necro, traits that completely make or break your build, a shotgun in the disguise of a rifle, and only two mainhand weapons both ranged. A lot of our bad rep comes from this and the fact that in dungeons and the sorts, many of us are still learning and we are just an akward profession. Were not bad, we don’t require the elite touch, we’re just different.

Lord Aargadon.4135:

Another thing, its not that the profession requires the ‘elite’ touch to use superbly, its just that a few bugs and certain aspects really discourage new players to the profession.

What bugs discourage new players from the profession?

And honestly, the same can be said for any class when compared to the warrior. They do way to much damage when compared to their ability to mitigate damage when it comes to PvE.

But in WvW, I will meet any warrior anytime 1v1 and smart money will never be on the warrior.

No stealth? What are you talking about? I can stack 15s+ of stealth by self comboing off of smoke bomb.

Flame thrower misses are all but fixed, not you just have to aimed even remotely toward the target.

As far as stun breakers, I assume you mean rocket boots. You do realise you do not have to use them right? I seriously have to ask because you have been very wrong in your claimes such as stealth and the flamethrower, so I have to ask because it kind of appears you knowledge on the profession is some what limited. We sacrafice a small knock back for the benefit of a 900 range. We do not get stunned. That is 3 topics of misinformation so far.

Whats a “GT” kit ???

We only have 1 MH weapon. Not two. We have 1 main hand weapon, 2 off hand weapons, and 1 two handed weapon. Thats 4 false hoods you posted so far.

you want to talk about a lot of our so called “bad rep”, well appearently it comes from a plague of posters spreading misinformation.

Flamethrower cone is one, I got pretty discouraged by it initially, but my stubborness overcame it. Once upon a time as a new player I had Elixer X, which used to be very bugged, around 40% chance of failure back then and still rarely fails, which is very frustrating, its an elite that doesn’t even work, you anticipate something amazing to happen. The rifle and pistol skills tend to fail at melee range until you’ve mastered managing the camera, rifle blunderbuss used to fail occaisonally. Thats all I can think of at the moment.

I have no missing issues since the last changes in the FT so I do not know what your talking about.

I highly doubt that an RNG skill bugging out will deture players honestly. The skill is shunned for the RNG alone by most. When I used it though, I never once had a failure issue though. Odd. I agree though, it is a crappy, unoriginal elite in my opinion.

Sorry, but your blaming a lack of skill on weapons. Rifle and pistol do not fail at melee range, you fail at that range. As a matter of fact the rifle has a melee range AoE and knock back. P/S excels here also. The weapons do not lack in this area. That is absurd.

I mean seriously, your going to blame the profession as an issue until you learn to use your camera properly. …….Sorry, you Complaining about L2P issues to bash the profession. I cannot take you seriously after that.

coglin.1496:

Chaba.5410:

I think it is really difficult to assess the situation with so many bugs still outstanding. I’d say the bugs are what really drives us to be pigeonholed.

What bugs specifically pigeon hole our profession? ANd what are we pigeon holed into exactly?

Well let’s examine that shall we from a PVE perspective:

Go FT/EG (because I’ve checked and the cone attacks STILL miss despite them claiming they work, it’s down to 40% of the time now whereas before it was about 65-70% of the time prepatch) rules that out.

Go explosions (still checking this out) the radius was too small even with the FE trait and it was 33% damage reduction even tho none of the sigils compensated for that damage, so that’s out and Mines triggers didn’t have a high enough range to actually go off and do enough damage (they still are nerfed and don’t cause cripple like simple physics would demand they do).

Pistols still fire as slowly as the Rifle does, reducing their dps dramatically. So that’s out.

Turrets still don’t function properly with the trait to drop them anywhere, and they die quickly because they have exactly 0 armor apparently and hardly do any damage whatsoever not even on the scale with the Ranger pets.

So what does that leave us with for effective non-bugged choices of weaponry. Oh yeah that leaves us the Rifle and that doesn’t even have the same range as other rifles in the game, i use it with either condi or discharge or a little of both. (oh and the option to tank with toolkit or drink pots).

Dunno about you but that definitely looks like pidgeonholing to me. Having so many bugs in a class that you have fewer if not any choices in a build to enjoy gameplay without your abilities simply not making a bit of difference.

I was one of the ones disappointed with this patch because I have used the cone attacks on my current build and they still miss so they aren’t really fixed, and I can see that they still haven’t allocated enough personel to completely squash the bugs on classes like the Engi, Necro, Ranger once and for all. It’s going on 6 months now, even a contractor service would work at this point in time.

(Edit: Oh and it’s definitely not due to a lack of skill at this point that’s become a straw man argument, you can spend all day leeting it up all over the forums, but it won’t make it right.)

(Edit2: Oh and I almost forgot the miss chance of the poison barbs shot on the pistols, the only multishot engis have and it misses incessantly as often as the cones do)

I had no issues missing with the FT last night at all. All I had to do is aim even remotely in the targets direction. I disagree with that one

There is a bug that a radius is too small? on what? Which skills are bugged by this?

Pistol bugs I agree with. What I do not agree with is how you portray it as a issue unique to the profession. It is indicative of the weapon on all pistol professions, it is not an engineer bug. Stop trying to pretend it is unique to us.

Yeah turrets are as problematic as necro minions. No argument from me there.

LOL so you say that only leaves us with rifles…..Wow what a cheap straw mane argument. I have yet to see you prove pistols were unusable. If they are so broke, why do I see thieves and engineers using them all of the time. It is ridiculous claims like this that make it difficult for skilled players to take your argument seriously.

Pigeon holed, no. Not hardly. I think it is more and more apparent every day, that skill, adaptability, and the ability to think and play outside the box, effect how the profession works head and shoulders above how bugs do.

As far as your issue with the devs fixing Necros, Rangers, and what not, cry me a river. We are discussing engineers here. Secondly, does your family farm stray and bale it or something? Yous showing straw men at use like they are going out of style. Find me one MMO bug free after six months. As a mater of fact, find me an MMO that has this much content added and has so few bugs.

JohnDied.3476:

What aspect of the game are you referring to? PvP, WvW, or PvE? Because the efficacy of the engineering class varies depending on which you play.

Yay! So true.

About the original question: to an extent, it’s true—engineers in general have a hard time just rotating through their weapon skills to kill stuff, even just in general PvE. So there’s a slight “skill floor.” We also have some difficult traits to make sense of.

In PvP, any slightly underperforming profession can feel like it’s for the “elite” only, just because a player has to play a little better in general for the same result. There’s nothing inherently hard about playing an engineer, though. Toolbelt and kit swapping are possibly the easiest mechanic in the game to understand. They’re not even really a mechanic, they’re just additional skills.

NevirSayDie.6235:

JohnDied.3476:

What aspect of the game are you referring to? PvP, WvW, or PvE? Because the efficacy of the engineering class varies depending on which you play.

Yay! So true.

About the original question: to an extent, it’s true—engineers in general have a hard time just rotating through their weapon skills to kill stuff, even just in general PvE. So there’s a slight “skill floor.” We also have some difficult traits to make sense of.

In PvP, any slightly underperforming profession can feel like it’s for the “elite” only, just because a player has to play a little better in general for the same result. There’s nothing inherently hard about playing an engineer, though. Toolbelt and kit swapping are possibly the easiest mechanic in the game to understand. They’re not even really a mechanic, they’re just additional skills.

None of the classes in this game are hard to play lol, playing your class is extremely simple in this game. Skill cap is embarrassingly low every class in this game.

The logic of MMO gamers can be boiled down to a very “hands off” approach. Despite many bugs within the class, the under-powered turret design, and the “okay” kit builds players will swear this class is fine. My main point would be to examine how many people play the class. The game has been out for a while now and populations are a bit more trained. Within the community the answer is clear; I’m willing to bet that if a census were taken now we’d now be looking the least played class and with good reasons.

The engineer is a broken class. I’ve had a engineer since day 1 and he’s been 80 for a long time. I mostly play WvW, and I can honestly say that our class isn’t that great. We’re more of a assist machine, excellent at beating a dead horse, and horrible at being a point man. We can do a lot of things, and have a lot of combinations which allow us to do a lot of things. However we don’t really excel at anything. The issue becomes you are a jack of all trades and a master of none. In essence you as a engineer can be perform 4-5 abilities but really don’t master or dominate one.

I’ve found that in MMOs if a jack of all trade class doesn’t have one aspect to set them apart from the rest they will suck. In EQ the bard was the best AoE kiter because of speed and rapidity of song twisting. In WoW the druid was a solid healer for a long time because of the speed and HoTs. In GW2 the engineer really doesn’t have a kit/turret/gadget that makes them worth playing. The combination of being able to do so many things doesn’t even meld well. It seems we’re lacking on all fronts.

Recently I took a small break from GW2, before I left I started to notice this at high-end WvW. The engineer players retired their characters and swapped them for Thieves, Guardians, Eles, and Warriors; they’re arguably the 4 best WvW classes. The engineer at high end doesn’t offer anything useful to a group in WvW outside of our Elixer Revive toss (and even that is debatable on effectiveness). Can a turret bunker build help hold a point? Not really because any AoE will eliminate our turrets and because they’re slot abilities you’re looking at a 20-60 CD where you have lost 2 slots and have 1 left (which is usually for me an escape slot). When I cam back I came across a D/D Ele and my god did I get melted. Now I’m not blaming our class mechanics solely for this. However I do have to wonder why our class doesn’t have more players playing it.

I truly believe that our class suffers because we don’t have a good synergy within our class. Our kits are often spread out through different traits. Want a bomb kit to heal players 30 in turrets/ 20 in explode/ and now only 10 left to spend on whatever. Which is only for one path. Ultimately our class needs a total rework. Or it needs to be eliminated all together. I personally think that in any future content add-ons I’d like to see the Engi fill the role of a Siege-Wep master. But that’s my fantasy.

If you go by the forums every class sucks. Hell even guardians are starting to QQ on the forums now saying all they have gotten since launch are nerfs. If people picked their class in any game based on the one with the least whiners no one would ever play anything. I have played 10 MMOs and never have I found a class that actually requires skill. And by skill I mean skill as in you need skill to do open heart surgery.

You dont need skill to play a video game. Just remember most people who play MMOs are downright terrible. Only a small minority of players would be considered Elite gamers. Play what you like and enjoy dont play something based on what everyone on the forums is saying. Hell take necros for example. Everyone knows minions are bugged and broken all to hell even people who dont play them know that. But people still play using minion builds and do so at max level.

I’m agreeing with the original poster on this one. The vast amounts of QQ that I see plaguing this forum only serves to prove that people simply don’t know how to play this class effectively. Judging from this thread alone, I can tell that people want to be the super-star player who wins and dominates by themselves, but playing as an engineer that simply isn’t the case.

As Kareem Abdul-Jabbar once said, “One man can be a crucial ingredient on a team, but one man cannot make a team.”

coglin.1496:

Chaba.5410:

I think it is really difficult to assess the situation with so many bugs still outstanding. I’d say the bugs are what really drives us to be pigeonholed.

What bugs specifically pigeon hole our profession? ANd what are we pigeon holed into exactly?

coglin,

I appreciate what you’re trying to do here in defending the profession and those of us who chose to play it. You won’t get an argument from me on whether a complaint arises from a player’s lack of experience or skill rather than something actually wrong with the profession. It would be honest though to admit that those of us dedicated to the profession tend to avoid certain traits or skills because of bugs with those skills. Beginners to the profession (that’s what this thread is about, no?) do not really know where these bugs are. When they try to rely upon some skill that actually isn’t working right because it is bugged and they don’t realize it is bugged, they may unfairly form a negative opinion about the profession. To me, that makes it difficult to assess whether the profession is truly only for elite players or not.

You claimed that bugs pigeon hole our profession. I simply asked which ones specifically you refer to? As well as what do you feel it pigeon holes us into?

It is a reasonable question. Your reply to me asking it originally appear as if your making a lot of incorrect assumptions and trying to read things into my question that are not there. Any particular reason your dodging it?

hey all would just like to say I’m not an elite player I’m more a casual pve kinda guy i run a 4 kit build bombs, nades, elixir gun, med-kit and I’m having a blast pun non intended its kinda cool having an answer to every situation could use a lil more condition removal but all in all i survive and thrive in Orr and havnt been kicked from a dungeon once and from what i read engis are supposed to be crap in pve well im not seeing it ive got an 80 warrior and an 80 guardian warrior is boring guardians ok but engi is sooo much fun so casual guys dont be discouraged take it from a casual player lot if fun to be had as an engi

I haven’t rolled thief or mesmer to 80 yet, but out of the other 6 classes, the engineer is the best one for pvp imo.

I guess it’s all about what you want in a class, and the engineer does everything I want a class to do, and does it well.

We get some of the best healing skills, auto elixer s, the best range aoe damage for wvw via nades, turrets, tank builds, dps builds, healer builds, burst builds, condition builds, CC builds….

honestly wtf more do people want? all this nit-picking…

Have any of you complainers ever played a necro? ,,,now there’s something to complain about.

@Ezeriel

Yeah I play a necro. It has a lot more utility and surviveability than my engineer, probably more dps as well although it doesn’t burst as hard.

I play the game for spvp. That IMO is where the engineer starts to underperform and you don’t see that many in matches, let alone the variety of builds you mentioned.

“honestly wtf more do people want? all this nit-picking…”

I want them to do something about the crappy bleed duration on the pistols.

I want them to remove the idiotic pause at the end of jump shot so that people can’t just walk away from it. And it could also be viable as an escape option.

I want them to remove the punitive RNG aspects of the class. The tornado from elixer X looks kinda cool. Am I going to roll the dice with it in pvp? Hell no.

Etc. The assumption that people are “whining” because they don’t know how to play an engie is garbage. It would be equally valid to assume that the people who believe the class is fine as is simply haven’t had enough experience with other classes to know better.

With regards to the opening post in this thread: in spvp I don’t see engineers chewing up every other class and I’ve never seen one take down 3 people at once. The fact that someone might do that in WvW where gear disparity comes into play says nothing about the strength of the class.

The fact that turrets are inferior to any other skill in the game makes a good reason to complain. If you compare it to necro pets, remember that they are not mobile. All of the builds mentioned above have a hole in their logic which is the conditions they need to work. If you run through the threads you will see very constructive discussions proving our burst,bunker,tanky, “healing” and so on builds inferior compared to other classes due to the number of factors that have to be true in order for it to work. In a first glance for someone that is not aware of how certain builds work, a build could feel overpowered (100nades e.g.) but when he understands that in order for this build to work, the engineer has to walk INSIDE you… well I can’t count how many ways there are to avoid this.

coglin.1496:

I had no issues missing with the FT last night at all. All I had to do is aim even remotely in the targets direction. I disagree with that one

There is a bug that a radius is too small? on what? Which skills are bugged by this?

Pistol bugs I agree with. What I do not agree with is how you portray it as a issue unique to the profession. It is indicative of the weapon on all pistol professions, it is not an engineer bug. Stop trying to pretend it is unique to us.

Yeah turrets are as problematic as necro minions. No argument from me there.

LOL so you say that only leaves us with rifles…..Wow what a cheap straw mane argument. I have yet to see you prove pistols were unusable. If they are so broke, why do I see thieves and engineers using them all of the time. It is ridiculous claims like this that make it difficult for skilled players to take your argument seriously.

Pigeon holed, no. Not hardly. I think it is more and more apparent every day, that skill, adaptability, and the ability to think and play outside the box, effect how the profession works head and shoulders above how bugs do.

As far as your issue with the devs fixing Necros, Rangers, and what not, cry me a river. We are discussing engineers here. Secondly, does your family farm stray and bale it or something? Yous showing straw men at use like they are going out of style. Find me one MMO bug free after six months. As a mater of fact, find me an MMO that has this much content added and has so few bugs.

Thieves use pistols because mechanics are different and P/D condi for thief is ones best specs for downing players. Thief bleed stacking is 10x better than eng off pistols and lasts longer too. 4s vs 2s. Eng use pistols because of confusion and fire dmg really. If go for stright bleed killing someone pistols are lacking which is autoatack and that is where pistols are weak.

coglin.1496:

You claimed that bugs pigeon hole our profession. I simply asked which ones specifically you refer to? As well as what do you feel it pigeon holes us into?

It is a reasonable question. Your reply to me asking it originally appear as if your making a lot of incorrect assumptions and trying to read things into my question that are not there. Any particular reason your dodging it?

And I answered your question in as reasonable a manner as possible. The only point in arguing specifics (like bringing up FT which was extremely buggy for a long time and only was partially fixed a whole week ago) is to reinforce the OP’s first premise: “Engineers are awesome if you just learn how to play them properly.” That does NOT help our profession’s reputation amongst beginners.

Dunno, Engy was my first class in this game, first MMO I’ve played since MUDding days and after I figured out how to play the class it’s fun. I don’t see how that’s any different from any other class though, really. The other classes I’ve tried really do feel like easy mode though.

Should probably just divide it into 2 kinds.

Peole who wait for things to happen and people who make things happen.

If you look at it closely, those “elite” engineers who thrive are those who have come to accept the shortcomings of the class and think outside of the box. While people were whining about how the engineer class was broken, people like Nisha the Medikat, Teldo, and FiveGauge have created very popular builds. While those builds are not perfect, they were able to make engineers viable when others used to say engineers can’t do anything with its current state. They did not wait for fixes to happen but rather they used what was offered in the table.

I too am curious about the “Bugs” of the profession. Are they truly bugs or just design deficiencies?
Edit: I was always curious, would Adding weapon swap to the Engineer make it OP in any way? I like that we have kits and all, I am enjoying the class immensely so far, even though I am just PVEing atm, but how would being able to swap out the rifle to P/P or P/Sh affect the profession?

The issue with the Engineer can all be derived from one word, balance. What a lot of people do not like is, it sounds like you’re playing the piano with the amount of keys that you have to press to be on par with other classes. Were Warriors or Guardians, you just spam your auto attack with the occasional number 2 and they’re the top dps. To add onto that, we have the most bugs of any class. But, even if they fixed every single bug that is associated with the Engineer, we’re still bogged down by high cool downs, low dps, and useless traits. The only way around the low dps, is to play a glass cannon build or learn to play the kitten piano.
This isn’t me making a fuss over the Engineer, this is me recapping everything people complain about when they play this class. While playing something like a Warrior is easy mode, I find myself bored in minutes. I actually enjoy this class, and when I play other classes, I simply do not get the same amount of enjoyment that I get when playing the Engineer.

"thieves’s bleeds are 10x betfer"

doeesnt that strike you as ovious, intended, and part of the theme of the class? i dont think of an engineer as a bleed specialist, but getting stabby stabbed. million times by a rogue does.

however, your concern crrtainly applies to the FT. how does an FT now just set everything on fire?

im with coglin, i will defend this class till time imemorial, but like.coglin i ecognize thete are faults, but get kitten frustrated with the forum mewling fornthings that dont add up or.make sense.

Specterryu Quipter.8412:

While playing something like a Warrior is easy mode, I find myself bored in minutes. I actually enjoy this class, and when I play other classes, I simply do not get the same amount of enjoyment that I get when playing the Engineer.

Happens to me too. My next highest level alt character is a mesmer and I haven’t played with it in awhile because I was getting bored.

Daemonne,
If you want a list of engineer bugs, someone tries to keep a list up to date on the wiki at http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/User:Bolton/Engineer_bugs so you don’t have to dig around in the bug thread in this forum. It doesn’t seem like the list has been updated since the Jan. 28th patch though since Hair Trigger is still listed yet supposedly fixed. Hrm, Mortar or Supply Crate? And you can just forget about Rifled Turret Barrels if you were hoping for range increases.

Moddo.7105:

Thieves use pistols because mechanics are different and P/D condi for thief is ones best specs for downing players. Thief bleed stacking is 10x better than eng off pistols and lasts longer too. 4s vs 2s. Eng use pistols because of confusion and fire dmg really. If go for stright bleed killing someone pistols are lacking which is autoatack and that is where pistols are weak.

I have a thief, thanks. The point I was referring to was the Skill #1 on both professions, the pistol shot is bugged and shoots at a slower rate then intended. As far as the “thief’s better” can of worms, I disagree. They are both better in different situations. You can say all you want about bleed stacking but your wrong. I can run into a WvW zerg and put 5 bleeds on 17 players. So in that situation I can stack many tomes over, the bleeds a thief can. Single target, thieves win, hands down.

Chaba.5410:

And I answered your question in as reasonable a manner as possible. The only point in arguing specifics (like bringing up FT which was extremely buggy for a long time and only was partially fixed a whole week ago) is to reinforce the OP’s first premise: “Engineers are awesome if you just learn how to play them properly.” That does NOT help our profession’s reputation amongst beginners.

I get it. You are like many posters her, and do not mind blurting out claims, and making generic statements. Yet you back pedal when confronted about it. Check. I am used to that here on the engineer forums.

Daemonne.5018:

I too am curious about the “Bugs” of the profession?

Apparently I am not the only one curious as to what we are pigeon holed into? As you claimed it.

coglin.1496:

Chaba.5410:

And I answered your question in as reasonable a manner as possible. The only point in arguing specifics (like bringing up FT which was extremely buggy for a long time and only was partially fixed a whole week ago) is to reinforce the OP’s first premise: “Engineers are awesome if you just learn how to play them properly.” That does NOT help our profession’s reputation amongst beginners.

I get it. You are like many posters her, and do not mind blurting out claims, and making generic statements. Yet you back pedal when confronted about it. Check. I am used to that here on the engineer forums.

And I get you. You are being disingenuous in an attempt to be right. You KNOW there are skills you avoid using because they are bugged and do not work as expected or found some way to play around them (that beginners without knowledge of these bugs would not even realize) even though the skill is not intended to be played that way. I do NOT need to list them to satisfy meeting your personal rhetorical standards.

Chaba.5410:

And I get you. You are being disingenuous in an attempt to be right. You KNOW there are skills you avoid using because they are bugged and do not work as expected or found some way to play around them (that beginners without knowledge of these bugs would not even realize) even though the skill is not intended to be played that way. I do NOT need to list them to satisfy meeting your personal rhetorical standards.

You can try to spin it how ever you like. I simply ask that if you are going to make a false claim, that you at least offer examples or stop stating your opinion and claiming it as fact.

You will make 6 post to avoid doing that before you will make one explaining. Thats not rhetoric my friend, that is avoidance.

Give it a rest, dude. Now you’re writing passive-aggressive posts rather than agreeing to disagree. I made no false claim. The engineer class has many bugs still outstanding. My opinion was that it is difficult to assess, to answer the question, “Only for Elite Players?” with those bugs still outstanding. The answer to the question should be no if the bugs were all fixed (that is my hope). Right now it looks like the answer is yes because only those elite players sticking with the class are bothering to avoid or workaround bugged skills and traits (and to awesome results). We may use the term “pigeonholing” in different ways, at least get over that term and try to understand what is being explained. It is extremely disappointing that the message on this thread continues to be the elitist one: “Engineers are awesome if you just learn how to play them properly.” That I felt no need to be specific to someone like yourself who knows so much about which bugs the engineer has is not indicative of avoidance, spin, or personal desires.

Anyway, I’m done with this “conversation”.

Engineer does have many bugs, but there are no other classes when you can run up to one of the crystals that the Claw drops, stand there and just spit out bombs like a real sapper. Oh you’re getting attacked? Firebomb+big ‘ol bomb and everything near you is either dead or not near you anymore. It’s definitely not a class for everyone, but I’d think the only ‘classes for everyone’ in this game would be either warrior or guardian considering they’re the most cookie cutter in functionality.

No, engi isnt for elites only. But it has a much higher skillcap than say guardian or thief or mesmer.

coglin.1496:

I have a thief, thanks. The point I was referring to was the Skill #1 on both professions, the pistol shot is bugged and shoots at a slower rate then intended. As far as the “thief’s better” can of worms, I disagree. They are both better in different situations. You can say all you want about bleed stacking but your wrong. I can run into a WvW zerg and put 5 bleeds on 17 players. So in that situation I can stack many tomes over, the bleeds a thief can. Single target, thieves win, hands down.

How does that work out against smaller groups that are actually fighting intelligently and on the same footing gear wise? My condition thief can kill a heavy golem with ONE application of caltrops, which lasts for 14 seconds. That’s bleed and cripple over a fairly large area. The wiki says that each tick is adding 2 stacks of bleed—so 5 doesn’t sound all that impressive.

Engineer pistol #1 is not as impressive 1 v 1 or 1 v 2 although against a thief, we have the ability to have 150 range advantage, 300 if you count the splash radius of the explosion. It is not the only way we can stack bleeds either. I was comparing straight up, the two pistol skills. I can drop Box of nails, which is the same as caltrops in that they cause bleeds and cripple. I drop caltrops just by switching to tool kit with kit refinement, then I can instantly hit #2 and do it again. My point was that with multiple targets, engineer will do more over all damage and with single targets, thieves pistol skills will dominate. Although as far as the bleeds go, caltrop absolutely dominates box of nails. But that is irrelavent, because I was comparing pistol #1 skills.

Comparing what you can do to a golem to a player is unwise. Especially when your asking how skills work against groups fighting intelligently. Golems do not have Elixir X times two and toss elixir R to remove those bleeds instantly. When it comes to
1 v 2,3,4, the engineer has the advantage over the thief.

On a direct comparison of skill to skill you can make comparison of equal skills between thieves and engineers. When you compare them in game play though, your comparing apples to oranges.

coglin.1496:

Engineer pistol #1 is not as impressive 1 v 1 or 1 v 2 although against a thief, we have the ability to have 150 range advantage, 300 if you count the splash radius of the explosion. It is not the only way we can stack bleeds either. I was comparing straight up, the two pistol skills. I can drop Box of nails, which is the same as caltrops in that they cause bleeds and cripple. I drop caltrops just by switching to tool kit with kit refinement, then I can instantly hit #2 and do it again. My point was that with multiple targets, engineer will do more over all damage and with single targets, thieves pistol skills will dominate. Although as far as the bleeds go, caltrop absolutely dominates box of nails. But that is irrelavent, because I was comparing pistol #1 skills.

Comparing what you can do to a golem to a player is unwise. Especially when your asking how skills work against groups fighting intelligently. Golems do not have Elixir X times two and toss elixir R to remove those bleeds instantly. When it comes to
1 v 2,3,4, the engineer has the advantage over the thief.

On a direct comparison of skill to skill you can make comparison of equal skills between thieves and engineers. When you compare them in game play though, your comparing apples to oranges.

Imagine how deadly condi engineer would be if box of nails was as good as thieves caltrops.

wow couldnt help but notice Chabba still didnt answer Coglins question lol all he said was name the bugged traits that pigeon hole us but enough of that engis are the masters of variety your not meant to be pure anything in terms of build spec for dps alone fail spec for support alone fail your supposed to be able to transition in and out of roles depending on the situation and with our kits its easy to do that i agree the learning curves a little steep and i died a lot figuring the engi out but well worth the small amount of extra effort and again i stress i am not an elite player the class has some probs but they all do balance is determined by overall performance if u dont like being a jack of all trades this class is not for you peace to all my engi kin

waka.9826:

Imagine how deadly condi engineer would be if box of nails was as good as thieves caltrops.

In my dreams. But as far as a cripple utility, we can drop ours every 5 seconds. Whats the Caltrops recast, 30s?

Technically it also comes with an entire weapon set and tool belt skill. Admittedly though, the duration of 4s feels crazy low.

Ayestes.1273:

Technically it also comes with an entire weapon set and tool belt skill. Admittedly though, the duration of 4s feels crazy low.

I feel all of our bleeds are too low of a duration. I thinks that is also the general consensus.

coglin.1496:

Engineer pistol #1 is not as impressive 1 v 1 or 1 v 2 although against a thief, we have the ability to have 150 range advantage, 300 if you count the splash radius of the explosion. It is not the only way we can stack bleeds either. I was comparing straight up, the two pistol skills. I can drop Box of nails, which is the same as caltrops in that they cause bleeds and cripple. I drop caltrops just by switching to tool kit with kit refinement, then I can instantly hit #2 and do it again. My point was that with multiple targets, engineer will do more over all damage and with single targets, thieves pistol skills will dominate. Although as far as the bleeds go, caltrop absolutely dominates box of nails. But that is irrelavent, because I was comparing pistol #1 skills.

Comparing what you can do to a golem to a player is unwise. Especially when your asking how skills work against groups fighting intelligently. Golems do not have Elixir X times two and toss elixir R to remove those bleeds instantly. When it comes to
1 v 2,3,4, the engineer has the advantage over the thief.

On a direct comparison of skill to skill you can make comparison of equal skills between thieves and engineers. When you compare them in game play though, your comparing apples to oranges.

I mentioned the golem just to illustrate how much more damaging thief caltrops are than box of nails, since you mentioned being able to stack 5 bleeds on a zerg. Bear in mind that caltrops has a much wider spread, almost covering a point. And while the engineer is spamming toolkit to drop more nails, I can get coverage just from dodging. And so far I haven’t factored in bleeds from death blossom.

“When it comes to
1 v 2,3,4, the engineer has the advantage over the thief.”

I’m not even sure how to respond to this. A thief generally has way more escapes, while bursting harder, than an engineer.

Slan.5496:

“When it comes to
1 v 2,3,4, the engineer has the advantage over the thief.”

I’m not even sure how to respond to this. A thief generally has way more escapes, while bursting harder, than an engineer.

My point exactly. The engineer kills them, at least I do. The thief can burst one down, then stealth and run away.

Engineers dominate thiefs when it comes to AoE damage was my point

Not necessarily all of our bleeds, in the case of Shrapnel Grenades and the Shrapnel Trait I actually think they are simply just too long. In general though, our bleeds need a look over, agreed.

Regarding Thief AoE damage, the Shortbow is surprisingly strong. I’d be curious to see how it actually measured up against our potential AoE combos with a direct damage setup. I honestly would suspect it be pretty close. In terms of AoE conditions though, we win hands down due to cooldowns.

I made an engi recently, and just the other day decided to do some pvp. I first used a P/P cond damage/ elixir build I found around some website. With no experience I charged in smashing buttons like a toddler would do with a new toy! And it kinda worked! Had good fun. Melted people, got melted sometimes, got quite a few times top kills and overall top score.
Then I tried out a PvE build in pvp…the bomb kit whatever it’s called (I’m also using it in pve now)
And Boom! I charged in drop da bombs run like a maniac and blow people up etc…and here again getting good results with little or no experience.
In one match a thieve also said “A pro engi ^^” coz I managed to survive for quite some time in a 1v2 or v3 I don’t remember.
But I’m not good at all, I forget to use half of my skills(I don’t quite know what most of them really do either), sometimes I manage to get some decent skill chains in but it doesn’t happen often.
This was just random pvp so meh who knows..my point was.. not sure
But I really like mah engi now. In pve I’m around lv 40 and enjoying my bomberman.

One thing I don’t like, mostly in pvp, is the downed state..I think I only managed to effectively use skill 3 ONCE..but then I died anyway

Why does every thread turn into a big fight?
Just let ppl state their opinions.

I think everyone can agree on 2 things:

-1) Things like Turrets and their lackluster traits, along with having a utility slot taken up by a kit which have no stunbreakers can sort of pidgeon hole new players into certain builds. Also with our current Trait system you are sometimes forced to put alot of points into certain trees so that you can effectively use a single kit. The most popular builds for the Engineer are the perfect example of why the profession takes a little more effort to get good results. Most of them rely on secondary mechcanics, are very situational and have to be adapted to each situation. You can’t just set a 3 button macro and get free kills like GW2 Rogues can. Lastly the pro/con mechanic of Engineers can be a big turnoff to alot of players, its not just the RNG of Elixirs but the self stun of things like Overcharged Shot & Rocket Boots and the clunkyness of Jump Shot. I am not trying to argue about whether or not the stuns are warranted, but put simply put most ppl don’t like downsides to their skills. ( I bet Thiefs wouldn’t be as popular if their movement speed was drastically reduced when they stealthed or if a D/D Ele fell on their face after they ride the lightning, Or if Thiefs and Warriors both took 2secs to throw up after spinning around in circles)

-2) Despite all of these things Engineers are an excellent profession and the most unique that GW2 has to offer. Time and time again ppl have shown that with a little creativity you can pull some stuff out of the Engineer bag that you never knew was their. Its a profession that once you wrap your head around the strange mechanics you can find alot of niches to be very effective. Engineers can be one of the hardest professions to face in PvP because you don’t really know what they are gonna do. If an Engy is harrassing you with a FT you could say “look at the newb” and go in for an easy kill only to find out he was just baiting you with what you thought was a bugged kit and now you are lying there dead from the nade burst and flame blast he threw in your face.

TLDR: Like every profession Engineer could always use some bugfix luvin and a ride on the balance swing but they are still an awesome profession for average+ gamers. So if you usually start up games and choose Normal or higher difficulty right off the bat then Engineer is right for you. If you always choose Easy you might want try one of the MMO staple classes.

coglin.1496:

Slan.5496:

“When it comes to
1 v 2,3,4, the engineer has the advantage over the thief.”

I’m not even sure how to respond to this. A thief generally has way more escapes, while bursting harder, than an engineer.

My point exactly. The engineer kills them, at least I do. The thief can burst one down, then stealth and run away.

Engineers dominate thiefs when it comes to AoE damage was my point

Again, is this WvW or Spvp? I’m not seeing engis running on to a point in spvp and burning down 2-4 people at once with aoe dmg. Unless they’re drunk or afk or something.

Your point is shifting around. I responded about the bleeds. Now you’re talking about aoe dmg in general. Yeah the engi can pump out higher raw numbers. But the thief can deliver faster, sustained bleeds with a much greater degree of surviveability. If you start to get focused, you run away…and then spam clusterbomb. My goal was never to burst down one target. It was to do as musc aoe dmg as possible.

coglin.1496:

Shhhh, do not post that here. You might plant a seed of doubt in the mind of all the trolling QQers. You know, the ones who spam remakes of the same thread day after day. The last thing you want to do is demonstrate that the profession is solid.

Because that demonstrates the profession is solid right?

The issue isn’t that the profession is not solid. It’s that it isn’t competitive and could use some buffs. But you appear to have a major axe to grind about people disagreeing with your viewpoint.