Guild Wars 2

Edit: Fixed a mistake in the calculation of crits. Most of the text below is no longer correct. Read my next post for further information. Also attached the new file so download again if you want to update.

I did a little calculation on the viability of flamethrower dps. I did it mainly because I wanted to mess around in matlab/freemat a bit so probably it is not 100% correct. Overall, it is a simple DPS comparison of rifle autoattack vs. FT autoattack for my equipment based on the source material available to me.
Note, that this is mainly for PvE. I don’t pvp/wvw much and I’m sure the FT has other uses and roles there, so I’d prefer leaving pvp out of this.

TLDR conclusions:
With my equipment, I’d need around 50 might stacks to make FT do the same DPS as rifle’s autoattack.
Even taking into consideration additional factors (+15% dmg instead of +10%, higher chance for procs, might-stacking, caused vulnerability stacks), this simply doesn’t make the FT worth it to me.
Note: This does not mean, that it can’t be used for things like lifesteal food or stacking might to use with other weapons.

So how does it work?
In the attacked .txt file, there is some very crude code you can copy and edit with any editor and execute with freemat (free) or matlab. It is nothing that couldn’t be done in excel or whatever, but as I said, its main purpose was to mess around with matlab.
The sources used are also linked/mentioned in that file.

What it takes into account: Normalized for crit% and critdmg%. 1 s burn per 2.5 sec burst for FT. Decreased stats from rifle. Might stacking.
What it does not take into account: caused Vulnerability, increased chance for procs, %-increases for either weapon, other abilities than autoattack
What works? what doesn’t?: calculation of tooltip damage is pretty accurate, but overall the numbers are a few % off. Also, DPS is off by a factor of 10-20 but ratio of dps is still the same.

My stats with rifle equipped: Currently 1918 power, 52% crit and 46% critdmg from a mix of soldier/knight items and 10/30/0/0/30 traits. Certainly not minmaxed but the mix has suited me up to now.
I’d really like to know your stats so I can check if the results are better with other builds.

Long conclusions:
My calculated rifle DPS is much higher than my calculated FT dps. This coincides with my (short) tests of kill time vs. mobs. According to the calculations, I’d need around 50 stacks of might to pull even.
Even other factors like vulnerability stacks, slightly higher damage multiplier from traits, etc. that are normally in favor or the FT, can’t even out such an impossible number.

Believe me, I’d love to play FT. I used it a lot in dungeons because it is a very fun weapon but from a DPS perspective, I just don’t see any benefit in it. However, I won’t use grenades either despite their dps potential because if I’d love pressing 1, I’d play Rift instead.
So rifle it is for me then. Even though rifle is still very mediocre when compared to other classes.

So what is the FT good for then? What can it be used for?
-Abusing life steal foods (will be fixed, just wait for it)
-Stacking might for other weapons
-Providing a few stacks of vulnerability if there aren’t many other sources
-AoE on some groups
-Dmg on reflect-mobs like jade colossi (though prybar is probably better for that)
-Getting a little bit of extra toughness
-a lot of fun to use compared to grenades or rifle

What makes the FT bad/unviable? Where could it be improved?
-Damage coefficient is simply too low (really needs to be fixed. For all of our kits.)
-Lost stats and low weapon damage (compared to exotic weapons) hurt it a lot (and the other kits, too)
-Elementalists locking up burn debuff decrease dps further
-#2’s design simply doesn’t work
-short/very short range compared to other weapons can be problematic in some fights

So… let me know what stats you have with your builds etc. I’d expect the difference to be smaller on defensive builds or people with lower than exotic equip (green weapon or such) and much bigger on berserker/rampager builds, simply due to the bad coefficient of the FT’s attacks and because of the burn base damage (that benefits defensive builds a lot more).

This isn’t to discourage anyone from using the FT. It is a lot of fun to use so go for it if you feel like it. Just trying to theorycraft a little (not enough of that without dps-meters etc.).

I like Flame thrower my build uses it heavily, but it is inconsistent to hit, very buggy, and very minimal range (so it has limited usage especially in dungeons)

It is really good at killing multiple mobs at once pretty fast for me.

I use orbs on my Armor instead of sigils because i find it rounds my stats out three times better than sigils ever do..

My build like or hate it, i seem to do quite well as support in Dungeons.
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fcQQFAUlIqSXHwyuF1LJxoCfG0D9W37KSBmb8nCsF

Its a Variation of this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nf-lYhdhGNw

Bare in mind mines pure support, not pure DPS..but it seems quite good at condition and critical..

But you are comparing one skill with single target and another with multiple target effect, it’s pretty obvious multiple target and AoE skills do less damage ._.

Since you’re already 30 deep in the firearms tree for juggernaut, you’re certainly not hurt by grabbing the +10% rifle damage and -20% rifle cooldown traits on the way. Even if you get the +15% FT damage trait in the alchemy line (possibly on the way to HGH) you still have fairly decent option-build. FT will generally outperform rifle in grouped AOE situations even with rifle’s piercing (FT has a much wider spread), and rifle will thankfully prove efficient on single-target and boss fights where you’re just not probably going to want to stand up in their face. Neither is going to offer amazingly competitive DPS, and that’s a downright pity, but engineers still bring a lot of utility and are surprisingly decent survivors to help the rest of the party, so your slot is by no means wasted (elixir S is my hero, especially when needing to charge into danger to res someone else). You also bring a net immobilize, knockback, fire combo field, and instant blind to the table with rifle/FT.

Additionally you can swap to FT specifically to build up might for a rifle combo, which while incredibly annoying to actually do, it can still boost your strength up a bit. Still, you don’t have to worry about not using FT if you’re on a boss, or not using rifle if powering down mobs.

Shivenis.3761:

But you are comparing one skill with single target and another with multiple target effect, it’s pretty obvious multiple target and AoE skills do less damage ._.

The rifle pierces.

Besides, most weapons in the game can hit more than one enemy with their #1 attack. It sucks that some don’t, but you can’t balance the FT against a single-target weapon, when so many other AoE/cone/multi-hit weapons out there are superior to the rifle. You’re dooming the FT kit to be inferior forever if you do that.

-Travail.

Panzen.4625:

I did a little calculation on the viability of flamethrower dps. I did it mainly because I wanted to mess around in matlab/freemat a bit so probably it is not 100% correct.

So how does it work?
In the attacked .txt file, there is some very crude code you can copy and edit with any editor and execute with freemat (free) or matlab. It is nothing that couldn’t be done in excel or whatever, but as I said, its main purpose was to mess around with matlab.
The sources used are also linked/mentioned in that file.
……

What it does not take into account: caused Vulnerability, increased chance for procs, %-increases for either weapon, other abilities than autoattack

My stats with rifle equipped: Currently 1918 power, 52% crit and 46% critdmg from a mix of soldier/knight items and 10/30/0/0/30 traits. Certainly not minmaxed but the mix has suited me up to now.

Why did you post this trash if you:
1. dont account for any of the reasons you use Ft over other weapons or kits. abilities, procs chances
2. your build for is all wrong. Fun fact the 25 point alchemy ability increases damage by 1% per stack of might

These stay out of theory craft if you arnt going to be serious about it. All you have done today is set the engineer community back months as idiots now can point to your useless misinformation and scream to the high heaven like it was fact.

szar.9054:

Panzen.4625:

I did a little calculation on the viability of flamethrower dps. I did it mainly because I wanted to mess around in matlab/freemat a bit so probably it is not 100% correct.

So how does it work?
In the attacked .txt file, there is some very crude code you can copy and edit with any editor and execute with freemat (free) or matlab. It is nothing that couldn’t be done in excel or whatever, but as I said, its main purpose was to mess around with matlab.
The sources used are also linked/mentioned in that file.
……

What it does not take into account: caused Vulnerability, increased chance for procs, %-increases for either weapon, other abilities than autoattack

My stats with rifle equipped: Currently 1918 power, 52% crit and 46% critdmg from a mix of soldier/knight items and 10/30/0/0/30 traits. Certainly not minmaxed but the mix has suited me up to now.

Why did you post this trash if you:
1. dont account for any of the reasons you use Ft over other weapons or kits. abilities, procs chances
2. your build for is all wrong. Fun fact the 25 point alchemy ability increases damage by 1% per stack of might

These stay out of theory craft if you arnt going to be serious about it. All you have done today is set the engineer community back months as idiots now can point to your useless misinformation and scream to the high heaven like it was fact.

no. might is 1 boon. 1 stack or 25 stacks. 1 boon.

i though it was supposed to be High dmg if you had to go melee range… i mean Greatswords hits 500% harder than FT but we still have to be close to them to dmg close enough for them to Deal dmg to us

Szar run as FAASST as you can into the wall right to you

( i am talking pvp here not pve yes i still use it for the knock back and napalam and sometimes blind but why did they put FT Nr 1 skill only for pve mobs or farming HELLO we others might wanna pvp on something else rather than rifle or P/P focusing than just change tool kit – block – magnet – prybar )

i mean do anyone use kits NR 1 skill or just the utilities? JUST delete the Nr 1 skill and add another utility of those crappy as kittens then it gets boring )

Travail.7390:

Shivenis.3761:

But you are comparing one skill with single target and another with multiple target effect, it’s pretty obvious multiple target and AoE skills do less damage ._.

The rifle pierces.

Besides, most weapons in the game can hit more than one enemy with their #1 attack. It sucks that some don’t, but you can’t balance the FT against a single-target weapon, when so many other AoE/cone/multi-hit weapons out there are superior to the rifle. You’re dooming the FT kit to be inferior forever if you do that.

-Travail.

I know, but it’s not the same a line effect than a cone… Anyway I don’t saying FT it’s ok, just I don’t think they aren’t two skills you can compare just with numbers.

Kuruptz.4782:

i though it was supposed to be High dmg if you had to go melee range… i mean Greatswords hits 500% harder than FT but we still have to be close to them to dmg close enough for them to Deal dmg to us

That’s a good point

I fixed a mistake that was causing crits to be too important, which dwarfed the FT’s burn damage and gave the rifle an advantage (because of the weapon stats). This also fixed the DPS being too high by a factor of 10-20orwhatever. As such, many of my conclusions are incorrect. I’m leaving them up there anyways, new results are in this post.

My newest numbers show, that at about 19 might stacks, the FT is equal to the rifle’s DPS. At higher might stacks, the FT deals more damage. Keep in mind, that this is for my build and those numbers are without the 10%/15% multipliers from traits.
If I’d go 20 into elixirs, I’d also lose some power and some crit damage, so numbers for that would also look a bit different. Using runes for might stacking would also decrease my base stats. Overall, it will probably even out around 25 stacks or so.

This means, that the flamethrower is “viable” if used with a might stacking build. However, with high stacks of might the rifle would gain some ground because of its higher multiplier, so a build based around stacking might, then switching to Rifle, would yield the best results (see that juggernaut pvp build posted on these boards a few days ago). I’m also expecting this to be much more interesting to play than sticking to one of the two and would also be quite flexible.
Overall, the FT builds seem to require a lot more commitment in gear, rune and trait choice than simply shooting your rifle.

szar

Why did you post this trash if you:
1. dont account for any of the reasons you use Ft over other weapons or kits. abilities, procs chances
2. your build for is all wrong. Fun fact the 25 point alchemy ability increases damage by 1% per stack of might

These stay out of theory craft if you arnt going to be serious about it. All you have done today is set the engineer community back months as idiots now can point to your useless misinformation and scream to the high heaven like it was fact.

I completely understand your sentiment but also want to emphasize, that there is a severe lack of theorycraft on these forums. Now we are at least discussing about it which is a much better state than before with everyone being uncertain about which build to use because of the grenade changes.
Furthermore, one cannot be always right, as you can see in my more recent conclusions.
However, as to your other points mentioned:
1. Other abilities: Rifle#3 and #5 both have very high coefficients, just as FT#2 (if a perfect hit). Using either of those, however, requires quite some mobility and other circumstances not always given in a fight and even then the autoattack damage is still the largest portion of the damage. As above, a build using both can probably make good use out of both their strengths.
2. Your trait is all wrong. And of course my build is wrong, because it doesn’t use either of the multipliers to keep it simple. Overall, it is just and approximation. This is also why I didn’t mention numbers in my posts other than the required number of might stacks.

As for “setting people back”, no effort of mine could set the “engineer community” back further than it already is. As I mentioned, there is a severe lack of calculations on these boards. Condemning people for trying to make the best out of the scarce information available isn’t exactly changing things for the better either but just keeping people in the dark.
Other than that, please refrain from using such an agressive posting style. It doesn’t help anyone here.

Panzen.4625:

Other than that, please refrain from using such an agressive posting style. It doesn’t help anyone here.

This.

Let’s keep things civil between each other; I’ve grown quite fond of the Engineer community here and its tendency to avoid the “leet” behaviours seen elsewhere. If you disagree with a set of numbers, provide your own or, at the very least, avoid being rude to someone … even if they have forgotten to carry the 1.

you have to use the multipliers, they change everything.

And fully as well. It does open up many build options. 1% per boon, 5% with might, 10% at max hp. 10% at full end, or 5% at not full end.. 5% force.
But they multiply into each other.
10%* 5%* 5%* 5%* 5%* 5%
rifle mod, bleeding, force, rune of str, 5% end not full, 5% energy conversion. for rifle.
+ 40.4% damage for rifle direct damage.
15%* 5%* 5%* 5%* 5%* 5%
deadly mixture, bleeding, force, rune of str, 5% end not full, 5% energy conversion for flamethrower
+ 46.7% damage for flamethrower.
If we swap to a 10% via end full, and/or scholar, a large impact as well.
This 40-47% damage increase does not effect condition damage, further reducing the burns relevance.

Vul will be even for both direct damage, although rifle does have much easier access to sitting duck.
And vul does not effect condition damage either.

Oh thanks for putting that together! Really helps me evaluate!

Presumably weapon stats on kits will help this. Hopefully we get that sooner than later.

Casia.4281:

But they multiply into each other.
10%* 5%* 5%* 5%* 5%* 5%

Have you actually tested that they multiply or is this from wiki?

Which Runes?

6 x Strength (+20% might duration, 165 power, 3% chance to gain might when hit, +5% damage with might)

2 x Strength, Fire, and Hoelbrak which stack 20% might for each pair (75 power, 60% might duration)

hydeaut.1758:

Casia.4281:

But they multiply into each other.
10%* 5%* 5%* 5%* 5%* 5%

Have you actually tested that they multiply or is this from wiki?

Tested. ( ok, not ALL of them ) I had thought they added, previously.
Tested force, 5% bleeding, 10% rifle mod, 10% end full, and 1% per boon in mists.
As well as warrior % mods.

165 power, 5% damage is almost certainly much more

Sigil of Battle is 3 stacks of might (20 second duration) on weapon swap with a 10 second cooldown.
Sigil of Strength is a 30% on crit to gain 1 stack of might (10 second duration) with a 2 second cooldown.
Which one do you like for a might-stacking, Juggernaut build (assuming Sigil of Force is already on the other weapon)?

Just a note. tested. FT was not changed.
Flamethrower: 969 weapon damage
FT1 1.5p over 10 hits, 2.5cast, 1s burn at end. tooltip lies about 5 attacks/s, 10per 2.5 is 4)
FT2 .75p ball, 1.75 blast.

Dunnar.8420:

Sigil of Battle is 3 stacks of might (20 second duration) on weapon swap with a 10 second cooldown.
Sigil of Strength is a 30% on crit to gain 1 stack of might (10 second duration) with a 2 second cooldown.
Which one do you like for a might-stacking, Juggernaut build (assuming Sigil of Force is already on the other weapon)?

I was trying out a major sigil of strength (yeah I’m poor) on the FT… I think it’s decent for PvE in longer fights, but I think I would prefer the sigil of battle over it in WvWvW or PvP.

Dunnar.8420:

Sigil of Battle is 3 stacks of might (20 second duration) on weapon swap with a 10 second cooldown.
Sigil of Strength is a 30% on crit to gain 1 stack of might (10 second duration) with a 2 second cooldown.
Which one do you like for a might-stacking, Juggernaut build (assuming Sigil of Force is already on the other weapon)?

Sigil of Battle with +might duration can give you a guaranteed 9 stacks of might while in combat. Even with +60% might duration, at best Sigil of Strength will give you 8 stacks under perfect conditions. Sigil of Battle doesn’t rely on RNG, and you also don’t need high precision to take advantage of it’s effect.

IMO, Sigil of Strength is for characters that don’t swap weapons very often. Something like a Shortbow Ranger, maybe, or an Engineer running zero kits (HGH might stacking p/p or rifle builds.)

-Travail.