Guild Wars 2

nakoda.4213:

why on EARTH do people want the old jugg back?

yay i have stability!! so I can stand here and not be knocked down OR get away while I eat this damage.

The reason is that FT needs a specific niche. If I’m defending something in WvW, the enemy wants to come to me, especially around doors or lords. Juggernaut with passive Protection and Stability would give you superior staying power in those situations, in return for not being able to use the FT offensively.

It’d be an actual choice trait. Powerful, but also making the weapon highly specialized.

I I want to use Flamethrower as a primary weapon I should be able to do so! I have an idea of a special signet posted here:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/Must-Have-New-elite-skill-SIGNET/first#post2037985

Problem with FT is that it gets overshadowed by grenade kit in both pwr and condition dmg also in certain degree by bomb kit in melee range so it’s left as a bit niche kit. But it still can be excellent tool in certain situations I myself have been running with it in wvwvw and just loving it, its fast,mobile and has nice utility, perfect for running with semi-organized groups.
Im running tankish close to 2.5k armor 20k+ hp, might staking build and flame blast usually crits around 4-5k or 6k+ for upleveled’s wihch is pretty darn nice for under 5sec cd aoe and #1 is also strong in they current lag wars we have going on where autoattack is often the only skill we can really use. After running nades both 100nades and HgH for so long FT is just perfect lazymans zerging weapon.

nakoda.4213:

that’s because the FT is not a “DPS” kit…

Well, look at it this way:

What is the purpose of skill 1? AoE multi-procing damage right?

What is the purpose of skill 2? AoE damage.

What is the purpose of skill 4? Combo field and AoE damage.

What does Juggernaut do? Gives you stacks of might (More damage).

What does Deadly mixture do? Make you deal more damage.

What does reduced recharge allow for? More damage.

Everything in this kit points to dealing more damage, yet when compared to the utility and amazingness of grenades, it’s no contest. It’s not just a problem of needing more damage, it’s a problem of needing it’s own niche while dealing comparable damage. To be effective, you need to be stacking lots of might and have 25 stacks of bloodlust. Even then, you still are held back by skill 4 being terrible, and damage that’s still inferior to grenades.

I’ve been swapping back n’ forth between FT & grenades pretty regularly. I’ve found that I can keep the same gear (zerker/rampager mix, altruism runes, battle sigil) with both. ‘Nades are a straight ranged damage kit. I use EG with FT and tend to play a more support style. Since FT’s damage can’t match grenades, even with a few dedicated traits, I like to use it to its fullest potential: spread burning & vuln, create fire combo field, pbaoe blind, pressure reduction knockback, sawp to EG heal field, EG weakness/poison/cripple, back to FT, repeat.

In CoE I take FT/EG and faceroll the dungeon. In CoF, I prefer to keep my range and mobility and use grenades.

Seras.5702:

I’ve been swapping back n’ forth between FT & grenades pretty regularly. I’ve found that I can keep the same gear (zerker/rampager mix, altruism runes, battle sigil) with both. ‘Nades are a straight ranged damage kit. I use EG with FT and tend to play a more support style. Since FT’s damage can’t match grenades, even with a few dedicated traits, I like to use it to its fullest potential: spread burning & vuln, create fire combo field, pbaoe blind, pressure reduction knockback, sawp to EG heal field, EG weakness/poison/cripple, back to FT, repeat.

In CoE I take FT/EG and faceroll the dungeon. In CoF, I prefer to keep my range and mobility and use grenades.

Why not just use Grenades with Elixir Gun? That’s what I do and it works great.

Kamahl.3621:

This would be valid, if Bomb Kit didn’t do the exact same scenario better. I always just swap to BK and change out Shrapnel for larger radii, and mindlessly push 1 on top of my teammates. Hits 5 enemies instead of 3, for more damage, in a full 360 degree spread. Don’t have to turn, or reposition, or anything. Just make sure your bombs keep coming.

Because no PvE bosses require you to reposition yourself, ever. They all allow you to stand there and spam #1 over and over. Totally.

I like the Bomb Kit. I really do. I used it a lot while leveling. But once I hit level 80 and started running dungeons, it became a whole lot less efficient. I think that’s a conclusion most other players have made, because I don’t really see any Engineers use it. When I see a kit Engineer it’s either the Grenade Kit or the Flamethrower.

in sPvP Bomb kit is very strong. Many people use it

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Grenade kit does literally all of that. It stacks 14 vulnerability on average (25 spikes). 3 stacks of bleeding minimum every 6 seconds, great direct damage, burning from traits, chilled, poison and blind. Did I mention you’re 1,500 range away?

…And?

Air Blast is a 15 (or 12) second knockback/interrupt. It is the best one we have. Let me repeat that for you: It is the best knockback that Engineers have. It can additionally be used as a projectile reflect.

Napalm is tied with Hallowed Ground as the longest duration Fire field in the game—on a third of the cooldown. With a Hammer Guardian and myself we get our group to 18-21 stacks of Might no problem. But to you it’s not worth using. Apparently.

Smoke Vent may not offer a lot currently, but right now it is still a skill that can blind foes while we are stunned, which has saved me from being downed a lot more times than I can count.

Juggernaut gives 200 passive Toughness, which means you’re significantly more survivable with the Flamethrower than you are with the Grenade Kit when wearing full Berserker/Rampager gear.

You just are. Do you do as much damage? No. Of course not. Because the Flamethrower falls under “tanky DPS” while the Grenade Kit screams “glass cannon.” The Grenade Kit is the best ranged DPS in the entire game. Of course it will outperform the Flamethrower and it always should. If that’s your preference then continue to use the Grenade Kit. But don’t come on here, on the official forums, saying that the Flamethrower doesn’t offer any DPS at all—or that my DPS is “not helpful.”

It’s hyperbole.

Lupanic.6502:

in sPvP Bomb kit is very strong. Many people use it

For sure. I use it all the time in sPvP.

But I was talking about PvE.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Kamahl.3621:

This would be valid, if Bomb Kit didn’t do the exact same scenario better. I always just swap to BK and change out Shrapnel for larger radii, and mindlessly push 1 on top of my teammates. Hits 5 enemies instead of 3, for more damage, in a full 360 degree spread. Don’t have to turn, or reposition, or anything. Just make sure your bombs keep coming.

Because no PvE bosses require you to reposition yourself, ever. They all allow you to stand there and spam #1 over and over. Totally.

I like the Bomb Kit. I really do. I used it a lot while leveling. But once I hit level 80 and started running dungeons, it became a whole lot less efficient. I think that’s a conclusion most other players have made, because I don’t really see any Engineers use it. When I see a kit Engineer it’s either the Grenade Kit or the Flamethrower.

I have to agree. Bomb Kit is one of the riskiest Kits to run in dungeons, and nigh-on worthless in WvW also, because you take on the risks of being in melee whilst lacking a rapid gap closer or creator within the kit. At least with Flamethrower you have the luxury of having an increased reaction window thanks to a greater range, and Air Blast and Smoke Vent for when things go south. Not that it’s utterly worthless – see Amadeus’s Bomb Kit/Net turret confusion stacking build – but it certainly entails taking on significant risk.

Phineas Poe.3018:

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Grenade kit does literally all of that. It stacks 14 vulnerability on average (25 spikes). 3 stacks of bleeding minimum every 6 seconds, great direct damage, burning from traits, chilled, poison and blind. Did I mention you’re 1,500 range away?

…And?

Air Blast is a 15 (or 12) second knockback/interrupt. It is the best one we have. Let me repeat that for you: It is the best knockback that Engineers have. It can additionally be used as a projectile reflect.

Napalm is tied with Hallowed Ground as the longest duration Fire field in the game—on a third of the cooldown. With a Hammer Guardian and myself we get our group to 18-21 stacks of Might no problem. But to you it’s not worth using. Apparently.

Smoke Vent may not offer a lot currently, but right now it is still a skill that can blind foes while we are stunned, which has saved me from being downed a lot more times than I can count.

Juggernaut gives 200 passive Toughness, which means you’re significantly more survivable with the Flamethrower than you are with the Grenade Kit when wearing full Berserker/Rampager gear.

You just are. Do you do as much damage? No. Of course not. Because the Flamethrower falls under “tanky DPS” while the Grenade Kit screams “glass cannon.” The Grenade Kit is the best ranged DPS in the entire game. Of course it will outperform the Flamethrower and it always should. If that’s your preference then continue to use the Grenade Kit. But don’t come on here, on the official forums, saying that the Flamethrower doesn’t offer any DPS at all—or that my DPS is “not helpful.”

It’s hyperbole.

Let’s break up the argument a bit:

PvE:

Why on earth would ~10% less damage matter (200 toughness = ~10% less damage)? Anything that’s remotely difficult is going to be doing such high damage that being that close is nearly suicide unless you’re full tank. If it’s not difficult content, then again, 10% less damage doesn’t matter. We’re also ignoring the fact that if you are nuking from 1,500 range, nothing is attacking you.

WvW:

For charges, these end up being semi-equal. Flamethrower is a bit better at tagging and grenade kit is better for damage and snare. Air blast isn’t extremely useful for charges, but it tends to shine more for keeping people charging out of a point. Although, 5 target limit makes that kinda moot. Grenade kit is a bit better here because it can completely deny that area by spam.

PvP:

HGH Grenade? Crit damage grenades? 100 nades? There’s really no contest here unless you’re using it for utility and the toolbelt skill for condition damage.

Is air blast the best CC we have? Sort of. It really depends on what you’re fighting. If you’re fighting 1v1, I think overcharged shot does the job better since you can immobilize them as they’re standing up. I will say this though, it’s an amazing skill and I definitely agree it’s one of the best parts of flamethrower.

Smoke Vent is actually a decent skill. It’s really good for stomping people in PvP (Guardians, Rangers, Engineers, Warriors).

Napalm is awful. No. Just awful. Lemme break it down again:

PvE:

If you are prestacking might, there are many other options for fire fields. At this point it doesn’t really matter. Nothing is attacking you.

If you are stacking mid fight, you are spending time and recharges on getting a few stacks of might, which is approximately 2% more damage. Thing is, during this time, you could be attacking, increasing the party damage by A LOT more. Skills like Empower do this MUCH better (12 stacks, real quick). HGH is a decent way to do this too (Thrown elixirs).

This is low damage as any other burning damage from the group will either be overridden or will override this. It’s also really not that incredible of damage.

WvW:

All might stacks are prefight. It doesn’t matter what fire field you use. Everyone is throwing them down and everyone is blast finishing.

Using this for damage in WvW makes absolutely no sense.

PvP:

If you are prestacking, it’s functional, and you can always just switch it out before the battle starts.

If you are stacking in battle, give up. Battles are way to mobile and active for that to be a good idea.

If you attempt to use this for damage…No. No one will ever stand in a wall like this. And if they do, they take what? 500-800 damage once? You have no snares to keep them in it.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Why not just use Grenades with Elixir Gun? That’s what I do and it works great.

Been thinking about it. Didn’t know if it’d still be as good without the traits that I get by default with FT. I suppose I’d still have #5 for heals, just not on the reduced CD. I’ve been experimenting with that 3rd utility. Bomb kit for fire bomb/BoB, EG for Super Elixir, Elixir U for quickness/reflect. Does U work very well with grenades due to the nature of their mechanics?

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Why on earth would ~10% less damage matter (200 toughness = ~10% less damage)? Anything that’s remotely difficult is going to be doing such high damage that being that close is nearly suicide unless you’re full tank. If it’s not difficult content, then again, 10% less damage doesn’t matter.

I beg to differ.

200 Toughness is a huge change in damage reduction. Just watch a glass cannon Warrior versus one wearing Knight’s insignia armor with Berserker weapons and trinkets. Toughness helps.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

We’re also ignoring the fact that if you are nuking from 1,500 range, nothing is attacking you.

This is so false. What, do you run nothing but CoF all day and think the rest of PvE is like that? Not only are there plenty of bosses in this game that have mechanics that injure both melee and ranged classes alike, but there are several in this game that require you to stand in melee range otherwise you would die.

The idea that Grenade Kit Engineers just stroll through PvE content from 1,500 range never having to worry about anything is just as flawed as saying that Bomb Kit Engineers just faceroll PvE pressing 1 over and over, never having to re-orient themselves or dodge AoE.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

If you are stacking mid fight, you are spending time and recharges on getting a few stacks of might, which is approximately 2% more damage. Thing is, during this time, you could be attacking, increasing the party damage by A LOT more. Skills like Empower do this MUCH better (12 stacks, real quick). HGH is a decent way to do this too (Thrown elixirs).

What?

The Healing Turret can be placed in half a second. Dropping it procs Altruism’s 3 stacks of Might and Fury along with detonating it in Napalm for another Area Might. And Acid Bomb does A LOT of damage when you spec for Power and Critical Damage, doing over 2.5K damage a second on top of another Area Might.

It takes me literally no time at all to do this. Like two seconds.

By the way: Empower’s stacks of Might only last 10 seconds. Area Might stacks through Blast finishers last 20. So no: Empower is not a better option. I have a level 80 Guardian and use it more for its procs with Altruistic Healing than the Might itself. It disappears too fast.

Seras.5702:

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Why not just use Grenades with Elixir Gun? That’s what I do and it works great.

Been thinking about it. Didn’t know if it’d still be as good without the traits that I get by default with FT. I suppose I’d still have #5 for heals, just not on the reduced CD. I’ve been experimenting with that 3rd utility. Bomb kit for fire bomb/BoB, EG for Super Elixir, Elixir U for quickness/reflect. Does U work very well with grenades due to the nature of their mechanics?

Very well. I use it more for Toss Elixir U, but the quickness is great from far away.

This is so false. What, do you run nothing but CoF all day and think the rest of PvE is like that? Not only are there plenty of bosses in this game that have mechanics that injure both melee and ranged classes alike, but there are several in this game that require you to stand in melee range otherwise you would die.
The idea that Grenade Kit Engineers just stroll through PvE content from 1,500 range never having to worry about anything is just as flawed as saying that Bomb Kit Engineers just faceroll PvE pressing 1 over and over, never having to re-orient themselves or dodge AoE.

Uhh. Yeah. I do that all the time. There really aren’t that many bosses that require melee range. Subject Alpha is about all I can think of atm. Most others are MUCH easier from a range. Melee is generally suicide without significant defense. Also, it’s not like grenades are like Arrow Carts. We can deal damage up close and personal too.

What?
The Healing Turret can be placed in half a second. Dropping it procs Altruism’s 3 stacks of Might and Fury along with detonating it in Napalm for another Area Might. And Acid Bomb does A LOT of damage when you spec for Power and Critical Damage, doing over 2.5K damage a second on top of another Area Might.
It takes me literally no time at all to do this. Like two seconds.

Or you could take Med kit and get those 3 stacks every 10 seconds instead of every 15-20. Instead of flamethrower, you could take Elixir U for amazing party defense, Elixir S for an easy res, Elixir Gun…the list goes on. Taking flamethrower for the fire field is a waste of a skill slot.

A lot of the arguments you’re making are things that could be done with a Grenade Kit + Skill combo. The only thing you’ve say for Flamethrower is that it has a great CC (which it does) and a long fire field (which it does). Grenade Kit’s list of useful stuff goes on and on and on. Yeah. You could use Acid Bomb for a great 2.5k damage (I’ve seen it, it’s great). I could do that with grenade kit too (Run in, pop it off, and spam more). I wouldn’t even need to run back in to deal damage. I could just continue spamming grenades.

I looked deeper into EG and didn’t realize #5 removes conditions on initial impact. That, plus Phineas’ statement about Acid Bomb, made up my mind. Bringing EG.

@Phineas: I’ll admit, I don’t pay attention too much to the floating numbers in dungeons. I only used Acid Bomb as an escape and/or blast finisher. Never paid attention to its damage because the tooltip makes it seem so low. I’m assuming each tick acts like a physical attack and not a condition so they can each crit? 2.5k seems like an awful lot.

First of all, the flamethrower has horrible damage ratios.

Flame jet has a measly ratio of 0.14 per hit, for a total of 10 hits over 2 1/4 seconds that is only a ratio of 0.62 per second. Grenade Kit’s Grenade does 0.35 per grenade per second, so even with two grenades you’re already over and you’re hitting from range.

And it gets worse from there, the flamethrower kit has only one other damaging ability out of 6 total! Flame Blast has a good ratio when you hit with both parts but it’s not enough to make up for the rest of the kit’s lack of damage.

So, the flamethrower isnt’a great direct damage weapon, maybe it’s good at condition damage?

Not really, it stacks too much burning and nothing else. With just flame blast you have 1/2.25 seconds or 44% uptime of burning. Add in burning from incendiary powder or napalm and you have easy 100% uptime without any condition duration.

With two easily accessible options to get 100% uptime what’s the point of incendiary ammo? 9 seconds of burning every 60 seconds is very weak.

Ok, so it’s not really a great damage, or condition damage weapon. Really people grab it for it’s utility….

Smoke vent is nice, instant cast blind, but still not better than flash grenades due to the cooldown. Air blast does no damage, only stacks more burning, and Napalm, while it is a fire field, also only stacks burning.

Compare napalm to mesmer’s temporal curtain, it’s on a shorter cooldown, applies cripple and grants swiftness, is also a combo field and it can be reactivated to pull enemies.

Overall the flamethrower lacks in every area. It does very little direct damage, stacks a condition which benefits very little from stacking and sacrifices a lot for utility, including direct damage on most of it’s abilities.

Quetz.4389:

First of all, the flamethrower has horrible damage ratios.

Flame jet has a measly ratio of 0.14 per hit, for a total of 10 hits over 2 1/4 seconds that is only a ratio of 0.62 per second. Grenade Kit’s Grenade does 0.35 per grenade per second, so even with two grenades you’re already over and you’re hitting from range.

…

I don’t even know what this means. Ratio of what to what? power:damage?

Seras.5702:

Quetz.4389:

First of all, the flamethrower has horrible damage ratios.

Flame jet has a measly ratio of 0.14 per hit, for a total of 10 hits over 2 1/4 seconds that is only a ratio of 0.62 per second. Grenade Kit’s Grenade does 0.35 per grenade per second, so even with two grenades you’re already over and you’re hitting from range.

…

I don’t even know what this means. Ratio of what to what? power:damage?

The damage formula is:

Damage done = (weapon damage) * Power * (skill-specific coefficient) / (target’s Armor)

Each skill has a unique coefficient, for the flamethrower flame jet it’s 0.14 per hit and it hits 10 times over 2 1/4 seconds.

So from the formula the skill coefficient directly affects how well the weapon scales with additional power.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Because no PvE bosses require you to reposition yourself, ever. They all allow you to stand there and spam #1 over and over. Totally.

I like the Bomb Kit. I really do. I used it a lot while leveling. But once I hit level 80 and started running dungeons, it became a whole lot less efficient. I think that’s a conclusion most other players have made, because I don’t really see any Engineers use it. When I see a kit Engineer it’s either the Grenade Kit or the Flamethrower.

Way to take my quote out of context. This was with reference to the CoE bomb golem defense part. If you’re using flamethrower 1 on bosses, that’s incredibly inept. Grenades hit harder and stack more conditions, and rifle does flat out more DPS on the auto, not to mention both of the mentioned weapons have some hard CC attached, whereas the Flamethrower’s CC is defiant-restricted.

Quetz.4389:

The damage formula is:

Damage done = (weapon damage) * Power * (skill-specific coefficient) / (target’s Armor)

Each skill has a unique coefficient, for the flamethrower flame jet it’s 0.14 per hit and it hits 10 times over 2 1/4 seconds.

So from the formula the skill coefficient directly affects how well the weapon scales with additional power.

So applying a little algebra, the damage done for a use of the flame jet is:

Damage done = N * (weapon_damage) * (power) * (coefficient) / (armor)
= (weapon_damage) * (power) * (N*coefficient) / (armor)
Where N ranges 0-10 based on the number of times flame jet hits.

Essentially what you’ve got with flame jet is a variable coefficient compared to say a single rifle shot.

If you are particularly good with hitting, your coefficient is actually 1.4. How this compares with other abilities I couldn’t say, but comparing it based on a single hit of flame jet is disingenuous at best.

EDIT: I read up to the original thread and you do then average this out with per second, and then the numbers are comparing more apples to apples. So over 2.25 seconds, assuming all 10 hit, you get 0.14 * 10 / 2.25 and you do get your 0.62 coefficient when normalized to a per-second frame.

However, assuming your numbers are right for the others (didn’t check) you assert 0.35 per grenade per second. Untraited that’s 0.70 which is very comparable to 0.62. Traited you get 1.05 per second.

The conclusion is a matter of perspective I imagine. It’s a little more than half damage if you do nothing but use Grenade #1 versuse FT #1. Whether this is important to an encounter I would imagine depends greatly on the circumstances.

EDIT #2: Also this disregards the additional damage done to burning targets… it’s not a huge increase but brings the basic per-second ratio to 0.68.

And a more editorial comment, the number of damage inflicting abilities on a kit is not exactly relevant. FT has 2. Grenade has 5 (6 counting toolbelt) You’re only using one at a time — not like you light them all up at the same time. So the argument there is basically variety and possibly a utility argument (various fields).

I would appreciate a damage bump, though it wouldn’t take much, and maybe the #2 being a blast finisher would be sweet, but I think FT is in a pretty reasonable spot.

Plus, it’s fun, IMHO.

For grenades the values I used are conservative, I’ve done testing and the cast time seems to be closer to 1 second than the 1/2 second listed on the skill.

Untraited the damage values are already in favor of grenades, traited the grenade kit does over 50% more direct damage, with just it’s auto attack. Grenade kit utility skills do damage in addition to their effects and with grenades you can have massive bleed, vulnerability and poison stacks on top of the direct damage.

For comparison that the flame jet coefficient is not very good here are a few examples. Hundred blades gets a total coefficient of 5.5 over 9 hits in 3.5 seconds. The tool kit 1 chain has skill coefficients of 0.76/0.65/1.66 for 3 hits over 0.5/0.5/1.0 second cast times.

Longer ranged weapons usually get lower coefficients, but the engineer rifle hip shot has a skill coefficient of 0.65 and a 3/4 s cast time.

Quetz.4389:

For grenades the values I used are conservative, I’ve done testing and the cast time seems to be closer to 1 second than the 1/2 second listed on the skill.

Well if you’ve normalized to a per-second frame of reference it doesn’t matter. However if cast time is actually longer than it states, that would serve to lower grenade damage.

Quetz.4389:

Untraited the damage values are already in favor of grenades, traited the grenade kit does over 50% more direct damage, with just it’s auto attack. Grenade kit utility skills do damage in addition to their effects and with grenades you can have massive bleed, vulnerability and poison stacks on top of the direct damage.

I think to be specific, traited with Grenadier, a grenade kit does exactly 50% more direct damage ;-). Unless they actually make each individual grenade hit harder and not just throw a 3rd one.

If I really had to guess, based on the numbers ANet makes a number of assumptions when trying to balance these skills.

1) I have a sneaking suspicion based on how close the numbers are that they assume on average you will only hit with 2 out of the 3 grenades. I do not know how accurate this is. I imagine a highly skilled person can hit with all 3 regularly against a dodging target. I personally do not cope well with a ground reticule in the middle of a firefight (too much graphical bloom — hell, have a hard time finding the freakin’ mouse pointer sometimes). My average would probably be lower than 2 out of 3. But assuming the 0.35 per-second ratio is correct, and considering that burning is built into so many of the FT abilities, 0.7 is remarkably close to 0.68.
2) At the same time, they assume FT hits with every single tick. This is probably a mistake. While from personal experience my jet uptime is nearly 100%, it’s not always, and occasionally range and terrain interfere. If you’re good with circle strafing though, it’s not nearly as hard to keep it locked on target as I’ve seen folks complain about.
3) They’re probably not including a lot of knock-on effects (conditions from traits) in their idea of balance, unless the ability is primarily by itself a condition ability.

Quetz.4389:

For comparison that the flame jet coefficient is not very good here are a few examples. Hundred blades gets a total coefficient of 5.5 over 9 hits in 3.5 seconds. The tool kit 1 chain has skill coefficients of 0.76/0.65/1.66 for 3 hits over 0.5/0.5/1.0 second cast times.

Longer ranged weapons usually get lower coefficients, but the engineer rifle hip shot has a skill coefficient of 0.65 and a 3/4 s cast time.

Hundred blades also has a 8 second recharge time. Do your numbers include that?

That being said, the burst on hundred blades is incredible, and warriors have lots of other things to do to fill in the gap. Which leads to another assumption I suspect they make:

4) They tend to consider abilities in terms of the ability by itself, as opposed to the opportunity of doing things in the down-time.

I write this all mainly for analysis purposes. My own opinion is like I stated before. I agree that FT is a lower damage weapon than grenades. It could use an additional boost in a couple of ways. I do not think it is abysmal though as many have asserted. If one is not good with ground reticules, it’s likely better than grenades. And in before “LOL L2PLAY” I really don’t know why people have such a hard time keeping a FT jet on target ;-). Basically my point there is that it’s all relative to a person’s proficiencies with various playstyles. I doubt even with practice, I will ever get exceptionally great at ground targeting in a frantic situation due to a variety of reasons (age, lack of twitchyness, eyesight, etc).

EDIT: Error with post tags.

For grenades, yes i’m normalizing and assuming the 1 second cast time on everything i said since it’s the most likely result from my in game testing. And yes, it’s exactly 50% more haha.

I agree that the FT is not abysmal, but the numbers as shown don’t tell tell the full story yet.

For hundred blades, it may not be a perfect comparison due to being a melee ability and a cooldown ability. Cooldown abilities usually have larger skill coefficients than the auto attack abilities , with a few exceptions, but it shows a comparison point for perspective.

I suspect that the balancing reason is more likely due to the larger cone and area of effect that the flamethrower has over other cleaves like greatsword, but the weapon kit gives up too much for it.

Once you actually start making a build focusing on flamethrower versus other kits the gap widens a lot from what starts off as a small difference, so what I see as the shortcoming of the kit boil down to three main points.

1. Low skill coefficients lead to low damage and poor scaling.
2. Overemphasis on burning reduces synergy between skills and usefulness of condition damage/duration and other scaling stats
3. Lack of utility to make up for points 1 and 2

Finally, I agree that once you are in game, a lot of the perfect scenarios do not happen and personal preference and enjoyment are much more important.

My purpose is more in trying to show why abilities or kits don’t feel satisfying due to the numbers behind them as well as in trying to figure out if there are any tricks that may not be straightforward to improving builds.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Or you could take Med kit and get those 3 stacks every 10 seconds instead of every 15-20. Instead of flamethrower, you could take Elixir U for amazing party defense, Elixir S for an easy res, Elixir Gun…the list goes on. Taking flamethrower for the fire field is a waste of a skill slot.

1. You can’t get 3 stacks every 10 seconds with the Med Kit because it has an internal cooldown of 15 seconds. There is a typo in the tooltip. Of course, you’d know this if you actually tried the build and weren’t looking at everything strictly on paper.

2. Elixir R gives the “easy res,” not Elixir S.

3. I’m not taking the Flamethrower for its Fire field. I’m taking it for everything it does, including the Fire field. Besides, where’s the utility slot controversy? Last I checked the Grenade Kit took up the same amount of space—one slot.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

A lot of the arguments you’re making are things that could be done with a Grenade Kit + Skill combo.

I love how people always make this point, but Grenade Kit Engineers don’t take Fireforged Trigger and Deadly Mixture. So yes, a GK Engineer can take the Elixir Gun and pretend to think they’re using it as good as an FT Engineer does, but the fact of the matter is that they don’t.

And they don’t take Runes of Altruism. They take Condition Duration runes.

Kamahl.3621:

rifle does flat out more DPS on the auto

This has been tested and proven not to be the case.

And if you think that anything I do is “inept,” then don’t ever invite me to your party. Problem solved.

Quetz.4389:

And yes, it’s exactly 50% more haha.

:-)

2. Overemphasis on burning…

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Let’s not get crazy here. Can you really have too much burning? I think not. The fact they put in special “death by burning” screams does make the little psychotic inside of me smile every time. :-)

All kidding aside, you make good points. And it’s probably good for us AND for ANet to make sure that your basic steady damage isn’t completely overshadowed by burst. 100-Blades is burst damage, and it’s EASY burst damage, and there are plenty of other bursty things to fill in the gap. Thus you end up with warriors who do phenomenal damage because they can chain burst skills back to back and suddenly — it’s not really burst damage any more it’s just high constant damage.

I don’t mind FT not managing other conditions because it’s so thematic, but I’ll admit, the fact that the great ball o’ fire doesn’t count as a combo burst finisher just seems so completely unintuitive. I mean seriously, is there another skill by any other profession in the game that looks MORE like a “burst” than an exploding fireball? (maybe that big ol’ rock spike that elementalists can throw).

Perhaps if they did that and they tweaked up the flame jet’s numbers so that a full 10 count blow did pretty much the same damage as a 3 count grenade (maybe link it to Juggernaut simply because to get the 3 count grenade requires a grandmaster level trait). An untraited 2 count grenade is already roughly at the 10 count FT damage level. Then it all more easily boils down to skill (either skill with hitting with grenades or skill with managing a jet of flammable liquid) and we can dispense with these silly elitist outlooks on life about what “newbies” use and whatnot.

My purpose is more in trying to show why abilities or kits don’t feel satisfying due to the numbers behind them as well as in trying to figure out if there are any tricks that may not be straightforward to improving builds.

I think that’s a good purpose!

Phineas Poe.3018:

And they don’t take Runes of Altruism. They take Condition Duration runes.

Just for pure curiosity, how does Rune of Altruism work out to be better than the Str/Fire/Hoelbrak choice? Is it only particularly associated with toggling to EG frequently? It doesn’t seem like the Might spreading and Fury add up to the extended duration? Maybe it’s just an ensemble synergy thing?

altruism runes offer might to the whole party, not just a duration increase.

just a different application of the boon.

Remillard.8691:

Phineas Poe.3018:

And they don’t take Runes of Altruism. They take Condition Duration runes.

Just for pure curiosity, how does Rune of Altruism work out to be better than the Str/Fire/Hoelbrak choice? Is it only particularly associated with toggling to EG frequently? It doesn’t seem like the Might spreading and Fury add up to the extended duration? Maybe it’s just an ensemble synergy thing?

You only need 2xAltruism for 3 stacks of might and you can use rest 4 slots to w/e you want

Remillard.8691:

Phineas Poe.3018:

And they don’t take Runes of Altruism. They take Condition Duration runes.

Just for pure curiosity, how does Rune of Altruism work out to be better than the Str/Fire/Hoelbrak choice? Is it only particularly associated with toggling to EG frequently? It doesn’t seem like the Might spreading and Fury add up to the extended duration? Maybe it’s just an ensemble synergy thing?

Giving your group 8 seconds of Fury every 15 goes a lot farther than a couple extra stacks of Might.

Well maybe I’ll give that a throw and see how it works out.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Kamahl.3621:

rifle does flat out more DPS on the auto

This has been tested and proven not to be the case.

Re-tested it, and it is still the case at higher values of power, given hip fire has a better scaling on it’s damage per second than the FT1. Of course, when all traits, the burning, and the 10% more damage are taken into account, FT1 wins out at lower values on power, whereas at higher values, the scaling favors Hip Shot.

Of course you could take the dunce hat off and use grenades at that range, and not be putting points down a rather low-damage tree (Alchemy) and invest them better. And not every grenadier uses condition duration runes – the optimized ones for PvE will be sporting either scholar or rubies, depending on how secure they are with staying at high health or not. Possibly Altruism as well, but that doesn’t work nearly as well without a lot of points wasted in Alchemy.

Imho, they should rework at least flame jet. As a short-mid range attack, its damage is quite low. It would need three enemies to do the full damage of the attack, but then it also means that you’re facing three enemies. Basically, risks far outweight the rewards.
After all, the trait line where most of the traits are located doesn’t give toughness or vitality by itself. So even if you’re getting 200 toughness by juggernaut, you aren’t that good tanking anyway. While you can use flame jet to spread vulnerability and bleeding (both with a certain chance) on crit, grenades do it better – chance of bleeding when they explode (as in, per grenade) and vulnerability on explosion (again, per grenade).
On top on spreading other conditions, while the flamethrower does only burning – and it can’t even mantain it alone, anyway.
Also, retaliation. When you get more damage from retaliation than the one you’re actually doing, something is seriously wrong.

Quetz.4389:

Once you actually start making a build focusing on flamethrower versus other kits the gap widens a lot from what starts off as a small difference, so what I see as the shortcoming of the kit boil down to three main points.

1. Low skill coefficients lead to low damage and poor scaling.
2. Overemphasis on burning reduces synergy between skills and usefulness of condition damage/duration and other scaling stats
3. Lack of utility to make up for points 1 and 2

Finally, I agree that once you are in game, a lot of the perfect scenarios do not happen and personal preference and enjoyment are much more important.

My purpose is more in trying to show why abilities or kits don’t feel satisfying due to the numbers behind them as well as in trying to figure out if there are any tricks that may not be straightforward to improving builds.

I would argue that a 4th point would be needed: You need 60 points invested to get the most out of this kit as a base starting point. Juggernaut, Deadly Mixture, Incendiary Powder. It would be nice if Juggernaut had that bonus from DM or just bake it in the kit itself to not needing those traits in alchemy to achieve “max damage” on the kit.

However, the problem with scaling still remains, and it would just be a simple numbers tweak to make it a lot more competitive with nades, but I feel that untying DM from the kit to do the best base damage would be a good start and open up a few builds for us. (Turrets when/if they ever make them not squishy or tools for more crit damage, etc)

Kamahl.3621:

Re-tested it, and it is still the case at higher values of power, given hip fire has a better scaling on it’s damage per second than the FT1. Of course, when all traits, the burning, and the 10% more damage are taken into account, FT1 wins out at lower values on power, whereas at higher values, the scaling favors Hip Shot.

You’re doing something wrong, then.

With the Flamethrower you have Juggernaut, which gives you 7-8 stacks of Might with the 10/30/0/30/0 setup with Runes of Altruism. That 245-280 added Power, along with Deadly Mixture + Incendiary Powder, and it isn’t a contest at all. The Burning damage is more significant, your Bleed stacking is more significant through Sharpshooter, and your Sigil of Strength is far more potent due to the high attack speed of the Flamethrower compared to the Rifle.

Most importantly, the Flamethrower is best wielded using Pistols over the Rifle. This gives you two sigils to work with to bolster your Flamethrower’s DPS. Sigil of Strength + Force/Bloodlust > only having one of them.

Dual wield pistols (or with the Shield) and stick with the Flamethrower and Elixir Gun for your damage. Time after time this has proven to be the most efficient method.

I’ve been using this build and tweaking it for nine months. I’ve tested every variable. There once was a time that using the Rifle was best for auto-attacks. There once was a time that the Flamethrower was best used only for Flame Blast and then swapping to something else.

But with the buffs to Flame Jet and Flame Blast, not to mention sigils now working with our kits, that’s really not the case anymore.

Kamahl.3621:

Of course you could take the dunce hat off and use grenades at that range, and not be putting points down a rather low-damage tree (Alchemy) and invest them better.

Alchemy gives me +30% Boon Duration, +Vitality, a 15% damage increase to my FT and EG, a +1% damage increase for every boon on me, a shorter cooldown for Elixir U, and condition removal.

Alchemy is by and far one of the best trees we have in PvE. I really have to disagree with your assessment of the tree. Most Engineers run 30 points in Alchemy regardless of what kit they’re wielding.

So who is the “dunce” here again?

Phineas Poe.3018:

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Or you could take Med kit and get those 3 stacks every 10 seconds instead of every 15-20. Instead of flamethrower, you could take Elixir U for amazing party defense, Elixir S for an easy res, Elixir Gun…the list goes on. Taking flamethrower for the fire field is a waste of a skill slot.

1. You can’t get 3 stacks every 10 seconds with the Med Kit because it has an internal cooldown of 15 seconds. There is a typo in the tooltip. Of course, you’d know this if you actually tried the build and weren’t looking at everything strictly on paper.

2. Elixir R gives the “easy res,” not Elixir S.

3. I’m not taking the Flamethrower for its Fire field. I’m taking it for everything it does, including the Fire field. Besides, where’s the utility slot controversy? Last I checked the Grenade Kit took up the same amount of space—one slot.

1) I’m sorry, did I kick your dog or something? Cool it with the sarcasm. Sorry I don’t know about a bug with a rune that I don’t use.

2) Elixir S is an easy res. Being invulnerable makes resing a lot easier. I don’t usually take Elixir R just because the stun breaker isn’t as good and the res skill has a ~87-120 second recharge. Still a great skill though. Also, please try to make points by making points instead of looking for things you think are slightly factually wrong.

3) Again, break up your argument into PvE, PvP and WvW. It changes from place to place. In that “One Slot” it does a LOT of stuff. Elixir S in it’s one slot does A LOT for any build. In a build, you need to make sure the three utilities you are bringing are the best ones you can bring.

Also, in PvP, one slot is a kit, one slot is a stun breaker. That really only leaves you with one slot.

I love how people always make this point, but Grenade Kit Engineers don’t take Fireforged Trigger and Deadly Mixture. So yes, a GK Engineer can take the Elixir Gun and pretend to think they’re using it as good as an FT Engineer does, but the fact of the matter is that they don’t.

And they don’t take Runes of Altruism. They take Condition Duration runes.

Most of the time, power and critical damage is the way to go besides HGH builds.

PvP – Divinity, Scholar, Ogre or Str,Fire,Hoelbreak. All of them are power/might based.

WvW – Divinity, Scholar, Ogre.

PvE – Divinity, Scholar, Ogre.

Besides, if I’m going support, I take some sort of support rune with my grenade kit.

Instead of opinions, here’s some facts:

These are the numbers if you stay inside of the healing field for the entire duration on recharge. I’m ignoring the 1/2 second to get this on the ground for simplicity’s sake.

1255/3430 (Full Heal Bunker).
One Shot: 4,685
Per minute without recharge buff: 14,055
Per minute with recharge buff: 17,569 (rounded up)
Difference: 3,514 (20%)

I had more data but the difference is pretty clear here. If you take that trait, you will heal 20% more with Super Elixir over 1 minute. This all said, there’s nothing really stopping me from taking this trait. My current spread in PvE is this:

30/10/10/0/20.

30 For grenadier.
10 For the rifle recharge and range (So I can use jump shot more)
10 For 50% fall damage (WvW)
20 For Critical Damage, Speedy Kits and Deployable turrets (WvW).

There’s nothing stopping me from going 30/0/0/20/20 if I wanted to go support. I’d lose absolutely nothing in terms of damage (maybe some precision might hurt, but that’s what food is for). The only reason I go 30/10/10/0/20 is because I do a lot of jumping puzzles and those two abilities are amazing for them.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

1) I’m sorry, did I kick your dog or something? Cool it with the sarcasm. Sorry I don’t know about a bug with a rune that I don’t use.

No. I’m just really sick and tired of people coming onto the official forums talking about things they have no experience using.

This thread is rife with it. It’s pretty clear that you don’t have much experience integrating the FT and the EG together. So maybe take a moment and let those of us that have talk freely.

Phineas Poe.3018:

The Gates Assassin.9827:

1) I’m sorry, did I kick your dog or something? Cool it with the sarcasm. Sorry I don’t know about a bug with a rune that I don’t use.

No. I’m just really sick and tired of people coming onto the official forums talking about things they have no experience using.

This thread is rife with it. It’s pretty clear that you don’t have much experience integrating the FT and the EG together. So maybe take a moment and let those of us that have talk freely.

Why do you assume that? Engineer is the only class that I actively use. I’ve tried to make the flamethrower be good multiple times. I’ve seen and used Flamethrower and Elixir Gun together. It’s really not as great as you make it sound. Grenades have always been the king of this class. It’s too good to throw away for crappy 425 range damage. The support gained from Elixir Gun can be done with Grenades. The difference, as shone is minimal. The most difference you could have is 300 more healing power. This equates to about 30 healing per tick.

You’re taking this whole thing way to personally. Stop thinking you know everything and just attempt to prove it without being sarcastic and rude.

1. You insinuated that using Blast finishers to stack Area Might isn’t good as it detracts from your DPS. It doesn’t, as I’ve already illustrated.

2. You have no experience using Rune of Altruism yet chose to comment on the matter regardless.

3. You further insinuated that Empower is a better option for stacking Might even though anyone who plays an Engineer and Guardian know that Empower’s Might last 10 seconds—and mid combat? With the 10 second weapon swap? Please.

3. This:

The Gates Assassin.9827:

It’s just not good. The only way to use it is to pop in and use the utility skills. If you use skill 1 2 or 4, you’re not being effective.

Napalm is the longest duration Fire field in the game. Flame Blast is one of the hardest hitting skills Engineers have.

4. You simply downplay everything the Flamethrower has to offer while making the Grenade Kit out to sound like it’s the right hand of God. I’m not taking this argument personally. I’m just calling you out on things that are totally incorrect. Because the last thing I want to see is someone read this thread and think that the Flamethrower is “not helpful.”

king at what? dps output?

no one has ever claimed ft/eg is better dps. ever. the ft/eg builds are GROUP oriented focus, the grenades are FOE oriented focus.

NEITHER DOES THIS MEAN THAT GRENADES ARE USELESS IN GROUPS
What I am saying is that speccing nades is to spec dps and focus on killing opponents (in pvp) while speccing in to ft/eg encourages you to focus on your allies, and not your foes.

two different ways of playing the game.

@Kamahl; between you and waka, i can’t think of worse representatives of the engineer’s community. you know nothing. you assume everything. change this. please.

@Gates: The support from grenades comes less frequently and more haphazzardly than the EG, period. the grenades are not designed to support your group, they are designed to DPS your foe. Grenades do not have fumigate, or acid bomb, or super elixir, or rubber ball, all things which SUPPORT the group FIRST dps second. your “king of the class” grenades do the exact opposite.

your closed minded attitude is stopping you from comprehending that there are multiple ways of approaching challenges in this game.

FOR YOU, the way that YOU play, grenades are king. For other people, they are not. and YOU have NO qualifications for telling them otherwise. period.

nakoda.4213:

@Gates: The support from grenades comes less frequently and more haphazzardly than the EG, period. the grenades are not designed to support your group, they are designed to DPS your foe. Grenades do not have fumigate, or acid bomb, or super elixir, or rubber ball, all things which SUPPORT the group FIRST dps second. your “king of the class” grenades do the exact opposite.

I think he meant using the GK/EG combo versus using the FT/EG.

But even still, the Grenade Kit has no Fire field for stacking Might. It has no knockback, projectile reflect, or interrupt. And no Grenade Kit Engineer can play the role of the tank in a group, or even an off-tank. And even if someone runs Deadly Mixture, they’re still not going to have Fireforged Trigger. Because of course a 20% cooldown reduction makes a difference.

I’m all for players using the Grenade Kit if that playstyle suits them. It’s a great setup. But suggesting that FT Engineers are “not helpful” for DPS or that the Grenade Kit offers just as much support or uses the Elixir Gun as effectively is just absurd.

It’s flat out wrong.

nakoda.4213:

no one has ever claimed ft/eg is better dps. ever. the ft/eg builds are GROUP oriented focus, the grenades are FOE oriented focus.

This pretty much sums up the argument. The thread can close now.

There’s no trinity in this game but many people still want to be dps without any regard for group play. I’ve taken the recommendations of players like nakoda and experimented with Altruism and it’s amazing. Spreading might & fury across my whole group by merely swapping kits mid-combat is more beneficial than throwing another grenade. Using FT to drop a long lasting fire field & keep burns rolling helps the whole group. Every EG skill helps the group. Grenades are dps king for engi…no doubt. But they offer very little in the way of group support/synergy. They have no finishers, no useful combo fields, no boons. FT/EG may not roll comparitively big numbers across your screen, but it will help to keep your party strong & alive, and the enemy from winning.

Know what? I’m done here. Maybe someday you’ll realize offense is the best defense, especially in this game. Yeah, I could devote my entire build to be tankier, or I can stay out of the way, dodge and kill stuff. Hell, for most of the content in this game I can walk right up to enemies and blow them up without worrying about dying anyways. Yes, even Arah and Fractals. You may call it a playstyle, but I call it being optimal.

So let’s productively outline what the better points of the FT are to newer people, who think it looks cool, but maybe aren’t using it to the best of its or their ability.

1. FT is not a projectile, and therefore, can’t be reflected. No guardian wall, no Jade elemental, no magnetic bubble, no mesmer feedback and turn it around on us. I use it in the Maw fractal for this very reason, since I usually roll with grenades and a pistol, and the prybar/wrench combo are much shorter range, FT is a perfect compromise. Also, for WvW applications, it goes RIGHT THROUGH tower doors as well as other things.

2. Have burning on your target first, if possible. FT#1 does more damage to a burning target, BUT applies burning on the 10th and final tick. Toss your Napalm into your target area first to increase your dps 10% immediately. Alternatively, Incendiary Powder, a 10 pt trait in Explosives will give you 100% chance of 4 seconds of burning on crit, so this will apply the condition faster, if you have a reasonable crit chance.

3. Have the correct target selected. GW2 has a targeting system that could be called lacking by only the most generous standards, and using the Flamethrower requires a certain amount of camera dance. Think of the Flamejet as a directional AoE, and you want to keep your targets as close to being in it as possible. If you have the wrong target selected, the system WILL move the entire jet in their direction, despite being wholly out of range. You can then right-mouse-button camera track the target you WANT to hit, but you will get occasional misses, and even hit a few things that really don’t make any sense. (I think this has to do with the universal coordinate system using geometric offsets to minimize lag instead of cycling whole sets of coordinates)

4. The FT#2 does a nice bit of damage and detonates for a very short range AoE, but targeting is key as it is VERY SLOW. Test this in the mists when you get a chance, using different spec amulets, just to get feel for how it works. I usually double tap it at short range for max melee damage.

5. The Air Blast FT#3 skill will blow back projectiles as well as up to 5 targets, and interrupts anyone who gets knocked back. When it was stated that this maybe be one of the best AoE knockbacks in the game, it was not hyperbole. I use it for all TYPES of situations, and the cool down is so low, it offsets the fact that it does no damage quite well.

6. The AoE Blind on skill #5 has been mentioned, but is a good “oh crap” skill when getting Heartseekered. Or if you see people spinning or twirling toward you.

As you can tell by my points, I primarily use the FT for a utility and to keep myself entertained. Feel free to add positive, “best practices” points or usage cases for each skill, and lets see if we can pull this one out of the negativity and try to help.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Know what? I’m done here. Maybe someday you’ll realize offense is the best defense, especially in this game. Yeah, I could devote my entire build to be tankier, or I can stay out of the way, dodge and kill stuff. Hell, for most of the content in this game I can walk right up to enemies and blow them up without worrying about dying anyways. Yes, even Arah and Fractals. You may call it a playstyle, but I call it being optimal.

go have fun being optimal then.

don’t forget your 5-signet cube on the way out.

edit: @lunyboy; thanks, that’s a prime summary.

nakoda.4213:

edit: @lunyboy; thanks, that’s a prime summary.

Feel free to add to it, man, I just aggregated what everyone else has been saying. If anyone here would know how to use it in harmony with other kits/skills, it would be the people running FT most of the time (as you do) and we would all welcome the insight, even if it were just things we might not know.

Let’s do what we can to make this board more of a resource.

I completely agree with The Gate Assassin about how to use the flamethrower but still I loved using it while leveling my engineer and even in some spvp builds it works quite well with an aoe knockback. It’s just that some things the flamethrower lacks in. Which is good sustained damage and conditions, Jet flame takes way to long to rely on, both have a good blind, both #2 skills do good dmg but grenade kit also adds great condition dmg and grenade kit has poison vs a line fire combo field. One line of fire or 3 circles of poison, the grenade kit is far superior in conditions and still good with power. Right now grenade kit is the best kit for damage, that is just a fact. So taking anything else for the most damage possible is not worth it.

Still using the flamethrower is not the worst thing you can do at all. The worst thing is relying on your #1 skill to kill your target. I remember fighting an engineer who tried to kill me with flame jet alone with his fire bullet CD. I cleansed the fire conditions and just laughed at the flamejet damage while retaliation and conditions burned down his health and my health stayed 2/3 full. The kit is not made for damage or is elixir kit, you won’t kill things with either.

Dyeus.6759:

I completely agree with The Gate Assassin about how to use the flamethrower but still I loved using it while leveling my engineer and even in some spvp builds it works quite well with an aoe knockback. It’s just that some things the flamethrower lacks in. Which is good sustained damage and conditions, Jet flame takes way to long to rely on, both have a good blind, both #2 skills do good dmg but grenade kit also adds great condition dmg and grenade kit has poison vs a line fire combo field. One line of fire or 3 circles of poison, the grenade kit is far superior in conditions and still good with power. Right now grenade kit is the best kit for damage, that is just a fact. So taking anything else for the most damage possible is not worth it.

yes, thank you, again, no one is contesting that.

but….

this is a thread about the FT, the FT playstyle, and the FT abilities.

since we all already -know- that grenades do more DPS, continuing to regurgitate that info as if it will completely negate the FT is .. well stupid.

The FT is not intended to be used as a top end burst dps kit. the grenade kit is.

The FT is intended to be used as a support utility kit. The grenade kit is not.

Why is this still being argued about?

Everyone does damage, everyone does support, everyone does healing, why take a kit that does less dmg and only gives you a aoe pushback?