Guild Wars 2

The Gates Assassin.9827:

I tested flamethrower again. Few things:

1) It’s MUCH more intuitive – I was able to hit with everything fairly well and only the auto attack seemed weird.

2) The autoattack range still doesn’t match up with animation – My flames STILL hit, but I “miss” the target.

3) This is inferior in damage to Bomb and Grenade kit. This is a low skill and less damage version of those two kits. It really shouldn’t be a kit for people who can’t handle harder kits. Make it what it really should be: Point defense. Give skill 2 less damage and a knock back. Making this a mid range damage kit makes it inferior to other damage kits.

4) Skill 4 and 5 still feel out of place. I understand how to use them, but it feels like a stretch.

5) The 10% vs burning is too minimal. I honestly didn’t even notice it.

Overall: You still have to work way harder with this kit for less of an effect than other kits. Make it a CC kit.

1) I found it much easier overall to hit.
2)That could be server lag, player lag or communication issues in between. The way I understand it, the animation does not actually ‘hit’ you. An invisible frontal cone dictates if/how you get struck and the animation does not fit the same mold as the cone.
3)If you are looking for “skill” in a video game. Then you might want to consider online chess. Bomb Kit requires you to get in melee distance where the Engineer (regardless of asinine named builds ‘tankcat’ is horribly over matched. The bomb kit shines at combo fields (especially stealth around a corner to get in a keep for a group) and killing bad thieves chasing you. It might work in spvp, but again I wouldnt bring an engineer there.

Grenade kit, is right now the best overall kit we have. Range, decent damage and control. This kit should be what every engineer has on them at all times.

4)Not really. Fskill Elixir S plus BKit 5 is a nice combo to peel off of others especially in spvp. 4 needs a longer duration.

5) I would agree with you. It is barely noticeable. It should be 15-20%. Overall Flamethrower damage should be raised 10% plus the new buff. Elixir Gun should be raised 20-30% base.

I do 5K up to 6K crit with my fireball, 4K spread with 1 auto attack, i can be in front line of my warband without dying, i have 3 wonderful panics buttons to escape from death and back in fight quickly and fully charged/buffed

i have with only the 8 power of my self FT buff :

2184 power 3153 atk
1816 toughtness ( 1916 with food )
1842 précision 48% crit ( 58% with 70 préci food 78 in fight playing alot fury =
19742 HP
35% critical damage

here is my build, playing mostly in wvwvw and its so powerful

http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/engineer/?2|a.1n.h4.e.1g.h1b|0.0.0.0.0.0|1c.7d.1c.7d.1n.7d.1n.7d.1n.7d.1g.7d|1n.67.1n.67.1n.67.1n.67.1n.67.1c.67|0.u58b.0.u47c.a6|40.8|e

Playing FT on condition damage and burning is a big mistake for me , need play knight and zerk, full power and critical damage, 1 / 2 are our main damage spells and its enought to do massive damage, switching pistol/shield for some boss who need long range ( pistol range boost are the same line than mastodont so you can switch easily our of combat )

hf folks may the tools be with us !

JohnDied.3476:

I think the damage it does is pretty reasonable. Wait no, the opposite.

I swear, I get more damage out of a grenade/bomb engi with cleric gear.

EDIT: Oh, and I get reliable burning with bomb kit.

I get more reliable burning with my RIFLE (property traited, of course, but still…).

FT is that sad.

Phineas Poe.3018:

SilverWF.4789:

Cyric.2854:

I loved omnom on ft to mitigate confussion and retalliation… Now I’m rerolling to a Guardian.

Fully agree with your whole post
And yes, I’ll do the same.

As someone that also has a decked out Guardian … the grass is always greener on the other side.

Man, as you can see from sign – I’ve already have 80 Guardian (also as another OP-classes), so… So hold down with your tales about grass, please. Ty.

Skribulous.3521:

JohnDied.3476:

I think the damage it does is pretty reasonable. Wait no, the opposite.

I swear, I get more damage out of a grenade/bomb engi with cleric gear.

EDIT: Oh, and I get reliable burning with bomb kit.

I get more reliable burning with my RIFLE (property traited, of course, but still…).

FT is that sad.

then you must be doing something wrong.

FT1, Napalm, 33% Burn on crit, Air Blast (now increases burn duration by 2.5 seconds), Sigil of Fire (30% AoE burn on crit)
edit: I forgot Incendiary Ammo, cheers Punkins!

There are numerous ways to burn foes with the FT, if specced properly.

The question isn’t whether or not you can apply burns with FT reliably, it’s why you should use the FT in the first place when other weapons offer better damage and utility.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Phineas Poe.3018:

What was the trait setup used in your evaluation? Did you use Juggernaut? How did you distribute your points in Alchemy and Tools? Did you use Mixed Elixirs?

And what are the raw numbers you’re comparing? What do you mean by “less damage?” Is this with Berserker’s? Is this with Rampager’s? Rubies? Or Emeralds?

What sigils? Did you use Bloodlust and Strength and stack for Power like you’re supposed to when using the Flamethrower?

How did you use it? Did you just spam Flame Jet? Or did you drop Napalm for the 10% increase when Burning?

Challenge accepted. Here’s my numbers IN GAME:

---

This test was done vs the Heavy Armor Golem in PvP. All damage numbers are with critical hits ONLY. It is also the average critical hit.

Flame Jet: 1.8k direct 800 condition 2.4k damage (2.5 seconds)

Flame Blast: 2.3k blast 1k trail 3.3k damage (.5 seconds at melee range)

Napalm: 700 condition 700 damage (1 second)

Max damage: 4k DPS.

Average Damage: 2.4k per 2 seconds

My set up:

Juggernaut and HGH (of course).
Elixir B H and U. Before every test I threw down and drank every elixir, giving me 17 might.
Sigil was of the Elementalist That gave me power and condition damage.
Carrion Amulet Giving power and condition damage

---

You mentioned in your post that Flamethrower is about power. So here’s the power version of this. This is using Scholars sigil and berzerkers amulet:

Flame Jet: 3.2k direct 500 condition 3.7k damage (2.5 seconds)

Flame Blast: 3.3k blast 1.4k trail 4.7k damage (.5 seconds at melee range)

Napalm: 500 condition 500 damage (1 second)

Max damage: 5.2k DPS

Average damage: 3.7k -4k per 2 seconds

5.2k seems like a lot; however, here are the requirements:

1) They must be inside of Napalm
2) They must be hit by the trail of flame blast
3) They must be hit by the explosion of flame blast
4) You must get a critical with both the trail and explosion of flame blast

---

Here’s 100nades:

Jump Shot 4.3k direct 4.3k damage

Grenade Barrage(Kit refinement) 5.3k direct 5.3k damage

Grenade Barrage(Normal) 1.2k * 8 direct 9.6k damage

Static Discharge 1k direct 1k damage

Grenade 700 * 3 direct 2.1k damage

Shrapnel Grenade 1.2k * 3 direct 3.6k damage

Freeze Grenade 1.2k * 3 direct 3.6k damage

Max damage: 20.2k damage

Average Damage: 2.1k-2.5k per second

Uhhh..

You bring in toolbelt damage for grenades, but neglect to use incendiary ammo for the flamethrower??

You bring in kit refinement damage for grenades, but fail to do the same for flamethrower??

You included damage from rifle5 for grenades, but not for flamethrower??

.. static discharge…

You see what I did there.

I think you should rerun your tests, or just fix the math..

Everyone quotes FT1 damage as junk, but no one ever mentions that its AOE junk, and seem to expect it to show the ZOMGBIGNUMBERS of a single target attack. And seem to genererally fail at aiming it… I never had any problems once used to it.

I would leave ft on my bar for air blast alone. In all these mindless damage-obsessed discussions, no one mentions the enemy damage negated by ft3.. much less the 10 stomps it negates per fight.

I also think its pretty funny that the kit is generally regarded as “bugged” in discussions about landing ft damage (meaning people just fail at aiming it) while others simultaneously claim its the “kit for dummies” as compared to grenades (which my blind grandmother could land with reasonable success).

Punkins you nailed it, unless these stupid builds that are on youtube are number 1. The masses cant deal with people who can think outside the box and place use and utility with other items.

nakoda.4213:

Skribulous.3521:

JohnDied.3476:

I think the damage it does is pretty reasonable. Wait no, the opposite.

I swear, I get more damage out of a grenade/bomb engi with cleric gear.

EDIT: Oh, and I get reliable burning with bomb kit.

I get more reliable burning with my RIFLE (property traited, of course, but still…).

FT is that sad.

then you must be doing something wrong.

FT1, Napalm, 33% Burn on crit, Air Blast (now increases burn duration by 2.5 seconds), Sigil of Fire (30% AoE burn on crit)

There are numerous ways to burn foes with the FT, if specced properly.

You for got incendiary ammo.. the biggest burn of all.

FT is and has been a staple kit in any sPvP build that has any focus on conditions at all, and definately has a place in several builds… now, because of the condition removal “nerf” alongside EG, I think it’s only drawback is you won’t see as many FT/EG builds. Not like you see many Engies to begin with, but these two kits were part of a build that was basically immune to conditions, which is, I am assuming, part of the reason for the “nerf”

Anyway, short version… FT is a good kit and it just improved a bit.

Punkins.2087:

Uhhh..

You bring in toolbelt damage for grenades, but neglect to use incendiary ammo for the flamethrower??

You bring in kit refinement damage for grenades, but fail to do the same for flamethrower??

You included damage from rifle5 for grenades, but not for flamethrower??

.. static discharge…

You see what I did there.

I think you should rerun your tests, or just fix the math..

Surprise surprise!! Adding toolbelt damage on a build that is highly dependent on the toolbelt. Adding the rifle gap closer damage on a build that requires said gap closer. Whodathunk?

aydenunited.5729:

FT is and has been a staple kit in any sPvP build that has any focus on conditions at all, and definately has a place in several builds… now, because of the condition removal “nerf” alongside EG, I think it’s only drawback is you won’t see as many FT/EG builds. Not like you see many Engies to begin with, but these two kits were part of a build that was basically immune to conditions, which is, I am assuming, part of the reason for the “nerf”

Anyway, short version… FT is a good kit and it just improved a bit.

I honestly don’t understand why people keep saying this “FT … conditions”. What does the FT do with conditions that no other engg option can? The on crit traits are available to every kit/weapon. Is it that FT1 does 5 attacks per sec? Grenades do 6 attacks per sec.

Punkins.2087:

nakoda.4213:

Skribulous.3521:

JohnDied.3476:

I think the damage it does is pretty reasonable. Wait no, the opposite.

I swear, I get more damage out of a grenade/bomb engi with cleric gear.

EDIT: Oh, and I get reliable burning with bomb kit.

I get more reliable burning with my RIFLE (property traited, of course, but still…).

FT is that sad.

then you must be doing something wrong.

FT1, Napalm, 33% Burn on crit, Air Blast (now increases burn duration by 2.5 seconds), Sigil of Fire (30% AoE burn on crit)

There are numerous ways to burn foes with the FT, if specced properly.

You for got incendiary ammo.. the biggest burn of all.

biggest burn huh sure lasts 9s but it doesnt compare to pistols’s 4k damage burn in 2s. plus its worthless when you can keep perma burn by simply traiting 10 points to power .

Flamethrower is useless in WvW if you are attacked by a mesmer you are insta dead since the phantasms will have perma retaliation wich means Retaliation x3 x10 hits if you hit all at same time + confusion.

Rezzet.3614:

Flamethrower is useless in WvW if you are attacked by a mesmer you are insta dead since the phantasms will have perma retaliation wich means Retaliation x3 x10 hits if you hit all at same time + confusion.

Strawman argument.

1. You are setting a scene where 3 Phantasms (not Clones) are standing stationary, and clumped together. In WvW.

2. You are setting a scenario where 3 Phantasms (not Clones) won’t die within the third or fifth hit of the Flame Jet. Probably with a level 10 Engineer versus a Mesmer with Signet of Illusion, Illusionary Defender, lots of Power and Toughness and other such conditions.

Seetoo.9316:

Punkins.2087:

Uhhh..

You bring in toolbelt damage for grenades, but neglect to use incendiary ammo for the flamethrower??

You bring in kit refinement damage for grenades, but fail to do the same for flamethrower??

You included damage from rifle5 for grenades, but not for flamethrower??

.. static discharge…

You see what I did there.

I think you should rerun your tests, or just fix the math..

Surprise surprise!! Adding toolbelt damage on a build that is highly dependent on the toolbelt. Adding the rifle gap closer damage on a build that requires said gap closer. Whodathunk?

aydenunited.5729:

FT is and has been a staple kit in any sPvP build that has any focus on conditions at all, and definately has a place in several builds… now, because of the condition removal “nerf” alongside EG, I think it’s only drawback is you won’t see as many FT/EG builds. Not like you see many Engies to begin with, but these two kits were part of a build that was basically immune to conditions, which is, I am assuming, part of the reason for the “nerf”

Anyway, short version… FT is a good kit and it just improved a bit.

I honestly don’t understand why people keep saying this “FT … conditions”. What does the FT do with conditions that no other engg option can? The on crit traits are available to every kit/weapon. Is it that FT1 does 5 attacks per sec? Grenades do 6 attacks per sec.

Incendiary Ammo + Runes of Baalthazar + Medikit + FT swap = well over 20 seconds of considerable burn damage even in a power rifle build which doens’t spec at all for conditions.

Add in the CC of the FT kit and it’s a good mix.

Again, like in the other thread, I have to assume you’re strictly speaking from a PvE part of the game, where I’ve heard mixed things about FT kit, but it’s always been an option for us, in spite of it’s buggy nature.

Seetoo.9316:

Punkins.2087:

Uhhh..

You bring in toolbelt damage for grenades, but neglect to use incendiary ammo for the flamethrower??

You bring in kit refinement damage for grenades, but fail to do the same for flamethrower??

You included damage from rifle5 for grenades, but not for flamethrower??

.. static discharge…

You see what I did there.

I think you should rerun your tests, or just fix the math..

Surprise surprise!! Adding toolbelt damage on a build that is highly dependent on the toolbelt. Adding the rifle gap closer damage on a build that requires said gap closer. Whodathunk?

aydenunited.5729:

FT is and has been a staple kit in any sPvP build that has any focus on conditions at all, and definately has a place in several builds… now, because of the condition removal “nerf” alongside EG, I think it’s only drawback is you won’t see as many FT/EG builds. Not like you see many Engies to begin with, but these two kits were part of a build that was basically immune to conditions, which is, I am assuming, part of the reason for the “nerf”

Anyway, short version… FT is a good kit and it just improved a bit.

I honestly don’t understand why people keep saying this “FT … conditions”. What does the FT do with conditions that no other engg option can? The on crit traits are available to every kit/weapon. Is it that FT1 does 5 attacks per sec? Grenades do 6 attacks per sec.

are you kitten serious? you make it sound like each spec is a different profession all together…

“engie” is a “cc + condition” profession, each of its specs is centred around condition application coupled with power build for direct application of damage, grenades, ft, pistols, eg, toolkit, they ALL apply conds.

how is “what can ft do that another engie can’t” even an argument?

each build provides different ways of applying conds.

Despite everything in this thread I tried out a flamethrower might stacking build, because kitten it, it was one of the only buffs we got. It was in fact very easy to stack might up to 11 out of combat, In combat I had a little more trouble. I assume that people with more experience with the flamethrower would have milked out more damage with it. I kept having to go into med-kit to keep the might up past 7 and after a while it just got on my nerves to have to do it. In the end I decided to quit it because the damage was only “all right” for the cost of jumping through hoops for this kit.

I do take back what I said earlier. A decently geared (experienced) flamethrower engi will do more damage than my grenade/bomb (healer) engineer. In fact, if they are shrewd and experienced, a flamethrower engineer can do top notch damage. They just have to do all this stupid bullkitten to do it.

It’s just a pain in the kitten to do it and requires very specific rune set ups. I’d rather run bombs and grenades, do good damage and have better mobility.

strength sigil! enhanced performance! or, HGH! also, testing out fire sigil with the buff to air blast.
but, with strength sigil it is rdiculously easy to hit 20+ might stacks, also (edit) you ought to have a base 60% crit (80% w/ perma fury – soz, but medkit swapping is key).

Ojimaru.8970:

Rezzet.3614:

Flamethrower is useless in WvW if you are attacked by a mesmer you are insta dead since the phantasms will have perma retaliation wich means Retaliation x3 x10 hits if you hit all at same time + confusion.

Strawman argument.

1. You are setting a scene where 3 Phantasms (not Clones) are standing stationary, and clumped together. In WvW.

2. You are setting a scenario where 3 Phantasms (not Clones) won’t die within the third or fifth hit of the Flame Jet. Probably with a level 10 Engineer versus a Mesmer with Signet of Illusion, Illusionary Defender, lots of Power and Toughness and other such conditions.

and you are assuming Every engineer runs a DPS build or FT only build.

phantasms dont need a ridiculously large hp pool to deliver the massive retaliation damage either and what if the engineer has to defend a gat there will be several phatasms at the gate clumped flamethrower is a short medium range weapon wich makes it easy to get confusion too.

Isn’t incendiary powder enough?

Seetoo.9316:

Isn’t incendiary powder enough?

it would be if it wasnt for the fact FT and normal burns are somewhat weak and engi’s main burn comes from pistol dishing massive damage in just 2 seconds.

nakoda.4213:

strength sigil! enhanced performance! or, HGH! also, testing out fire sigil with the buff to air blast.
but, with strength sigil it is rdiculously easy to hit 20+ might stacks, also (edit) you ought to have a base 60% crit (80% w/ perma fury – soz, but medkit swapping is key).

I didn’t have HGH because I wanted to run Elixir gun as well. Plus It’s either HGH or Enhanced performance, can’t have both with Juggernaut.

I think I had decent crits, but my chance was only ~45% (Ran Rabid gear with Knight trinkets). I kept applying Med-kit 5 and Elixir B to keep up the fury, but it seemed like I couldn’t keep it up permanently.

The runes I ran were 4 for condition duration and 2 for boon duration. Can’t remember the names, just remember what they did.

The reason behind going rabid with knight gear and the rune set up I chose was that I had that gear lying around from a few weeks back (failed condition pistol/kit build) and I was going to try out a HGH might stacking elixir/pistol build.

Turns out that for the pistol build I was stacking might a lot easier (and fury), but the throwing elixirs really got on my nerves. It just seems so broken to do so much for so little damage.

All in all it was only money spent on the runes, but I didn’t like either build. Both builds seemed really flimsy and required me to be very selfish with my skills to work. Flamethrower had terrible mobility and no sustain (flame blast is really great now but I had no follow up). It did a little more damage than bombs but not by much.
HGH Pistol/elixirs was terrible, it did terrible damage (Things only started to pick up after 30+ seconds into a fight with all the boon stacking), had no CC, and tossing elixirs was a pain.

I run grenade kit as a staple. I love throwing grenades, but I still hated having to toss elixirs to do better damage.

I don’t know how you guys do it. You must have great timing with your builds, and a lot of patience to put up with them. I’d rather stick to my grenades and bombs until pistols/flamethrowers get some more (well deserved) buffs before I try those again.

I was PM’d asking for my build, so I will put it out here for everyone to look at.

First, a disclaimer.

I am not a theory crafter, I am not a number cruncher. The following link is to the gear, skills, and traits that I use when in sPvP — PVE/Wuvwuv are different. Also, this is what I currently use: there are many things that change depending on my mood and what I am testing.

The build (Bad Link! Bad! Copy + Paste the URL to visit):

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fcAQJAqel0pyaX7ShF17ICoHAWddXiUofN2HFs1DC;ToAg1Cqo8y0loLbROvkFNIYmB

I use Incendiary Powder, Enhanced Performance, Precise Sights, Foreforged Trigger, Juggernaut, Protection Injection, and Deadly Mixture.
I use Rampager PVP trink w/ 2x Lyssa + 2x Monk + 2x Water runes.
I use Sigil of Accuracy and Sigil of Strength
- as strong as the Rifle is (and it is) I prefer the extra sigil option of having both hands busy.

Pistol/Shield, Medkit, Flamethrower, Utility Goggles, Elixir R, Supply Crate.

The point of this build is to PRESS your foes. Stay on them like glue. Get in the face of ranged players. Make them move. Time spent moving is time spent not attacking (sure there are moving attacks, just like FT 1, but the basic premise applies to everyone). Melee are controlled through various knockbacks (push them away, keep them close by chasing.

You use Medkit 5 and Utility goggles for perma fury upkeep (+20% crit)
You use P/S for confusion applications and for Shield 4 knock back and Shield 5 daze.
You use Elixir R for Endurance (I dodge a lot) and the cond removal on the Toolbelt.
You use the FT as your primary damage dealing kit.
You use Incendiary Ammo, Air Blast (since feb 26), and Napalm to maintain burns.

Sigil of Strength and Juggernaut = 15-20 stacks of might (I’ve hit 25 in PVE)
• Keep in mind that this requires you to:

1. keep swapping every 10 or so seconds into Medkit for the EP buff (3 might stacks)
2. use FT 1 liberally to seek crit procs on the sigil (pistol 3 is also very good for this)
3. (optional) replace accuracy sigil with battle sigil so your swapping also adds might.

I find myself often picking a single target and dogging them until they hate me, damage to their allies is icing on the cake.

Things that I often swap:

HGH and Enhanced Performance:
I think that Enhanced Performance is an overall easier way of maintaining might stacks, but the bonus to HGH is that you get the full boon duration buff from alchemy, which makes your Protection Injection essentially permanent with the Water and Monk runes, though, really, the extra 10% isn’t doing much, and the extra POW from Explosions is pretty sexy-times. I typically use Enhanced Performance.
- in PVE I use Exploit Weakness to slow mobs down while farming.

Precise Sights + Protection Injection vs Infused Precision + Invigorating Speed:
I tend to stick with the prior, I don’t find myself needing to go off on really lengthy chases while in combat, and I use the Medkit 5 for swiftness out of combat. On most sPvP maps, this is plenty to get from A to B (A being out of combat, and B being in combat .. ).
- sometimes I swap 10 points from Explosions to Tools for the crit dmg and speedy kits, and when doing so I completely negate the need for swift on crit. The vigor trait is really nice though because I like to dodge a lot. Overall, I stick with Pow.

Protection Injection vs Self-regulating Defense:
The auto Elixir S is really nice, and always fun to watch in the middle of a fray, but with boon duration buffs, I think that a (near) perma protection is a more solid choice.

Elixir R is entirely a preference. C is super handy (you can never have too much cond removal. B is boss, and U is fun for spamming FT 2 (if you are lucky enough to get quickness). I like R because with R and Goggles I have two stun breaks, blindness immunity, and extra endurance.

My play style is very aggressive and mobile. I pick a foe, and I stick to them, I burn them, knock them down, burn them some more, throw some fire on them, knock them down again, confuse them, daze them, then for kicks I burn them again before knocking them down … again.

Air Blast and Shield 4 toss are immeasurably fun and useful, ESPECIALLY now that we can detonate FT 2 when we want to.

FT dmg scales best with POW, but it is a PRE weapon (firearms tree, at least), so its POW gains come from might stacks, and as such, high crit + strength sigil + enhanced performance is where I have found my own sweet spot.

Play it, test it, rip it apart, I leave it to you, but I enjoy this build a heck of a lot and I never find myself wishing I were an Ele.

/2quid

(PS – the nerf that really hit hard was the foodbuff fix. Imma miss my omnom ghosts! but I was so OP with omnoms and this build; the moment I first nommered some berries I knew the nerfs were coming. I could smell them!)

Rezzet.3614:

Ojimaru.8970:

Rezzet.3614:

Flamethrower is useless in WvW if you are attacked by a mesmer you are insta dead since the phantasms will have perma retaliation wich means Retaliation x3 x10 hits if you hit all at same time + confusion.

Strawman argument.

1. You are setting a scene where 3 Phantasms (not Clones) are standing stationary, and clumped together. In WvW.

2. You are setting a scenario where 3 Phantasms (not Clones) won’t die within the third or fifth hit of the Flame Jet. Probably with a level 10 Engineer versus a Mesmer with Signet of Illusion, Illusionary Defender, lots of Power and Toughness and other such conditions.

and you are assuming Every engineer runs a DPS build or FT only build.

phantasms dont need a ridiculously large hp pool to deliver the massive retaliation damage either and what if the engineer has to defend a gat there will be several phatasms at the gate clumped flamethrower is a short medium range weapon wich makes it easy to get confusion too.

If my Engineer (or any other character) has to defend a gate, I’d get on a siege weapon or group up for a push.

Even if you think you can be brave/stupid and go blazing with a Flamethrower, you will fare no better than a Guardian standing in front of a gate with a Staff, eating the same Retaliation and AOEs. Does that make Guardian Staff useless in WvW?

And suddenly you want to bring in Confusion…

Uhhh..

You bring in toolbelt damage for grenades, but neglect to use incendiary ammo for the flamethrower??

You bring in kit refinement damage for grenades, but fail to do the same for flamethrower??

You included damage from rifle5 for grenades, but not for flamethrower??

.. static discharge…

You see what I did there.

I think you should rerun your tests, or just fix the math..

For the toolbelt skill of flamethrower: Add 1k damage.

For flamethrower Kit Refinement: add 1.5k damage over 5 seconds.

Why on earth would you use Jump Shot with flamethrower? Jump shot is a MAJOR part of the build for 100nades. It’s not a major part of the flamethrower build.

This also ignores the fact that even if you add in Kit Refinement and the tool belt skill to the flame thrower build, Grenade kit still out performs it with Grenade barrage alone.

JohnDied.3476:

In fact, if they are shrewd and experienced, a flamethrower engineer can do top notch damage. They just have to do all this stupid bullkitten to do it.

Do what? Swap to Med Kit every 10 seconds for Fury/Might?

Not that hard. Fights tend to develop a rhythm that becomes easy to settle into.

Swap to Elixir Gun for Kit Refinement -> Flamethrower -> Swap to Med Kit during Flame Jet -> Go back to Flamethrower until Super Elixir disappears -> Swap to Elixir Gun for second Super Elixir -> Flamethrower -> Swap to Med Kit during flame Jet -> Go back to Flamethrower until second Super Elixir disappears -> Swap to Elixir Gun for Kit Refinement.

Rinse and repeat.

If I need any extra health I’ll do direct heals with Med Kit before swapping back to Flamethrower. If I need any extra condition removal I’ll drop an Antidote. If that’s not enough I’ll skip the Flamethrower in my rotation and just sit in the Elixir Gun or fire my pistol for Projectile finishers to proc the 20% chance to remove conditions.

Even if I goof up, it’s not like my group will enter crushing defeat because I’m not standing there derping with the Flamethrower. Super Elixir always comes first and always. And I try to have Fury up as much as possible.

It sounds a lot more complicated than it actually is. Everything is conveniently on 10, 20 second cooldowns to where it’s easy to get used to how things work. You build a rotation. You get used to it. It becomes second nature.

How is this any different from any other multi-kit build for the Engineer? Especially if you’re like me and likes incorporating the best skills available at any time with each of your kits/rifle/pistol.

God forbid you try and play an Elementalist. Juggling cooldowns is literally all they do. At least the good ones.

God, so many noobs (or just trolls??) in thread?

This patch - it’s just a spit in the face of Engineers.

Let me clear something for those, who never used FT or used it ocasionally

1. AOE limit.
Only THREE targets. All another AOE (for every class) have FIVE targets limit and only Flame Jet have THREE. Why? Just freakin why?
Coz it was too IMBA with Omnomberry food? But this food already nerfed! Turn back our AOE-limit!
Coz it can be suicidal against Retaliation? So fix that freakin Retaliation, not Flame Jet!

2. Mechanics of the "bla-bla by crit (N sec cooldown)" triggers/food/sigils.
It will works only at ONE target from ALL, affected by AOE. You can use FT toolbelt - it will burn only 1, maybe 2 targets (coz only 3 hits, blocks/misses/evades included, lol). Guardian procs - only 1 target or zero (the same as for IA but only 1 hit). Path 1 trait - only 1 target (coz 3 sec CD). Napalm - very easy to evade from it’s lol-low area and, for sure, noone with brain will not stay in it’s flame.
And (I was laughting as hell after reading that kitten somewhere above, really!) Sigil of Fire- it’s only AOE-damage, not burn!

3. Last tick of the FJ cause burn for all targets, ok. By ONE second! But FJ lasts for 2,25 sec. So will have +10% damage boost only for half-time. In the another words they buff FT damage only by 5%.
Food for Cond Dur? lolwut? Power engi need to eat food for condition duration/damage? Where is logic?

4. Air blast. It will add 2 sec of burning to the already burned(!) targets. Great. So, I’ll do 1st channel of the FJ , then push my targets... out of cone of fire of the FJ ? Who that "genius" who created this? It’s just an Fatality Facepalm!

5. Something about logic. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flamethrower
How can liquid do not cause burning at every tick? Let it will add something around 0.2 sec of burn with EVREY hit. It will not IMBA, but more handful, than useless IA toolbelt.

How can liquid flame hit only THREE targets with so huge flame cone??

How I can blast napalm sphere at the any distanse? Am I installed remote control to it? More logical if it will blast at the 1st collision.

How the hell napalm can lay on the ground in the straight line? (the same question about Molotov Coctail item) No, really, HOW? Maybe developers need to take some consultations from the Vietnam veterans, huh?

why FT toolbelt have so big cooldown? Bomb or Grenade toolbelts have 2 times lesser cooldown but deals 2-3 times more damage and much more useful!
IA must have 15 sec CD, not 60!

Guys, really, If you dunno anything about REAL (not PVE nor sPVP) Engineers, please, leave thread - this will help to Engineers a lot. Thank you very much.

For me is FT one of the best things for engi. Way better than bomb kit. Tho depends why you use it. I wanted some crowd control spells and something to help me in stun, FT wins.

help on stun are you kidding? play elixir R and S and you will have 2 break , 1 invul, 1 stab or camo and an ae rez / remove conditions, add the auto elixir S trait and you will be really hard to kill

@Sangtimental

The thing is, I go 4 kit build, so elixirs are really not my concern with it, I was talking about bomb kit vs flamethrower from my point of view, and there, FT wins.

Sure, coz Bomb #1 - cast-time and 1 sec time lag before blast makes this kit not so good.

But in overall damage and usefulness - Bomb kit way better than FT. Especially after omnom food nerf

Uh, bomb has a pulsing blind and a knock back on a more reliable AoE (circle not cone).

Seetoo.9316:

Uh, bomb has a pulsing blind and a knock back on a more reliable AoE (circle not cone).

And? Do you wanna be just debuffer with your Engi? I’m not – I wanna deal a tons of damage.
And circle means being more deeper in the enemies zerg or just directly inside it.

@SilverWF

Well I said from my point of view, therefore you might see more usefulness in bomb kit, I agree. Just since I changed bomb kit for FT in my build, I’m more effective.

@Seetoo

Yes, pulsing blind which you can’t use in stun like FT AoE blind and AoE knockback is useful only in two occasions imo – big fights where noone knows what AoE is what or against people who don’t know how to dodge it. I played same 4 kit just with bombs instead of FT and a bit different traits, tho I started to notice most people dodge Big Ol’ Bomb so it has no use for me while I’m trying to neutralize / cap point 1v1, but with Flamethrower? People dodge it by luck or if you equip FT, than some people tend to dodge because they expect you to knock them back. But again, its about how you want to use it, why you want to use it and how you can actualy use it. For me FT is just awesome thing, also cause I get 1 condition down with Kit refinement.

EDIT: Btw, I should say that I play mostly PvP arenas therefore I take it from that perspective.

well in pve bomb can be ok but in wvwvw thats just crappy, ennemis moving constantly ( if not you can kill him with shield ) and you put bomb on ground, static, and sorry but FT is really more effectiv with the huge spread and the explosive bolt, for the same damage ( or maybe more i crit 5K5 on bolt and up to 4K5 with the ft 1 ) , very more constant and effective than the static bomb field even with larger radius.

Sorry i’m playing much in wvwvw so i’m will give my point on it but for pve, just starting fracs :p

hf mates !

Sangtimental.4163:

well in pve bomb can be ok but in wvwvw thats just crappy, ennemis moving constantly ( if not you can kill him with shield ) and you put bomb on ground, static, and sorry but FT is really more effectiv with the huge spread and the explosive bolt, for the same damage ( or maybe more i crit 5K5 on bolt and up to 4K5 with the ft 1 ) , very more constant and effective than the static bomb field even with larger radius.

Sorry i’m playing much in wvwvw so i’m will give my point on it but for pve, just starting fracs :p

hf mates !

WvW = retal spam = FT is crap. So are nade builds.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Why on earth would you use Jump Shot with flamethrower? Jump shot is a MAJOR part of the build for 100nades. It’s not a major part of the flamethrower build.

Why on earth wouldnt you? Power rifle burst+FT consistent dmg works well together. And all of those who complains FT’s low dps compared to bomb kit go test against anything that moves mby you figure it out why there is difference.

FYI, it’s lower than rifle. The reason FT get’s compared to bomb is because bomb adhere’s to anet’s philosophy that melee does more damage due to the risk involved with being at melee. The change to FT 2 just solidified its range as a melee kit. For a melee kit (after attaching all its bells and whistles) to do just a little bit less than a ranged weapon (rifle), it’s ridiculous.

retal spam? lol i dont feel it dude really, 2K toughtness 21K pv and good mates in my warband, i play FT every night, doing like 100+ insignias each night, few dies , playing division 2

stop cry about retalliation, nades are good for attack or defend a static point but FT is more effective on open fight ( 70% of time ), if i wanna play support, i go guardian, i wanna dps i play FT, nades and bombs are fun, best, but not the optimal dps, and i spent 150po in stuff and build for test all the build, FT is the best in survability and damage

http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/engineer/?2|a.1n.h4.e.1g.h1b|0.0.0.0.0.0|1c.7d.1c.7d.1n.7d.1n.7d.1n.7d.1g.7d|1n.67.1n.67.1n.67.1n.67.1n.67.1c.67|0.u58b.0.u47c.a6|40.8|e

Seetoo.9316:

FYI, it’s lower than rifle. The reason FT get’s compared to bomb is because bomb adhere’s to anet’s philosophy that melee does more damage due to the risk involved with being at melee. The change to FT 2 just solidified its range as a melee kit. For a melee kit (after attaching all its bells and whistles) to do just a little bit less than a ranged weapon (rifle), it’s ridiculous.

Dmg is probably on par with rifle now tho haven’t done the math, rifle has the range and FT has the cone. How did FT2 change anything it still has 600 range and is easier to actually hit now and FT1 is 425 range so thats still over 3x the base melee range.

Because now you don’t need to stay at 600 for the detonation. You can detonate at 0 for a blast radius of 240 for more reliable damage (0 flight time is huge).

Are you really asking how 425 is not ranged?

Seetoo.9316:

Because now you don’t need to stay at 600 for the detonation. You can detonate at 0 for a blast radius of 240 for more reliable damage (0 flight time is huge).

Are you really asking how 425 is not ranged?

I said what it is you are the one making claims here

Sangtimental.4163:

retal spam? lol i dont feel it dude really, 2K toughtness 21K pv and good mates in my warband, i play FT every night, doing like 100+ insignias each night, few dies , playing division 2

stop cry about retalliation, nades are good for attack or defend a static point but FT is more effective on open fight ( 70% of time ), if i wanna play support, i go guardian, i wanna dps i play FT, nades and bombs are fun, best, but not the optimal dps, and i spent 150po in stuff and build for test all the build, FT is the best in survability and damage

http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/engineer/?2|a.1n.h4.e.1g.h1b|0.0.0.0.0.0|1c.7d.1c.7d.1n.7d.1n.7d.1n.7d.1g.7d|1n.67.1n.67.1n.67.1n.67.1n.67.1c.67|0.u58b.0.u47c.a6|40.8|e

Sure, you cannot imagine that Guard can do way more damage with staff#1 spam, am I right?
And your 2k TOU is LOL – I have 3,2k TOU also as 3k attack, 60% critchance with 40% critpower at my FT-Engi.
And this is not enough in battles 50vs50

Don’t forget air blast now combos incredibly well with offhand pistol burn, I haven’t tested but I think it should work out as a 7k burn over ~12 seconds with my build (not including might). I use elixir gun for some great team support, poison and blast field, especially with kit refinement, sigil of battle because I’m swapping through weapons. Napalm is great for area might coupled with elixir guns new blast and the blind is always useful. FT2 with the update always seems to be off cool down and is actually worth using.

I’m applying loads of conditions, doing loads of condition damage, good direct damage and good team support.

What you talking about? "7k burn" for Power Engi (coz FT means Power, not Condition)???
And how it will help in WvW?

FT2 could only detonate at 600 range before (giving it a dead zone of 360). The only intersection with FT1 would be at ranged 360-425 (a 65 range window). Connect the dots.

Didn’t say I was power. I don’t run in a zerg often because it’s not exactly the most thrilling way to play for me. I’m a hybrid build which I think works best for most engineers. Pistol 4 burn does 2k unmodified over 6 seconds. In a zerg is there anything better than just throwing mindless grenades or bombs? Zerg play is pretty mindless hence the term zerg right?

Glyn.2457:

Zerg play is pretty mindless hence the term zerg right?

So, since it offence to me..
You just afraids of enemies. All you can - just catch poor green-arrow miners and thinking you are very good.
And not, conditions, bombs and grenades not good for the real and massive battles.

SilverWF.4789:

Glyn.2457:

Zerg play is pretty mindless hence the term zerg right?

So, since it offence to me..
You just afraids of enemies. All you can – just catch poor green-arrow miners and thinking you are very good.
And not, bombs and grenades not good for the real and massive battles.

wow yes it definitely shows my play style man. Nice reply dude, really showing me up here! I’m just going to quit the game and cry in the corner cos I’m so afraid.