Guild Wars 2

surely running in a 50 man zerg is the definition of being scared of the enemy, safety in numbers and all that.
As engineers we don’t need to be stuck in this maximum numbers hole, how can we expect to be as versatile as Anet claims us to be when all we are after is warrior like numbers. This class is amazing to play because there are so many combinations of skills, so many ways to play and so many different ways to approach a fight. Flamethrower has finally started to become a weapon that you can use without feeling totally gimped by everything else!

“Diversity” doesn’t cut it when other classes are almost equally diverse. Plus, in their design statement the devs said Eles are actually the kings of versatility. Guess which classes get “taxed” the most for being oh so versatile?

My guild and myself prefer to playing in the real fights.
So they need to turn back omnomberry and buff FT

Ojimaru.8970:

Rezzet.3614:

Flamethrower is useless in WvW if you are attacked by a mesmer you are insta dead since the phantasms will have perma retaliation wich means Retaliation x3 x10 hits if you hit all at same time + confusion.

Strawman argument.

1. You are setting a scene where 3 Phantasms (not Clones) are standing stationary, and clumped together. In WvW.

2. You are setting a scenario where 3 Phantasms (not Clones) won’t die within the third or fifth hit of the Flame Jet. Probably with a level 10 Engineer versus a Mesmer with Signet of Illusion, Illusionary Defender, lots of Power and Toughness and other such conditions.

Uh, have you ever played against a mesmer in WvW? They can summon a practically infinite number of these, and most mesmer phantasms take 2-3 aa to kill. Add confusion into that mix as well. This isn’t only a problem with mesmers, most decent teams stack retaliation before going into a fire fight. The self slaughtering problems are not minor in WvW.

There is no way a FT engineer will be able to beat a competent mesmer, and they dont do very well against thieves either. now look at the WvW meta….

Diversity isn’t rewarding enough in this game. And well, FT has only been useful on offensive conditiondamage builds with the Incendiary Ammo while giving a reasonable amount of CC.

Punkins.2087:

Everyone quotes FT1 damage as junk, but no one ever mentions that its AOE junk, and seem to expect it to show the ZOMGBIGNUMBERS of a single target attack. And seem to genererally fail at aiming it… I never had any problems once used to it.

Rifle 1 (which, afaik, is what most people compare to) is also AoE – granted the AoE is slightly harder to use but it also hits more targets (flamethrower is limited to 3 for some stupid reason).

So I guess we could compare 3x flamethrower autoattacks vs 5x rifle autoattacks if it would make you feel better?

In the builds thread, a FT build similar to this was described,

http://www.intothemists.com/calc/index.php?build=-XRR;2Z-Vv0o5VQkw0;9;49T-T-4;047A;119Ay

Where Juggernaut and HGH ramp up stacks of might, and runes of Hoelbrak, Strength, and Fire buff might duration along with your +30% boon duration from Alchemy. The author said he could maintain 25 stacks of might.

My question is this- have you guys factored in the 25 stacks of might when you compare FT to grenade or bomb kit? I suppose if you do not build for it or gear for it or use buff food for it, it might be hard to get that much might. Has anyone tried this build since the most recent patch?

I’m running a build similar to that one but instead of just might I’m also running boon duration runes to keep protection regen swiftness and fury up for longer. I’m not running hgh but kit refinement but I still manage to keep up around 18 stacks of might through sigil of battle (3 stacks ~34s duration 10s cooldown) and kit swapping. In a group it easily reaches 25 with fgj and combo fields.

Lepew.7890:

In the builds thread, a FT build similar to this was described,

http://www.intothemists.com/calc/index.php?build=-XRR;2Z-Vv0o5VQkw0;9;49T-T-4;047A;119Ay

Where Juggernaut and HGH ramp up stacks of might, and runes of Hoelbrak, Strength, and Fire buff might duration along with your +30% boon duration from Alchemy. The author said he could maintain 25 stacks of might.

My question is this- have you guys factored in the 25 stacks of might when you compare FT to grenade or bomb kit? I suppose if you do not build for it or gear for it or use buff food for it, it might be hard to get that much might. Has anyone tried this build since the most recent patch?

Why you posted this?

You hitting 3 targets under retaliation. If you have good power, especially under 25 Might, Retal will hits you for 400-450 per hit!
So, 5 hits/sec multiple by 3 equal 15. multiple it by 400 equal 6k. Add 2nd second of the Flame Jet – another 6k
You will hit yourself for the TWELVE THOUSANDS damage while your targets will recieve only 4k (5k with crits!) each.

SilverWF.4789:

Lepew.7890:

In the builds thread, a FT build similar to this was described,

http://www.intothemists.com/calc/index.php?build=-XRR;2Z-Vv0o5VQkw0;9;49T-T-4;047A;119Ay

Where Juggernaut and HGH ramp up stacks of might, and runes of Hoelbrak, Strength, and Fire buff might duration along with your +30% boon duration from Alchemy. The author said he could maintain 25 stacks of might.

My question is this- have you guys factored in the 25 stacks of might when you compare FT to grenade or bomb kit? I suppose if you do not build for it or gear for it or use buff food for it, it might be hard to get that much might. Has anyone tried this build since the most recent patch?

Why you posted this?

You hitting 3 targets under retaliation. If you have good power, especially under 25 Might, Retal will hits you for 400-450 per hit!
So, 5 hits/sec multiple by 3 equal 15. multiple it by 400 equal 6k. Add 2nd second of the Flame Jet – another 6k
You will hit yourself for the TWELVE THOUSANDS damage while your targets will recieve only 4k (5k with crits!) each.

You mean that one time when your opponent actually had retaliation up? You know you can stop attacking, hit another target, and then go back again, right? Or, you know you can do something other than just mindlessly fire FT 1, right? Like a knockback?

If you learn to read your opponents, you know that you shouldn’t attack because retal is up, or because you have confusion (which is, imo, deadlier to the FT engie than retal), or whatever.

Do you just run into masses of foes and try to spread FT 1 around and expect it to be uber dmg without the frustration of dying? If so, you are doing it wrong.

nakoda.4213:

SilverWF.4789:

Lepew.7890:

In the builds thread, a FT build similar to this was described,

http://www.intothemists.com/calc/index.php?build=-XRR;2Z-Vv0o5VQkw0;9;49T-T-4;047A;119Ay

Where Juggernaut and HGH ramp up stacks of might, and runes of Hoelbrak, Strength, and Fire buff might duration along with your +30% boon duration from Alchemy. The author said he could maintain 25 stacks of might.

My question is this- have you guys factored in the 25 stacks of might when you compare FT to grenade or bomb kit? I suppose if you do not build for it or gear for it or use buff food for it, it might be hard to get that much might. Has anyone tried this build since the most recent patch?

Why you posted this?

You hitting 3 targets under retaliation. If you have good power, especially under 25 Might, Retal will hits you for 400-450 per hit!
So, 5 hits/sec multiple by 3 equal 15. multiple it by 400 equal 6k. Add 2nd second of the Flame Jet – another 6k
You will hit yourself for the TWELVE THOUSANDS damage while your targets will recieve only 4k (5k with crits!) each.

You mean that one time when your opponent actually had retaliation up? You know you can stop attacking, hit another target, and then go back again, right? Or, you know you can do something other than just mindlessly fire FT 1, right? Like a knockback?

If you learn to read your opponents, you know that you shouldn’t attack because retal is up, or because you have confusion (which is, imo, deadlier to the FT engie than retal), or whatever.

Do you just run into masses of foes and try to spread FT 1 around and expect it to be uber dmg without the frustration of dying? If so, you are doing it wrong.

You know, good teams in the WvW have perma-Retaliation upped at everyone?

And if you learn to read posts you will stop posting your lol-PVE advices to the WvWer.

Hey Silver,

I thought the point was that FT damage can not pace with Grenade or Bomb Kit. My question was did they consider many stacks of might when they made that comparison. Killing yourself by retaliation is a factor in any build that puts out high damage.

Perhaps I do not understand retaliation…do you take retaliation damage in a bomb or grenade build, or does that mechanic not apply to those builds? I suppose in the build linked the 200 toughness from Juggernaut + 300 vitality from alchemy might help you with retaliation.

I am a bit new to engineer…do bombs and grenades not trigger retaliation? Which attacks from FT do? Would 200 toughness from Juggernaut and 300 vit from alchemy help survive?

SilverWF.4789:

And if you learn to read posts you will stop posting your lol-PVE advices to the WvWer.

um, what?

anyway, most of what I talk about is spvp.

re: retaliation:
afaik, retaliation procs from any damage dealt to the player with the buff, but if the player avoids the damage in any way (blocks, dodges, whatever), then the retaliation does not reciprocate damage back to the attacker.

so, since many nades often miss the target, they do not all proc the retaliation at once, but if/when they do, ouch.

On nakoda’s build (mentioned in page 2 near the middle):

Have you ever thought about putting Net Turret in your build for two immobilization attacks?

Sporadicus.1028:

On nakoda’s build (mentioned in page 2 near the middle):

Have you ever thought about putting Net Turret in your build for two immobilization attacks?

yes, and for the longest time I did. and, I do so in my pve/exploring build for making champs easier.

I eventually opted for the dual stun break and extra cond removal to make up for lack of any real toughness outside of Jugg since I use the Rempager ammy.

Another option I ran with for extra burn was to swap Goggles for Battering Ram and Elixir R for Rocket Boots, then put 10pt in to Tools for Speedy Gadgets. Oh, now? 3 knock backs. /titter

Retaliation does damage per hit made. FT can hit 5x per sec vs 1 target. Bomb can hit 2x per sec vs 1 target. Grenades can hit 4x (6x if traited) per sec vs 1 target.

It does about at least 200 damage per instance of retaliation. I say “at least” because you can increase damage by increasing the power of the boon’s source. There is also the sentence saying “Intensity can be stacked up to 5 times.”

Retaliation punishes multi hit abilities.

It’s not an “attack” so I believe it goes through toughness/armor like conditions.

SilverWF.4789:

And if you learn to read posts you will stop posting your lol-PVE advices to the WvWer.

I find it kind of hysterical that you lord over us that you play a lot of WvW. It’s easily the most mindless aspect of the entire game.

Phineas Poe.3018:

SilverWF.4789:

And if you learn to read posts you will stop posting your lol-PVE advices to the WvWer.

I find it kind of hysterical that you lord over us that you play a lot of WvW. It’s easily the most mindless aspect of the entire game.

It’s the only REAL version of this game, and if you’re not smashing your zerg into another zerg, you’re a scrub “lol pve” and should just quit posting in his forum. *pounds chest

On a serious note, if you take a lot of Retal damage using FT, you could just not use it. Not every Kit and Weapon are ideal for every situation.

Phineas Poe.3018:

SilverWF.4789:

And if you learn to read posts you will stop posting your lol-PVE advices to the WvWer.

I find it kind of hysterical that you lord over us that you play a lot of WvW. It’s easily the most mindless aspect of the entire game.

I think every aspect of the game is really important.

SilverWF shouldn’t be bashing on PvE, as it still an important side of the game.

But at the same time, WvW is far from behing the “most mindless aspect of the game”.

I’m a big WvW roamers, and the challenge I get roaming solo is something I can’t find in other aspect of the game. Far from behing mindless. Dynamic and really challenging.

Kardiamond.6952:

I think every aspect of the game is really important.

I agree, but it shouldn’t be the basis for which an Engineer’s skill level is evaluated by.

SilverWF.4789:

You hitting 3 targets under retaliation. If you have good power, especially under 25 Might, Retal will hits you for 400-450 per hit!
So, 5 hits/sec multiple by 3 equal 15. multiple it by 400 equal 6k. Add 2nd second of the Flame Jet – another 6k
You will hit yourself for the TWELVE THOUSANDS damage while your targets will recieve only 4k (5k with crits!) each.

So are we finally coming to a consensus that the Flamethrower is actually a good kit so long as you actually gear properly for it?

Phineas Poe.3018:

SilverWF.4789:

You hitting 3 targets under retaliation. If you have good power, especially under 25 Might, Retal will hits you for 400-450 per hit!
So, 5 hits/sec multiple by 3 equal 15. multiple it by 400 equal 6k. Add 2nd second of the Flame Jet – another 6k
You will hit yourself for the TWELVE THOUSANDS damage while your targets will recieve only 4k (5k with crits!) each.

So are we finally coming to a consensus that the Flamethrower is actually a good kit so long as you actually gear properly for it?

Considering I could put out as much damage with rifle 1 at far less risk and from much greater range, no.

SilverWF.4789:

3. Last tick of the FJ cause burn for all targets, ok. By ONE second! But FJ lasts for 2,25 sec. So will have +10% damage boost only for half-time. In the another words they buff FT damage only by 5%.

This can be perfectly rectified in solo-play by traiting 10/30/0/20/10 going for Incendiary Powder. Tried it myself last night. The loss of Energy Conversion Matrix kind of sucks, but I would have to sustain 10 different buffs at once (i.e., all of them) to match the damage increase from Burning.

I still content that this is totally unnecessary in groups. Between you and a Guardian burning for every fifth attack this is seriously not an issue.

amiable.4823:

Considering I could put out as much damage with rifle 1 at far less risk and from much greater range, no.

From much greater range? So you’re using the auto attack and nothing else? Not really great use of the Rifle in my opinion.

Phineas Poe.3018:

amiable.4823:

Considering I could put out as much damage with rifle 1 at far less risk and from much greater range, no.

From much greater range? So you’re using the auto attack and nothing else? Not really great use of the Rifle in my opinion.

That’s the point, I can achieve the same DPS from range using Rifle 1 than I can using the FT kit. I can do much more damage (especially burst) at close range with a rifle kit than a FT.

Phineas Poe.3018:

SilverWF.4789:

3. Last tick of the FJ cause burn for all targets, ok. By ONE second! But FJ lasts for 2,25 sec. So will have +10% damage boost only for half-time. In the another words they buff FT damage only by 5%.

This can be perfectly rectified in solo-play by traiting 10/30/0/20/10 going for Incendiary Powder. Tried it myself last night. The loss of Energy Conversion Matrix kind of sucks, but I would have to sustain 10 different buffs at once (i.e., all of them) to match the damage increase from Burning.

I still content that this is totally unnecessary in groups. Between you and a Guardian burning for every fifth attack this is seriously not an issue.

Obviously you ignored my post about stuff with cooldown mechanics.

And way more cleare – you didn’t know anything about Guardians.

Can’t answer you more than that.

The minor kit changes don’t save FT. The lack of omnom defence against retaliation and confusion+proced confusion, make it extremely risky to use.

amiable.4823:

Phineas Poe.3018:

amiable.4823:

Considering I could put out as much damage with rifle 1 at far less risk and from much greater range, no.

From much greater range? So you’re using the auto attack and nothing else? Not really great use of the Rifle in my opinion.

That’s the point, I can achieve the same DPS from range using Rifle 1 than I can using the FT kit. I can do much more damage (especially burst) at close range with a rifle kit than a FT.

Hip Shot has a 3/4 of a second Activation time. Flame Jet has 2 1/2 second Activation time. That means for every Flame Jet you should be able to fire about three Hip Shots in the same time.

Over 15 seconds, that means you’ll fire Hip Shot around 18 times. Comparatively, in a 15 second span you would fire 6 Flame Jets. You can test this figure yourself on the Lion’s Arch target dummies.

Looking at each skill, Hip Shot fires for 251 damage. In the time to make a single Flame Jet, you would dish out 753 damage.

But Flame Jet channels 490 direct damage and 328 Burning damage. That’s 818 total damage.

Is there something I’m missing here? Seems to me that Flame Jet does more. And then you have to factor in skills like Juggernaut, Mixed Elixirs, and now Incendiary Powder that additionally add damage to the Flamethrower.

The Rifle only has Rifle Mod, which only adds 10%. 7 stacks of Might and a flat 25% damage increase (so long as the target is burning) seems like Hip Shot DOES NOT do more damage than Flame Jet. If there’s something wrong with what I’m doing here that would prove otherwise, please let me know.

Now…

For burst potential, obviously that’s where the Rifle shines. Between Jump Shot, Blunderbuss, and Overcharged Shot, you’re going to put out a lot more damage than the Flamethrower does with Flame Blast and spamming Flame Jet. Which is why before sigils worked with kits I commonly integrated the Rifle into my FT/EG build, going:

Jump Shot -> Blunderbuss -> Overcharged Shot -> Net Shot -> Flame Blast

When I originally posted the FT/EG build in October on GW2Guru I said standing there derping with Flame Jet was a mistake. And it was. Because swapping to the Rifle or otherwise was better.

But I don’t think that’s any longer the case, just like how I no longer use my Rifle and opt for dual pistols having both Sigil of Strength and Bloodlust.

SilverWF.4789:

And way more cleare – you didn’t know anything about Guardians.

Clearly I just put in my signature that I have a level 80 Guardian for no reason.

SilverWF.4789:

Obviously you ignored my post about stuff with cooldown mechanics.

Obviously I ignored what? Incendiary Powder applies a 2-second Burn with a 3-second cooldown. Flame Jet applies a 1-second Burn. The glorious thing about Burning damage is that the Condition stacks by duration. Meaning the two will work in concert with one another, providing you 100% upkeep of Burning. I tested this out myself last night, and you’re welcome to do the same in Heart of the Mists (LA dummies are immune to Conditions).

That’s a flat 10% damage increase. All the time. Period. The end.

You don’t even need Napalm Specialist.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Is there something I’m missing here? .

Why yes, yes there is. It’s called scaling coefficients.

FT1 = 1.50 (over 10 hits) .15 per hit
Rifle 1 = .599 scaling per hit

This means that rifles ramp up 3-4 times faster than Flame throwers per point of power. This is multiplied by crit effects and +%crit damage. Your own calculations show a relatively small difference in damage at the BASE level. Even a small addition of power will cause rifle to outstrip flame throwers in a damage per second basis if you are only considering auto attacks.

This isn’t even counting the fact that flamejets divide their damage between power and condition damage, causing them to fall even further behind a pure build that lets you stack pow/prec/crit damage.

the only thing FT really needs is a real #5 skill something like

“Melting ground: melt the group around you causing dmg over time and enemies move 50% slower” last 5s 40s CD

and making #2 a blast finisher

they cannot boost the damage because if anyone haven’t noticed the FT hits everything in front of you.. it’s greatest strength is not how much single target damage it can make but how many mobs it can damage, so if boosted even by a little this would unbalance because you’re hitting literally everything, so basically what this kit needs to be successful, its a little more utility

This is to compare FT1+FT2 with rifle1 + static discharge and plain bomb1. These numbers are the lower values taken from tests so take it with a grain of salt.

Uses http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fcAQBgEYUBAA9AAAAQkCAA4TBAA
10/30/0/20/10 in favor of FT
3141 attack
56% crit 196% crit damage
bleed damage = 58
burn damage = 404
Assuming a really long time frame
(x stacks of bleed for y sec) = (y stacks of bleed for x sec)
(x stacks of vulnerability for y sec) = (y stacks of vulnerability for x sec)
Sharp Shooter ~ 1 stack 3sec bleed at 30% chance on crit (0sec icd, meaning “per attack”)
~ 58 × 3 × 0.3 × 0.56
~ 29 dps per attack
Incendiary Powder ~ 2sec burn at 33% chance on crit (3sec icd)
~ (404 × 2/3) x 0.33 × 0.56
~ 50 dps
Precise Sights ~ +1% direct damage for 3sec at 50% on crit (0sec icd , means “per attack”)
~ 3% x 0.5 × 0.56
~ 0.84% more direct damage per attack
Shrapnel ~ 1 stack 13sec bleed at 15% chance (0sec icd, means per attack)
~ 58 × 13 × .15
~ 113 dps per attack

FT ~1500 normal damage at 56% crit + 404 burn damage over 2.25sec
~ ((1500 × 0.44) + (1500 × 1.96 × 0.56) + 404)/2.25
~ (660 + 1647 + 404)/2.25
~ 1204
With sharp shooter +29 dps per attack 5 attacks per sec
~ +145
With incendiary powder +50 dps
With precise sights + 0.84% x 5 attacks x (2307)/2.25
~ +43dps
Total FT dps ~ 1442 dps

With Flame blast (roughly) 1800 detonate damage + 700 path damage
notes
- you can detonate as soon as you use the skill via double tapping 2 but you lose out on the path damage(0.5sec cast)
- you can wait about half a sec for the path damage to hit at melee(1sec cast)
- your cycle will be 2 flame jets + 1 flame blast over about 5.5sec
Without path damage
~((1800 × 0.44) + (1800 × 1.96 × 0.56))
~792 + 1976
~2768
2flame jets is 4.5sec
~4.5 × 1442
~6489
+ FT1
~(6489 + 2768)/(4.5 + 0.5)
~1851dps
No incendiary powder because the 2nd FT1 will already have triggered it
With sharpshooter +29dps per attack 1 attack per cycle
+29
With precise sights + 0.84% x 1 attack x (2306)/5 sec cycle
+4

With path damage
~((2500 × 0.44) + (2500 × 1.96 × 0.56)
~1100 + 2744
~3844
+FT1
~(6489 + 3844)/(4.5 + 1)
~1879dps
No incendiary powder because the 2nd FT1 will already have triggered it
With sharpshooter +29dps per attack 2 attacks per cycle
+58
With precise sights + 0.84% x 2 attacks x (3383)/5.5 sec cycle
+10
Total FT1 + FT2 dps ~ 1884 dps (without path damage) or 1947 dps (with path damage)

Rifle ~ 600 normal damage at 56% crit over 0.75sec
~ ((600 × 0.44) + (600 × 1.96 × 0.56))/0.75
~ (264 + 659)/0.75
~ 1230
With sharp shooter +29 dps per attack 1.33 attack per sec
~ +39
With incendiary powder + 50 dps
With precise sights + 0.84% x 1.33 attack x 1230
~ +14
Total rifle dps ~ 1283 dps

gonna leave out precise sights for static discharge

With static discharge (roughly 450 damage) via surprise shot (roughly 500 damage)
~((950 × 0.44) + (950 × 1.96 × 0.56))/9
~(418 + 1043)/9
~162 dps
With sharp shooter +29 dps per attack 2 attacks per 9 sec
~6
No incendiary powder due to rifle 1 activating it

With static discharge via throw wrench (900 × 2) every 20.5 sec
~((2250 × 0.44) + (2250 × 1.96 × 0.56))/20.5
~(990 + 2470)/20.5
~169 dps
With sharp shooter +29 dps per attack 3 attacks every 20.5 sec
~4

With static discharge via battering ram (1200) every 25.25 sec
~((1650 × 0.44) + (1650 × 1.96 × 0.56))/25.25
~(726 + 1811)/25.25
~100 dps
With sharp shooter +29 dps per attack 2 attacks per 9 sec
~6

Total rifle1 + static discharge ~ 1730 dps

Bomb ~ 1100 normal damage at 56% crit over 0.5sec
~ ((1100 × 0.44) + (1100 × 1.96 × 0.56))/0.5
~ (484 + 1207)/0.5
~ 3382 dps
With sharp shooter +29 dps per attack 2 attacks per sec
~ +58
With incendiary powder + 51 dps
With precise sights +0.84% x 2 attacks x 3382
~ +57
With shrapnel +113 dps per attack 2 attacks per sec
~ +226
Total bomb dps ~ 3549 dps(incendiary powder) 3723 dps (shrapnel)

FT: 1442 dps
FT1 + FT2 dps: 1792 dps or 1863 dps
Rifle: 1283 dps
Rifle + static discharge: 1730 dps
Bomb: 3549 or 3723 dps

Please note that both the rifle and bomb are lacking their +10% damage traits. It got better (but still doing ranged dps at melee).

Your first couple points are a lot of bugs that I’ve noticed as well. Combat in general still needs a lot of work, but Flamethrower seems at a disadvantage in terms of intuitiveness. Also, I notice, with stationary objects that take damage, that the Flamethrower misses after a full auto-attack, even if it is aimed directly at the object. It will continue to do damage after this, but it is still annoying. Really needs to be fixed.
I’m bad at aiming in mid-combat, so I don’t use grenades (I feel like it takes my focus away from mobility). I never understood bombs much….
CC or more power. With less bugs. I think Flamethrower would be much more enjoyable this way.

Nice work, Seetoo. I’d quote your post for credit but my browser doesn’t like quoting big posts on this forum.

amiable.4823:

Phineas Poe.3018:

Is there something I’m missing here? .

Why yes, yes there is. It’s called scaling coefficients.

FT1 = 1.50 (over 10 hits) .15 per hit
Rifle 1 = .599 scaling per hit

This means that rifles ramp up 3-4 times faster than Flame throwers per point of power.

I don’t understand where you’re coming from here. Seems to me Flame Jet scales better with Power than Hip Shot: 1.5 is a larger multiplier than .599; but because it’s a channeled attack, even for the higher coefficient, Hip Shot comes out on top simply because you get off 3 shots in the span of one Flame Jet.

Even if that’s true, there is a negligible difference between the two that is likely to be canceled out anyway by the higher skill damage of Flame Jet. I’m not sure what you mean by the Rifle “ramping up” or where you get the “3-4 times faster” figure. If you could be more direct about that I’d appreciate it. Simply trying to get to the truth of the matter here.

I have to say, after making a flamethrower/condition build that required might stacking, I wen’t ahead and used the same gear but with my bomb healer build. I am very happy with the result.

I switched my knight trinkets for clerics, and switched my condition runes for runes of altruism. Now my bombs and grenades do about the same direct damage than before, only I can stack conditions like crazy with them, on top of healing support.

I may not prefer the flamethrower, but the stuff you guys use to buff it sure is great for bomb builds as well. I’m a very happy camper with this new set up.

It just means you scale with power more per sec with just auto.
FT 1.5/2.25 ~ 0.667
rifle 0.599/0.75 ~ 0.799

But we can’t look at FT for its auto alone anymore. The dead zone for FT2 is gone. You have to look at FT1 with FT2 now.

Seeto, did you include the new bonus 10% damage Flame Jet gets on Burning targets?

@ Ojimaru
Yes.

The thing is, with HGH, Juggernaut and might stacking runes, the flamethrower looks very good on paper and does excellent aoe damage under ideal conditions, such as in PvE where groups of enemies don’t move much. However its damage application drops drastically in sPvP and WvW where you either need to burst the enemy down or have some kind of stun/immobilize/cripple to stop them from escaping. The flamethrower doesn’t have this; it is incredibly hard to get chased down and die to a flamethrower. I can see it being useful for its combo field/CC/aoe damage in certain group builds but by design, the flamethrower isn’t very useful on its own.

Looking at your methodology again (for nth time), I think it’s rather flawed because it assumes the same stat set and Traits are optimal for all three cases (FT, Rifle and Bomb). For example, the Trait setup does not make Explosive Powder available, implying it is not used for calculation.

EDIT: Misread calculations.

2Seetoo.9316
Looks cool, but like craze theorycrafting.

Go and test it in the real fight - you will see the differense

@ silver
These are ingame numbers (rounded down for easier calculations) . You do tests in a controlled environment relying on math for the RNG (crit chance, crit procs). We have no meters, how else do you expect we come up with numbers?

How about you do some tests then?

@ ojimaru
Its a control group. For the same gear and trait investment, in a “perfect setting” you see how an “optimized” FT measures up to non-optimized rifle and bomb.

I want to measure dps. To do that everything else (but the weapon) must be the same.

Guys, I know I’m parroting myself, but.. flamethrower is worth the slot. But you’re not supposed to stay in it. Swap to flamethrower, push 2, tap 2 again at the right moment, maybe drop Napalm, then go back to your other damage method for ~5 seconds before busting out another hadouken.

So what can we use that fits the 5 sec window?

um 30 in firearms, 30 in alchemy, as far as I’m concerned, got a pretty huge buff. espcially those HGH builds that run Flamethrower. you’re dealing just less than +60% damage against bleeding foes, burning foes, with nice might stacks (with VII in alchemy). With pure zerker armor/trinkets that is huge. lets forget that you’re also dealing condi. gonna argue why this kit doesn’t rock? LOLZZZ

I’d say grenade kit’s auto attack is your ‘down time’ auto. Juggle flame blast, acid bomb, jump shot, blunderbuss, grenade barrage, shrapnel grenade, and freeze grenade. When those are on cooldown, just.. use throw grenade. You’ll never use it for more than 4-5 hits anyway – don’t forget to swap to medkit every now and then for 3 stacks of might and to drop stimulant!

Bah!! Imma go stick to my non damage oriented fisherman. If they bring it up higher to maybe 75% melee damage then I’ll revisit the juggernaut FT.

Seetoo.9316:

It just means you scale with power more per sec with just auto.
FT 1.5/2.25 ~ 0.667
rifle 0.599/0.75 ~ 0.799

But we can’t look at FT for its auto alone anymore. The dead zone for FT2 is gone. You have to look at FT1 with FT2 now.

Well then you should include Rifle 3 in your calculations as well. This is very easy to test, put in a berzerker jewel and go into the mists and auto attack with a rifle build, then switch to flamethrower build and do the same. (I am assume you are going to use a semi-optimized build for both, with either an hgh build for rifle or a build focused on the tool lone to mirror standard static discharge builds). If you compare just autoattacks rifle comes out on top (or has for me when i tested), if you compare ft1+2 with rifle 1+3 +static discharge rifle still comes out on top.

I chose to exclude rifle 3 4 5 because they are melee skills. I chose to include static discharge because they have at least 900 range on some of the toolbelt skills.