Guild Wars 2

Even if arguendo your calculations are correct what is the dps difference here?

Rifle 1730
FT 1863

So you gain about 130 dps at the expense of having to be in melee range in a glass cannon spec, with a buggy cone that often doesn’t properly connect? Does not seem like a worthwhile tradeoff to me.

I never said it was. If the pro FT’s ignore the math (they often do) because they “feel” it is not bad, nothing I say will change that. The math is far from perfect, but it’s not far off.

I stand with they op on this (not worth it).

Flamethrowers should feel like Hellstorms from CoF get close enough and you ll regret it and fast if you dont gain distance.

amiable.4823:

So you gain about 130 dps at the expense of having to be in melee range in a glass cannon spec, with a buggy cone that often doesn’t properly connect?

This is where I have to re-iterate: the Flamethrower is not a melee kit. 450 range is not “melee.” 100-150 range is melee, which is where the Tool Kit is used.

Before this patch it was best used at its maximum range, which is well outside the danger of melee swings. The reason for that is because Flame Blast couldn’t be detonated—it did it on its own at 600 range. With a 240 blast radius, if you’re standing 450 Range from your target, Flame Blast will clip through the target (for about 1-2K damage) and then detonate for an additional 3-4K damage every 4.5 seconds.

You guys are acting like Flame Blast is just now a part of the rotation but it always was, and it was very easy to make it work. Solo-play I always just used it in conjunction with the Rifle’s Net Shot.

And what’s this about “glass cannon?” I wear Knight’s/Soldier’s with Emerald jewelry in group play and I still get great damage out of the kit. Because regardless of what gear I’m wearing I still get 20-25 Might stacks and help sustain the group’s Fury stack.

If you are wearing knights gear then you are doing significantly less damage because of the synergy lost on the +crit percentage. But hey, post a video of you using a flamethrower spec in WvW solo/group play, show us how it is viable.

I’m sure, he didn’t have one or will say something " my comp too weak for recording"

Phineas Poe.3018:

1. No offense, but I don’t really care enough to do that. I’m willing to talk about this here over a few posts but I’m not going to go to such lengths as that. I feel like I’ve wasted enough time trying to convince people around here that the Flamethrower is a viable option. At this point you can try it yourself or stick with what you have. No skin off my back.

2. Except Knight’s/Soldier’s offer the same amount of Power per slot as Berserker’s does? With an even higher crit percentage?

Look at it yourself. The only thing you lose out on is critical damage in favor of Toughness/Vitality. Which I’ll gladly take any day of the week when I’m facing difficult content.

3. I do have a full set of Berserker’s and Ruby jewelry on hand at any time if the group needs additional DPS. It’s amazing how much you can fit into those 18-slot invisible bags.

No offense, but then all you are really doing is useless theorycrafting (but that has been pointed out repeatedly by plenty of folks). As to point 2, I don’t even know what you are saying here. You are losing a massive amount of damage in knights gear because even if you crit slightly more often your crits are much weaker than someone in bezerkers. Point 3: good for you!

amiable.4823:

your crits are much weaker than someone in bezerkers.

25%, to be exact.

It amuses me that you call this “useless theorycrafting” even though JohnDied tested out the stuff I’ve posted and others and agrees that the FT is way better than you guys are bantering about.

You can see peoples’ minds change over the course of just a couple pages.

Fact is: use it or don’t. I’m just offering an alternative way to play the game that actually works and doesn’t have anything to do with the Grenade Kit.

Peace.

Phineas Poe.3018:

amiable.4823:

your crits are much weaker than someone in bezerkers.

25%, to be exact.

It amuses me that you call this “useless theorycrafting” even though JohnDied tested out the stuff I’ve posted and others and agrees that the FT is way better than you guys are bantering about.

You can see peoples’ minds change over the course of just a couple pages.

Fact is: use it or don’t. I’m just offering an alternative way to play the game that actually works and doesn’t have anything to do with the Grenade Kit.

Peace.

Full zerkers gear increases crit damage by 50% not counting runes and sigils. If you are having fun, good on you, but a novice picking up this thread should be made aware of the relatively serious shortcomings of what you are suggesting vis-a-vis other alternative builds.

amiable.4823:

Full zerkers gear increases crit damage by 50% not counting runes and sigils.

With runes/jewelry it can be more than 100% – my Bers Elem have 98% but with Knight runes in gear (Tou/preci/power)

For some reason if you stand just under 600 range and use flame blast without using detonate it will hit 3 times, one hit for passing through and two explosions.

the other consideration in the calculations is the AoE dmg; bomb and ft are both AoE weapons, technically.

But since I am not a numbers guy, I put it to you, Seetoo, should the potential DPS of the FT#1+FT#2 be factored by their maximum number of targets (Bomb kit as well)?

I am not sold that more targets reduces sustained DPS though (i do agree it does less per target with more than 5 targets, but the overall sustained dps ought not be changing just because there are more targets). Since tests are meant to be controlled, isn’t FT1 3x whatever it does to a single dummy, and FT2 5x, since they can hit that many targets before losing any single target dps? Likewise, Bombkit/nadekit should have its DPS factored by up to 5 since a single bomb/volley can hit 5 targets for the same amount?

with the flamethrower being a mad crit proccing machine and with that +10% on burning targets buff i started thinking about taking up points in explosives again for the burn on crit trait. Increasing total burn uptime in such a manner the +10% should basically be up 24/7.

nakoda.4213:

the other consideration in the calculations is the AoE dmg; bomb and ft are both AoE weapons, technically.

But since I am not a numbers guy, I put it to you, Seetoo, should the potential DPS of the FT#1+FT#2 be factored by their maximum number of targets (Bomb kit as well)?

I am not sold that more targets reduces sustained DPS though (i do agree it does less per target with more than 5 targets, but the overall sustained dps ought not be changing just because there are more targets). Since tests are meant to be controlled, isn’t FT1 3x whatever it does to a single dummy, and FT2 5x, since they can hit that many targets before losing any single target dps? Likewise, Bombkit/nadekit should have its DPS factored by up to 5 since a single bomb/volley can hit 5 targets for the same amount?

FT1 isnt a 3target hit skill, it hits 5 like normal aoe’s do rather than like a cleave attack.
Something else i really like about FT as well is the fact the FT1 keeps on doing dmg, theres a smaller ammount of “overdamage” so to speak. There’s more effective dmg than when you compare it to the grenades.

Let me explain this:

Lets say you are grinding an event with a mass ammount of mobs (lets say 30 are alive at once) and you throw in grenades. You throw them in waves, not continuesly. When the grenades land they do a set ammount of dmg all at once on a set ammount of targets. If some targets died in the progress all overdmg done to them was lost and you’re not dealing extra dmg to remaining targets till the next wave of nades.

Flamethrower is different. It’s more like a pulsing aoe. The dmg comes in 10 waves per attack (rather than the grenade’s 1 attack 1 wave). lets say some targets die in the middle of the flame jet then the remaining waves of the flamejet simply start hurting other targets, losing less effective dmg on said dead target and doing more effective dmg because it dynamically switches to live targets even during that 1 attack.

Nades don’t do that.
It’s a terrible thing trying to throw maths on but it’s a very important thing to note when comparing the 2.

amiable.4823:

Phineas Poe.3018:

amiable.4823:

your crits are much weaker than someone in bezerkers.

25%, to be exact.

It amuses me that you call this “useless theorycrafting” even though JohnDied tested out the stuff I’ve posted and others and agrees that the FT is way better than you guys are bantering about.

You can see peoples’ minds change over the course of just a couple pages.

Fact is: use it or don’t. I’m just offering an alternative way to play the game that actually works and doesn’t have anything to do with the Grenade Kit.

Peace.

Full zerkers gear increases crit damage by 50% not counting runes and sigils. If you are having fun, good on you, but a novice picking up this thread should be made aware of the relatively serious shortcomings of what you are suggesting vis-a-vis other alternative builds.

I guess we can’t have peace, then.

You got me there. It was a misreading on my part. With Berserker armor and jewelry (with slotted ruby orbs) it’s a total of 48% critical damage. I will admit I made a mistake there. I’d blame that I hadn’t yet had my morning coffee, but that’s neither here nor there.

Tested on a Mists heavy golem, with no traits, the Flamethrower hits for about 100 damage per strike—and crits for 150—with Soldier’s trinket. With the 48% increase, that would be about 225 damage instead. If you crit every strike (x10) that would mean you would dish out 2250 damage per Flame Jet with Berserker’s and 1500 with Soldier’s. I’m sure this math is wrong somewhere here and you’re free to correct it, but the point is that there is a difference.

Not going to argue that Berserker’s doesn’t dish out better damage because it does; my argument is that (1) you don’t need to gear as a “glass cannon” to get good DPS out of the Flamethrower and (2) it is not a melee kit. Between the FT, EG, and your weapon, you have more than plenty CC to keep whatever your target is at range.

Your refusal to respond to these points is why I don’t see the point in making a YouTube video about this. Just look over the course of this thread; when one misconception about the Flamethrower is corrected, simply another one replaces it. If it isn’t that the Flamethrower dishes garbage damage (which it doesn’t) it’s that it’s a melee kit (which it’s not) and requires Berserker’s to be a good DPS weapon (which it doesn’t).

I can’t win with you people, but I did want to admit that I was incorrect in my previous statement. So that’s that.

Vyxion.6358:

with the flamethrower being a mad crit proccing machine and with that +10% on burning targets buff i started thinking about taking up points in explosives again for the burn on crit trait. Increasing total burn uptime in such a manner the +10% should basically be up 24/7.

Try to read that trait description more accurate, than think about it’s usefulness for the FT

SilverWF.4789:

Vyxion.6358:

with the flamethrower being a mad crit proccing machine and with that +10% on burning targets buff i started thinking about taking up points in explosives again for the burn on crit trait. Increasing total burn uptime in such a manner the +10% should basically be up 24/7.

Try to read that trait description more accurate, than think about it’s usefulness for the FT

I’ve already responded to this point.

Anyone properly geared to run the Flamethrower is going to have at least 40% crit percentage, if not nearer to 50%. Even with 6/6 Soldier’s insignia armor, which adds zero Precision, just from wearing Emerald jewelry and having 30 points in Firearms you’ll have 44% crit.

That means that, on average, out of the 10 strikes Flame Jet channels over 2.5 seconds, 4-5 of them will crit.

With a 33% chance to Burn on crit, that means you’re pretty much going to have that proc every time you shoot a Flame Jet. 2-second Burn. Every 2.5 second channel. And then there’s a 1-second Burn at the end of each Flame Jet. So you’ve got 3 seconds of Burning for each Flame Jet channel.

The 3-second cool down on Incendiary Powder doesn’t matter, because it takes about half a second before you start your next Flame Jet channel. Like I iterated before, you get about 5-6 Flame Jet streams per 15 seconds.

And if you’re running defensively and don’t feel comfortable with where your crit percentage is at, you can use Napalm Specialist or Condition Duration food to compensate. But this is not necessary.

Do I need to make a YouTube video about this too? Maybe I should start making a list.

Phineas Poe.3018:

SilverWF.4789:

Vyxion.6358:

with the flamethrower being a mad crit proccing machine and with that +10% on burning targets buff i started thinking about taking up points in explosives again for the burn on crit trait. Increasing total burn uptime in such a manner the +10% should basically be up 24/7.

Try to read that trait description more accurate, than think about it’s usefulness for the FT

I’ve already responded to this point.

Anyone properly geared to run the Flamethrower is going to have at least 40% crit percentage, if not nearer to 50%. Even with 6/6 Soldier’s insignia armor, which adds zero Precision, just from wearing Emerald jewelry and having 30 points in Firearms you’ll have 44% crit.

That means that, on average, out of the 10 strikes Flame Jet channels over 2.5 seconds, 4-5 of them will crit.

With a 33% chance to Burn on crit, that means you’re pretty much going to have that proc every time you shoot a Flame Jet. 2-second Burn. Every 2.5 second channel. And then there’s a 1-second Burn at the end of each Flame Jet. So you’ve got 3 seconds of Burning for each Flame Jet channel.

The 3-second cool down on Incendiary Powder doesn’t matter, because it takes about half a second before you start your next Flame Jet channel. Like I iterated before, you get about 5-6 Flame Jet streams per 15 seconds.

And if you’re running defensively and don’t feel comfortable with where your crit percentage is at, you can use Napalm Specialist or Condition Duration food to compensate. But this is not necessary.

Do I need to make a YouTube video about this too? Maybe I should start making a list.

Mechanics of the “bla-bla by crit (N sec cooldown)” triggers/food/sigils.
It will works only at ONE target from ALL, affected by AOE. You can use FT toolbelt – it will burn only 1, maybe 2 targets (coz only 3 hits, blocks/misses/evades included, lol). Guardian procs – only 1 target or zero (the same as for IA but only 1 hit). Path 1 trait – only 1 target (coz 3 sec CD). Napalm – very easy to evade from it’s lol-low area and, for sure, noone with brain will not stay in it’s flame.

I’m repeating this for you at the third time – what’s wrong with your brain?

Vyxion.6358:

nakoda.4213:

the other consideration in the calculations is the AoE dmg; bomb and ft are both AoE weapons, technically.

But since I am not a numbers guy, I put it to you, Seetoo, should the potential DPS of the FT#1+FT#2 be factored by their maximum number of targets (Bomb kit as well)?

I am not sold that more targets reduces sustained DPS though (i do agree it does less per target with more than 5 targets, but the overall sustained dps ought not be changing just because there are more targets). Since tests are meant to be controlled, isn’t FT1 3x whatever it does to a single dummy, and FT2 5x, since they can hit that many targets before losing any single target dps? Likewise, Bombkit/nadekit should have its DPS factored by up to 5 since a single bomb/volley can hit 5 targets for the same amount?

FT1 isnt a 3target hit skill, it hits 5 like normal aoe’s do rather than like a cleave attack.
Something else i really like about FT as well is the fact the FT1 keeps on doing dmg, theres a smaller ammount of “overdamage” so to speak. There’s more effective dmg than when you compare it to the grenades.

Nope, just tested 5 seconds ago in the mists on the target golems. Flamethrower #1 skill only hits 3 targets. It sometimes feels like it hits more because if you move it around, half the channel can hit one guy, and the other half hits another guy, but you can only hit 3 people per tick.

SilverWF.4789:

Mechanics of the “bla-bla by crit (N sec cooldown)” triggers/food/sigils.
It will works only at ONE target from ALL, affected by AOE. You can use FT toolbelt – it will burn only 1, maybe 2 targets (coz only 3 hits, blocks/misses/evades included, lol). Guardian procs – only 1 target or zero (the same as for IA but only 1 hit). Path 1 trait – only 1 target (coz 3 sec CD). Napalm – very easy to evade from it’s lol-low area and, for sure, noone with brain will not stay in it’s flame.

I’m repeating this for you at the third time – what’s wrong with your brain?

I never said anything about Napalm. I was talking about Napalm Specialist, which is a trait in the Firearms tree (20% increase in Burning duration). Napalm may be an option to burn multiple targets, but not everyone here cares about how viable skills are in WvW alone. Is this the WvW forum? Please point me to the Engineer folder.

So it only burns one target. That target still has 100% Burning applied to it the entire time I’m using the Flamethrower or near to it, which is where I took issue with your statement.

At the WvW there is no goal to kill ONE SINGLE target! I must to deal MASSIVE DPS - how the hell you can’t see what I’m talking about?

Woops, wrong thread.

SilverWF.4789:

At the WvW there is no goal to kill ONE SINGLE target! I must to deal MASSIVE DPS – how the hell you can’t see what I’m talking about?

Oh, I can. The problem is that you can’t tell that no one else cares about WvW.

You do realize you basically just quoted a post Vyxion wrote about using the Flamethrower in PvE over the Grenade Kit and then rambled on about how you need to burn more than one target at a time in WvW.

This isn’t the WvW folder. Please take off the blinders and stop altering this conversation into WvW-only utility of the Flamethrower.

Thanks.

Thi is Engineers folder, so my posts will be here.
Wanna talk about sPvP go there:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp

PvE in the game very easy - no need to talk about it.

So 0 – 150 is what makes melee. That must mean 151 is ranged. I guess that makes d/d elems ranged. Ranged is at least 900. You only have 2 choices: melee or ranged. This is black and white. There is no grey.

So ask the questions.
Can 425 reach 900? No. It can’t be ranged.
Can 425 reach 150? Yes. I can be melee.

Since it can not be ranged (and the only other option is melee), then it can only be classified as melee. Melee with a longer reach is still melee. A 2 inch blade has a longer reach than a 1 inch blade and yet both are still melee. A 10 ft pole has a much longer reach than say a 3 ft bat, but it’s still melee because you can’t reach 100 ft with it.

Seetoo.9316:

So 0 – 150 is what makes melee. That must mean 151 is ranged. I guess that makes d/d elems ranged. Ranged is at least 900. You only have 2 choices: melee or ranged. This is black and white. There is no grey.

I think if you’re close enough to where you’re getting hit by a Warrior swinging his weapon, you’re in “melee range.”

450 is well outside of that.

I would also modify your classifications as something being short range, medium range, or long range.

The Flamethrower is a medium range weapon. It is not a “melee” weapon. Every weapon in the game can be used at 150 range, so I think that’s a pretty deceptive marker. Nothing is stopping you from using Hip Shot at 150 range. Some might say that is where the Rifle is intended to be used. Yet it can be traited to be fired at 1,200 range; so is the Rifle a melee weapon or a range weapon? Is it both? Or is it just how you use it?

Because when you use the Flamethrower at 450 range you are not getting hit by any pointy objects any more than you would be with the Rifle at 1,200 range.

I also disagree that “there is no grey” considering I would argue that the Engineer is a pretty grey-area class on the whole.

Seetoo.9316:

So 0 – 150 is what makes melee. That must mean 151 is ranged. I guess that makes d/d elems ranged. Ranged is at least 900. You only have 2 choices: melee or ranged. This is black and white. There is no grey.

So ask the questions.
Can 425 reach 900? No. It can’t be ranged.
Can 425 reach 150? Yes. I can be melee.

Since it can not be ranged (and the only other option is melee), then it can only be classified as melee. Melee with a longer reach is still melee. A 2 inch blade has a longer reach than a 1 inch blade and yet both are still melee. A 10 ft pole has a much longer reach than say a 3 ft bat, but it’s still melee because you can’t reach 100 ft with it.

Ooooooor mby its short ranged attack and glass is half full?

fortunately this is a video game, where melee is a swung weapon and ranged is anything projectile, not real life where the length of your reach actually matter, ergo:

melee = mace, hammer, dagger, sword, etc
ranged = short/long bow, rifle, pistol, etc.

ft is ranged because it is a projectile weapon. short or long range is irrelevant.

edits:
the question is whether ft 1 is a projectile or not, i can see why you would think it is not.
ie: mesmer gs1 is also a projectile attack, not a melee attack even though it is a “melee” weapon.
as such, all weapons then may have melee and/or ranged attacks (throw dagger).

Vyxion.6358:

FT1 isnt a 3target hit skill, it hits 5 like normal aoe’s do rather than like a cleave attack.
Something else i really like about FT as well is the fact the FT1 keeps on doing dmg, theres a smaller ammount of “overdamage” so to speak. There’s more effective dmg than when you compare it to the grenades.

Let me explain this:

Lets say you are grinding an event with a mass ammount of mobs (lets say 30 are alive at once) and you throw in grenades. You throw them in waves, not continuesly. When the grenades land they do a set ammount of dmg all at once on a set ammount of targets. If some targets died in the progress all overdmg done to them was lost and you’re not dealing extra dmg to remaining targets till the next wave of nades.

Flamethrower is different. It’s more like a pulsing aoe. The dmg comes in 10 waves per attack (rather than the grenade’s 1 attack 1 wave). lets say some targets die in the middle of the flame jet then the remaining waves of the flamejet simply start hurting other targets, losing less effective dmg on said dead target and doing more effective dmg because it dynamically switches to live targets even during that 1 attack.

Nades don’t do that.
It’s a terrible thing trying to throw maths on but it’s a very important thing to note when comparing the 2.

If enemies were in the range that FT could hit, lets say 425, the grenades will not be in waves. Thus, damage would be more consistent and there would not be as much difference in consistency comparing FT to grenade kit.

Give FT 1500 range and perhaps FT has a place over grenade kit.

If you attack one foe with the FT, it does 10x hits to that one mob, dealing X dmg. If you then put in a second mob and a third mob in the same spot, it is now doing X dmg to 3 targets, which is 3x the dmg. Now, between 3 and 10 targets, nothing changes (10×3 or 3×10, same value), add more, and then things start to get wonky. But, in ideal conditions, the ft#1 can strike up to 30 times in two seconds. This is a weapon that thrives against multiple opponents, while its single target dmg is reduced.

This is not to say that if 1 target ~1850dps then 3 target ~5550dps, but rather to say that up to 3 targets, dps increases over a single target up to a ceiling. In sPvP or in WvW or in PvE that means that ft is best against large groups of enemies in prolonged fights (point defense, zerg disruption, farming/trash-mob tanking).

it does not need 1500 range to compete with grenades because it isn’t supposed to compete with grenades, it is designed for a different style of play.

afaik, this isn’t “testable” on dummies because they dont move and you cannot crit.

OmegaCael.1450:

Give FT 1500 range and perhaps FT has a place over grenade kit.

Why does it need to be used at 1500 range to have a place over the Grenade Kit? The Grenade Kit is great at what it does, but you are no where near as durable/safe at close range.

Phineas Poe.3018:

OmegaCael.1450:

Give FT 1500 range and perhaps FT has a place over grenade kit.

Why does it need to be used at 1500 range to have a place over the Grenade Kit? The Grenade Kit is great at what it does, but you are no where near as durable/safe at close range.

Got a point, although bombs have better damage and control at melee range. Really don’t know what range the flamethrower is made for, perhaps that sweet spot medium range the devs keep harping about.

Meaningful medium range in GW2 combat is as much a dev fantasy as engineers are versatile is a dev fantasy.

UNfotrunately the FT changes are an equal fantasy, that might work in a few setting like on dummies, but FT changes are nothing compared to how dangerous it is when you get many retaliation and confusion/proc confusion and have to go into close range with a FT.

FT just isn’t viable with the lifesteal food changes anymore.

Retaliation is only dangerous if you use FT1, where if the target has it, you’re going to have a bad time.

what Daigle said; if you see the retaliation boon on your foe, stop attacking or dodge away, react dynamically rather than attempt a brute force zero strategy.

Are you nerds going to keep doing math or are you just going to play the game!?

When directly compared to other damage kits the FT is the weakest.
The utility of FT doesn’t quite make up for its weakness.
BUT
The FT has more range than bombs and doesnt need to be spammed like nades.
You can form many different builds of the trait requirments for FT whereas traiting in explosions sorta forces you to use…well explosives.
I personally have a blast toasting mobs with FT in PvE and I can get the job done just as easily as when I use bombs or nades it just might take a little longer.
Elixir U and Rune of w/e gives you Haste on crit can be really fun with the FT.

If you are trying to Max out yourself than FT isn’t worth the slot.
Course thats the same with 75% of our other skills too.

PLAY.

In order to maintain the medium range that people say FT is good at, you need ways to stay at that medium range.

FT already has Air Blast, which not only pushes opponents back and adds 2 seconds of burn to burning enemies, but also sets you up for Flame Blast.

Rifle is a good complement for the FT not only because you can attack enemies out of range with #1, but you can also net them with Net Shot, knock them back with Overcharged Shot, or close the distance with Jump Shot.

Net Turret adds more FT effectiveness with 2 more net attacks and even a stun attack.

By itself FT is sub par, but when combined with other items it can be a very effective tool.

Vyxion.6358:

nakoda.4213:

the other consideration in the calculations is the AoE dmg; bomb and ft are both AoE weapons, technically.

But since I am not a numbers guy, I put it to you, Seetoo, should the potential DPS of the FT#1+FT#2 be factored by their maximum number of targets (Bomb kit as well)?

I am not sold that more targets reduces sustained DPS though (i do agree it does less per target with more than 5 targets, but the overall sustained dps ought not be changing just because there are more targets). Since tests are meant to be controlled, isn’t FT1 3x whatever it does to a single dummy, and FT2 5x, since they can hit that many targets before losing any single target dps? Likewise, Bombkit/nadekit should have its DPS factored by up to 5 since a single bomb/volley can hit 5 targets for the same amount?

FT1 isnt a 3target hit skill, it hits 5 like normal aoe’s do rather than like a cleave attack.
Something else i really like about FT as well is the fact the FT1 keeps on doing dmg, theres a smaller ammount of “overdamage” so to speak. There’s more effective dmg than when you compare it to the grenades.

Let me explain this:

Lets say you are grinding an event with a mass ammount of mobs (lets say 30 are alive at once) and you throw in grenades. You throw them in waves, not continuesly. When the grenades land they do a set ammount of dmg all at once on a set ammount of targets. If some targets died in the progress all overdmg done to them was lost and you’re not dealing extra dmg to remaining targets till the next wave of nades.

Flamethrower is different. It’s more like a pulsing aoe. The dmg comes in 10 waves per attack (rather than the grenade’s 1 attack 1 wave). lets say some targets die in the middle of the flame jet then the remaining waves of the flamejet simply start hurting other targets, losing less effective dmg on said dead target and doing more effective dmg because it dynamically switches to live targets even during that 1 attack.

Nades don’t do that.
It’s a terrible thing trying to throw maths on but it’s a very important thing to note when comparing the 2.

That was a very informative post. Thanks for this.

SmoothHussler.6387:

Vyxion.6358:

nakoda.4213:

the other consideration in the calculations is the AoE dmg; bomb and ft are both AoE weapons, technically.

But since I am not a numbers guy, I put it to you, Seetoo, should the potential DPS of the FT#1+FT#2 be factored by their maximum number of targets (Bomb kit as well)?

I am not sold that more targets reduces sustained DPS though (i do agree it does less per target with more than 5 targets, but the overall sustained dps ought not be changing just because there are more targets). Since tests are meant to be controlled, isn’t FT1 3x whatever it does to a single dummy, and FT2 5x, since they can hit that many targets before losing any single target dps? Likewise, Bombkit/nadekit should have its DPS factored by up to 5 since a single bomb/volley can hit 5 targets for the same amount?

FT1 isnt a 3target hit skill, it hits 5 like normal aoe’s do rather than like a cleave attack.
Something else i really like about FT as well is the fact the FT1 keeps on doing dmg, theres a smaller ammount of “overdamage” so to speak. There’s more effective dmg than when you compare it to the grenades.

Let me explain this:

Lets say you are grinding an event with a mass ammount of mobs (lets say 30 are alive at once) and you throw in grenades. You throw them in waves, not continuesly. When the grenades land they do a set ammount of dmg all at once on a set ammount of targets. If some targets died in the progress all overdmg done to them was lost and you’re not dealing extra dmg to remaining targets till the next wave of nades.

Flamethrower is different. It’s more like a pulsing aoe. The dmg comes in 10 waves per attack (rather than the grenade’s 1 attack 1 wave). lets say some targets die in the middle of the flame jet then the remaining waves of the flamejet simply start hurting other targets, losing less effective dmg on said dead target and doing more effective dmg because it dynamically switches to live targets even during that 1 attack.

Nades don’t do that.
It’s a terrible thing trying to throw maths on but it’s a very important thing to note when comparing the 2.

That was a very informative post. Thanks for this.

And misinformation man’s sidekick takes his 1st victim.

Nades calc hit or miss when they explode, not when they are thrown. Let’s assume nades can only hit 3. In a cluster of 30, you only hit 3 per explosion (3/30). When 1 dies while a grenade is already in flight, there are only 29 targets before said grenade explodes. When said grenade does explode it takes 3 targets out of 29 left alive in the blast radius. No loss of dps due to a target dying.

Where do these people even get these?

FT is now much less viable in WvW.

for me food change killed FT completly in WvW
im back to my banner warrior

In WvW raid fights I sometimes swap from FT to pistlos in a constant manner.

So I use up the main FT cooldowns, the #2 blast twice, the #5 blind if possible.
Than I swap to pistols and use those cooldowns, often when traited for piercing.

Than back to the FT. Note that I haven’t stayed in either for much longer than 10 seconds. So I get the aoe fire blast from Kit refinement which burns but also removes a condition on me.
I also get the aoe chill proc from my hydromancer Sigil.

I try to keep this fast rotation up, and when needed healing or better defenses, I swap to Elixir Gun for #5 and maybe an escape #4. Or simply block with Tool Kit.
Or Med kit if really hurting, which freeze again with my runes of grenth.

But mostly I try go back and forth with FT and pistols unless I take too much damage.
This is a bit different from what I did before, but the recent nerf to Kit refinement forced me to not mix in too many kits the same seconds.

This is fun and effective, but as true Flamethrower users will have noticed: many weak points in my damage:
- no juggernaut if piercing shots with coated bullets
- no might duration runes
- no might proccing sigil

Not saying my way is the best, for the above reasons alone.
But I can guarantee you it is fun for me
Flamethrower – piercing bullets swapping in group fights is numbers… and more numbers… and chaos… and crowd control…

Piercing shots pistols with FT make for a good CQC combination as both now deal damage multiple enemies anywhere in the range of either weapon’s #1 shot.

I like the use of that trait, Kimbald!

Sporadicus.1028:

Piercing shots pistols with FT make for a good CQC combination as both now deal damage multiple enemies anywhere in the range of either weapon’s #1 shot.

I like the use of that trait, Kimbald!

I could simply use healing bombs for more support, or grenades at close range for more mayhem… but both of those bore me like hell.
Who designed a kit where skills 1 to 5 just have the exact same mechanic???
The effects change, but you do the same thing over and over and over…

So I prefer the weaker flamethrower and have more fun.

Because let’s face it: when judging the flamethrower, the number one argument for most of us is not damage but FUN.
It’s a flamethrower thing, what can I say…

Agreed, FT is fun because you’re spreading damage using fire. FIRE! FIREFIRE!

I love to see enemies being roasted!

FT was great fun to mess around with. Unfortunately the person making the weak changes to FT clearly didn’t understand what the food changes mean, certainly in a WvW setting.

Kalan.9705:

FT was great fun to mess around with. Unfortunately the person making the weak changes to FT clearly didn’t understand what the food changes mean, certainly in a WvW setting.

The food nerf seemed needed, but I agree it hits the FT really hard.

With the changes they should have given FT something as a small heal from a trait or something. To make up a bt for the food nerf.

They simply figured the food was too strong and didn’t give Flamethrower a second thought. In WvW the FT was mostly good because of the food… the 10% damage on burn or the prolonged burning on pushback don’t make up for that loss in survivability.

It seems needed to make up for it somehow, improving FT#5 would be a good place to look.

But let’s be honest: the combo of a fast hitting and critting Flamethrower with omnomberry was too strong in healing. Not even grandmaster traited bombs healed for that ammount…

The ICD on foods were bound to be applied. It sucks, but it was only a matter of time.

SmoothHussler.6387:

Vyxion.6358:

nakoda.4213:

the other consideration in the calculations is the AoE dmg; bomb and ft are both AoE weapons, technically.

But since I am not a numbers guy, I put it to you, Seetoo, should the potential DPS of the FT#1+FT#2 be factored by their maximum number of targets (Bomb kit as well)?

I am not sold that more targets reduces sustained DPS though (i do agree it does less per target with more than 5 targets, but the overall sustained dps ought not be changing just because there are more targets). Since tests are meant to be controlled, isn’t FT1 3x whatever it does to a single dummy, and FT2 5x, since they can hit that many targets before losing any single target dps? Likewise, Bombkit/nadekit should have its DPS factored by up to 5 since a single bomb/volley can hit 5 targets for the same amount?

FT1 isnt a 3target hit skill, it hits 5 like normal aoe’s do rather than like a cleave attack.
Something else i really like about FT as well is the fact the FT1 keeps on doing dmg, theres a smaller ammount of “overdamage” so to speak. There’s more effective dmg than when you compare it to the grenades.

Let me explain this:

Lets say you are grinding an event with a mass ammount of mobs (lets say 30 are alive at once) and you throw in grenades. You throw them in waves, not continuesly. When the grenades land they do a set ammount of dmg all at once on a set ammount of targets. If some targets died in the progress all overdmg done to them was lost and you’re not dealing extra dmg to remaining targets till the next wave of nades.

Flamethrower is different. It’s more like a pulsing aoe. The dmg comes in 10 waves per attack (rather than the grenade’s 1 attack 1 wave). lets say some targets die in the middle of the flame jet then the remaining waves of the flamejet simply start hurting other targets, losing less effective dmg on said dead target and doing more effective dmg because it dynamically switches to live targets even during that 1 attack.

Nades don’t do that.
It’s a terrible thing trying to throw maths on but it’s a very important thing to note when comparing the 2.

That was a very informative post. Thanks for this.

um, FT#1 hits 3 targets, not 5 (I was corrected about this earlier), it hits each of the initial 3 targets for the same amount of damage between pulse 1-9/crit independent (I was corrected about this earlier as well), and when you start adding a 4th, or 5th, ot nth mob, per target DPS begins to drop (I was corrected about this earlier also).

All I was asking was whether that means that the potential dps for FT#1 ought not be calculated based on maximum potential output assuming three mobs or not (as should bombs, since they also hit up to 5 targets).

I wasn’t spreading misinformation, Seetoo, sometimes people discuss things in order to learn.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Why does it need to be used at 1500 range to have a place over the Grenade Kit? The Grenade Kit is great at what it does, but you are no where near as durable/safe at close range.

The “durable/safe” aspect of the FT is completely negated with even half-way decent kiting skills. Even on my war and guard, I’m rarely standing toe-to-toe with mobs even with melee weapons; using PvP reflexes to dance in/out of melee range between attacks lets you solo group pve mobs quite easily even without any ranged weapons slotted at all. Since the targeting on flame jet and flame blast makes you face your target, you can’t really kite as effectively.

The above is why I feel that FT deserves damage more comparable to melee weapons.