Guild Wars 2

@Nakoda
Your first sentance explains your own responce. I was responding to his responce to me, in which he says that air blast will not put them outside of your flame jet damage because flame jet is 425 and the knockback on air blast is 400. In which i point out, unless they are ontop of you, they will be outside the range of the attack. He was saying it wouldnt, i am saying it will.

You also go on to point out you dont play competively, care more about just having a good time vs getting the most effectiveness out of the tools you have. Which is why discussing how effective it is competively with you is not going to get anywhere. Your primary play style is clearly WvW, which is why constantly through out your responce to me you sited WvW.

Not to say fun isnt important, but the arguement isnt about fun, its about effectiveness and balance. Because this game boasts that the tournament SPVP is supposed to be developed into an E sport, where balance is crucial.

Rifle vs flamethrower debate on damage vs a target dummy proves nothing. Its a much more complicated pro-vs-con scenerio. You will more easily apply more damage with rifle and survive longer. And Flame throwers auto attack is worst in several ways, making it an unattractive reason to keep the flame thrower out as it doesnt offer much reason to use it for more than 5 seconds before stowing it away (which may be the hole in my arguement…it may have use in condition builds for using it then stowing it away, but keeping it out for its auto attack is still a bad idea)

Just for a simple comparison, not saying they SHOULD be compared….but lets do it just to help show why i think flame throwers auto is in a place i will not want to use it 99% of the time in spvp.

Rifle auto attack is 3/4 sec cd, 900 range (traited 1200) peirces (goes through to hit multiple targets) with my current gear set up atm around 600ish. (not important just saying)

Flame thrower is a 2 1/4 sec channeled cone attack. 425 range. Applies a condition for 1 second at the END of the channel. currently on my guy hitting 1000ish with a 400ish damage condition.

Now with my gear and situation not a huge difference in damage really, seeing as rifle gets about 3 attacks for every 1 channel of FT. But lets dig a bit deeper.

Flame thrower hits multiple times. Which means retaliation destroys you for using it. Retaliation is a popular boon for many professions in competitive spvp. And thus is a big draw back to flamethrowers auto.

Also flame throwers auto is channeling. Channel is always bad, because during the channel you can be interrupted, they can move out of the way, they can dodge, etc. Which is bad because if that happens before it finishes, you dont get that condition (which generally is a pretty big chunk of the damage).

Truth is it was always a horrible kit and anyone competitive knew it for months, these buffs just bring it up to almost viable for condition spreading builds. (where its toolbelt skill will always be wanted and now has more ways to apply burning)

I have to ask though, did you use Flame thrower often before this patch? If so, did you think it was UP then? Because if you were using it and DIDNT think it was UP, you should be asking for nerfs now because they HEAVILY buffed it.

I think the history of my posts shows that I have been advocating the FT for quite some time now, and yes I got massively buffed because lifesteal food is irrelevant in spvp.

25 range in game is not on top of you, but beside you.

I don’t tpvp with a flamethrower, because the ft is best with larger groups, just as I prefer roaming in wvw. on my warrior I use a banner/warhorn in wvw and a rifle/signet spec in spvp. the game not only allows you to spec differently, it encourages and rewards it.

retaliation us ad to any channeled attack, yes, kinds nice that air blast doesn’t do damage when you knock away the sob with retal, then net shot and move away while the buff ends. or any number of ways of dealing with it.

It seems to me that you expect to barge in with the ft and burn everything tobthe ground in a kind if spray and pray. the ft is far more strategic than that.

Zinwrath.2049:

I cant speak for PVE, i imagine FT is atleast decent option there for something.

SPVP however it doesnt cut it.. It used to be worth grabbing for the toolbelt skill in condition builds. Not really sure i could see myself giving up any essential tools to make room for it on my utility bar.

the #1 skill
misses a lot due to the still present terrain bug (very apparent on new map)
is channeled so it can be interrupted or dodged before applieng the dot (or they just run/teleport out of it)
Your rarely in situations where you could be hitting multiple people (and if you are, there are better AE alternatives such as Grenades)
Damage is weak when considering the damage on rifle (rifle peirces and hits multiples too…. from further away )

the #2 skill
is actually decent now with only one issue. Seems to become obstructed or dissapear randomly after cast. More of a bug than a weakness.

the #3 skill
Makes no sense on a weapon that wants you to be close range (unless your just reflecting projectiles with it) With that said i think its the best ability this weapon has, because you can use it for extra cc and reflect before swapping back to your normal weapon.

the #4 skill
its a combo field, but it is a wall. So you wont benefit yourself using it unless you swap off of FT to something with a combo finisher.
It casts slow.
It has a long cd.
It is probably the worst ability the kit has. For it has the least synergy with the rest of the kit.

the #5. skill
An aoe blind
Good because you have to get close to use this kit.
You can use it while CC’d which is good.
Its incredibly less amazing than almost any 5th skill on any kit or any weapon in the entire game though. Making it lack luster.

Toolbelt skill.
Boring but good for condition specs.

So there you have it, some pros and cons there for ya.

Biggest issue with the flame thrower is its abilitys dont work together.
Quick solutions.
1 skill applies fire at start.
2 skill blast finisher.
3 skill make it reflect attacks longer. Knocks down instead of knockback. (remove fire damage)
4 skill cast faster should be a circle instead of a wall.
5 Should be something else less boring that works with the rest of the kit. (Backdraft was better)

Do all this then balance the numbers.

I’ll start first by saying that I like your solutions, and I think you’re the first to talk about the cool reflect properties of FT skill 3. The interesting thing about FT skill 4 is that it comes out instantly if you put it close to your feet, and i can’t remember it canceling like the supply crate does on dodge. What I’m noticing about a lot of Engineer skills is that they need small tweaks in player behavior to get the most out of them. FT is my favorite kit, though I see the uses of all of the kits. I actually melee range only with the FT4 and FT5 skills and believe it or not, If I have an aggro monster or PvP enemy, I FT2 without detonation and FT3 them into it. Combine that with Rifle 2 and you have some interesting things to do to another player caught unawares. The increased burn duration from FT3 only seems like a buff against bosses and champs in PvE. As always though, I keep surviving by the skin of my teeth even vs groups of people in PvP. lots of elixir R have gotten me out of trouble. I’ve even saved other players from getting finished by running up and FT5’ing and then FT3’ing. also 25% speed in combat increase trait made me a bit of a force in my recent PvP outings, but I’m still new at it.

I say all this because 1) it’s hella fun talking about GW stuff, and 2) I think the flamethrower is worth the slot, though I’ve seen some crazy powerful engineer builds in action in both PvE and PvP. I’ve only done WvW twice so I can’t really speak to that.

Zinwrath.2049:

First, there is no correct or incorrect way to use an ability.

I think this thread as a whole is Exhibit A in proving otherwise. The amount of misinformation of what the Flamethrower is and is not capable of solely comes from the fact that a lot of players are using it and its skills improperly.

I’ve invested a lot of time into getting the FT/EG build just right, and it really bursts my bubble when I see people lambasting the kit because they used it for ten minutes and don’t get a direct translation from their experiences with the Grenade Kit. This kit and builds around it take time and practice to get used to—just like anything else in this game.

As I alluded to before, it’s like Guardians wanting their Mace to replace the Greatsword.

Zinwrath.2049:

Second, what your saying would imply the only time you should use Air blast is when they are INSIDE of you.

Third, advantages to this ability include.
Fighting mellee champ but they are pwning me and i need to buy a second for another CD to come up or energy to dodge roll.
I am near a cliff and want to knock someone off it.
A ranged champ used some unload dps ability on me and i want to knock it back in their face. (no they will not be inside of you)
And also, someone is rezzing or about to stomp my friend. I can knock them off of them.

I don’t recall ever saying that Air Blast should be used for any one specific way. If I said that I apologize, but I was responding to your remark that Air Blast will always send a target outside of range of Flame Jet—not that it is what it is to be purely used for.

Zinwrath.2049:

But if your goal is to flat out do as much damage as possible, and your fighting someone who doesnt want to fight you at mellee range, using air blast is helping them and knocking them out of the range of your primary damage.

Bolded for emphasis, because I think this is precisely where the disconnect between Flamethrower Engineers and the rest of the Engineers exists. The Flamethrower is not a kit designed to “flat out do as much damage as possible.” That’s what the Grenade Kit is supposed to do. That’s what an Explosives-specialized Bomb Kit is supposed to do.

That isn’t what the Flamethrower is supposed to do. It’s great at dishing out damage, but it isn’t meant to outperform the Grenade Kit in that regard. If “flat out do(ing) as much damage as possible” is what you want, then you will never be happy with the FT/EG build. Ever.

Phineas Poe.3018:

I think this thread as a whole is Exhibit A in proving otherwise. The amount of misinformation of what the Flamethrower is and is not capable of solely comes from the fact that a lot of players are using it and its skills improperly.

I’ve invested a lot of time into getting the FT/EG build just right, and it really bursts my bubble when I see people lambasting the kit because they used it for ten minutes and don’t get a direct translation from their experiences with the Grenade Kit. This kit and builds around it take time and practice to get used to—just like anything else in this game.

As I alluded to before, it’s like Guardians wanting their Mace to replace the Greatsword.

Bolded for emphasis, because I think this is precisely where the disconnect between Flamethrower Engineers and the rest of the Engineers exists. The Flamethrower is not a kit designed to “flat out do as much damage as possible.” That’s what the Grenade Kit is supposed to do. That’s what an Explosives-specialized Bomb Kit is supposed to do.

That isn’t what the Flamethrower is supposed to do. It’s great at dishing out damage, but it isn’t meant to outperform the Grenade Kit in that regard. If “flat out do(ing) as much damage as possible” is what you want, then you will never be happy with the FT/EG build. Ever.

I could see the issue you would have. But the greatsword and mace have obvious strengths. Greatsword dishes out a lot of AE damage and gap closers. Hammer is simply the weapon of choice for tankier/cc styled approach to doing damage.

Now lets talk the flamethrower vs grenades for just a sec.
Flamethrower is ACTUALLY built more around raw damage than it is anything else.
It is close range ae damage dealer.
1st attack is ae damage
2nd attack is ae damage
3rd…is CC, mixed with a way to deal with ranged attackers. (doest just block, it reflects to help you do more damage to them)
4th is s close AE damage (that makes a combo wall…that helps others do more damge, or simjply does damage to people who walk through it)
the 5th ability is a bandaid ability given to it to replace its old ability, and the reason given (when people complained) was to help the flamethrower user not be so squishy, but it is PBA which means you have to be mellee range to use it…so its to help you survive against warriors/theifs or anyone else who wants to mellee you.

It does nothing else but damage, and a couple cc abilitys mostly designed around keeping you alive while you do damage. It has no other role than to give you a close range AE damage tool that offers a TINY bit more protection (particularly if you trait ALL the way into arms for that extra 200 armor…and extra damage).

Grenade, does more AE damage but has a MUCH larger range and offers more utility.
It offers the same blind at a huge range.
It offers another ae application of chill (cc).
and poison (reduce healing) that is a combo field…a much LARGER combo field. (can be used to blast finisher weaken for more cc)

So, we got one kit that is doing what the first one does, only with a lot more oppurtunities. Grenade also can apply more forms of conditions.

So what does flame thrower really excell at? Bomb is clear, its a point holding ability that offers great CC off its 4th and 5th ability. Its obviously meant to be a little bit for a tankier build because you must be ontop of people, it can be traited to heal, and offers confusion (something that only hurts others if they attack you). Its clear in its role. It does a lot more than simply AE damage.

Just like greatsword for gaurdian and hammer are clear in their roles. Flamethrower is clear in its role, its to do large amounts of AE damage at the risk of putting yourself in mellee range combat. It doesnt do it very well though. Its a great condition spreader (burning is one of the best conditions for damage ). But it has no other strength, if you took the CC off of air blast (which now increases your fire damage) it would litereally do nothing (yea, i know the 5th ability is a a crappy ae blind, but its just there to help you survive while your in mellee range doing damage, dev post months ago (maybe beta?) from i beleive john said this)

So, you wonder why people get frusterated when its not doing a lot of damage. And you WONDER why the last 3 changes to this kit….all increased its Damage. Its obvious what they designed it to do. IF you found some weird build that uses FT/EG together for whatever purpose, more power to ya. But FT was still designed to do a lot of AE damage, and imo it isnt quite there yet.

a-buh?

“greatsword vs hammer is dps vs tanky cc; but grenade vs ft is dmg vs dmg”

do you even read the same words as everyone else?

I think this thread has gone pretty far to distinguish the nades as a burst dps and the ft as a tanks weapon with lots of cc options.

we’ve shown how its single target dps is approximately that of the rifle, we’ve also shown how the ft does more dmg against large groups AND explained numerous ways to utilize the ft with other kits (like eg) and gadgets and elixirs; just like every class, engies come with many options, and I think that gs vs hammer is a very apt analogy for nades vs ft.

Zinwrath.2049:

(particularly if you trait ALL the way into arms for that extra 200 armor…and extra damage).

Oh my goodness! ALL THE WAY into Firearms! What a pain! Why even bother! Better yet, why even bother with Elixir-Infused Bombs? Or HGH? Or Grenadier? Let’s just judge all builds by their effectiveness with zero traits spent, because that’s clearly how this game is designed to be played.

Also, I think you are SERIOUSLY NEGLECTING how powerful a 400-range knockback on a 12-second cooldown actually is. Not even a Hammerdin’s Banish is that fast—clocked at 20 seconds with Two-Handed Mastery, which requires giving up some pretty powerful traits like Writ of Merciful/Persistence and Empowering Might (which imo are much better traits).

Fireforged Trigger on the other hand is a very safe choice, considering the Flamethrower does not require Napalm Specialist to apply sustained Burning on a target.

I also think you are severely underrating how great of a skill Smoke Vent is. It’s a PBAoE Blind that has saved my Engineer from being downed A LOT of times and it can be activated while being stunned. The number of killing blows it has saved me from cannot be counted on any number of hands of those reading this post at the moment. So whatever skill it replaced all that long while ago is irrelevant to me. I use it and use it often.

This is all compounded by the fact that most if not all Flamethrower Engineers are going to spec for Infused Precision and Invigorating Speed, giving them 100% Vigor and Swiftness during combat. That means their Endurance replenishes 10% a second—or fully in 10 seconds.

It’s simple math. I’m basically neutralizing one melee attack every four seconds.

Zinwrath.2049:

Grenade, does more AE damage but has a MUCH larger range and offers more utility.
It offers the same blind at a huge range.
It offers another ae application of chill (cc).
and poison (reduce healing) that is a combo field…a much LARGER combo field. (can be used to blast finisher weaken for more cc)

So, we got one kit that is doing what the first one does, only with a lot more oppurtunities. Grenade also can apply more forms of conditions.

This might as well be my ‘Exhibit B’ filed under ‘Apples and Oranges.’

Just because Flash Grenade blinds at 10 seconds doesn’t for a second change the fact that the Flamethrower with Smoke Vent is a more durable kit.

People who gear with the Flamethrower gear differently than those with the Grenade Kit. Who is going to wear PVT armor with the Grenade Kit? Nobody. Because your Conditions are going to slap enemies like wet fish. You’re just not getting the most out of the kit without it. Yet a Flamethrower Engineer can wear Soldiers and dish out perfectly acceptable damage per second. With Emerald jewelry my Engineer clears over 40% critical hit chance with over 2,500 armor at no sacrifice of his damage output. I 100% sustain Fury, putting it over 60%.

I dish out over 2.5K damage per second with Toughness as a primary attribute in my armor and jewelry.

Does it out perform the Grenade Kit? Of course not.

But I don’t recall ever saying that the Flamethrower was better than the Grenade Kit at laying down Combo fields, so I’m not sure why you said all of this. But the Flamethrower is a much better kit to build around durability and the skills support that playstyle. There’s a reason why the Grenade Kit gets 1,200 range. Because you need it and I don’t.

Zinwrath.2049:

IF you found some weird build that uses FT/EG together for whatever purpose, more power to ya. But FT was still designed to do a lot of AE damage, and imo it isnt quite there yet.

That “weird” build has been the counterpart of the most viewed thread in GW2Guru’s Engineer sub-folder by tens of thousands of views and has been disseminated down the grape vine since October. I’m not saying this to brag or take full credit for its popularity in the slightest, but the FT/EG build has been a part of the meta for a very long time and is most certainly not “weird.”

But please, tell me what the Flamethrower was “designed to do.” Clearly I’m just a neophyte here.

Phineas Poe.3018:

SilverWF.4789:

Phineas Poe.3018:

SilverWF.4789:

Anyway, for me FT si still not woth the utility slot untill it will not buffed to the Guardian staff.

Discuss.

The Guardian Staff is a healing support weapon.

I’m laughting hard, thank you.

Why? That’s what it is. Sure it has Line of Warding, but it is for the most part a support weapon. Unless you’re trying to say something about its #1 skill’s wide arc.

Most Guardians use it purely for Empower and slap an Energy sigil on it for free Endurance. Beyond that, there’s not much point sticking to it unless you’re doing things like kiting in AC path 2.

How many times I need to repeat to you obvious (for experienced WvWer, sure) things? Guard staff#1 have more range (600 vs 425), more target limit (5 vs 3),the same DPS (per each target), less attacks per second (1-2 vs 5: forget about retaliation nightmare) and no misses on moving enemies.
Guardian by himself have incredible group supporting traits and utility (for WvW). Even if remeber about FT#2 – Guardian’s staff far better than Engineer’s FT.

I love Engineer and Flamethrower but untill it will not buffed for WvW – FT still not worth, trust me.

ikiturso.4026:

In WvW FT1 great decent damage to mass of ppl. should have more burning becuase of misses. Fixed FT2 thank you gods of tyria! I nuke 2-5k aoe blasts siding with statistic discharge. FT3 good knockback learn to use it. FT4 needs complete fix. FT5 needs boost. AOE blind is cool but really meeh skill 5. FT1 is not supposed to do rifles auto. for example fightin in group over sup camp i strafe alot spamming FT1 + 2 aoe damage and when get too close 3. Very good support for team and deffinately worth the slot.

Captain I_never_read_stuff_above blasting the thread ^^

@Phineas

I already did say what it was designed to do.
Its a mellee range weapon for doing large amounts of damage at risk of putting yourself in close range combat.

toolbelt skill (adds damage)…anyway, i said this all last post… the kit is all designed around doing large amounts of damage.

I beleive your responce shows i got through to you, but to respond to a few things you said….

I dont under value the air blast, which is why earlier in my original post i talk about the several uses of it..saying its the best ability in this kit. But its an ability i would bring out my flame thrower to use, only to return my flame thrower immidiatly and use either A) another kit or my weapon of choice at the time.

The blind …i would never equip this kit for. The bomb kit does a larger PULSING ae blind thats also a combo field. The bomb kit has lots of utility further enhanced through traits. And grenade kit well…in spvp its still highly valued by some of the more competitive spvp engineers (while many teams dont bother with even using an engineer)
The fact it can be used while cc’d only helps me if i already have the flame thrower out, meaning its a way to help you survive while running around spraying stuff with the flame thrower

Also the fact they give so many traits to invest in this kit alongside one that rewards you with more damage for keeping it out longer, just goes to show you they dont expect you to use it like the Toolkit and just bring it out for its utility then tuck it away, its supposed to be equal to an alternate weapon option (much like the elixer gun and grenades are more designed)

To your talk about gear.
Gear doesnt lock me to a playstyle, i can swap out my amulet between matches no investment like PvE/WvW. As for play style, the grenades are actually more used for a close range ae attacks in spvp (what flamethrower is supposed to be good at) because your unlikely to miss someting right infront of you. Its toolbelt skill allows you to do massive damage in a short amount of time to someone.

also

You
“This is all compounded by the fact that most if not all Flamethrower Engineers are going to spec for Infused Precision and Invigorating Speed, giving them 100% Vigor and Swiftness during combat. That means their Endurance replenishes 10% a second—or fully in 10 seconds.”

This can be done with any kit. Saying “most will want to do this” doesnt mean it cant be done with other kits, both of those traits are 10 each leaving 40 others. This is stretching out deep and doesnt support any point nor does it counter any arguement i’ve made….just like your arguement about gear. I can totally gear tanky with Grenades as i pointed out for the same effect. Theorycrafting what most people will do doesnt support whether something is balanced or not. Once they start letting us see our rank, top engineers will be streaming and showing off their builds (like the self-proclaimed pros already do) and it will become very clear what works and what doesnt.

Anyway, i stand on the fact that Flamethrower is a close range ae damage kit. That is its purpose, thats what it does well. It is not worth traiting around as it sits imo unless you plan on keeping it out often and i dont beleive its worth keeping out often for the NUMEROUS reasons i’ve listed. It doesnt perform as well at doing ae damage. My opinions are based entirely from an SPVP perspective

Guys, seriously, stop this walloftexting, please.

Zinwrath.2049:

My opinions are based entirely from an SPVP perspective.

Which I think in a nutshell is why continuing this conversation is a waste of time. I’m coming from a PvE perspective. You’re coming from an sPvP perspective. Our lovely friend above is coming from a WvW perspective.

We’re all talking about different areas of the game.

Zinwrath.2049:

Saying “most will want to do this” doesnt mean it cant be done with other kits, both of those traits are 10 each leaving 40 others. This is stretching out deep and doesnt support any point nor does it counter any arguement i’ve made….just like your arguement about gear.

I never said it can’t be done with other kits. Any Engineer can put 10 points in Alchemy and 10 points in Firearms for Infused Precision and Invigorating Speed.

Any Engineer can also put 30 points in Inventions and use the Grenade Kit. Just because you can do something doesn’t mean you should.

FT/EG Engineers are already putting points in Firearms and Alchemy for Juggernaut and Deadly Mixture, so it’s easiest for us to insert it into our build without sacrificing much.

Zinwrath.2049:

I can totally gear tanky with Grenades as i pointed out for the same effect. Theorycrafting what most people will do doesnt support whether something is balanced or not.

GDI. This isn’t theorycrafting.

You could wear PVT gear with the Grenade Kit, but unless you actually put 30 points in Firearms your DPS is going to be crap because you’ll have a terrible crit percentage and minimal Condition Damage.

You’re the one theorycrafting here, not me. My perspective is based on observations grounded in using the FT/EG for five months.

People throw around “theorycrafting” without understanding what it actually means. It’s so disrespectful.

I totally agree with OP, especially damage wise. Even if it’s AoE, the damage is too low to be worth it in the long run. I hope they fix it soon!

well, Zinwrath, I disagree because all I do with the FT is sPvP and I consistently enjoy a top score position on winning teams. It is not uncommon to fend of a zerg attack on a point while my krewe hustles over or, conversely, to disrupt a defending krewe.

I make a point of sticking with my krewe, however, and support them by keeping foes off and by being a meatshield.

the killer thing with FT is its crit rate and synergy with might stacking, so you can go full rabid if you really want to beef up and be a bunker and still rock 18-25 might stacks.

Honestly, I seriously doubt you’ve spent more than an hour trying the FT and giving it serious consideration (just like I’ve never used. PPHgH build, so I suck at it). My point is that your preference of something other than the FT does not make the kit broken and useless, it means you are better off using something else.

if yyou can’t handle the heat, get out of the kitchen.

Flamethrower works and is quite effective, you guys just want to see big numbers all the time.

@phineas
I agree that PvE concerns and WvW concerns of the other guy are not gonna line up with SPVP, but SPVP is the most influencial on balance as its where it strikes the hardest chord. In a game mode that wants to consider itself a future E-Sport where balance is absolute and crucial it MUST be solid. In WvW i’m often one of 1000 that is always imbalanced due to differences in gear, blueprints, raw numbers, and levels (low levels with less abilitys/traits can join it), and in pve unless your an anal number min/maxing type that needs the best possible group before you’ll do anything, one thing being slighter better than the other isnt as important because as long as the content gets completed and everyone had a good time, no big deal. But in spvp, if one guy has an advantage over the next, suddenly the entire fabric of a fair game is thrown out the window and it cant be considered a very good Sport on any level.

But beside the point. You misunderstood what i was talking about regarding theorycrafting i suppose. like assuming people would be more likely to do A over B. That doesnt make one thing better than the next, thats just making assumptions. I was playing Ezreal in LoL for over a year often being told he was weak and needed buffs, a year later after i had been playing him they nerfed him and twice heavily. I knew he was good..it was a matter of time. Like wise, i havent been using flame thrower much for these past 5 months (or really a whole lot since beta only breaking it out occasionally in PVE) because i knew it was a handicap to use it, and thus its been buffed heavily…as i knew it would be (and this is not the first time they buffed it, its been buffed/fixed a few times now). But its not game breaking now that they buffed it or elixer gun which also clearly needed buffs. The fact you’ve been using them all this time and thought they were good, would suggest you think the current FT/EG is grossly OP and deserves to have these buffs removed, no? I mean they were some pretty big buffs.

But, yes due to my spvp focus i’m going to find concern how it handles fights consisting rarely of more than 2on2 or 3on3 because 5v5 is tournament size and rarely is everyone in the same spot. I said at the beginning of my first post, flamethrower might be good in PVE, hell i’m sure elixer gun is GREAT in pve, but both have had a struggle in finding meaningful existance in the competitive world of spvp.

If i were you, i would welcome any suggestions i might have or any future buffs the devs make to make the FT better. Because cmone…you obviously enjoy using the kit now, why would you have issue with it being more effective?

Anyway, sorry if i offended you earlier. I have an abrasive writing style particularly when in a debate or explaining something that i’m passionate about. i have actually been using a GREAT deal of my free time over the past few days only using flamethrower builds in spvp (and have often played with it in the past, despite “pros” claiming it was bad), min maxing runes/sigils/traits/abilitys to find a way to prove myself wrong. But so far, the best use i’ve made with it is a condition stacking build focusing more on tankiness and it still has all the weaknesses i’ve reported earlier, and i still find myself with my pistol out most the time wishing i had one of the other alternatives that perform better in that slot. Like the various reasons i listed, its primary gimick over other alternatives is it has a lot of damage options, but despite the massive dps buff, it still falls short of its designed purpose. (which i can only see is for a close range damage option, for the reasons i listed above).

also, PTV gear on grenade kit would be the same as it would be on the FT. You would be a tanky grenade thrower and not do as much damage for it. Same as FT. And majority of damage done with nades is from the power benefit your 1 spam combined with toolbelt, skills 3-4-5 are mostly cc nades and what makes nade spamming so powerful is the heavy stacking of vulnerability.

Zinwrath.2049:

The fact you’ve been using them all this time and thought they were good, would suggest you think the current FT/EG is grossly OP and deserves to have these buffs removed, no? I mean they were some pretty big buffs.

….No?

Zinwrath.2049:

If i were you, i would welcome any suggestions i might have or any future buffs the devs make to make the FT better. Because cmone…you obviously enjoy using the kit now, why would you have issue with it being more effective?

I don’t.

I’m all ears for ways to improve the kit. I think there’s definitely room for improvement; my problem is with people asserting that it’s a waste of a slot. I have not at any moment in this thread said that the Flamethrower is perfect or above reproach.

zinwrath;

I use rifle/medkit/ft/goggles(rocket boots)/net turret/supply crate
I use the rampager’s amulet, or rabid or berserker’s depending on runes.
I (currently) use a full 6pc forge rune set, but I also use either water/monk/lyssa or strength/rage/hoelbrak; im at work and typing on a phone sucks, so when I get home ill clarify the differences.

I get the aggressive writing thing, I picked up on it (because i do it too) and bit my tongue after posting “a-buh?”.

my full build is near the end of the post your build thread, like yours it is always being tinkered with (I’ve always chalked that up to the flavor of an engineer), but the ft can be a devastating tool.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Zinwrath.2049:

The fact you’ve been using them all this time and thought they were good, would suggest you think the current FT/EG is grossly OP and deserves to have these buffs removed, no? I mean they were some pretty big buffs.

….No?

Zinwrath.2049:

If i were you, i would welcome any suggestions i might have or any future buffs the devs make to make the FT better. Because cmone…you obviously enjoy using the kit now, why would you have issue with it being more effective?

I don’t.

I’m all ears for ways to improve the kit. I think there’s definitely room for improvement; my problem is with people asserting that it’s a waste of a slot. I have not at any moment in this thread said that the Flamethrower is perfect or above reproach.

Well then we see eye to eye after all.

But when speaking to the competitive community, anything that is not working as well as it should or something else is..is considered a handicap and thus not worth using because you will perform less than you would with something else, and thus lose the match for making a poor decision before the match even started.

So do you have any thoughts at all on how you would improve it?
Do you find any of my ideas decent?

I did suggest adding more utility to the kit by making Flame Blast a blast finisher (title kinda implys it should be anyway, and then it would have synergy with napalm)
Also i think smoke vent could afford to be a breif combo field much like the healing turrets toolbelt skill is.
Increasing the cast speed of Napalm (would prefer it was a circle)
Preferably i’d prefer Air Blast was a knock down instead of knockback with a shorter knockback distance and a very breif knockdown…but hard to say if that would make it OP.

Anyway, i’d also increase the damage again on flame jet or atleast give it a higher damage out put at 100 range vs 425 much like blunderbuss. meaning that it could stay balanced as a splash damage short range attack. But would be more on par with other point blank damage sources at mellee range making it fit more comfortably into spvp and 1on1 scenerios.

Thoughts?

what about a 1 sec cripple within 100 range? (ie, the panic of being coated in liquid sin forgiveness)

nakoda.4213:

what about a 1 sec cripple within 100 range? (ie, the panic of being coated in liquid sin forgiveness)

I have always thought FT needed something like this.
Not so much more dmg but more intimidation, we need something that says “Don’t Stand in my Fire.”
I think applying a 1sec cripple each tick would be perfect, given the shorter range of FT and skills revolving around close to melee range we should be able to lock down enemies with the FT.
FT was originally supposed to be a chase down weapon but they ruined it, this would give it some of its old flavor back.

nakoda.4213:

what about a 1 sec cripple within 100 range? (ie, the panic of being coated in liquid sin forgiveness)

you are a very odd fellow.

I dont think its a terrible idea. I’m just not sure “sticking” to someone in close combat is always an issue for the engineer. The general feeling, is the flame thrower simply isnt doing as much damage as most other weapons a lot of professions will be hitting you with at close range. So being more on par with them would be ideal.

I would more welcome a “weaken” added effect at close range, as that would open the kit to be more of a "tank’ option. Rogue gets in face, blind him burn him..watch fumble. Find a witty way to explain why its weakening someone in your face, and i’ll back it.

Either way still thinking higher damage for being in someones face to atleast help it come more even with what other players can do at that range in terms of auto attack damage. I’m not asking to match others or anything crazy, just a little bit more on par at that range.

CriSPeH.8512:

nakoda.4213:

what about a 1 sec cripple within 100 range? (ie, the panic of being coated in liquid sin forgiveness)

I have always thought FT needed something like this.
Not so much more dmg but more intimidation, we need something that says “Don’t Stand in my Fire.”
I think applying a 1sec cripple each tick would be perfect, given the shorter range of FT and skills revolving around close to melee range we should be able to lock down enemies with the FT.
FT was originally supposed to be a chase down weapon but they ruined it, this would give it some of its old flavor back.

The only reason i’m opposing the cripple (other than we have lots of access to cripple through traits etc in the fire arms and explosive tree alone) is while it can be hard to chase down people with the flame thrower who dont wanna be next to you….its even harder to deal with people who DO want to be next to you.

Your gonna flat out lose to theif/warrior/mesmer/gaurdian..(maybe even dagger necro or sword hunter?) at close range combat due to significantly less damage, your channeling, they’re not (and if they are they ahve stability) and your only real utility without leaving the kit entirely is to push them away from you. You can always whip out the rifle and net someone if you need to catch up. (if you dont have rifle….well i dunno..speedy kits?)

So while i dont beleive you should out damage ANY of them at close range combat (lets face it that burn condition is pretty nice free damage and its still an attack that can hit a decent size cone) This doesnt help you vs majority of encounters in spvp where one of these guys is gonna wanna keep YOU from running…a slight up in damage or a more harmful condition to help even the footing will make them think twice about engaging you and actually WANT to run from you.

Edit: but i do agree on intimidation ENTIRELY. If i’m someone fighting an engineer and i see them pull out flame thrower, i should be thinking…“ok i dont want to be next to this guy…he is tankier and hits hard at close range” not “he must wanna push me?….who knows (turns on stability), gonna bash his head in nao” which is what i think in the situations i fight people using FT when i’m playing my other professions in spvp.

weakness is a good call (confusion would be like cake), I just picked cripple because I always have a vision of hollywood fire shots with arms flailing, wacky and waving.

also, crippling foes as they charge you allows you to maintain a controlled backwards step and strafe.

knock backs and roots are how we defend from melee. I used to use shield for blowback but I like having access to a plethora of nets.

nakoda.4213:

weakness is a good call (confusion would be like cake), I just picked cripple because I always have a vision of hollywood fire shots with arms flailing, wacky and waving.

also, crippling foes as they charge you allows you to maintain a controlled backwards step and strafe.

knock backs and roots are how we defend from melee. I used to use shield for blowback but I like having access to a plethora of nets.

All good reasoning. Cant really argue it. Crippling someone then pushing them away (or through your napalm wall) and safely burning them while kiting would be a good strategy. I’m thinking people would have funner being more of a bruiser scaring people with that close up damage (and/or weakness) though, if you can find a roleplaying way to experience how flames are weakning someone that is.

(also lets save your cripple idea for when they finally give us the icethrower that the boss in CM has….its too cool to not let us have it)

This is just an idea i’m throwing out there, could be bad or good.
Assuming they did change flame jet to do more damage, maybe even weaken at close range what if they changed juggernaut.

new juggernaut – 300(or 400) toughness movement speed in combat increased 25%.

This would free up the trait and allow the FT user to decide if they wanna trait for that extra 20% burn duration or some other damage dealing/utility trait, or if they want more tankiness and chasing power.

Since raw damage would be added to the flame thrower, we wouldnt really need the might stacking either.

Honestly this change to flame jet and juggernaut trait would make FT EXTREMELY more attractive and fun. imo anyway. Oh and give Flame blast the blast finisher….i cant get over that it has a name like flame blast…explodes…and ISNT a blast finisher!?

way op with 25% move speed, plus the might stacks are essential since POW is you maim dmg scaling stat. pre is for proccing crit effects (incendiary ammo, strength sigil, /lamentationforomnomberries, etc)

I think that to boost dmg, hugh should give 10 might stacks, and deadly mixture should add a bleed (ie, the mixture prevents the fire from cauterizing the wounds)

nakoda.4213:

what about a 1 sec cripple within 100 range? (ie, the panic of being coated in liquid sin forgiveness)

Having the flamethrower cripple would effectively solve the mobility problems I’ve been having with it. If I can’t move at max speed while attacking, no one can.

Also, it would make a really good combination with bomb kit.

nakoda.4213:

way op with 25% move speed, plus the might stacks are essential since POW is you maim dmg scaling stat. pre is for proccing crit effects (incendiary ammo, strength sigil, /lamentationforomnomberries, etc)

I think that to boost dmg, hugh should give 10 might stacks, and deadly mixture should add a bleed (ie, the mixture prevents the fire from cauterizing the wounds)

We have a 25% move speed in combat trait 20 points into inventions and its useable no matter what your holding. So i dunno if it’d really be OP seeing this is a 30 point trait and it only works with one kit. (thats why i buffed the toughness on the trait)

Also Might increases Condition damage and Power. http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Might
Not precision. Fury is the crit boon. So it doesnt help in that regard. Removing it would only cut the flat damage to flame thrower which is why i said i would do this only after buffing flame throwers raw damage numbers to compensate.

Also, arms 5 point trait gives us a bleed for critting.

ya, but Power Shoes does not fit into the ft meta. but now I want it to… sigh.

re: might vs fury; I know, my point was that even though the ft is in the PRE tree, its main dmg is from POW because, as you point out, pow scales both our dd and cond, so to remove the might from jugg would cripple us.

nakoda.4213:

ya, but Power Shoes does not fit into the ft meta. but now I want it to… sigh.

re: might vs fury; I know, my point was that even though the ft is in the PRE tree, its main dmg is from POW because, as you point out, pow scales both our dd and cond, so to remove the might from jugg would cripple us.

Which is why i would just flat adjust the numbers so FT would hit like it does with 6 stacks of might all the time. then you wouldnt miss it!. But yea, i think i see your point now.

I do think condition damage and power > crit/crit damage for FT though, its multi-attack already give it a higher chance to land a crit and most crit procs have cooldowns attached to them anyway. But i agree the 18ish % you get from firearms is definitly important and flame blast crits are always nice.

I run with 63% crit before fury, and 100% fury up-time when im not playing like a tool.

also, since “boons” appear to be anet’s engie mantra, it’ll be a long shot to get them to buff dmg and negate might stacking.

How do you feel now that incendiary ammo is up to 100% burning?

Holy necro’d thread Batman!

Incendiary’s 100% proc is nice but it was easy to keep burns rolling with FT alone even beforehand. Between the long duration fire field and even minimal +boon duration with autoattack, burns were ever-present.

The biggest boon to FT is Juggernaut’s move from Grandmaster to Master trait. It basically gives you a free 10 trait points to put elsewhere. Survivability, utility, movement, you decide. You can try hybrids. Can might stack even easier with 30 in Alch for HGH if you want, or supplement a rifle/SD build with FT for variety (something I’ve been messsing with lately).

Seras.5702:

Holy necro’d thread Batman!

Incendiary’s 100% proc is nice but it was easy to keep burns rolling with FT alone even beforehand. Between the long duration fire field and even minimal +boon duration with autoattack, burns were ever-present.

The biggest boon to FT is Juggernaut’s move from Grandmaster to Master trait. It basically gives you a free 10 trait points to put elsewhere. Survivability, utility, movement, you decide. You can try hybrids. Can might stack even easier with 30 in Alch for HGH if you want, or supplement a rifle/SD build with FT for variety (something I’ve been messsing with lately).

I still wouldn’t use skill anything but the toolbelt ability in flamethrower for damage even if you paid me. Okay maybe if you paid me.

Ya, it did continue to get buffs through traits by getting two if its traits put in lower tiers and other traits that effect it/burning buffed.

But from what little competition I see and few games I’ve played out of curiosity, I don’t see anyone spvp running it still…

Oh wellz. kinda stopped caring about all this stuff, but ironic I get on and see this old thread lol.

Flamethrower should torment as well.

Lots of discussion going on, and not going to reply to the latest individual posts.
I did read most of the last 2 pages, so the recent posts, and came up with these 2 small suggestions:

1. Instead of the whole cripple idea, make it chill!
If a strong melee hits you, he will be slowed and doing less chained burst on you.
Fire and ice…

2. Let Juggernaut effect Elixir Gun as well.
I realise far from all FT users equip the EG as well. But a lot do, and the trait synergy is very clear.
This would achieve 2 things: EG itself would be given a much needed buff, and the synergy with FT would be perfect!
Mind you: it would not increase FT damage at all, which of course is the bulk of this discussion.
In melee range it would allow you to switching to a weakening, poisoning, crippling weapon without losing the toughness and might stacks.

Neither of my suggestions even touch upon damage for FT at all.
But they do make it even more versatile. And in that sense, it would become a stronger weapon.

Important last note:
personally I feel all kits slack behind the damage of bombs and grenades, which also happen to be our simplest melee and ranged weapons to use (and most boring at that…)
There is an issue there, which goes beyond FT alone.

This thread is still totally accurate, even after 6 months. Flamethrower needs to deal more damage. It only does about 2.5k damage for a 2 1/4 second channel, which is not a lot for a close range weapon.

hutch.1048:

How do you feel now that incendiary ammo is up to 100% burning?

I don’t even use Incendiary Powder in my build anymore. Rocket Kick has pretty much replaced it, now that I run 25 points into Tools reducing it to a 16 second cooldown (+25% Toolbelt Recharge Rate). 5 seconds of burning every 16 seconds isn’t as good as 4 seconds every 10, but it’s good enough to sustain burning along with Flame Jet and Incendiary Ammo, not to mention everything else Rocket Boots gives you as a third utility (as either an escape tool or a Blast finisher).

VIVorcha.7853:

It only does about 2.5k damage for a 2 1/4 second channel, which is not a lot for a close range weapon.

With what build? Gear setup?

Flame Jet doesn’t do remarkable damage, but it should be doing more than that.

As a Flamethrower Engi of some 400 hours experience,

The Flamethrower might not seem useable at first (it didn’t to me, being basically the guardian staff if it were nerfed roughly 50% across the board) but it can be an OK kit when compared with our others. Despite, again, oddly doing less than half the damage and hitting 3/5 the people at 2/3 the range of the guardians staff auto, the most comparable autoattack
Here’s why:

• You are more likely to hit your target than with Bombs/Nades which are easily walked away from/slow to cast and travel respectively.
• You proc on-crit effects more often (5 hits per second)
• Knockback is extremely handy for saving downed allies or simply controlling your opponent.
• The instant cast pbAoE blind is great for preventing CC while casting your finisher. (Plus a lot of people don’t realise what happened and drinking those sweet, sweet rage tears gets the testosterone flowing…)

The current big issues with FT are also issues other weapons/skills suffer from in this game:

• Cone attacks are affected by targeting, thus if a target moves too close or too far to the side the cone will fire into the floor and result in the renowned “miss, miss, miss” rubbish.

The above is a huge issue for all cone attacks not just related to the FT and should really be looked at. I personally have been intermittently posting on the suggestion forums and through in-game bug reports for some months in regards to this issue.

• The flame jet animation fires to about 600 range , while the skill itself is only effective to 400 range. This is just such a glaring and simple bug that should have been fixed before launch or at least during the post launch bug squashing. Simply fixing the effective range to 600 would bring the skills range on par with other similar skills, whilst still hitting less targets and doing less damage.

The above bug also effects other similar jet attacks in the game i.e. elixir guns fumigate and the pick-up Flamethrowers

• Any elevation can cause Flame Jet to “miss, miss, miss…”

Again, an issue for all cone AoE skills

I feel like a lot of the issues regarding specific skills on the FT will be resolved when ANet starts rolling out the earnable skills for progression, giving players the choice over what to use with the FT if abilites like skill 4 or 5 feel out of place for them.

As an interesting aside, skill 4 “Napalm” can be combo-ed with rifle 5 for a 5 second flame shield which deals burning and stacks might, but the fire field on Napalm is tiny making it frustrating at times. Napalm is definitely a skill I would personally swap out for another in a heartbeat.

wolfshirt.8459:

its fun to use.

but yeah, you’re right: still not worth a slot.

This still sums up my feelings about FT.

Direct damage from FT is abyssmal no matter what you do (i,e. even withz 25 stacks of might and serker gear) – Anet should bring back the double explosion on max range for the FT (2) skill. That was a nice skill shot – easy to see /avoid but rewarding when it hit.

its not worth picking up for condi dmg

and as support its just a huge fail on its own

+ using the auto means kitten yourself with 1.5K retaliation on every shot gg…

all FT traits become trash just like that as well when the kit is uber crap to begin with

Flamethrower isn’t worth using FT1 for, but 2, 3, 4 and 5 are pretty nice. The Toolbelt ability has too long a cooldown, but hey. At least it works.

Thankfully, fixing FT1 is easy:

• Make it non-tracking like Drakes Breath or Cone of Cold to fix the targeting issues caused by the FT1 “skillshot” trying to track a target and missing due to insufficient lead.

• Halve the number of hits, but double the damage inflicted with each pulse. This will reduce the efficacy of FT1 proccing on-crit effects, but let’s face it: You’re not going to use FT1 for Sharpshooter procs, nor are Precise Sights procs going to stack up Vulnerability as well as Grenadier and Steel Packed Powder unless Precise Sights gets some sort of Duration buff or stack increase in the future.

• Halving the pulses and doubling the damage also makes FT1 less of a Retaliation trap.

As for the direct damage from FT1 being abysmal, that was because the damage was nerfed thanks to the global damage nerfs after beta. In addition, Flamethrower still had Backdraft back then, which also had a damage component and Burning. Coupled with Juggernaut granting Stability on equip, FT was clearly OP.

However:

• After nerfs to Backdraft (now has no damage, does not Burn, pushback),
• The Flame Blast fix that removed double damage at max range
• And removal of Stability from Juggernaut and replacement with Might stacking ,

The damage values deserve looking at again.

If the FT1 missing issues are resolved by turning it into a true skillshot without tracking ; then it may be parsimonious to give FT1 the Arc Lightning treatment with scaling damage the more pulses are landed on an opponent.

• This rewards players for hitting with the full length channel and can justify a damage buff whilst not overly disrupting balance due to it now requiring increased skill to land the last ticks of the channel.

Kimbald.2697:

Important last note:
personally I feel all kits slack behind the damage of bombs and grenades, which also happen to be our simplest melee and ranged weapons to use (and most boring at that…)
There is an issue there, which goes beyond FT alone.

THIS ^^^

I wholesomely agree with this.

Does anyone know if any of the devs have said anything on this matter, or engineer skills in general?

IMO Flamethrower has very good skills as is. 3, 4, and 5 skill are awesome and the ulitility belt skill is a very strong skill to keep a long burn on someone who just used a massive condi clear.

The problem isnt with just the FT, it is just hard for engis to gear for condi removel and include stun breakers/mobility skills at the same time. It really limits your utility choices.

I use Elixer gun, Rocket boots and Nades and to be honest I would have a hard time replaceing them for FT cause I need the stun breaker and I need the extra condi/mobility skills. If I replace the Nades I will have really weak cleave pressure for my team.

If the developers gave stun breakers to the kits main skills, like giveing FT number 5 skill a stun breaker, (maybe reducing the tool belt skill while they are at it) I can guarantee you a lot more engis would play with FT.

Heck, It will make FT and Elixer gun combo very strong to use together in combination with their cool down reduction minor trait in firearms. Giveing Engis a stronger standing against CC spam builds while still haveing decent condi removel/sustain/movement skills.

Greek.4396:

IMO Flamethrower has very good skills as is. 3, 4, and 5 skill are awesome and the ulitility belt skill is a very strong skill to keep a long burn on someone who just used a massive condi clear.

The problem isnt with just the FT, it is just hard for engis to gear for condi removel and include stun breakers/mobility skills at the same time. It really limits your utility choices.

I use Elixer gun, Rocket boots and Nades and to be honest I would have a hard time replaceing them for FT cause I need the stun breaker and I need the extra condi/mobility skills. If I replace the Nades I will have really weak cleave pressure for my team.

If the developers gave stun breakers to the kits main skills, like giveing FT number 5 skill a stun breaker, (maybe reducing the tool belt skill while they are at it) I can guarantee you a lot more engis would play with FT.

Heck, It will make FT and Elixer gun combo very strong to use together in combination with their cool down reduction minor trait in firearms. Giveing Engis a stronger standing against CC spam builds while still haveing decent condi removel/sustain/movement skills.

I would think giving FT/EG users 2 stunbreakers would be a bit OP. Smoke Vent is fine as it is right now. I’d maybe prefer if it was a Smoke field but I won’t lose sleep over it.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Greek.4396:

IMO Flamethrower has very good skills as is. 3, 4, and 5 skill are awesome and the ulitility belt skill is a very strong skill to keep a long burn on someone who just used a massive condi clear.

The problem isnt with just the FT, it is just hard for engis to gear for condi removel and include stun breakers/mobility skills at the same time. It really limits your utility choices.

I use Elixer gun, Rocket boots and Nades and to be honest I would have a hard time replaceing them for FT cause I need the stun breaker and I need the extra condi/mobility skills. If I replace the Nades I will have really weak cleave pressure for my team.

If the developers gave stun breakers to the kits main skills, like giveing FT number 5 skill a stun breaker, (maybe reducing the tool belt skill while they are at it) I can guarantee you a lot more engis would play with FT.

Heck, It will make FT and Elixer gun combo very strong to use together in combination with their cool down reduction minor trait in firearms. Giveing Engis a stronger standing against CC spam builds while still haveing decent condi removel/sustain/movement skills.

I would think giving FT/EG users 2 stunbreakers would be a bit OP. Smoke Vent is fine as it is right now. I’d maybe prefer if it was a Smoke field but I won’t lose sleep over it.

Right. Because a playstyle that requires an insane amount of skill to use properly doesn’t deserve to be extremely powerful.

Anyone saying flamethrower is fine is just blind. No point in saying anything to them because they are obviously not going to listen. Ever seen a flamethrower used in competitive play? doubt it, short of tool belt use/combo field.

VIVorcha.7853:

Right. Because a playstyle that requires an insane amount of skill to use properly doesn’t deserve to be extremely powerful.

Not sure I would say that using the FT/EG combo requires an “insane amount of skill.”

I don’t know how much it’s worth, but I use and do fairly well with power rifle FT/EG in “competitive” PVP. The game has become so spam and condi-centric that engi’s are quick to dismiss any kit that doesn’t play like grenades or bombs.

From my personal experience watching and playing PVP, I hardly EVER see engineers really taking full advantage of the flamethrower (and elixir gun, to a degree).

• I never see anyone using Napalm for projectile finishers, might stacking, stacking burns on immobilized/downed enemies or fire shields with a leap finisher (rifle 5). Often, it’s just laid down in the center of a fight and forgotten about.
• If you’re complaining about a lack of stun breaks vs. things like hammer/mace warriors, we can swap kits while stunned. Swap to the flamethrower and throw out an instant-blind when you see the next one in the chain coming. Granted, it’s not the same as a stun-break but it helps. Plus, with Juggernaut, you gain the extra 200 toughness.
• The tool-tip of Air Blast is ambiguous. Remember that it extends the duration of burns by 2 seconds. Don’t just use it for a random knockback, make sure there is a burn on the target and get that extra damage. Better yet, actually try saving it to interrupt a heal.
• Flame Blast can do great damage to squisher targets. I’ve done 6k with a soldier’s amulet vs glass cannons. Furthermore, the control you have over the detonation offers the opportunity for thoughtful use of such a slow-moving, obvious projectile. What would your reaction be to seeing it coming at you? Dodge? That’s what most people do. Wait for them to waste their dodge/invulnerability and detonate it after.
• The auto-attack is awful, yes. However, it’s the fastest attack we have and it damages in a cone aoe without a target-requirement. Use it to clear blinds on yourself. Use it to get that last bit of damage on a thief that stealthed away at the last second. If the toolbelt burn is down, use it to get that quick burn on the target and extend it with Air Blast.

Go in without any prior expectations and experiment with it. Don’t just slap on a Berserker’s amulet, expect to auto-attack enemies down, fail, and then complain about it on the forums. Some things should be improved, yes, but voicing these grievances in a non-constructive way isn’t going to help that at all.

~Woodstock

I love the Flamethrower, and would really love to see some form of terror come from wielding it. I’ve enjoyed reading this thread, as it has given me ways to think more about the way that we use weapons in this game. I felt very conflicted when they ‘destroyed’ juggernaut and made it into something that doesn’t correctly embody that word or the playstyle that I wish to see with the Flamethrower, but thats ok.

At the end of the day, I just wish I had a reason to stay in Flamethrower for more than 3 abilities, instead of having to swap to elixer gun or pistol/shield (or rifle) to really feel like I can be defensive. As it stands now, I feel very squishy when I am getting attacked and I have the FT equipped, and I feel like Juggernaut should make it so I can play a siege style character that would sit in the fight and instill fear and burning and mayhem and I really don’t feel like I am doing that with the FT.

The flame thrower is like a harpoon gun that makes me go away from the target. shrug