Guild Wars 2

Thank you all for your replies.

There is not much to say that hasn’t already been said, but I suggest many of you re-read the points made by Casia. I will rephrase them with my own points:

Grenade 1 was an extremely powerful ability in both single target and AoE. It still is powerful in single target, but it is not so powerful that it completely shadows all other Engineer builds.
- Pre-patch, Grenade 1 had a skill coefficient of 0.50. With the trait Grenadier, we can hit an opponent with 1.50 (1.65 with Explosive Powder) if all three grenades hit. That skill coefficient was extremely high compared to other Engineer 1 skills, and is extremely high even for Warrior 1 skills.
- Post-patch, Grenade 1 had a skill coefficient of 0.33 per grenade. With the trait Grenadier and all three grenades hitting, we get a skill coefficient of 0.99 – something more in line with other 1 skills though still on the high side.

I encourage everyone to look more closely at the changes to Engineers and how we can maximize our benefit from them.
- Shrapnel was buffed from a 6% proc chance to 15% – more than double.
- Transmute was buffed from 3% to 8% – more than double.
- Sitting Duck was buffed from providing 5% more damage when immobilized to 5 stacks of 8s (base) vulnerability – more than double duration.
- HGH now provides 2 stacks of might instead of one for non-thrown elixirs – better than no change or a nerf.
- Power Shoes, while situationally useful, was buffed from 10% to 25% – more than double.
- Harpoon was buffed to provide more conditions – a welcoming change.
- Grenade 3 and 5 were given damage when it previously had none.
- Most importantly, sigils now work with Engineer kits. I enjoy this change because of the higher versatility we can get from weapon swapping. Damage increasing sigils aside, we can do so much more than – such as leeching health on weapon swap, or freezing nearby enemies on weapon swap.

Thank you, ANet, for the engineering changes.

Meanwhile, I’m going to enjoy my Rifle/Static Discharge build even more due to the changes to Sitting Duck and my Bunker build more due to the changes to Transmute, sigils, and Harpoon.

Casia.4281:

Casia.4281:

are you arguing balance or design? They are two different things.
Arguing balance, when bugs are still on the table is a mistake honestly.
As long as deployable turrets doesnt work in pve, engineers are missing a huge aspect of their profession. would be like trying to balance mesmers with phantasms dealinkittenage. You can’t do it until phantasms get sorted.

phantasm dealing kittenage?

i am done

HGH didn’t quite double, in my humblest opinion, since the throw is still just 1 stack. So it’s more like 1.5 time. But that’s nitpicking…

Sitting Duck is an incredible buff, and far more than “double” effectiveness. I think people should be really looking at this one with Rifle. You can Net Shot once per 8 seconds. Traited. Toss in the duckie, and now every 8 seconds we’re giving the target 5 vulnerability. More if we have condition duration improvements. For a team player, that’s downright incredible.

I agree for the most part with the Grenade nerf, since the low coefficients stack up to really high levels when multiple grenades hit. On top of great condition stacking. But AoE’s just shouldn’t be the single target DPS solution. ANet has said as such as well, and we’ll be seeing other AoE based nerfing on other classes at a close point in the future. We just get it first because our kits are being drastically revamped to allow for weapon stats and sigils, so it’s easier for them to work in the necessary changes.

Kuruptz.4782:

Casia.4281:

Casia.4281:

are you arguing balance or design? They are two different things.
Arguing balance, when bugs are still on the table is a mistake honestly.
As long as deployable turrets doesnt work in pve, engineers are missing a huge aspect of their profession. would be like trying to balance mesmers with phantasms dealinkittenage. You can’t do it until phantasms get sorted.

phantasm dealing kittenage?

i am done

… I was making a comparison. Imagine phantasms were broken like turrets.
If phantasms had flat damage values, died instantly. had 60s cooldowns, and a Massive trait, that would allow them to spawn on target, vs spawning on you, were broken.
How could we possibly discuss greatsword balanced if zerker was broken? we can’t.
the bug needs to be fixed before we an begin discussing balance.

This is where engineers are. With turrets being pretty much broken in pve/wvw, due to deployable turrets not working, we can’t really discuss overall engi balance. Fixing that, would possibly change ALL our builds.
An entire traitline, inventions, and 6 out of 20 of our utility skills are basically unuseable. 1 out of 3 heals.

Casia.4281:

Kuruptz.4782:

Casia.4281:

Casia.4281:

are you arguing balance or design? They are two different things.
Arguing balance, when bugs are still on the table is a mistake honestly.
As long as deployable turrets doesnt work in pve, engineers are missing a huge aspect of their profession. would be like trying to balance mesmers with phantasms dealinkittenage. You can’t do it until phantasms get sorted.

phantasm dealing kittenage?

i am done

… I was making a comparison. Imagine phantasms were broken like turrets.
If phantasms had flat damage values, died instantly. had 60s cooldowns, and a Massive trait, that would allow them to spawn on target, vs spawning on you, were broken.
How could we possibly discuss greatsword balanced if zerker was broken? we can’t.
the bug needs to be fixed before we an begin discussing balance.

This is where engineers are. With turrets being pretty much broken in pve/wvw, due to deployable turrets not working, we can’t really discuss overall engi balance. Fixing that, would possibly change ALL our builds.
An entire traitline, inventions, and 6 out of 20 of our utility skills are basically unuseable. 1 out of 3 heals.

so your telling me when turrets are fixed it puts US in the position with mesmer?

no, im saying when turrets are fixed, we can begin a discussion on balance.

@Kuruptz.4782

Man try to make some sense it obviously ain’t like that, the guy clearly meant that bug fixed would mean an entirely different situation, they have yet to be addressed and it’s been like this since day1 with NO response on dev side even possibly working on such a HUGE issue… do you get my point?

Obviously pve turrets would do some difference, but that’s just one trait that actually works in pvp and should be easy to fix for pve, they are easy to place in unreachable spots AND don’t suffer the “invulnerable” bug, doesn’t it sound tasty just hearin about it even thought they do need the rework on the cooldowns?

Casia.4281:

no, im saying when turrets are fixed, we can begin a discussion on balance.

but why?

i mean on your last posts it looked like your engineer was godlike he was undefeatable he murdered everyone on his way

Wasdclick.1764:

HGH didn’t quite double, in my humblest opinion, since the throw is still just 1 stack. So it’s more like 1.5 time. But that’s nitpicking…

Sitting Duck is an incredible buff, and far more than “double” effectiveness. I think people should be really looking at this one with Rifle. You can Net Shot once per 8 seconds. Traited. Toss in the duckie, and now every 8 seconds we’re giving the target 5 vulnerability. More if we have condition duration improvements. For a team player, that’s downright incredible.

I agree for the most part with the Grenade nerf, since the low coefficients stack up to really high levels when multiple grenades hit. On top of great condition stacking. But AoE’s just shouldn’t be the single target DPS solution. ANet has said as such as well, and we’ll be seeing other AoE based nerfing on other classes at a close point in the future. We just get it first because our kits are being drastically revamped to allow for weapon stats and sigils, so it’s easier for them to work in the necessary changes.

Oh, I forgot about HGH working on thrown elixirs – I don’t use the trait much so I haven’t fully paid attention to how it worked. Thanks for the clarification – I will fix my previous post to reflect this.

It’s cool, I haven’t used it much yet. Ducky has been too tempting to play with, but my usual Pistol/Shield combo doesn’t have an inherent Immobilize so I’m like “grr.”

I do enjoy rifle though, so I don’t think switching is going to antagonize me much

“We want the Warrior to be capable of good melee damage in a sturdy body. They can still do some decent damage at range.”

ANET is so far off in balancing the classes its amazing. There is no way you can justify the nerf when there are classes out there that are astronomically better.

Since the update, I’ve found condition stacking and kit switching with grenades, bombs and pistol with my engineer to be very effective in WvW. The only things I’d complain about is the elixir gun is a bit under powered now, and they need to fix the ridiculous glitch where the flamethrower misses targets at point blank range.

Czar Peter.7961:

Since the update, I’ve found condition stacking and kit switching with grenades, bombs and pistol with my engineer to be very effective in WvW. The only things I’d complain about is the elixir gun is a bit under powered now, and they need to fix the ridiculous glitch where the flamethrower misses targets at point blank range.

But this is the thing, power grenade builds are not as effective as it once was, we now have to go into condition damage to make up the dps we had lost. 30 points to grenadier traits doesn’t mean anything without putting some in condition damage. I feel sorry for our young engineer saplings that would have to painstakingly put up with measly pebble damage until they get the grenadier traits only to do sup par damage.

Right now, I am all out power, precision and condition damage, using full berserker set and chucks full of crits. All of that! to actually be on par with a warrior and to make my grenades viable.

Shoyoko.7309:

Czar Peter.7961:

Since the update, I’ve found condition stacking and kit switching with grenades, bombs and pistol with my engineer to be very effective in WvW. The only things I’d complain about is the elixir gun is a bit under powered now, and they need to fix the ridiculous glitch where the flamethrower misses targets at point blank range.

But this is the thing, power grenade builds are not as effective as it once was, we now have to go into condition damage to make up the dps we had lost. 30 points to grenadier traits doesn’t mean anything without putting some in condition damage. I feel sorry for our young engineer saplings that would have to painstakingly put up with measly pebble damage until they get the grenadier traits only to do sup par damage.

Right now, I am all out power, precision and condition damage, using full berserker set and chucks full of crits. All of that! to actually be on par with a warrior and to make my grenades viable.

Well I’m using rabid armor, carrion trinkets, rampager weapons and runes of the undead. Without any traits that’s 1.1k condition damage. You can then choose to stack bleeding with grenades by putting 30 into firearms for 1.4k condition damage or 30 into inventions and use bombs for some versatility. Berserker gear for grenade builds are no longer viable since spamming 1 is pointless other than to stack bleeding with shrapnel. The way around this is to go full condition damage and to kit switch when 2/3/4/5 are off cd. To be honest I like not having to spam 1 now.

This build doesn’t work for PvE though. I used to run a high power and toughness build with knights armor, grenades and bombs that was super tanky and could deal decent direct damage. That build is no longer viable, so I’ve switched to a tanky flamethrower build for PvE.

@Czar Peter.7961
Berserker build is still viable, in a way, as long as you manage to get enough crit damage and precision to more than 40%, the damage is still on par. You exactly took the words off my mouth, in terms of grenadier, its not viable to do pure power anymore. Because i had to go into firearms trait, i also use flamethrower and do a mix up of both kits, i’m still doing a lot of damage whether I am long-ranged or mid-range and with rifle and net turret, it makes it easy for me to play keep away.

I also had a optional tanky build with nades and turrets, but alas that’s build is no longer viable.

@Czar Peter.7961 one cleanse and all your condition damage is gone., that’s the problem. Condition damage simply isn’t that great for WvW.

Mokinokaro.2158:

ALL of our kits got nerfed due to the sigil thing
Engineers have no useful niche left.

Oi. The other kits were sub-par to begin with. Not nerfed.

Grenades were merely brought into line, and this was done in preparation for when they make it so kits will scale with weapon damage.

When that happens, everything will be peachy.
And don’t you get all “why not nerf grenades after that” BS on me. Other engies are sick of nades, that’s plain fact. Nades were undeniable the best source of DPS and it loomed over everyone’s heads like an overly preachy teacher.

^You are better than me at basketball and that makes me sick.
Instead of getting better at basketball I want you to be weaker at basketball so I can feel better about myself!!!

I think there was a Goosebumps books about this I remember reading forever ago.

I do agree with the OP this nerf wasn’t that bad.
To me its just the reason for the nerf.
They are treating a Skill Shot skill the same as an autoaimed skill.
As easy as everyone claims it is to spam your #1 its not as easy as just clicking once.
So if something is more difficult to perform the pay off should be greater.
So when number cruncher Casia claims that grenades were the highest DPS in the game you are also comparing that to autoaimed skills.

If you are just going to balance things on paper than they will never get balanced.

PPL hate Grenade Engineers for the same reason they hate Thieves.
A Thief can go stealth and gank you and if he fails he can run away.
An Engie can just stand there and spam grenades that hit like a beast.

Ask any Thief and they will claim that it is very easy to counter them by just AOE everywhere and dodging a few times.
Ask an Engineer and they will claim that it is very easy to not get hit with Grenades just move back from the wall or just start moving around period.

End result Thiefs get a buff to stealthing and Engineers get a nerf to Grenades.

Defend it all you want but just like Casia also says we have so many bugs with the rest of our skills and traits (FT-Turrets) that when nerf the best (and least buggy) option that general Engineer players have their is gonna be problems.

Casia again says there is no reason to balance things untill other bugs are fixed.
I agree since most other options are either bugged, UnderPowered or have a really high skill cap then they shouldn’t being trying to fiddlekitten around “balancing” our best general option.

DreamOfACure.4382:

Mokinokaro.2158:

ALL of our kits got nerfed due to the sigil thing
Engineers have no useful niche left.

Oi. The other kits were sub-par to begin with. Not nerfed.

Grenades were merely brought into line, and this was done in preparation for when they make it so kits will scale with weapon damage.

Who said so because from patch notes all I read was the kits were reduced because of sigils. Stop spreading rumors and assumptions unless you have a source for this.

…..yes they were going to bring in mainhand stats affecting kits.
but time ran out for the 14th Dec patch, hence they applied the sigil effect and reduced the damage.

If you really read what the devs posted before – you’d know – I do agree the 30% nerf is a bit much, but most of the Engineer’s stuff aren’t really done at the moment.

So we’ll just have to wait and see.
It does make me look at the Dual Pistol builds more.

SentinelArk.5109:

Thank you all for your replies.

There is not much to say that hasn’t already been said, but I suggest many of you re-read the points made by Casia. I will rephrase them with my own points:

Grenade 1 was an extremely powerful ability in both single target and AoE. It still is powerful in single target, but it is not so powerful that it completely shadows all other Engineer builds.
- Pre-patch, Grenade 1 had a skill coefficient of 0.50. With the trait Grenadier, we can hit an opponent with 1.50 (1.65 with Explosive Powder) if all three grenades hit. That skill coefficient was extremely high compared to other Engineer 1 skills, and is extremely high even for Warrior 1 skills.
- Post-patch, Grenade 1 had a skill coefficient of 0.33 per grenade. With the trait Grenadier and all three grenades hitting, we get a skill coefficient of 0.99 – something more in line with other 1 skills though still on the high side.

I encourage everyone to look more closely…etc

So what both you and Casia are saying is that despite what Arenanet announced publically on Friday the 30% nerf in Grenade 1 damage was because the Grenadier build was overpowered? If that’s true I wish they would clearly state that.

datbabykilla.4307:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLTzyn6CGHw

“We want the Warrior to be capable of good melee damage in a sturdy body. They can still do some decent damage at range.”

ANET is so far off in balancing the classes its amazing. There is no way you can justify the nerf when there are classes out there that are astronomically better.

wait, i don’t get it, what was special in that video?

edit – do you want me to track down and kill that dude? i’m pretty sure i’m fighting blackgate atm.

vvp.8512:

datbabykilla.4307:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLTzyn6CGHw

“We want the Warrior to be capable of good melee damage in a sturdy body. They can still do some decent damage at range.”

ANET is so far off in balancing the classes its amazing. There is no way you can justify the nerf when there are classes out there that are astronomically better.

wait, i don’t get it, what was special in that video?

edit – do you want me to track down and kill that dude? i’m pretty sure i’m fighting blackgate atm.

Since we’re talking about grenades here, are you implying you can kill a ranged class in pvp with grenades? I’d like to see you kill my warrior with grenades.

p.s.: It won’t happen

Not with grenades, no.

edit – that person is posting it as if its proof that warriors are significantly better with rifles than engineers are but nothing in that video is indicative of that.

vvp.8512:

datbabykilla.4307:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLTzyn6CGHw

“We want the Warrior to be capable of good melee damage in a sturdy body. They can still do some decent damage at range.”

ANET is so far off in balancing the classes its amazing. There is no way you can justify the nerf when there are classes out there that are astronomically better.

wait, i don’t get it, what was special in that video?

edit – do you want me to track down and kill that dude? i’m pretty sure i’m fighting blackgate atm.

I watched that video and am convinced now more than ever that Engineers were nowhere close to being overpowered.

Tekyn.5376:

Mif.3471:

I’m so sick of people claiming that Flash Grenades and Poison Grenades doing damage somehow balanced the nerf out.

We lost 35% damage on a skill we use once per second, and gained damage (which is only 1/3 and 2/3 the damage of a skill 1 attack) on skills we use once every 10 and 25 seconds.

It doesn’t even come close to compensating.

Agreed.

Quoted for truth, feels like I’m throwing cotton balls during runs. Even with Superior Sigil of Force and Explosive Powder trait.

CriSPeH.8512:

^You are better than me at basketball and that makes me sick.
Instead of getting better at basketball I want you to be weaker at basketball so I can feel better about myself!!!

I think there was a Goosebumps books about this I remember reading forever ago.

If this is your first MMO I’d like to inform you that nerfs are a common and often necessary part of the game. They aren’t done out of spite (that would be silly) but because one power out of many is too powerful. The options are: change 1 skill by making it weaker, or change X skills by making them stronger. Note that the second option leads to power creep, which means ALL engineer kits are now a lot more powerful. So now you have to buff something on another class because holy cow all engineer kits have 30% more damage now, and on and on. If you only ever go up (buffing), it’s a ton more work for the power balancing team as well.

We aren’t comparing basketball skill. There isn’t supposed to be a “winner” and there aren’t limited positions to fill. All the kits are supposed to be around the same ability and usefulness, so it makes sense to make changes so all of them are closer in power. Your basketball analogy would actually just promote having 95% of all skills be useless.

Balancing in an MMO is like eyeballing pouring water in several differently shaped glasses and trying to make it even. If it turns out one has too much it’s a lot easier to take some out than to put more water in every glass. Especially since eventually it’ll overflow and get water all over the carpet, and I just cleaned that carpet.

Dispari.3980:

Balancing in an MMO is like eyeballing pouring water in several differently shaped glasses and trying to make it even. If it turns out one has too much it’s a lot easier to take some out than to put more water in every glass. Especially since eventually it’ll overflow and get water all over the carpet, and I just cleaned that carpet.

None of the engineer glasses were filled over 2/3… the only one nearly full was the one with the grenade kit.

The carpet was safe, they needed to add water to our glasses after all.
Some glasses were leaking as well by the way, maybe they should fix those before testing too.

Kimbald.2697:

Dispari.3980:

Balancing in an MMO is like eyeballing pouring water in several differently shaped glasses and trying to make it even. If it turns out one has too much it’s a lot easier to take some out than to put more water in every glass. Especially since eventually it’ll overflow and get water all over the carpet, and I just cleaned that carpet.

None of the engineer glasses were filled over 2/3… the only one nearly full was the one with the grenade kit.

The carpet was safe, they needed to add water to our glasses after all.
Some glasses were leaking as well by the way, maybe they should fix those before testing too.

One thing at a time, man. If grenade is the only one that’s above the others, it makes sense to bring it down. Then deal with other things systematically.

Dispari.3980:

One thing at a time, man. If grenade is the only one that’s above the others, it makes sense to bring it down. Then deal with other things systematically.

Well, I’d rather have the others brought up to former grenade level.

I am mainly disgruntled about this change in PvE : the only times I would sit in grenade kit spamming 1 would be PvE solo or group encounters, where enemy movements are easily predicted. It’s a straightforward loss to sustained damage there.

As far as WvW goes, in my experience it does not matter as much since I rely more on the rifle to hit consistently and grenade barrage to burst down targets. Oh well, I used try and carpet bomb every shadow refuge in sight but I don’t know if it is worth bothering anymore.

Dispari.3980:

Kimbald.2697:

Dispari.3980:

Balancing in an MMO is like eyeballing pouring water in several differently shaped glasses and trying to make it even. If it turns out one has too much it’s a lot easier to take some out than to put more water in every glass. Especially since eventually it’ll overflow and get water all over the carpet, and I just cleaned that carpet.

None of the engineer glasses were filled over 2/3… the only one nearly full was the one with the grenade kit.

The carpet was safe, they needed to add water to our glasses after all.
Some glasses were leaking as well by the way, maybe they should fix those before testing too.

One thing at a time, man. If grenade is the only one that’s above the others, it makes sense to bring it down. Then deal with other things systematically.

I’m sorry but now you are the one missing the bigger picture.
There are 7 other test tables with glasses here as well, most of those glasses are more filled than ours.

So no: it does not make sense to remove some of that one fuller glass of ours… it makes perfect sense to fill up all our other glasses first, till we are on the same level as the other tables.

You don’t nerf the one build a profession has that is competetive with the larger part of other profession builds.
You buff all those builds that aren’t competetive.
Because, indeed, as you correctly point at: there is a bigger picture!
(to step back from the analogy since those things tend to lead a life of their own)

I can’t believe that everybody still thinks that the 5% damage sigils are the best way to go. If you’re not using Sigil of Fire, you’re hurting yourself.

Against larger groups in both WvW as pve, in keep defense aside the flamethrower, versus defenders on walls in sieges, to chase runners, against slower moving mobs and bosses in dungeons… what option does an engineer have, that comes close to grenades?

Rifle #1 and throwing the slow flying net at 1200 range?

Pistols piercing and weak aoe at 1050 if traited?

Elixir gun sloooooow cripple ball or the tickling weakness dart at 1200?

Throw wrench to criple if traited at 900?

Mortar that can’t move and dies when you look at it?

Seriously, what do engineers have?

So yes: the should BUFF the other options and kits first!
Almost every other option is lacking in either design, range, damage or plain out buggs.

AlietteFaye.7316:

I can’t believe that everybody still thinks that the 5% damage sigils are the best way to go. If you’re not using Sigil of Fire, you’re hurting yourself.

I got myself a sigil of battle, those 6 stacks of might come in handy, giving you 210 power and 210 condition damage for little to no effort.

Does anyone know how the +5% damage is factored in the damage formula ? Is it applied to the base weapon damage (meh) or to the final result (not bad). ?

NeryK.5301:

AlietteFaye.7316:

I can’t believe that everybody still thinks that the 5% damage sigils are the best way to go. If you’re not using Sigil of Fire, you’re hurting yourself.

I got myself a sigil of battle, those 6 stacks of might come in handy, giving you 210 power and 210 condition damage for little to no effort.

Does anyone know how the +5% damage is factored in the [url]damage formula[/url] ? Is it applied to the base weapon damage (meh) or to the final result (not bad). ?

I thought multipliers all added. But looking at the whole warrior 21k kill shots. I need to look into this. Saw a post saying it was multiplicative for them.

And how many damage you gain from 210 power? Just wonderin’

EDIT: From my rough estimates it’s about 7%.

Isslair.4908:

And how many damage you gain from 210 power? Just wonderin’

EDIT: From my rough estimates it’s about 7%.

Yep. And if you calculate out how much damage you’ll be dishing out with the Sigil of Fire, it comes out to around 10-12% on average. Not to mention it has less effort, and that the stacks of might will be even less useful once stats are working with kits. Then it will only be a little over a 6% damage increase.

Isslair.4908:

And how many damage you gain from 210 power? Just wonderin’

Well… it depends !
I am going to make a few assumptions here, and round up some numbers, taking the rifle hip shot as a reference :
exotic rifle average damage = 1100
engineer character power = 2000
hip shot skill coefficient = 0.65
target armor (heavy golem) = 2600
(Feel free to correct these numbers if they are inacurrate)

Normal damage = 1100 * 2000 * 0.65 / 2600 = 550
Damage with sigil of force (best case scenario + 5% total) = 1100 * 2000 * 0.65 / 2600 * 1.05 = 577.5
Damage with sigil of battle (6 stacks of might, 210 power) = 1100 * (2000 + 210 ) * 0.65 / 2600 = 607.75

There you go.

Can we have both signet of fire and strength? Or only one “active” sigil works?

I don’t ger why Casia keeps saying that grenade 1 was the best aoe DPS in the game. Staff Elementalists could easily beat it over short sprints (which is what matters for PvE; few long fights involve standing still and dpsing without missing for >30s).

It wasn’t exactly a threat to other support DPS roles.

AlietteFaye.7316:

Yep. And if you calculate out how much damage you’ll be dishing out with the Sigil of Fire, it comes out to around 10-12% on average. Not to mention it has less effort, and that the stacks of might will be even less useful once stats are working with kits. Then it will only be a little over a 6% damage increase.

What level of Precision and % crit does that assume? Crit % in particular can have a pretty wide variation.

Also, regarding the “on swap” sigils, are those now working when you switch directly from one kit to another, or do you have to switch through the weapon(s) with the sigils to proc them?

I doubt the 30% nerf will stick. I’m guessing they will end up dialing it back to 10-20% and when they do, people will feel better.

meaning:
1) If they went straight to %10-20 nerf, the engi community would be as upset as now, or close. And it would just sit there, festering, forever.
2) By going to 30 and then dialing it back to %10-20 later, it will leave a warm-fuzzy in some engis, thinking that Anet ‘really hears’ them and washes away the bad taste of the nerf.

The result is the same (10-20%), but playing bad cop/good cop puts out a better vibe than just a straight nerf.. and it ends the ‘situation’ on a positive note.

Ofc i could easily be wrong, time will tell xD

Tested and confirmed.

% modifiers are all multiplied into each other. Frankly, changes all my final assumptions.
I don’t see anyone changing builds based on it. But it helps us getting a better handle on things.

Yet, and other reason power obliterates condition damage.

Kimbald.2697:

I’m sorry but now you are the one missing the bigger picture.
There are 7 other test tables with glasses here as well, most of those glasses are more filled than ours.

So no: it does not make sense to remove some of that one fuller glass of ours… it makes perfect sense to fill up all our other glasses first, till we are on the same level as the other tables.

You forget we’re getting weapon stats in the future. What you’re saying would just lead to nerfs later instead of now.

Dispari.3980:

Kimbald.2697:

I’m sorry but now you are the one missing the bigger picture.
There are 7 other test tables with glasses here as well, most of those glasses are more filled than ours.

So no: it does not make sense to remove some of that one fuller glass of ours… it makes perfect sense to fill up all our other glasses first, till we are on the same level as the other tables.

You forget we’re getting weapon stats in the future. What you’re saying would just lead to nerfs later instead of now.

you don’t nerf for the future, and not a single message of A’net themselves suggests they did.
That’s your interpretation of it, their own message clearly states sigils as the main reason.

And there’s a lot they intend to do and fix for engineers.
They don’t nerf or buff according to possible changes.

First implement weapon stats, and than we’ll see how Op engineers will suddenly become.
They can nerf if it proves too strong in comparison with other professions.

Introducing weapon stats is long overdue and I would welcome it.
The other engineer kits desperately need it, and more.
But that has nothing to do with the current balancing they did.
Not according to Anet devs themselves, only according to you I’m afraid.

Kimbald.2697:

you don’t nerf for the future, and not a single message of A’net themselves suggests they did.
That’s your interpretation of it, their own message clearly states sigils as the main reason.

And there’s a lot they intend to do and fix for engineers.
They don’t nerf or buff according to possible changes.

First implement weapon stats, and than we’ll see how Op engineers will suddenly become.
They can nerf if it proves too strong in comparison with other professions.

Introducing weapon stats is long overdue and I would welcome it.
The other engineer kits desperately need it, and more.
But that has nothing to do with the current balancing they did.
Not according to Anet devs themselves, only according to you I’m afraid.

Reducing the strength of grenade has to do with balancing it with other kits. Adding weapon stats has to do with balancing engineer with other classes. They aren’t going to fix everything in one patch. They even indicated themselves that they prefer incremental balance changes, so fixing things may take a while.

I said originally that the changes in this patch are to rebalance the kits amongst themselves. You responded by saying that engineer is still underpowered versus other classes. Those things have nothing to do with eachother. So, like I said, -30% is to balance kits amongst themselves. Weapon stats is for later and will help balance engineer amongst other classes. These are two completely different situations.

For really large scale AoE dps, Staff Ele was definitely better (hey, it’s Meteor Storm, what are you going to do about it lol), but for smaller scale AoE, like Fireball/Lava Font scale AoE, Engineers had pretty much the same or better. If you assumed Lava Font was up 100% and Fireball fired once per second, it’d be almost even with old Grenades (which Lava Font isn’t up 100% and Fireball fires like once per 1.4 seconds). That’s not factoring in the ramp up that you got from stacking Vulnerability, either.

Staff Ele in fire could stack up Might on cast if they really wanted to, but honestly not very many (good) Eles go that far into Fire. Eruption did decent burst + bleeding, but swapping to Earth means you lose a lot of AoE time and doesn’t really make up for it. I know people say you should always be attunement swapping with Ele, but if your sole purpose is to do a lot of AoE damage with a Staff, sticking in fire really works just fine, if not best, since Air has terrible AoE for anything 3+, Water doesn’t really do any damage, and all Earth can really do as an AoE well for significant damage is Eruption (which has its own problems in short encounters where it’s not your opener for obvious reasons). Other weapon sets do fine swapping around a lot and maintaining relatively high damage, but in Staff pretty much all the really significant sustained AoE that doesn’t really break flow to use is either in Fire or on a pretty long cooldown.

Dispari.3980:

Kimbald.2697:

I’m sorry but now you are the one missing the bigger picture.
There are 7 other test tables with glasses here as well, most of those glasses are more filled than ours.

So no: it does not make sense to remove some of that one fuller glass of ours… it makes perfect sense to fill up all our other glasses first, till we are on the same level as the other tables.

You forget we’re getting weapon stats in the future. What you’re saying would just lead to nerfs later instead of now.

Is there a confirmed source from the developers that we’re getting weapon stats in the future?

Tekyn.5376:

Is there a confirmed source from the developers that we’re getting weapon stats in the future?

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/Generell-questions-about-kits-sigils/first#post928692

Straight from the top brass.