Guild Wars 2

So, I’m new to engineering and starting to plan out my level 80 build. Conventional wisdom here seems to say that grenades are the best choice for DPS. I’m looking around for skill coefficients and activation times, but everyone seems to be saying something different.

I did my own math and some frame counting in FRAPS and this is what I found:

Grenade “Auto”-Attack:
0.31 (x3) every 1s (0.93 coefficient DPS)

Bomb Kit Auto-Attack:
1.19 (x1) every 0.86s (1.38 coefficient DPS)

Timing is from the first appearance of damage to the second.
Tested both in the Mists and in LA, same results.

You are right bomb 1 does more damage than grenade 1, but:

1. Grenades gives 3 times as much vulnerability stacks and procs more “on crit” stuff.
2. Grenades is more reliable sustained dps as you can throw them and stand at a safe distance. As bombs you need to go into melee range and get whacked because engi’s are walking agro magnets.
3. Grenades 2 to 5 skill + toolbelt skill > bombs counterparts (not saying that bombs are bad though).

Bombs are however great for support/bunker if you have elixer infused bombs.

I’m not sure of what you are asking. Do you mean to highlight the fact that bombs scale better and do more damage than traited grenades? if so, then this isn’t a new thing.

Since the infamous grenade nerf (~30% reduction of grenade 1) bombs have been the higher hitting explosive of the two. This is balanced because grenades have a higher range than bombs and their toolbelt factors into the kit’s total damage, as opposed to BoB which is more useful for it being a blast finisher.

The reason people go for grenades, even when expecting to use them point blank, is because of the limited range and the delay on bomb kit skills. These factors make bomb kit less effective in PvP.

I’ve been digging for activation times.

This source says grenades activate faster than bombs:
http://pvx.gw2buildcraft.com/Damage_Calculations#Engineer

This one says they are the same (includes the old coeff):
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/Engineer-skill-coeffs/first#post814903

My fraps’ing shows bombs attacking faster. Sharing the data.

Cursory inspection of methodology:
You mentioned that the numbers above were based on your FRAPS recording. At what distance were you throwing the grenades from?

I was attacking at point blank range — but I was measuring the time between damage appearing while spamming the ability and not just the initial cast bar time, so distance shouldn’t be a factor when standing still.

(On a side note, Whack/Smack/Thwack suffers from a 0.5s delay after the last ability. The full chain takes around 3.25 seconds to execute from whack to whack damage.)

Using “autos” as an Engineer in general is a DPS loss, I find the best builds find ways to use damage cooldowns as often as possible instead of autos. That said, between Bombs and Nades it’s likely Nades come out superior due to the extra Vuln and proc chances. Bombs work better for condi-builds or heal bomb builds.

It’s interesting to see your results on the Tool Kit, I recall it being much quicker then even 3 seconds for a full combo. I wonder if they’ve messed with it somehow since I tested it so long ago. I’ve always advocated Tool Kit as the highest DPS auto, but if it’s 3.25 seconds now that isn’t likely to be the case.

Something that just occurred to me on the subway to work this morning: Grenades use ground targeting. The 0.1s difference is probably caused by having to double tap. I’m going to retest tonight with quick targeting set to see how much of a difference it makes.

In terms of vulnerability, here’s a though experiment with some fuzzy math:

With a defiant boss (-50% vulnerability duration) you are looking at the difference of ~9 stacks of vulnerability with grenades and ~3 stacks with bombs. 6% damage in a group of 5 each doing 2k DPS is 600 DPS. If you are auto-attacking only with 2k power, 50%, +150% (250%) crit damage, on paper you’ll be averaging 1800 DPS with bombs and 1200 DPS with grenades (using my coefficients above and the 969 * Power * Coeff / 2600 formula, and excluding vulnerability). Toss in the difference in vulnerability and both kits are contributing the same theoretical DPS.

Nice test Kandolo.

I feel like Grenades shouldn’t have the same dps as bomb. As they can be traited for 1500 range, while bombs have 0 range, and a delay timer when you use them.

I find grenade to be a better choice then Bomb in almost any situation.

Condtions Grenade are more efficient for me because it proc more earth and trait bleed. It also has more chance to proc Incendiary powder.

I only take bomb over grenade when I use a confusion build. And it’s only for the concusion bomb.

Sure, #1 BK have huge DPS (maybe, it have top DPS of any engineer’s tools) but it’s time lag before explosion fully ruins this kit usage in the high dinamic combats.

Vadon.1496:

You are right bomb 1 does more damage than grenade 1,
1. Grenades gives 3 times as much vulnerability stacks and procs more “on crit” stuff.

Do keep in mind that some bomb kit skills have pulsing effects that apply vulnerability at every pulse. This means that some of these skills may apply more stacks per skill than grenades, especially if not traited for grenades.