Guild Wars 2

I like the idea but not the method for implementation. Simply put its just to late in the game to make the change in this manner. Invalidates to much player investment.

Actually wearing heavy armor is something I think is far to much work in implementation, and would be development hours better spent on bug fixing, skill balancing, anything with the Mortar a.k.a. “pile of wet dog !@#$” , and that atrocity they call our downed state. I see all of those fixes happening with relative ease in comparison to transitioning the class to heavy armor in a manner that won’t make Engineers angry.

Perhaps, as a counter idea, allowing Engineers to wear ALL armor and alter tool belt skill Cool Downs based on that. Heavy armor would increase tool belt cool down time, medium armor is unchanged, and light armor reduces tool belt cool downs. This way it integrates into existing mechanics without mucking anything up. It would compensate us for lacking weapon diversity by having a unique armor diversity.

Possible issues to “traiting” for heavy armor
1. Where do you put it?
What traitline should hold such a “defining” (? – is 200 ish toughness truly defining?) trait. Personally, I would place it in either Inventions (reinvent your armor to be heavy) or tools (your tools add armor).
2. What tier trait should it be?
Should it be a heavy investment? Does 200 ish toughness require/warrant as heavy an investment as 30/25 into a traitline? Personally, I prefer it be an adept tier trait that scales with lv
3. Should it be a minor or major trait?
Should we get it for going into the traitline, or do we have to chose it (giving up other possible choices)? Personally, I prefer it be an minor trait (just to test if it would break anything)

They’re already working on ways to have every class use every weapon, though the armor-influenced cooldown idea is actually interesting; otherwise, it simply runs into the same old quandary.

On a side-note: They apparently have several teams working separately at any one time. I’m not certain how they’re divided, however.

I would say yes just because i think Medium armor is 90% horrific looking. Its all trench coats…i do like the new set though.

“ArenaNet has definitely done a lot to make Engineers feel comfortable with their options at the medium armor tier”.

You mean like the Light Aetherblade Armor that looks way better then it ’s Medium Counterpart EVEN if the whole theme of the Aetherblades fit way more around the Engineer theme ? Heck all there of those Skins should have been available for us.

To put it simple:

I couldn’t care less if it ’s called Heavy, Medium or Light Armor.

But STOP making all Medium Armors out of Leather only with all those ugly texture structures on almost every single one of them. Yes I know there is at least a little bit of metal here and then but it ’s way to less.

Another example would be Thiefs. Which Thief would take a leather Trenchcoat if he could use a light one made out of silk that has some leather plates hidden at vital Bodyparts? Now transfer that example to the Engineer, just with metalplates on the outside added and a thinner layer of leather on the inside.

I always wondered why engineers were in Medium armor. I always felt like they could easily make Heavy Armor work. Actually it seems to fit better than Medium.

+1 to Heavy Armor
+1 to an Engineer Melee Weapon like Hammer

Saw this related thread in the thief forums

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Heavy-up-the-thief/first#post2526158

Enjoy.

This is the worst idea ever! Heavy armor for one is god kitten ugly on my tiny cute asura engi. She’s wearing the medium aetherblade skins. So byby hard spend gold….?

And low dmg :S I spend months getting my build to high dps and learning how not to die. Im good at it! And I love doing dmg. So IMHO this suggestion is the worst ever.

Aberrant: Hahah, wow. That’s an amusing thread. It’s also interesting to see the thief response to it actually addressing the thought of the change itself, as opposed to the method; perhaps I shouldn’t have brought up the method at all, if I wanted people to actually discuss the idea.

Kuess: I don’t feel like going back to Page #1 to quote this, but aesthetics were accounted for in the original idea specifically because I knew some people would dislike the aesthetics of the Heavy armor and/or have bought special skins.

Anymras.5729:

Kuess: I don’t feel like going back to Page #1 to quote this, but aesthetics were accounted for in the original idea specifically because I knew some people would dislike the aesthetics of the Heavy armor and/or have bought special skins.

Just wondering, did it ever occur to you that the reason most people keep complaining about the aesthetic issue in spite of you addressing it in your opening post is because to most of us your ideas for that problem are either inadequate or so unfeasible that no one actually bothers to acknowledge their existence?

I give you points for coming up with an idea. But I revoke those points for constantly saying what equates to “Arena Net could just do X” in spite of the fact that Arena Net confirmed dozens, if not hundreds, of times that they would never do that specific thing.

And no; having it be client side only is no solution. Not only is it demanding an unreasonable amount of development time and resources for something that only a select portion of the community will ever see, to say nothing of an issue that future players will not have to deal with as they wouldn’t have pre-existing soul bound medium armor, it would also be a waste of time because any time someone takes a look at a friend’s screen shot or video the illusion would be completely undone. And with a community driven game with aspirations of becoming an eSport being able to recognize your own character on someone else’s client is a rather important feature.

Aberrant.6749:

Saw this related thread in the thief forums

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Heavy-up-the-thief/first#post2526158

Enjoy.

I cant stop to repeat myself from saying that:

I think most of those request come from the fact that most leather textures look plain ugly. Add some more metal and silk and everyone will be happy. Both gemshop skins are a step in the right direction but it could be even better.

Arkham: It hadn’t occurred to me, actually, because very few people arguing against it on the grounds of aesthetics actually bother to make a point besides “But I like the look of Medium armor,” which leads to me going “Did you even read the first post?”
If you’ll recall, you didn’t even read it before posting at first; I wouldn’t be surprised in the least if you weren’t the only one who went “Heavy armor? No! I like my Medium!”

Moving on to the points you’ve made:

I’ve attempted to address that they’ve stated they wouldn’t do it, and in fact the last couple sentences of the post were intended to address the reasons people have mentioned for it to not happen – misidentification of class and/or misestimation of armor values, as far as I can recall, were the big things – and if the method isn’t satisfactory, then I don’t have a way to make it so. I am uncertain as to why, precisely, the method is not satisfactory, however, at least in non-PvP areas, besides the development time.

I can’t deny that it would take a lot of development time, but I also don’t think that’s necessarily a bad thing. After all, part of the idea for how to implement it was “announce it months in advance” so people can get used to the idea and prepare for it, even people who don’t have a lot of time on their hands.

I hadn’t considered s/tPvP (I think that’s what’s being referred to in the eSport comment?), I’ll admit; lack of familiarity led to lack of consideration. I’m not certain how this idea would best be modified to adjust to it; any ideas, beyond either scrapping the whole thing or skipping trying to minimize the outcry of “But I liked my leather looks?”

Currently, the only thing coming to me is “Both sides will see the Heavy armor,” but that, of course, just leads to “And then people will be unfamiliar with their own looks.”

Alternately, I suppose an option could be “Check whether a given Engineer has gemstore/dungeon/temple armors bound to them, refund them the gems/dungeon tokens/karma points, transfer Leatherworker ranks to Armorsmith (along with attendant recipes), give a Black Lion Salvage Kit (to retrieve upgrade components such as runes and gems) and sufficient money to buy the crafting materials for the most expensive set of Heavy armor available to be worn by that character, while still replacing their Medium armor with a Heavy version, including transfer of runes” and skip any attempt to keep the looks. I imagine that’d require much less development time, and would also prevent any illusions from being undone (by never bothering with them in the first place). Sound more to your liking?

Also, you still haven’t said why this is such an alarming idea that you’ve deigned to waste your time responding to a pointless thread. I’m still curious.

Anymras.5729:

Also, you still haven’t said why this is such an alarming idea that you’ve deigned to waste your time responding to a pointless thread. I’m still curious.

Because, frankly, Arena Net has done ridiculously stupid and unfavorably received things before on the whims of the “vocal minority,” so I wouldn’t put it past them to do something else ridiculously stupid and unfavorable because of one “pointless” thread. To be honest while I continue to trust Arena Net’s intent with the game, the philosophy that inspired me to buy it in the first place, I do not trust Arena Net to be able to properly distinguish between what the core community actually want, and what is desired by a handful of forum crybabies that were never part of the target audience to begin with.

Call me elitist or entitled if you want to, but as someone who has been with the Guild Wars series for years, spent hundreds of dollars on in-game goods and officially licensed peripherals, pre-purchased Guild Wars 2 (not just a dime-a-dozen pre-order like new games always get), and who embraced and defended some of their crazier pre-release ideas (like no gear progression, no end-game, and no trinity), I feel like my opinions and desires should be held above those of some random former WoW player who is only here because Total Biscuit made a few videos. Heck, without players like me there wouldn’t be a Guild Wars 2. But thus far Arena Net, or perhaps NC Soft, seem to be making it more and more of a habit to completely ignore the people that allowed Arena Net to become something other than just another failed MMO company and instead pander to the masses that a large number of those core fans came to Guild Wars to get away from.

And before you reply; no I wasn’t calling you a WoW fanboy. I don’t know your history with this series or that one, and I’m not speaking about you with that paragraph. But my point stands; someone on the development or publishing side of this game got blinded by the (false) hope of WoW dollars and turned their backs on the players that made them anything to begin with. So as much as I hate ideas and threads like this, it wouldn’t surprise me at all for Arena Net to do it. As to why I keep posting, well, at the very least I want my objection on record, even if no one that matters will read it.

I can respect that. Thank you for sharing your reasons.

If it’s comforting at all, I wouldn’t call this a vocal minority – a minority, certainly, but not so vocal; compare to Engineer Hammer threads, for example, which earned enough attention that the Engineer having a Hammer was the one specific “Yes, that will happen.” mentioned in the interview where Anet revealed their intent to give every class every weapon.

The opinions have been mixed, even if many have gone largely unexplained, and I’d wager that the amount of support this idea has received is about equal with the amount of resistance – and the support has generally been “Huh, well, I guess that’d be pretty okay.” after having various bits pointed out and explained in more detail (i.e.: Lukewarm). This thread will probably die again in the next few days, anyway, and maybe be necro’d once more in three or four months.

In short: I don’t actually think that the Engineer will ever end up in Heavy Armor, and I’m the guy who proposed it.

Anymras.5729:

If it’s comforting at all, I wouldn’t call this a vocal minority – a minority, certainly, but not so vocal; compare to Engineer Hammer threads, for example, which earned enough attention that the Engineer having a Hammer was the one specific “Yes, that will happen.” mentioned in the interview where Anet revealed their intent to give every class every weapon.

Just to clarify; Arena Net didn’t give any examples of their plans to give every profession every weapon that we know of. I read that article too, and was one of the first to break the news in the engineer sub-forum (at least based on a few replies I got from people shocked and in disbelief), so I can say with confidence that we didn’t actually get a single direct quote from Colin or anyone else at Arena Net there. Something was said that made the author believe that such was their goal, and Arena Net hasn’t stepped in to counter any of those claims, but that is where it ends. Any examples given came from MMORPG.com, not Arena Net.

On that point just look at this sub-forum; you can go ten pages deep and find a grand total of two threads with a developer response; one of them being just a “hey that’s cool” reply to a gameplay video. The other just so happens to be in my little hobby thread. And that response is three months old and reeks of false information (given game updates and releases following said response), and was only given when the thread in question was in the general discussion sub-forum, before being sent here to die. Oh, and just as the final straw; that thread is only on page one because I just necro’ed it.

I think it is pretty obvious that the vast majority of Arena Net staff don’t give a flying dolyak about the engineer or the people playing it, and I’m confident in saying that our profession probably wasn’t mentioned at all in that interview. Want proof of that? Log in and display one of those pretty new back skins, then swap a kit on and off a few times. See how long before the two items clip together. That bug has been there, ignored, since beta. I’ve reported it like a dozen times before I just gave up.

Arena Net doesn’t care about engineers.

They specifically went “Engineers with Hammers? Check.” Though I suppose that’s not a direct quote from an Anet staffer, it’s an awfully specific thing to say when mentioning a general increase in weapon choices. Still, fair point; it’s not directly stated by an Anet staffer.

As for the rest? Yeah, I know.

I know the Kit and Back Item thing has been an issue since Beta – and that Colin Johanson has apparently mentioned a couple times that this is known of, and we’ve not heard anything regarding it from the staff since he mentioned his 8-Bit Backpack (I think that post was after the post in the Legendaries thread, though it’s apparently vanished). I even check, sometimes, when there’s not a thread about it on the front page, and always find that it’s still there.

I know there were threads upon threads talking about how Scope didn’t work – and that no staff member seemed to know that it wasn’t working until somebody posted on the sPvP boards and was informed by a staffer that it was working…or at least that the script looked good (only for the Engineers to start doing 10,000 shot tests to prove them wrong).

I know the various bugs regarding Turrets have been reiterated a thousand times, and rarely, if ever, received a staff response – I even posted a video demonstrating them ignoring Claw of Jormag, Tequatl the Sunless, and The Shatterer, on the Game Bugs forum, and received no response…while a Ranger talking about how one trait wasn’t working properly with one skill got a response thanking them for reporting it, and a report about the Flute having issues after the recent change to how notes are handled got a response, too. I’ll make a video of turrets failing to attack every single world boss, and of Overcharges not working properly, and I doubt they’ll respond to that, either.

I also remember that Rocket Boots was once ‘temporarily disabled’ because it had a particular glitch it would occasionally cause, and I’m still waiting for it to be re-enabled, particularly now that the Rocket Boot skill does something different.

I’m pretty sure you’re right, that they don’t care; if they do, they’re certainly not showing it. Bit depressing, really.

I am not sure I agree with the concept of heavy armor class for engineer. It is an adventurer profession (like thief as well), and this alone dictates a medium armor set for it.

Am not going to debate your other points, but from a role play PoV, medium armor (leather in particular) fits the engineer theme best.

Anelyn.4593:

I am not sure I agree with the concept of heavy armor class for engineer. It is an adventurer profession (like thief as well), and this alone dictates a medium armor set for it.

Am not going to debate your other points, but from a role play PoV, medium armor (leather in particular) fits the engineer theme best.

It could be argued both ways. But Thief in heavy armor makes zero sense.

The classification of classes as ‘Soldier,’ ‘Adventurer,’ and ‘Scholar’ is entirely determined by what weight of armor they wear, as far as I can tell. Suggesting a class be changed from Medium armor to Heavy is the same as suggesting they be changed from Adventurer to Soldier, if you want to muck around with the idiosyncratic names.

What about Medium armor fits the Engineer better than Heavy, from a roleplay standpoint, though?

Can some one link the interview about the additional weapons? Would be appreciated

Anymras.5729:

I’m pretty sure you’re right, that they don’t care; if they do, they’re certainly not showing it. Bit depressing, really.

Personally I find it enraging, so I try not to think about it. Just keep bumping my thread and hoping someone will notice, or that maybe one day it will get enough responses to make them notice. But if I stop to think about the most notable thing they’ve ever done for engineers is to shift their philosophy from completely ignoring us to trying to sell us (through gem store skins and RNG boxes) the visual identity we should have had at release, it really ticks me off. Likewise for if I stop to think about how they love to taunt us by adding three new back skins with every update.

Makes me think we should try to get a little movement going, but I’m pretty sure that kind of thing would quickly lead to deleted threads and banned accounts. After all; the only time any mods pay attention to us is when we’re making a scene.

Aberrant: http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/473/feature/7597/Guild-Wars-2-ArenaNets-Master-Plan-for-2013.html

Arkham: Likewise. On the other hand…at this point, I’m not really concerned if I get banned from the forums. I’m not even really all that worried about getting banned from the game, considering that I haven’t spent any money in the Gem Store specifically because of the feeling that this class’s bugs are being ignored. Or deprioritized. Or set aside in favor of the skin factory and the ‘Living Story.’ I’m pretty sure I’d have the same sort of attitude if I mained a Necromancer, too, come to think of it.

What kind of movement would you get going if you were going to get one going? Video evidence of all bugs? Boycotting the gem store? In-game sit-ins?

Here’s the rules I see as potentially important in this thought, at least as far as concerns the forums:

• Do not post petitions, “I demand an answer” threads, conspiracy threads, or comments about circumventing the rules.
• Do not post about locked, deleted, or otherwise moderated threads or posts.
• Do not engage in staff call-outs. Using the words “ArenaNet” or any staff member’s name will not expedite the answer to your query.
• Be respectful. Be pleasant to forum members, staff members, and moderators.

We can turn this thread into a thought experiment – in the end, that’s all it’ll end up being anyway, more than likely, or we can make a new one for it. All up to anybody interested in hashing this out; I’m tired of this class feeling ignored, to put it perfectly frankly, and I want to see if we can make a difference. At the very least, a thought-thread will give us somewhere to dump the vitriol.

Guys seriously, the engineer as a class is strong enough as it is now full stop here.
They`re well balanced, and i think no non engineer player would welcome the heavy armor thing u suggest here.
Engineers survivability is well rounded, no need to add extra armor to this class.
Imagine Necros would get heavy armor, hahahahaha cmon guys this is absolutely hilarious.

Other weapons i might agree with, but no boost to survivability anymore, they`re really strong enough, and if u disagree your betraying yourself, just look at the well played engineers out there.

Seeing an engineer in plate armor would be ridicioulus, the image i got in my head makes my eyes bleed.

No non-Engineer player? What non-Engineer player do you think I would possibly be trying to appeal to? I posted this on the Engineer boards.

At this point there is really only one thing we can do, and doing so pretty much assures that those who agree to take part will be getting some forum bans in the process. You said yourself that one of the few developer responses you’ve seen was a rather….condescending, response in the PvP forums, and the only legitimate one I’ve seen was before my thread was exiled here from general discussion. The mods and developers are ignoring us. Anything we post here in the engineer sub-forum may as well not exist, and really the same goes for the suggestions forums. So there is really only one thing we can do; the same thing every small and unimportant country does that always gets the attention of the United Nations; invasion.

We have to become a nuisance to our neighbors. If Arena Net likes to ignore us, we just do a little research and find the profession sub-forum that gets the most attention and then start posting all our issues and ideas there. We have to, in mass, migrate to a more popular profession’s forum and not leave until they show us the same respect and attention. Again; this will result in bans. Lots of bans. But as I said; anything we say or do here is irrelevant.

Having glanced over the subforums of other professions, I’m not so sure their subforums get much attention, either.

As I have lots of time on my hands, I may well end up going through pages and pages of threads just counting the number of “A Dev Talked Here” tags at some point tonight or tomorrow.

Until then, I wonder what would happen if the Engineers threadbombed the Bug forum with videos and pictures of Turrets not functioning, of kits clipping through back items, etcetera, with each making their own thread to call attention to it? I know that this would lead to the threads being merged, but how likely does it seem to get attention?

This would be cool, but what about all the people who like their medium armour skins? this is never going to happen lol

Anymras.5729:

Aberrant: http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/473/feature/7597/Guild-Wars-2-ArenaNets-Master-Plan-for-2013.html

All weapons for all classes.. engineer with heavy armor… if arena-net will do this, i say bye bye guild wars 2.

OP i kinda laughed when you said something about a Dervish profession being added.

Anet has pretty much hit all the archetypes in the MMO fantasy so a Dervish is more like a guardian and warrior put together.

You can always play dervish on GW1 though … Have fun.

Anymras.5729:

I can’t deny that it would take a lot of development time, but I also don’t think that’s necessarily a bad thing. After all, part of the idea for how to implement it was “announce it months in advance” so people can get used to the idea and prepare for it, even people who don’t have a lot of time on their hands.

You’re talking about a developer that took nearly 9 months to fix Scope and to-date still hasn’t figured out a method to hiding Engineer kit backpacks.

Not that I think it’s due to a lack of caring, but the ArenaNet team is obviously stretched thin and is focused on other projects; they have bigger fish to fry. It’s not that them spending time adjusting the class is “necessarily a bad thing,” it’s that the changes you propose versus time investment don’t seem to carry significant payoff.

I just completely abhor your framing of the entire situation.

Anymras.5729:

1: Move the Engineer to Heavy Armor from Medium. Why:

• If this were to be done, it would allow the Dervish to be added as a Medium-armor class without disrupting the grid.
• There would be a class with high Condition capabilities in each tier of armor.
• Several traits would make more sense, such as the ones that give you bonuses for not dodging or moving.
• The Engineer would become the complete antithesis of the Elementalist – instead of squishy, high-damage wizard with more weapon skills than anyone else, a highly durable, but low-damage, tech-based (to the complete exclusion of magic excluding alchemy) class with more Utility skills available at any one time than anyone else.

1. There’s nothing that suggests there must be a heavy armor class that has high condition capability.

2. Enduring Damage, a trait that gives you a 10% increase in damage with full Endurance, is actually named and operates exactly the same as an Elementalist trait in the Earth tree.

3. Engineers are not “low damage.” The Bomb Kit has one of the hardest hitting auto-attacks in the game, and the Grenade Kit has some of the best sustained DPS through a mixture of both conditions and direct damage.

Phineas Poe.3018:

3. Engineers are not “low damage.” The Bomb Kit has one of the hardest hitting auto-attacks in the game, and the Grenade Kit has some of the best sustained DPS through a mixture of both conditions and direct damage.

And both of them have got drawbacks – bombs’ delay/small base radius and grenades’ accuracy on ranged attacks, for example (also, speccing for grenades is basically needed, they’re so bad otherwise). Also, the autoattack is the only power-based attack for both of them – the direct damage on the other skills is negligible, they basically only do conditions. This also means you’ve either got to raise both power and condition damage, or rely heavily on might. But i would say, every class would do wonders with high might stacks.
Regarding the autoattack themselves, how comes every single time i make a critique about the terrible flamethrower autoattack i get told that we aren’t supposed to use it – even if the juggernaut trait is supposed to make us stay in that kit to both maintain and use the bonuses – but it is fine for grenades and bombs instead, who haven’t got similar bonuses? Just because the autoattacks are already nice, even if what i would like on the flamethrower is exactly that, a decent autoattack?
Also, due of the hybridness of those kits, we really haven’t got much choices for power builds.

Regarding the heavy armor on engineer, well…imho, it should have been maintained, seeing as the class itself lacks the baseline evasive possibilities of the other adventurers’ classes.
Rangers have got evades on their weapon sets, but also a pet that can tank for them.
Thieves have got some evades as well, but also some good sources of blinds.
And both of them can swap between weapon sets to use them. We aren’t even talking about utilities here.
On the other side we have got some immobilizes and control skills on our weapons, plus a 2s block on a 40s cooldown. But unlike evades or blinds, our CC skills are blocked by stability and defiant stacks, thus nullifying their defensive capabilities. Also, no swap – so we’ll have either an immobilize or a block, plus the control skills (that suffer of the problem mentioned above).
Even if we talk about kits, the problem is still there. The ones that require us to go near melee range have got at most either a single blind or a block (but at least the gear shield is good). Still, we have no real bursts there, so we’re supposed to stay near the enemies to sustain our dps even when those few defensive skills are on cooldown.
While in PvP this isn’t that much of a problem, in PvE this is quite problematic. Our CC skills can’t do anything versus enemies with defiant, whileas evades and blinds would still work. And the damage of their attack is also on another scale compared to PvP, thus having to stay in melee to sustain that damage isn’t that good for engineers’ health. Sure, we can trait to reduce those problems, but so can other classes – and they will still have better defensive capabilities than us.
And this is why i think heavy armor would be more appropriated than the medium one.

Manuhell, you wrote a lot here. I’m not going to respond to everything, but I will address (what I think to be) the larger points of your argument.

Manuhell.2759:

And both of them have got drawbacks – bombs’ delay/small base radius and grenades’ accuracy on ranged attacks, for example (also, speccing for grenades is basically needed, they’re so bad otherwise). Also, the autoattack is the only power-based attack for both of them – the direct damage on the other skills is negligible, they basically only do conditions.

I disagree completely.

The Bomb Kit’s “small” radius is not a drawback. It’s a strength, given that it’s an AoE while pretty much every other weapon in the game is either single target, piercing, or cleave.

While what you said about direct damage may be true about the Bomb Kit, that definitely is not true about the Grenade Kit. Shrapnel Grenade and Freeze Grenade do significantly more direct damage than Grenade (#1) does on the Grenade Kit.

Manuhell.2759:

how comes every single time i make a critique about the terrible flamethrower autoattack i get told that we aren’t supposed to use it – even if the juggernaut trait is supposed to make us stay in that kit to both maintain and use the bonuses – but it is fine for grenades and bombs instead, who haven’t got similar bonuses?

When people say “you’re not supposed to use Flame Jet,” what they’re really saying is “you’re not supposed to rely on Flame Jet as your primary DPS.” Between maintaining Might stacks with Napalm, triggering Acid Bomb every 12 seconds, and dropping Healing Turret, Elixir R, Elixir U, or whatever for your group, you’re not really going to be standing there spamming Flame Jet very often versus triggering two Flame Blasts between every Blunderbuss with your Rifle.

Compared to a kit like the Bomb Kit, which, like you said, doesn’t do a whole lot of damage around its auto-attack, an FT (and EG) Engineer has many different skills to rotate instead. People tell you that Flame Jet isn’t that great because with the FT/EG build you’re dishing out 2500+ DPS before even taking Flame Jet into consideration thanks to Acid Bomb and Flame Blast. And that’s a conservative estimate.

I’ve been pretty clear on this point for several months now; if you’re still confused, you’re welcome to discuss it with me in the appropriate thread. There are several.

Manuhell.2759:

Our CC skills can’t do anything versus enemies with defiant, whileas evades and blinds would still work.

Rifle Engineers can blind their targets every ten seconds, and can blind them again when struck by a melee attack. Never mind the fact that we have access to a three Smoke Fields between Smoke Bomb, Smoke Screen (Flame Turret), and Toss Elixir U.

And then there’s Smoke Vent and Flash Grenade.

But why does this comparison matter, anyway? We are one of the best bunker classes in the game, so we clearly don’t need more evades. And we obviously don’t need heavy armor either.

OP dislikes kits, dislikes medium armor, feels abandoned—I think he’s better off just re-rolling a different class. And I think you need to take a few moments and re-examine our capabilities before replying to this post. Because we have no need for any built-in evades, we blind just as good as any other class, and the Bomb Kit and Grenade Kit both have very little if any drawbacks. They’re just a play style different from yours.

Beware: here comes the Wall Of Text. There will be no TL;DR.

I disagree completely.

The Bomb Kit’s “small” radius is not a drawback. It’s a strength, given that it’s an AoE while pretty much every other weapon in the game is either single target, piercing, or cleave.

A small AoE with a delayed activation, though. Something that makes them easily avoidable even in PvP, even if they’re balanced in that purpose – something that all classes have in common, but that bites us especially due to the nature of a good part of our defensive capabilities (more about that later).

Phineas Poe.3018:

While what you said about direct damage may be true about the Bomb Kit, that definitely is not true about the Grenade Kit. Shrapnel Grenade and Freeze Grenade do significantly more direct damage than Grenade (#1) does on the Grenade Kit.

You’re right about this; still, most of the direct damage capabilities of the grenade kit depend on its grandmaster traits. Maintaining those stacks of vulnerability does a great deal about that purpose. Still, it needs quite an heavy specialization into that tree to do that – let’s speak frankly, it is quite lackluster without those traits – and that works quite in contrast with the versatility of the class.

Phineas Poe.3018:

When people say “you’re not supposed to use Flame Jet,” what they’re really saying is “you’re not supposed to rely on Flame Jet as your primary DPS.” Between maintaining Might stacks with Napalm, triggering Acid Bomb every 12 seconds, and dropping Healing Turret, Elixir R, Elixir U, or whatever for your group, you’re not really going to be standing there spamming Flame Jet very often versus triggering two Flame Blasts between every Blunderbuss with your Rifle.
Compared to a kit like the Bomb Kit, which, like you said, doesn’t do a whole lot of damage around its auto-attack, an FT (and EG) Engineer has many different skills to rotate instead. People tell you that Flame Jet isn’t that great because with the FT/EG build you’re dishing out 2500+ DPS before even taking Flame Jet into consideration thanks to Acid Bomb and Flame Blast. And that’s a conservative estimate.

I’ve been pretty clear on this point for several months now; if you’re still confused, you’re welcome to discuss it with me in the appropriate thread. There are several.

And this is where our opinions differ. The juggernaut trait give us two bonuses.
The toughness one that requires you to be in that kit while you get hit, and the might stacks that require you to stay in the kit for them to be charged up and maintained.
Why giving us bonuses that force us to stay in the kit for them to work if we aren’t supposed to stay in the kit due of us being useless if we do so (after all the only skills we can really use to attack are the first and the second one, and the autoattack is really bad)?
Still, the flamethrower itself was designed with other skills and other traits – that toughness had sense with the old juggernaut trait since both the bonuses were instant ones, they didn’t force you to stay in the kit like the current might one does – and with the old skills – when you can pull enemies to you, having additional toughness to not get mauled is quite good.
While the current ones, imho, make no sense together. Either it should be viable to stay in the flamethrower – thus the flamejet should be a bit stronger – or the trait itself should be changed in something that doesn’t require you to stay in the kit (like giving a larger amount of stacks with an higher internal cooldown).

Phineas Poe.3018:

Rifle Engineers can blind their targets every ten seconds, and can blind them again when struck by a melee attack. Never mind the fact that we have access to a three Smoke Fields between Smoke Bomb, Smoke Screen (Flame Turret), and Toss Elixir U.

And then there’s Smoke Vent and Flash Grenade.

Thieves can blind everytime they stealth with an adept major trait. Rangers can get 50% endurance regeneration with 5 points (and even get protection after a dodge with the minor master trait of that same tree). And those fully depend on the player, unlike our acidic coating (that requires you to be hit to begin with, and even then it is a chance) or don’t require a specific weapon (like the rifle one).
Even if we can get a sort of perma-vigor, that requires us to use almost a third of our points and to use kits, so it still shoehorn us versus using certain utilities and in a constant kit swap (just to maintain swiftness and thus vigor).
Also, for the most part, their evasive skills are embedded in the weapons themselves, thus giving them more versatility in the defensive compartment (and being able to swap them, they also have access to multiple sets of them). The thief itself just requires initiative to use them and they’ve got quite many possibilities to speed it up (both with stealth and weapon swaps, for example).
Ours are for the most part fragmented into the different utilities – thus either we get those specific ones – again in contrast with our supposed versatility – or we miss out on the defensive compartment at all. And there is still another matter…

Phineas Poe.3018:

But why does this comparison matter, anyway? We are one of the best bunker classes in the game, so we clearly don’t need more evades. And we obviously don’t need heavy armor either.

…that is, all of this talk is about PvP. All the game is balanced toward PvP. And therein is the problem: the game works differently in PvE. Our survivability is balanced toward us using those CC skills for defending ourself, yet the PvE part introduces defiant stacks that conflict with that purpose.
It basically neutralizes a good part of our defensive capabilities.
Unlike evades and blind, that can’t be neutralized as far as PvE goes.
And in WvsW we’re totally ignored as a whole.

Phineas Poe.3018:

OP dislikes kits, dislikes medium armor, feels abandoned—I think he’s better off just re-rolling a different class. And I think you need to take a few moments and re-examine our capabilities before replying to this post. Because we have no need for any built-in evades, we blind just as good as any other class, and the Bomb Kit and Grenade Kit both have very little if any drawbacks. They’re just a play style different from yours.

I’m not even sure you’re still replying to me, but i’ll reply anyway.
We shouldn’t be forced to use kits to start with, and neither we should be penalized as we are for being able to get them – as far as the class design goes, our dps with the main weapon is reduced due to kits and as far as i know we lack a second weapon slot for that same reason, even if we haven’t got any kit for free and we still have to spend utility slot for them, basically forcing us to take at least one to make up for the penalities we would get anyway.
We can’t evade, a part of our defense -CC- doesn’t even work as supposed in PvE and we need to spec either via traits or utilities to get those blinds – whereas the other adventurer classes get either blinds or evades with just their weapon sets and can get some more speccing, making them quite more versatile than us in that regard.
Also, you are seriously belittling the drawbacks of our kits – grenades are our only 1500 range weapon and it needs an heavy investment to even do so, and if even then you can’t reliably hit nicely at that range, then it isn’t that useful as far as a long-range weapon go. And while the bombs delay is a small issue in PvE, staying at melee range versus bosses to sustain that damage – we have no burst damage with them after all – isn’t exactly beneficial for our health (especially since we lack reliable and active means of getting protection (and the reactive ones don’t really work in PvE; also, we shouldn’t spend all the traits just to make up for the drawbacks – again, it hampers with our supposed versatility).
Imho, you’re far too optimistic regarding the class and see us with rose-tinted glasses, to speak frankly.

@Manuhell
What you have going is “An unstoppable force meets an immovable object”. So I’m pretty happy Phineas Poe is not a dev (since he and others like him keep saying FT as a weapon set is OK when it’s NOT)

So I’ll end with FT is better than before, but still not GOOD.

@topic
How bout they just introduce plate-ish leather since there is already leather-ish plate (pit fighter exotic)

Manuhell.2759:

Also, you are seriously belittling the drawbacks of our kits – grenades are our only 1500 range weapon.

Exactly how many 1500 range weapons do we need? Do you understand how rare that is? Rangers have to trait for it too. Eagle Eye is a 20-point trait in the Marksmanship tree, though it’s obviously not as powerful as Grenadier is, anyway.

Manuhell.2759:

And while the bombs delay is a small issue in PvE, staying at melee range versus bosses to sustain that damage – we have no burst damage with them after all – isn’t exactly beneficial for our health (especially since we lack reliable and active means of getting protection (and the reactive ones don’t really work in PvE; also, we shouldn’t spend all the traits just to make up for the drawbacks – again, it hampers with our supposed versatility).

Warriors don’t have reliable and active means of getting Protection either, and I stand in melee for 99% of PvE with full Berserker gear on mine. And he doesn’t have permanent Vigor like my Engineer does, so the armor and HP differential balances out.

My Flamethrower has 425 range, but I usually stand at 100 or so, so that I can immediately swap out to my Rifle, Blunderbuss, and swap back for maximum damage potential.

You’re supposed to be getting Protection from Guardians, anyway, which is why people bring them in the first place. If there’s only one Guard in the group, they should be using the Hammer with Writ of Persistence. This is like Dungeon Running 101.

Manuhell.2759:

Imho, you’re far too optimistic regarding the class and see us with rose-tinted glasses, to speak frankly.

And what am I optimistic about? I’m simply being realistic.

The Engineer doesn’t need heavy armor, and the only assertions that indicate that we “need” it only cite the wiki saying that at one point in time in the Engineer’s development it once had it.

I don’t see how this makes me the optimist so much as you the pessimist. I’m enjoying the game, enjoying the class, and enjoying my build. You can sit here and wallow in self-pity about how we don’t have everything every other class has if you want, but I’m not. And I don’t see how I’m somehow at fault for that.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Exactly how many 1500 range weapons do we need? Do you understand how rare that is? Rangers have to trait for it too. Eagle Eye is a 20-point trait in the Marksmanship tree, though it’s obviously not as powerful as Grenadier is, anyway.

One that consistently hits at that range, seeing as we’ve got to specifically trait for it.
Guess i’ll simply repost that entire paragraph, cause you’re willfully ignoring the other parts:

Manuhell.2759:

[…]grenades are our only 1500 range weapon and it needs an heavy investment to even do so, and if even then you can’t reliably hit nicely at that range, then it isn’t that useful as far as a long-range weapon go.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Warriors don’t have reliable and active means of getting Protection either, and I stand in melee for 99% of PvE with full Berserker gear on mine. And he doesn’t have permanent Vigor like my Engineer does, so the armor and HP differential balances out.

But neither they need to stay close to the enemy all the time to sustain their dps – they’ve got burst damage. Unlike us.
And even then they’ve still got better armor and hp.
Also they’ve still got means to get that vigor (the warhorn is a fine example: even untraited and without boon duration it gives 50% uptime to both him and allies). Obviously you’ve got to give up something else – we’ve got to spend 20 points for that vigor for example – but the choice is there.

Phineas Poe.3018:

My Flamethrower has 425 range, but I usually stand at 100 or so, so that I can immediately swap out to my Rifle, Blunderbuss, and swap back for maximum damage potential.

Feel free to do that, it could also work wonders. But i also explained why the juggernaut trait is inconsistent with this use, even if you didn’t reply at that specific paragraph.

You’re supposed to be getting Protection from Guardians, anyway, which is why people bring them in the first place. If there’s only one Guard in the group, they should be using the Hammer with Writ of Persistence. This is like Dungeon Running 101.

Oh, didn’t know that they were mandatory in a party. I still thought we were supposed to play as we want, no trinity, no fixed roles, such things. Oh silly me.
So we are fine in that regard cause someone else can give us protection, seems logical.
I suppose that if they remove healing altogether from the guardians they’ll be fine as well, they can use my medkits for healing themselves after all.

Phineas Poe.3018:

And what am I optimistic about? I’m simply being realistic.

The Engineer doesn’t need heavy armor, and the only assertions that indicate that we “need” it only cite the wiki saying that at one point in time in the Engineer’s development it once had it.

I don’t see how this makes me the optimist so much as you the pessimist. I’m enjoying the game, enjoying the class, and enjoying my build. You can sit here and wallow in self-pity about how we don’t have everything every other class has if you want, but I’m not. And I don’t see how I’m somehow at fault for that.

Oh, i don’t exactly hide that i’m quite a pessimist, but i don’t see that as a problem; rather, i’m just better at pointing out the flaws in the class, cause i also take in account the worst cases instead on focusing only on when they can work well -something you do, and that isn’t realistic at all.
Because the best case rarely happens, if never (like with the supposed perma-protection with protection injection, whose uptime is based on being disabled every 5 seconds to be able to maintain it).
Also, whereas i argument about flaws and inconsistencies, you either skip them or reply just to parts of them to make them seem flawed – like with the grenades above, or all the parts regarding flamethrower and juggernaut. Or the whole comparison to the baseline defensive compartment of the medium classes.

It seems that more than really argument, you just want to force your point, avoiding any discussion or part of it that proves you wrong. You are free to do that, but i will rather bail-out. I won’t spend my time by writing walls of text that will be ignored for the most part.

Arkham Creed.7358:

timidobserver.7925:

I agree with this thread. I can’t really see any issue with putting Engis in heavy armor.

How about the fact that it makes no sense conceptually or thematically?

Seriously, when was the last time you saw a mechanic clocking into work in full plate armor? Or a computer tech in chain mail?

I don’t really care about themes and rp carebear stuff. I am sure that Anet could find some way to explain an engineer coming up with a way to buff up their armor capability if they decided to go that way.

just add a trait (cough armor mods) that makes up the difference in defense between medium and heavy, no need to worry about skins or anything.

Or just remove the FT requirement on juggernaut.

timidobserver.7925:

Arkham Creed.7358:

timidobserver.7925:

I agree with this thread. I can’t really see any issue with putting Engis in heavy armor.

How about the fact that it makes no sense conceptually or thematically?

Seriously, when was the last time you saw a mechanic clocking into work in full plate armor? Or a computer tech in chain mail?

I don’t really care about themes and rp carebear stuff. I am sure that Anet could find some way to explain an engineer coming up with a way to buff up their armor capability if they decided to go that way.

I just love how to the “hardcore” player anything except the mind-numbingly easy and no-skill-required content of “replay this exact instance a hundred times while spamming the exact rotation you found on a wiki for three months until luck gets you a cool reward” somehow becomes “carebear.”

It’s a hilarious bit of hypocrisy; you guys run your mouths off about challenge when what you really want is content built around base systems (like the trinity) so dirt-stupid a four year old could figure them out, and that you can min/max to the point of being automatic. Then you use the plug-ins to do the speed running for you while waiting on RNG to give you more powerful gear so you can show off to new players while pretending to be hardcore to the point of even convincing yourselves that lie is somehow true.

Pro Tip: The most well geared and famous WoW player didn’t earn any of his fancy stuff; he farmed an instance until it dropped. That isn’t “hardcore,” it’s mindlessly doing the same thing over and over until the game just hands you something shiny. It’s carebear.

condition bunker engineer….. Nuff said, and you want to give them heavy armor? I play a condition mesmer myself and survivability, burst damage and sustain damage are all lower as condition bunker engineer in 1v1. If I win it’s on skill level, because both classes are hard to play. I will not go in more detail, but learn you class before you say you lack survivability.

Manuhell.2759:

One that consistently hits at that range, seeing as we’ve got to specifically trait for it.
Guess i’ll simply repost that entire paragraph, cause you’re willfully ignoring the other parts:

Manuhell.2759:

[…]grenades are our only 1500 range weapon and it needs an heavy investment to even do so, and if even then you can’t reliably hit nicely at that range, then it isn’t that useful as far as a long-range weapon go.

I’m sorry, but this thread is not about the Grenade Kit or how much you hate it. If you want to continue talking about this, then we’ll take it to another thread.

Manuhell.2759:

Phineas Poe.3018:

Warriors don’t have reliable and active means of getting Protection either, and I stand in melee for 99% of PvE with full Berserker gear on mine. And he doesn’t have permanent Vigor like my Engineer does, so the armor and HP differential balances out.

But neither they need to stay close to the enemy all the time to sustain their dps – they’ve got burst damage. Unlike us.
And even then they’ve still got better armor and hp.
Also they’ve still got means to get that vigor (the warhorn is a fine example: even untraited and without boon duration it gives 50% uptime to both him and allies). Obviously you’ve got to give up something else – we’ve got to spend 20 points for that vigor for example – but the choice is there.

Actually, a Warrior DOES need to stay close to the enemy all the time to sustain their DPS. They don’t have a 4000+ DPS weapon that has 1500 range like we do.

People always moan about how much armor and health Warriors have, but they very rarely ever take the moment to recognize that the Warrior has some of the worst sustain of all classes in the game. They pretty much have nothing to keep themselves alive except for their healing skill, which are totally outclassed by pretty much every option Engineers have, who can additionally take their Elixir Gun and can self-revive themselves with Toss Elixir R, never mind the fact that we have access to Water fields and several Blast finishers in pretty much any build construction.

And let’s think more clearly about your situation. A Warrior has to bring his Warhorn to get 50% upkeep of Vigor. An Engineer just has to crit with anything or swap to a kit to get 100% upkeep of Vigor.

Explain to me how we’re the worse off here? If you don’t like using kits, or if you cannot handle speccing 20 points into two trees pretty much every Engi build under the sun utilizes, then I cannot help you. As someone that has both classes to 80 and plays them each frequently, I will say 10 times out of 10 that the Engineer has it easier getting Vigor. I don’t even have to think about it. I just have it all the time, similar to my Guardian.

Manuhell.2759:

Phineas Poe.3018:

My Flamethrower has 425 range, but I usually stand at 100 or so, so that I can immediately swap out to my Rifle, Blunderbuss, and swap back for maximum damage potential.

Feel free to do that, it could also work wonders. But i also explained why the juggernaut trait is inconsistent with this use, even if you didn’t reply at that specific paragraph.

I didn’t reply to it because I already told you: If you want to discuss the finer details of things like Juggernaut and the Flamethrower, I would be happy to—in the proper thread. This is not a thread about your issues with the Flamethrower any more than it is about your problems with the Grenade Kit.

Manuhell.2759:

Phineas Poe.3018:

You’re supposed to be getting Protection from Guardians, anyway, which is why people bring them in the first place. If there’s only one Guard in the group, they should be using the Hammer with Writ of Persistence. This is like Dungeon Running 101.

Oh, didn’t know that they were mandatory in a party. I still thought we were supposed to play as we want, no trinity, no fixed roles, such things. Oh silly me.
So we are fine in that regard cause someone else can give us protection, seems logical.
I suppose that if they remove healing altogether from the guardians they’ll be fine as well, they can use my medkits for healing themselves after all.

Anyone who has a Fractal ever once in their life knows how integral Guardians are to a comfortable run. They aren’t required, of course. I’ve run more than my share of dungeons and fractals without my Guardian, and with no other Guardians in the group. But you cannot seriously deny that a Guardian’s abundant access to defensive boons/buffs like Wall of Reflection, Shield of the Avenger, Stand Your Ground, Hold The Line, Retreat, Tome of Courage, etc. etc. etc. don’t play into the meta or why Guardians are one of the most sought-after classes in every facet of the game.

Not my fault that ArenaNet went back on their word, but at least this game doesn’t have dedicated healers, which is enough for me.

Manuhell.2759:

Phineas Poe.3018:

And what am I optimistic about? I’m simply being realistic.

The Engineer doesn’t need heavy armor, and the only assertions that indicate that we “need” it only cite the wiki saying that at one point in time in the Engineer’s development it once had it.

I don’t see how this makes me the optimist so much as you the pessimist. I’m enjoying the game, enjoying the class, and enjoying my build. You can sit here and wallow in self-pity about how we don’t have everything every other class has if you want, but I’m not. And I don’t see how I’m somehow at fault for that.

Oh, i don’t exactly hide that i’m quite a pessimist, but i don’t see that as a problem; rather, i’m just better at pointing out the flaws in the class, cause i also take in account the worst cases instead on focusing only on when they can work well -something you do, and that isn’t realistic at all.
Because the best case rarely happens, if never (like with the supposed perma-protection with protection injection, whose uptime is based on being disabled every 5 seconds to be able to maintain it).
Also, whereas i argument about flaws and inconsistencies, you either skip them or reply just to parts of them to make them seem flawed – like with the grenades above, or all the parts regarding flamethrower and juggernaut. Or the whole comparison to the baseline defensive compartment of the medium classes.

It seems that more than really argument, you just want to force your point, avoiding any discussion or part of it that proves you wrong. You are free to do that, but i will rather bail-out. I won’t spend my time by writing walls of text that will be ignored for the most part.

I “skipped” those elements because last I checked this thread was about the Engineer being a medium armor class—and that it should be a heavy. Your “flaws and inconsistencies” are noted, but I don’t believe there’s any written rule that I have to read and respond to every single point you make, especially when they come with warning labels, where you even admit to writing “walls of text.”

I believe there is no rule, either, that I have to take anything you say under advisement, or that I should really care whether you think I am “wrong” or not. If you think I am: OK. Congratulations. You’re allowed to have your opinion.

My loyalties to the Flamethrower are pretty obvious, though I don’t think I’ve ever been nebulous about my reasons. I have taken considerable time out of my life begrudgingly dealing with every complaint about it, trying to re-think the community’s perspective on the kit, putting a lot of effort into authoring a Guru thread and creating a guide to be the most comprehensive regarding the kit. I’m not sure how much I have succeeded in this endeavor, but I can say I’ve rarely “avoided” discussion on that matter so much as put myself in the middle of it.

Most importantly: I’m not “forcing” anything on you. You responded to me in a post that was addressed to someone else. If you dislike the way in which I approach your posts, then you’re free to not quote and respond to messages that were originally written for someone else.

Arkham Creed.7358:

timidobserver.7925:

Arkham Creed.7358:

timidobserver.7925:

I agree with this thread. I can’t really see any issue with putting Engis in heavy armor.

How about the fact that it makes no sense conceptually or thematically?

Seriously, when was the last time you saw a mechanic clocking into work in full plate armor? Or a computer tech in chain mail?

I don’t really care about themes and rp carebear stuff. I am sure that Anet could find some way to explain an engineer coming up with a way to buff up their armor capability if they decided to go that way.

I just love how to the “hardcore” player anything except the mind-numbingly easy and no-skill-required content of “replay this exact instance a hundred times while spamming the exact rotation you found on a wiki for three months until luck gets you a cool reward” somehow becomes “carebear.”

He was referring to “rp carebear” stuff (rp as in ROLE PLAY). In that regard, this

How about the fact that it makes no sense conceptually or thematically?

Seriously, when was the last time you saw a mechanic clocking into work in full plate armor? Or a computer tech in chain mail?

is what makes an rp carebear.

On a side note, is there any gear NOW that is medium but looks heavy?

Seetoo.9316:

On a side note, is there any gear NOW that is medium but looks heavy?

Basically no; each armor class is intended to have a distinct look to it, so while there may be a little bit of overlap, there won’t be any sets that cross that line. I agree that we currently have a few too many heavy coats in our lineup, you’re not going to see much in the way of metal plates.

That said, the only armor that leaps to mind as kind of being a little bit heavy-ish is the new Magitech set, simply because it has a lot of metal to it, but it is still very much a leather coat.

EDIT: No; I didn’t keep those colors. I was just playing around with the PvP locker.

The Sorrow’s Embrace armor looks a bit on the Heavy side. I initially thought Centurion Gearclaw in Charr starting area was wearing Heavy armor, but he’s just wearing Sorrow’s Embrace gear.

Arkham Creed.7358:

Anymras.5729:

Also, you still haven’t said why this is such an alarming idea that you’ve deigned to waste your time responding to a pointless thread. I’m still curious.

Because, frankly, Arena Net has done ridiculously stupid and unfavorably received things before on the whims of the “vocal minority,” so I wouldn’t put it past them to do something else ridiculously stupid and unfavorable because of one “pointless” thread. To be honest while I continue to trust Arena Net’s intent with the game, the philosophy that inspired me to buy it in the first place, I do not trust Arena Net to be able to properly distinguish between what the core community actually want, and what is desired by a handful of forum crybabies that were never part of the target audience to begin with.

Call me elitist or entitled if you want to, but as someone who has been with the Guild Wars series for years, spent hundreds of dollars on in-game goods and officially licensed peripherals, pre-purchased Guild Wars 2 (not just a dime-a-dozen pre-order like new games always get), and who embraced and defended some of their crazier pre-release ideas (like no gear progression, no end-game, and no trinity), I feel like my opinions and desires should be held above those of some random former WoW player who is only here because Total Biscuit made a few videos. Heck, without players like me there wouldn’t be a Guild Wars 2. But thus far Arena Net, or perhaps NC Soft, seem to be making it more and more of a habit to completely ignore the people that allowed Arena Net to become something other than just another failed MMO company and instead pander to the masses that a large number of those core fans came to Guild Wars to get away from.

And before you reply; no I wasn’t calling you a WoW fanboy. I don’t know your history with this series or that one, and I’m not speaking about you with that paragraph. But my point stands; someone on the development or publishing side of this game got blinded by the (false) hope of WoW dollars and turned their backs on the players that made them anything to begin with. So as much as I hate ideas and threads like this, it wouldn’t surprise me at all for Arena Net to do it. As to why I keep posting, well, at the very least I want my objection on record, even if no one that matters will read it.

As someone who is an avid supporter of the original Guild Wars, I gave Anet the benefit of doubt for their ideas for GW2 (and what happened to that lol) but if you supported the changes made in GW2, there is no more weight your option should have than the mentioned WoW fanboy. Guild Wars 2 is Anet’s shot at WoW, otherwise it would be an actual sequel to GW1.

But moving on topic, yes to heavy armor, who cares about aesthetics? Those that do will work just as hard again to get the new elite heavy armors, those who don’t will be saving time like usual.

Chairman Wang.5930:

Arkham Creed.7358:

Anymras.5729:

Also, you still haven’t said why this is such an alarming idea that you’ve deigned to waste your time responding to a pointless thread. I’m still curious.

Because, frankly, Arena Net has done ridiculously stupid and unfavorably received things before on the whims of the “vocal minority,” so I wouldn’t put it past them to do something else ridiculously stupid and unfavorable because of one “pointless” thread. To be honest while I continue to trust Arena Net’s intent with the game, the philosophy that inspired me to buy it in the first place, I do not trust Arena Net to be able to properly distinguish between what the core community actually want, and what is desired by a handful of forum crybabies that were never part of the target audience to begin with.

Call me elitist or entitled if you want to, but as someone who has been with the Guild Wars series for years, spent hundreds of dollars on in-game goods and officially licensed peripherals, pre-purchased Guild Wars 2 (not just a dime-a-dozen pre-order like new games always get), and who embraced and defended some of their crazier pre-release ideas (like no gear progression, no end-game, and no trinity), I feel like my opinions and desires should be held above those of some random former WoW player who is only here because Total Biscuit made a few videos. Heck, without players like me there wouldn’t be a Guild Wars 2. But thus far Arena Net, or perhaps NC Soft, seem to be making it more and more of a habit to completely ignore the people that allowed Arena Net to become something other than just another failed MMO company and instead pander to the masses that a large number of those core fans came to Guild Wars to get away from.

And before you reply; no I wasn’t calling you a WoW fanboy. I don’t know your history with this series or that one, and I’m not speaking about you with that paragraph. But my point stands; someone on the development or publishing side of this game got blinded by the (false) hope of WoW dollars and turned their backs on the players that made them anything to begin with. So as much as I hate ideas and threads like this, it wouldn’t surprise me at all for Arena Net to do it. As to why I keep posting, well, at the very least I want my objection on record, even if no one that matters will read it.

As someone who is an avid supporter of the original Guild Wars, I gave Anet the benefit of doubt for their ideas for GW2 (and what happened to that lol) but if you supported the changes made in GW2, there is no more weight your option should have than the mentioned WoW fanboy. Guild Wars 2 is Anet’s shot at WoW, otherwise it would be an actual sequel to GW1.

But moving on topic, yes to heavy armor, who cares about aesthetics? Those that do will work just as hard again to get the new elite heavy armors, those who don’t will be saving time like usual.

As, of all people, WoWcrendor once put it; you didn’t want a squeal, you wanted an expansion.

Squeals are not supposed to be the exact same thing as what came before, and really aren’t even direct continuations unless planned from the start. A squeal is a chance to try something new, experiment with new ideas, and take things in a new direction. And while I agree that Guild Wars 2 failed to live up to all my expectations, I disagree that liking it is somehow a betrayal of the series. If anything you’re stubborn refusal to accept this game as its own thing means that your opinion counts less, not mine.

The one expectation I had for Guild Wars 2 that it absolutely lived up to?

This will be Guild Wars 2. Not Guild Wars 2.0.

If you fail to understand the difference, then you probably should just stick with expansions.