Guild Wars 2

Phineas Poe.3018:

lLobo.7960:

Kits are the thing to cover the lack of weapon swap.

This line of thinking is parroted often, but where has this actually been stated by ArenaNet?

Whenever I try to change to my second weapon I end changing to a kit instead. Also, whenever I try to equip a kit in other professions I can’t do it…

Its very clear to me. Or you really think this wasn’t intended?

I think engi should get extra kits even without the e-specs like ranger got new pets

Ok, sure, we have kits, but guys, kits could be more unique than what they are, they are just weapons with skills that dont fit or make sense in a weapon, so they made kits, taking utilities slots.

I’m ok they have the weapon feeling, but why they have to act 100% as one? think it about it, why not delete the aa in kits and make them a full set of skills, now thats a kit.

Why not add a passive mechanic when having kits, for example, kits upgrade our toolbelts, modyfing all the toolbelts with an extra effect thematically modified depending of what kit you have, if you use that effect, you lose access to a kit skill until the toolbelt is recharged (Example, you use toolbelt 4, so your skill 4 in that weapon is disabled until the toolbelt is off cooldown).

Or, we could just punish kits for being so good and delete their toolbelt access, sounds so wrong, but thematically, we have access to 5 skills, why have an extra skill, for beat the dead horses that our other skills are?.

Anyway, in summary, kits should have a specific thematic when using them, not just a weapon identity and thats it, they should do something more special than just acting as a weapon, they are taking spaces in our utilities after all.

Ivantreil.3092:

Ok, sure, we have kits, but guys, kits could be more unique than what they are, they are just weapons with skills that dont fit or make sense in a weapon, so they made kits, taking utilities slots.

The idea to have kits as weapons is because the engineer don’t use normal weapons, like swords and daggers. They use inventions like bombs and flamethrowers.

I honestly would love if we got new kit instead of a new weapon with the elite spec. I rather get a Gatling gun than a to use a mace on my engi.

Ivantreil.3092:

I’m ok they have the weapon feeling, but why they have to act 100% as one? think it about it, why not delete the aa in kits and make them a full set of skills, now thats a kit.

Yes they do need to act as weapons because they are there mostly to cover for our weapons deficiencies. AoE auto attacks, long range, melee, etc…

Ivantreil.3092:

Anyway, in summary, kits should have a specific thematic when using them, not just a weapon identity and thats it, they should do something more special than just acting as a weapon, they are taking spaces in our utilities after all.

They do! They give us the options to play in different ways.
FT gives you the option of fast hitting frontal cone attacks and tons of burns. Great for fast procs of on hit/crit.
Bombs provide solid PBAoE and soft CC (immob/cripple/blind) and some condi pressure on.
Nades is a great ranged AoE and can be traited for good condi dmg with procs from on hit/crit traits/sigils due to high hit rate.
Toolkit gives good defense and soft/hard CC. Too bad the AA is not good enough and turrets are not worth repairing
Elixir gun is a great support weapon with an AA that provides a much underrated weakness (in pvp)
Med kit is just crap…

That is where the versatility of engie comes from!
The reason why you take so many kits in PvE (and only on the condi meta build) is because you just want dmg.
As soon as you need utility or defense you take other things, like elixirs or some of the gadgets that are not completely crap (slick shoes was great for a while, rocket boots are still quite useful and ram is not a bad option for breakbar dmg)

The problem is not that kits are too good, is just that most gadgets are subpar on their utility, elixirs have too long CD, turrets are not worth keeping around, and above all…
PvE is all about dps.

I think removing the kits toolbelt skill is a better idea than adding a CD to them. It also frees the toolbelt to do other things, and could, if properly implemented, give some balance to the contest between kits and everything else.

Ardid.7203:

Phineas Poe.3018:

lLobo.7960:

Kits are the thing to cover the lack of weapon swap.

This line of thinking is parroted often, but where has this actually been stated by ArenaNet?

Whenever I try to change to my second weapon I end changing to a kit instead. Also, whenever I try to equip a kit in other professions I can’t do it…

Its very clear to me. Or you really think this wasn’t intended?

Banners work just the same was as you describe. Does that make them the warrior’s profession mechanic?

Did they make the warrior’s second weapon dissapear?

bearshaman.3421:

Personally I prefer getting new types of utility skills, leave toolbelt as the class mechanic, and diversify and rebalance things so we have more build diversity beyond “load all the kits and the healing turret”.

You do realize those kits constitute the majority of our damage, right?

Kenshi Maru.5489:

I didn’t read everything but what I have to say is:

The reason Scrapper added no Kits to the game is that when ANet was developing the elite they asked the community what they wanted from the class and they said: “Something that doesn’t use kits because we’re sick of using all 4 of them”.

So we got it. An elite spec that uses no kits. Only it also doesn’t use virtually anything else from the core class… or plays like it… >.>

and what part of the community was wanting more jacky ai skills?

Regardless of what we get or ask, and talking for pve, full kits will never drop meta as long as they have a single valuable dps skill to play, i mean, flamethrower was valuable back then only for napalm and the toolbelt, now we have 2 other dps skills that can be used (if needed).

And pre-hot, Elixir gun was in the meta build, guess for what, only for the acid bomb w/ canceled leap, only for that, not the utility, not the cleanse, not the heal, the dps of acid bomb, the rest off the kit skills only gave arguments for keep it over any other utility…

Same could say pre-hot ft, use Flame blast and swap.

Yes, we should get a new kit called the Med Kit which allows us to create auras of healing and condi cleanses for our teammates.

Ivantreil.3092:

Regardless of what we get or ask, and talking for pve, full kits will never drop meta as long as they have a single valuable dps skill to play, i mean, flamethrower was valuable back then only for napalm and the toolbelt, now we have 2 other dps skills that can be used (if needed).

And pre-hot, Elixir gun was in the meta build, guess for what, only for the acid bomb w/ canceled leap, only for that, not the utility, not the cleanse, not the heal, the dps of acid bomb, the rest off the kit skills only gave arguments for keep it over any other utility…

Same could say pre-hot ft, use Flame blast and swap.

Exactly. Kits are meta on pve because of dps.
If we get a weapon that have a better AA than kits, than swaping to kits will be a dps loss and meta builds wont use it.
Just like the bomb power build. Bomb AA is your dps, and you use utilities that have low CD toolbelt skils for extra dps (with SD) without leaving the bomb AA.

Utilities are not needed on “Meta comp” if they compromise dps (for someone on a dps role).
Slickshoes was meta when breakbars were “hard” and when the scrapper was tank (so already low dps to use defense), but that changed with the nerf and the rise of the chrono tank (alerady low dps but tons of support)

To be honest, I think kits are on a good spot now (except for medkit and the TK AA).
– You can use all of them for really high dps with a complex rotation, or
– you can use some for lower dps and simpler rotation…

Ardid.7203:

Did they make the warrior’s second weapon dissapear?

No, but that’s because warriors only have one function key while we have five.

Point is, classes like elementalist and warrior (and even for a time guardian with tomes) are littered with skills that replace their entire weapon set. The only difference between conjured weapons and banners from kits is that they have cooldowns—but this is balanced in accordance to their given strengths.

There is literally zero indication anywhere that I can find that suggests we lost our weapon swap solely because of kits, and there is absolutely nothing stopping them from adding kits to other professions in the future.

So if not kits, why then? Perhaps because of our toolbelt? Perhaps to maintain flavor variety between professions? For example: why does warrior get to trait into a five second weapon swap when no one else does? Or: why does thief have initiative? When Guild Wars 2 launched no one was concerned about dealing unrivaled DPS or playing the most skill-dependent profession, so the fact that the pistol and rifle were weak wasn’t even on anyone’s radar. That naturally sorted itself out later as the game aged.

I mean, what if maybe it’s just because the profession launched with only two main-hand weapons, one condition and one power, and there’s literally nothing they have in common with each other that warranted the ability to swap between them? That’s as good a guess as any.

I mean really looking at things right now, would you realistically gain anything by being able to swap between the pistol and rifle, or between off-hand pistol and shield? Would such changes in any way influence the PvE or PvP meta?

Either way, guessing is all that we have right now unless someone is willing to actually pull up a post/article/statement by ArenaNet that shows kits are the reason we have no weapon swap, or if a dev is willing to officially comment on the matter themselves.

Just to reiterate: I’m sure kits do play some part in balancing the profession, just in the same sense that banners, spirits, and signets play a role in balancing other professions. But that doesn’t make any of them profession mechanics, and it definitely doesn’t mean we can’t see weapon swap being added down the road either.

Remember that the revenant originally didn’t come with weapon swap either.

IMO the access to multiple, useful skills as a criteria for the access to weapon swap can’t be denied.

That’s the reason Eles don’t have weapon swap, and that’s the reason Revs originaly weren’t meant to have one.

Rev did received weapon swap finally, not because they were designed for that, but DESPITE they were designed in a different way. Devs simply couldn’t balance the profession better with the short time they had, so they choose a compromise.

So, the original intention WAS there. It is still there, just a little skewed: every armor tier should have a profession without weapon swap, with easy access to a LOT of meaningful skills to compensate.

It doesn’t matter if they are Kits, Attunements or Legends: the original intent was to define “piano” professions with many skills but without weapon swap.

You can name banners, spirit weapons, environmental bundles or even elite transforms all you want: they aren’t the same. They aren’t designed to provide multiple sets of skills you switch around coming and going in mere instants. They aren’t balanced to continuously replace weapon skills.

Honestly, I think we have completely derailed the topic…

Engineer is a unique class, the kits give it unique weapons, like granades, bombs and flamethrowers.

If we don’t get new kits, we will be getting swords, sticks, daggers, and all the archaic weapons other simpletons use.

If the profession gets more kits, we get to use more advance weaponry, like machine guns, lasers, wrist blasters, rocket launchers…

I don’t want to shoot rockets out of a greatsword, I want a actual rocket launcher set upon my shoulders. (I was going to post an image, but when the image search popped on the screen I realized it might raise questions from co-workers, so use your imagination, or google).

So, if the only way we get new skills is by new ESpecs, then I hope we get new kits with them for unique weapon skills.

After reading all the opinions and data, I only can agree with you, ILobo. Kits aren’t just a very relevant part of the gameplay of our profession. They are also an amazing part of our lore, fluff and fun. Anet can’t just leave them aside because they are complex to balance.

IMO they should add a new kit with every new elite spec. Ideally along a new weapon, but if not possible, I truly prefer a new kit than a new weapon.

The best way I see right now to balance the kits and allow this growth without overwhelming every other skill is to simply take the kits out of the skill bar, and alocate them on the toolbelt. Sure, we would lose the toolbelt skills from kits, but IMO that is a reasonable price to pay for variety and a better balance. In exchange, we will win free spaces in the utility bar for gadgets, elixirs, etc.

Ardid.7203:

After reading all the opinions and data, I only can agree with you, ILobo. Kits aren’t just a very relevant part of the gameplay of our profession. They are also an amazing part of our lore, fluff and fun. Anet can’t just leave them aside because they are complex to balance.

IMO they should add a new kit with every new elite spec. Ideally along a new weapon, but if not possible, I truly prefer a new kit than a new weapon.

The best way I see right now to balance the kits and allow this growth without overwhelming every other skill is to simply take the kits out of the skill bar, and alocate them on the toolbelt. Sure, we would lose the toolbelt skills from kits, but IMO that is a reasonable price to pay for variety and a better balance. In exchange, we will win free spaces in the utility bar for gadgets, elixirs, etc.

Prob The best way imo, i dont think nobody would miss grenade barrage or incendiary ammo at exchange of more utility variety, along with keeping our kits in game all the time.

Ardid.7203:

After reading all the opinions and data, I only can agree with you, ILobo. Kits aren’t just a very relevant part of the gameplay of our profession. They are also an amazing part of our lore, fluff and fun. Anet can’t just leave them aside because they are complex to balance.

IMO they should add a new kit with every new elite spec. Ideally along a new weapon, but if not possible, I truly prefer a new kit than a new weapon.

The best way I see right now to balance the kits and allow this growth without overwhelming every other skill is to simply take the kits out of the skill bar, and alocate them on the toolbelt. Sure, we would lose the toolbelt skills from kits, but IMO that is a reasonable price to pay for variety and a better balance. In exchange, we will win free spaces in the utility bar for gadgets, elixirs, etc.

The problem with placing the kits in the toolbelt is that it would make us just a remake of eles…
The whole thing with kits is that you need to make a choice of a new weapon (kits) or utility (gadgets/elixirs).

The concept is good, the problem is that PvE doenst really need any utility the engi can bring with gadgets, turrets have no real purpose besides their toolbelt skill and elixirs have too much of a CD.

For example:
– If rocket boots was an aimed jump, and provided evade frames, it would be a valid option on current dps builds, as it would offer a reliable evade (that doesnt send you out of the fight and most likely off the boss platform) while you can still use the toolbelt skill to retain some burn/burst. So you could, in certain fights where an extra evade would help you, swap bombs for it without loosing too much dps.
– If slickshoes was still good against breakbars, you could probably trade a bit of dps if your group is lacking on the CC…

I’v thought about that, and I don’t think we could ever be really similar to Eles, even if kits are in the toolbelt, AS LONG as they remain balanced around insta-swap. Skills would always be less powerful but quicker to use than ele ones.

IMO, right now most toolbelt skills are equally useful as the utility skills (save for kits, which always win). So exchanging a kit for a toolbelt skill is a very similar choice to exchange a kit for an utility. In fact, since today kits ALSO give you a toolbelt skill, the choice would become even MORE meaningful than today, if kits only were present as toolbelt skills.

Today: 1 utility + 1 toolbelt (2 skills total) vs 1 kit +1 toolbelt (6 skills total).
Toolbelt kit: 1 utility + 1 toolbelt (2 skills total) vs 1 kit – 1 toolbelt (4 skills total).

Phineas Poe.3018:

…kits aren’t an ingrained, core aspect of the profession. They’re certainly powerful utilities, and just like warrior banners and guardian consecrations, they get an inordinate amount of attention compared to other options, but that doesn’t make them a core mechanic—and there’s nothing stopping ArenaNet from releasing kits on another profession in the next expansion, or putting banners in engineer.

lLobo.7960:

Classes are not limited to one, and only one, mechanic. Thieves have steal and initiative, revs have legend swap and energy… Some class mechanics are spetial skills (f1-5) some are not…

You’re right that classes often have more than one “core” mechanic, and that sometimes relates to a managed resource like adrenaline/rage, astral power, energy, and initiative. Illusions, in fact, could arguably be both a core mechanic and a skill resource.

Engineer does, in fact, have more than one “core” profession mechanic, but it’s not kits; it’s the toolbelt and the function gyro. And this is what you’re not understanding.

The purpose of elite specializations is to add new, different things to the profession—or enhance existing core mechanics (e.g., rage or continuum split). So yes, rangers got new pets, warriors got new burst skills, and engineers got new toolbelt skills and the function gyro.

It’s also true that engineers don’t have a weapon swap, and it’s true that’s arguably because of kits, but that doesn’t mean that kits are a core profession mechanic, and it doesn’t mean that they can’t add a specialization down the road that locks us out of kits while granting us weapon swap.

I’ve read the entire thread and it surprises me that no one has brought up the glaringly obvious difference between Engineers’ utility compared to that of other classes.

Engineers (core) are literally the only (core) class that have 4 utility skill types and 5 non-elite skills per type. Every other class has 5 utility skill types and 4 non-elite skills per type.

This is the fundamental difference between an Engineer and every other class and why you cannot equate the Engineer’s utility with any other classes’ utility. We have literally ONE LESS UTILITY TYPE. And that is because we have an extra skill per type to make up for it. But I ask you this: why deviate from the formula of 5 types of utility and 4 skills per type that every other class adheres to?

Because, in the original design, we had 4 toolbelt slots, not 5. Our toolbelt was supposed to serve as the (quasi) 5th utility type and our alternate utility slots. Why the need for alternative utility slots? Because our 7-9 utility keys double as weapon swap. Because the engineer has access to 3 additional weapon slots, we are locked out of an alternate weapon. (See: elementalist and the attunement mechanic balance.) It is also the reason we have the fewest weapons. Our utilities are supposed to “make up” for our small weapon pool and in order to have the same access to actual utility, our toolbelt had 4 slots.

It is only with the NPE that we got the 5th toolbelt slot for balance reasons: because we got an elite kit now. However, I would like to remind everyone that despite this, in our utility skills list, we are still one skill type short compared to all other classes. You have to only look at the UI when selecting utilities for the engineer. Everyone else have their utilities grouped by type (all utilities of the same type are in the same row), the engineer does not. Why? Because one of our utilities (kits) are supposed to function as a weapon. Toolbelt compensates our utility loss.

TL;DR – Engineer utility is not mechanically equivalent to all other classes’ utility. (It is a false equivalency when the mechanics are clearly not the same.) Kits are a core class mechanic that happens to take up the utility slot, and the toolbelt is a compensation for our kit class mechanic.

This is what makes us weird and different. Furthermore, yes, our kits are the equivalent of weapons. That is why, to get back to the OP’s original point, we should be given a new kit per elite specialization. Every other class gets new weapons, we should be getting new kits.