Guild Wars 2

choovanski.5462:

I can 100-0 people with one grenade barrage and mortar was nerfed?

That’s the punch line.

lorddarkflare.9186:

This nerf is a good idea. The range:damage ration was unprecedented.

You must literally never have heard of Rangers. Literally.

lorddarkflare.9186:

This nerf is a good idea. The range:damage ration was unprecedented.

How is it that you think that? Before the nerf it did slightly less damage than grenade kit #1 attack (the same power based damage, but it puts out fewer conditions) while still being as slow and hard to hit people at 1500 range as grenade kit was. Now it does as much power damage as rifle AA, the only thing that makes it a little higher damage is the slight boost in damage it gets from “explosive powder” and “steel-packed powder.” Everyone that keeps saying it did all this damage aparently can’t add the damage from the 3 grenades in grenade #1. Before the nerf, in a full zerker build I was critting with the mortar #1 at between 3K and 5k max, I was hitting things on average for around 4k. That’s the same numbers I see with grenade #1 attack. Now, the highest crit I can get with mortar #1 is 2.5K to the occasional 3k. That’s the same as rifle AA

Now, the only reason to ever use mortar #1 is if I happen to need to hit something at range beyond 1000, because it’s literally now our only power based attack with a range beyond that.

Gern.2978:

lorddarkflare.9186:

This nerf is a good idea. The range:damage ration was unprecedented.

How is it that you think that? Before the nerf it did slightly less damage than grenade kit #1 attack (the same power based damage, but it puts out fewer conditions) while still being as slow and hard to hit people at 1500 range as grenade kit was. Now it does as much power damage as rifle AA, the only thing that makes it a little higher damage is the slight boost in damage it gets from “explosive powder” and “steel-packed powder.” Everyone that keeps saying it did all this damage aparently can’t add the damage from the 3 grenades in grenade #1. Before the nerf, in a full zerker build I was critting with the mortar #1 at between 3K and 5k max, I was hitting things on average for around 4k. That’s the same numbers I see with grenade #1 attack. Now, the highest crit I can get with mortar #1 is 2.5K to the occasional 3k. That’s the same as rifle AA

Now, the only reason to ever use mortar #1 is if I happen to need to hit something at range beyond 1000, because it’s literally now our only power based attack with a range beyond that.

none of this is true. you keep saying these things, with zero proof. all of which are clearly wrong.

1. before the nerf it did 10% more coeff( 1.05 or 1.1coeff, to grenades .99 all 3 hitting and combined), and 20% faster attack then grenades. .8s/a vs 1s/a.
2. now it does .8 power coeff (with a .8s/a speed), rifle 1 is .65.(with a .84s/a speed)
it does WAY more damage then rifle. It does more then grenades still… (marginally granted, so now the extra procs and vul do make grenades better as a short-mid range weapon.)
3. tooltip seems to show explosive damage buff, but actual damage is still not being effected by being an explosive.

Casia.4281:

Gern.2978:

lorddarkflare.9186:

This nerf is a good idea. The range:damage ration was unprecedented.

How is it that you think that? Before the nerf it did slightly less damage than grenade kit #1 attack (the same power based damage, but it puts out fewer conditions) while still being as slow and hard to hit people at 1500 range as grenade kit was. Now it does as much power damage as rifle AA, the only thing that makes it a little higher damage is the slight boost in damage it gets from “explosive powder” and “steel-packed powder.” Everyone that keeps saying it did all this damage aparently can’t add the damage from the 3 grenades in grenade #1. Before the nerf, in a full zerker build I was critting with the mortar #1 at between 3K and 5k max, I was hitting things on average for around 4k. That’s the same numbers I see with grenade #1 attack. Now, the highest crit I can get with mortar #1 is 2.5K to the occasional 3k. That’s the same as rifle AA

Now, the only reason to ever use mortar #1 is if I happen to need to hit something at range beyond 1000, because it’s literally now our only power based attack with a range beyond that.

none of this is true. you keep saying these things, with zero proof. all of which are clearly wrong.

1. before the nerf it did 10% more coeff( 1.05 or 1.1coeff, to grenades .99 all 3 hitting and combined), and 20% faster attack then grenades. .8s/a vs 1s/a.
2. now it does .8 power coeff (with a .8s/a speed), rifle 1 is .65.(with a .84s/a speed)
it does WAY more damage then rifle. It does more then grenades still… (marginally granted, so now the extra procs and vul do make grenades better as a short-mid range weapon.)
3. tooltip seems to show explosive damage buff, but actual damage is still not being effected by being an explosive.

Look, I’ll admit one thing: I don’t know what you are saying when you use terms like “coeff”, and throw around those numbers. I don’t know what they represent. I am basing my information on adding up the damage see when using both kits, something anyone else can do and come to the same conclusion. I do know one thing: comparing the speed of grenades without the grenadier trait, and the speed of mortar, the mortar projectile is in no way faster than grenades, especially at 1500 range. You don’t have to be a math wiz to see that.

Gern.2978:

Look, I’ll admit one thing: I don’t know what you are saying when you use terms like “coeff”, and throw around those numbers. I don’t know what they represent. I am basing my information on adding up the damage see when using both kits, something anyone else can do and come to the same conclusion. I do know one thing: comparing the speed of grenades without the grenadier trait, and the speed of mortar, the mortar projectile is in no way faster than grenades, especially at 1500 range. You don’t have to be a math wiz to see that.

Damage = Weapon strength * Power * Skill coefficient / Armor

Damage dealt is this formula.
First, tooltips lie. so don’t use them for anything.

weapon strength is the actual listed weapon damage.
This is hidden on kits. so a bit harder to value. but tested has shown kit weapon strength is about 1017 average while you have an ascended rifle or pistol equipped. kits do scale with rare, fine, exotic, ascended quality weapons.
(a pistol is 1000 average, and rifle 1150 average) kit tooltips actually show a totally wrong 923 ave kit weapon strength.

Power is your total power.

Skill coefficient is the coefficient each skill uses individually. every skill has a unique one.
for hip shot this is .650. meaning hip shot effectively uses 65% of your power for its damage per shot.

Armor is your targets armor, which directly reduces damage dealt as you can see. tooltips use 2600 armor for display.

attack speed is measured with a stopwatch. tooltips show a recharge value, which generally has no meaningful correlation to anything. Break out the stopwatch to get a real value.

No one said the mortar projectile is faster. What WAS said was, in 30 seconds you throw 3 grenade volleys. In 30 seconds you fire 37.5 mortar shots.
7 more attacks made.

so right now we have grenades and mort0r dealing the same amount of damage per attack. but, mortar fires off 20% more often.

(with mortar not getting explosives, yes grenades do deal 10% more damage per throw atm. +explosive procs.)

Random Wax Orc.7695:

none of this is true.

This statement must refer to everything that is about to be said and not everything that was quoted.

Tool tips cannot be both unreliable when they argue against the nerf and proof when they argue in favor of the nerf. Players actually using Mortar are seeing damage numbers and those are not unreliable. Players actually using Mortar are seeing how often these slow visible arcing lobs are avoided because there are no damage numbers. Mortar #1 does not do more damage, perhaps it theoretically could if it was auto-targeting, and auto-firing but it isn’t. Perhaps Mortar #1 could do more damage if it changed trajectory to auto-hit, like most targeted ranged attacks. Pre-nerf Mortar #1 was nothing close to OP, arguably it was even underpowered. Post-nerf Mortar #1 is mostly harmless.

I am tired of people who do not use Mortar #1 endlessly spinning a narrative that the nerf was somehow justified, just because it is irrelevant to their build or the class they actually play. I can’t help but feel that this thread, and the Engineer forum in general, is being trolled by people who secretly main other classes.

This^

I am not using the tooltips as the source of the numbers I have been speaking of. As I said here:

lorddarkflare.9186:

lorddarkflare.9186:

This nerf is a good idea. The range:damage ration was unprecedented.

How is it that you think that? Before the nerf it did slightly less damage than grenade kit #1 attack (the same power based damage, but it puts out fewer conditions) while still being as slow and hard to hit people at 1500 range as grenade kit was. Now it does as much power damage as rifle AA, the only thing that makes it a little higher damage is the slight boost in damage it gets from “explosive powder” and “steel-packed powder.” Everyone that keeps saying it did all this damage aparently can’t add the damage from the 3 grenades in grenade #1. Before the nerf, in a full zerker build I was critting with the mortar #1 at between 3K and 5k max, I was hitting things on average for around 4k. That’s the same numbers I see with grenade #1 attack. Now, the highest crit I can get with mortar #1 is 2.5K to the occasional 3k. That’s the same as rifle AA

Now, the only reason to ever use mortar #1 is if I happen to need to hit something at range beyond 1000, because it’s literally now our only power based attack with a range beyond that.

I am getting my numbers from actually hitting level 80 mobs (in Silver wastes and Dungeons) with the mortar kit and the grenade kit.

Small Edit: I don’t actually use full zerker, but a mix of Zerker and assasins.

“engineers” refusing to use evidence or math.
so disappoint.

Casia.4281:

“engineers” refusing to use evidence or math.
so disappoint.

Just because you choose to ignore the evidence we have put forth doesn’t mean we didn’t provide it.

set a control. remove other variables. establish values such as armor, power.
Record numbers over a large sample size. 100 attacks min. 1000 ideal.

“I did 3k vs vinewrath with mortar, and 3.5 with grenades” is not evidence. that is an anecdote.

Casia.4281:

set a control. remove other variables. establish values such as armor, power.
Record numbers over a large sample size. 100 attacks min. 1000 ideal.

“I did 3k vs vinewrath with mortar, and 3.5 with grenades” is not evidence. that is an anecdote.

That’s all fine and dandy on paper. But I have actually been using these kits on actual mobs and players to get my information, instead of just adding numbers from tooltips (and then saying tooltips are inaccurate) or hitting some target dummy.

We aren’t talking about how mortar performs on paper, we are talking about how much damage you get from actually hitting someone with it, and how often you can actually hit them. Most people who have actually been using this kit can tell you that it never needed the nerf, and it is much weaker than grenades, only slightly stronger than rifle.

Gern.2978:

Casia.4281:

set a control. remove other variables. establish values such as armor, power.
Record numbers over a large sample size. 100 attacks min. 1000 ideal.

“I did 3k vs vinewrath with mortar, and 3.5 with grenades” is not evidence. that is an anecdote.

That’s all fine and dandy on paper. But I have actually been using these kits on actual mobs and players to get my information, instead of just adding numbers from tooltips (and then saying tooltips are inaccurate) or hitting some target dummy.

We aren’t talking about how mortar performs on paper, we are talking about how much damage you get from actually hitting someone with it, and how often you can actually hit them. Most people who have actually been using this kit can tell you that it never needed the nerf, and it is much weaker than grenades, only slightly stronger than rifle.

no one is talking “on paper”.
go to silver wastes, remove all traits, etc. extra gear. no parties. no other players. ideal to use the dummies. but npcs can be used if you make sure to attack the same npc over and over. and you must also then use a control weapon to figure out the npcs armor value.

attack them 1000 times. record values.

Casia.4281:

Gern.2978:

Casia.4281:

set a control. remove other variables. establish values such as armor, power.
Record numbers over a large sample size. 100 attacks min. 1000 ideal.

“I did 3k vs vinewrath with mortar, and 3.5 with grenades” is not evidence. that is an anecdote.

That’s all fine and dandy on paper. But I have actually been using these kits on actual mobs and players to get my information, instead of just adding numbers from tooltips (and then saying tooltips are inaccurate) or hitting some target dummy.

We aren’t talking about how mortar performs on paper, we are talking about how much damage you get from actually hitting someone with it, and how often you can actually hit them. Most people who have actually been using this kit can tell you that it never needed the nerf, and it is much weaker than grenades, only slightly stronger than rifle.

no one is talking “on paper”.
go to silver wastes, remove all traits, etc. extra gear. no parties. no other players. ideal to use the dummies. but npcs can be used if you make sure to attack the same npc over and over. and you must also then use a control weapon to figure out the npcs armor value.

attack them 1000 times. record values.

If you are saying that you got your numbers from going to the silverwastes, hitting a target dummy 3,000 times and then doing the math on it, I don’t believe you.

Right now we have an elite kit that it is easily outmatched by a normal one.
Like it or not, that’s an issue. No one ever thought that Signet of Rage being better than the other signets or that Feel My Wrath being so strong with that cooldown were anything strange. Cause they are elite skills.
Mortar Kit should be the same. It uses up an elite skill slot, it should be worth of that slot.
Right now, it isn’t. People would rather use autoattacks with a kit that even compete with it for trait slots (Shrapnel/Siege Rounds) than using the mortar autoattack.
That’s how blatantly bad it is.

Here, you go. I made some visual evidence of the sub-par damage of Mortar #1, in comparison with rifle and grenade #1 on mobs in silverwatstes. Enjoy.

Random Wax Orc.7695:

I can’t help but feel that this thread, and the Engineer forum in general, is being trolled by people who secretly main other classes.

You really need to stop saying this stuff. Many of the people posting in this thread have been playing the game since launch, and have actively contributed to the meta across all aspects of the game primarily playing the engineer.

The point of contention is this: Some think a 1500 range skill should deal more damage than the Grenade Kit. Others don’t. It’s really that simple. Please leave the ad hominem at the door.

Manuhell.2759:

Mortar Kit should be the same. It uses up an elite skill slot, it should be worth of that slot.

And it does. Just not in the form of damage.

What you really should be asking yourself is what the Mortar Kit offers compared to other elites.

Gern.2978:

Here, you go. I made some visual evidence of the sub-par damage of Mortar #1, in comparison with rifle and grenade #1 on mobs in silverwatstes. Enjoy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVRqEh_J4jk

wish your combat log was open..

drop gunk is ethereal field. hell I didnt even notice that before. Mortar is even better than I thought. you ran OUT of it. why would you even do that?

716-869 mortar. vul stacks of course mess things up a bit. vs scaled drake.
:09-:21 15 shots in12s. .8s/a

Rifle. vs arid devourer.
628-786
1:18-1:26. 10 shots in 8s. also clocking in at .8s/a

Mortar. vs arid dev #2.
missed alot. 755-806. small sample.
1:34-1:45 14 shots in 11s .78s/a.
Mortar. vs arid dev #3.
822-831
1:48-1:56

Grenades. vs arid dev.
lots of misses again. 335-382 hard to read. so many crits, and overlapping numbers. pls combat log.
2:05-2:16 11 attacks in 11s. 1a/s

you have explosive powder giving 10% damage to grenades. Mod ammo giving all sorts of damage based on any given value. vul, bleeds, etc…
if you USED your combo fields, your mortar would be getting 2% from the poison, blind, confuse, bleed, etc each..
Glass cannon should be hitting them all, as well as excessive energy.

Grenades. vs arid dev2
332-359.
Grenades. vs arid dev3
402-423.

Your vul stacking and traits makes it impossible to get an accurate assessment.

your rifle is clearly averaging in the 600’s per hit, mortar in the 750-800s, per hit
Nades 1000per hit. which duh, considering you have more nade traits. at least 10% from explosions.

I feel like the range complaints are the same people that insist grenades when at 1200+ range, would fail to hit due to the spread. “but you never can land 3 grenades!”

so what did we learn from that?

1. mortar hits harder then rifle.
2. mortar attacks faster then grenades.
3. grenades are just as easy to miss with, as mortar.
4. grenades are the superior melee weapon, due to stacking more procs per attack. Also, lets add the several crit in melee range traits.
5. mortar needs its explosion tag correctly.
6. mortar is a combo beast.
7. mortar is the 1500 range option. and thus superior ranged option.

Grenades. short-medium. High dps, high conditions.
Bombs. no range. high dps. high combos.
Mortar. Long-short range. medium dps. high combos.
Rifle. medium-point blank. staple dps. jumpshot. cc.
Pistol. short-point blank.. BURN THEM ALL.
flamethrower. -ft2, ft4, swap back out.
elixir gun. … acid bath. underwater has to have something right?
tk. point blank. cc. cc. burst damage.

is this is hard?

Casia.4281:

Gern.2978:

Here, you go. I made some visual evidence of the sub-par damage of Mortar #1, in comparison with rifle and grenade #1 on mobs in silverwatstes. Enjoy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVRqEh_J4jk

wish your combat log was open..

drop gunk is ethereal field. hell I didnt even notice that before. Mortar is even better than I thought. you ran OUT of it. why would you even do that?

716-869 mortar. vul stacks of course mess things up a bit. vs scaled drake.
:09-:21 15 shots in12s. .8s/a

Rifle. vs arid devourer.
628-786
1:18-1:26. 10 shots in 8s. also clocking in at .8s/a

Mortar. vs arid dev #2.
missed alot. 755-806. small sample.
1:34-1:45 14 shots in 11s .78s/a.
Mortar. vs arid dev #3.
822-831
1:48-1:56

Grenades. vs arid dev.
lots of misses again. 335-382 hard to read. so many crits, and overlapping numbers. pls combat log.
2:05-2:16 11 attacks in 11s. 1a/s

you have explosive powder giving 10% damage to grenades. Mod ammo giving all sorts of damage based on any given value. vul, bleeds, etc…
if you USED your combo fields, your mortar would be getting 2% from the poison, blind, confuse, bleed, etc each..
Glass cannon should be hitting them all, as well as excessive energy.

Grenades. vs arid dev2
332-359.
Grenades. vs arid dev3
402-423.

Your vul stacking and traits makes it impossible to get an accurate assessment.

your rifle is clearly averaging in the 600’s per hit, mortar in the 750-800s, per hit
Nades 1000per hit. which duh, considering you have more nade traits. at least 10% from explosions.

I ran out of the field because I was trying to showcase the power damage, not the condi damage. It’s a pretty well established fact that grenades do more condi damage than mortar anyways.

The math that you provide here only seems to back up what I have been saying: that mortar’s#1 attack damage is more comparable to rifle. Although you are padding it’s damage a bit. As you can clearly see, it’s striking for pretty much the same as rifle. As for having more nade traits: I only had the baseline traits, which also apply to mortar. I also specifically avoided using skilled marksman, which when taken makes rifle better than mortar #1 against single targets within 1000 range. You can pretty clearly see what each grenade is critting for without the combat log. They are each critting for between 800 and 900 average, which amounts to 2400-2700 power damage. Mortar was critting for 1600-1800 average, which is about the same as rifle.

As far as missing a lot of the mortar attacks, that’s largely the point, you are rarely going to hit with 100% of mortar #1’s attacks, and in PvP/WvW you will be lucky to hit with 50% of them at any significant range.

sigh…

your nades were getting 10% explosive powder.
2% from cripple, via mod ammo.
And about 7-8% from vul stacks.
21% more damage, because you didnt isolate traits, or focus playstyle around each strengths you traited for nades.

Becuase mortar is not an explosive, its relying on your first crit to add vul (50% chance)and bleeds(33% chance..)
THEN gets its 5% damage, and THEN gets its 10% more crit chance. as well.

Casia.4281:

so what did we learn from that?

1. mortar hits harder then rifle.
2. mortar attacks faster then grenades.
3. grenades are just as easy to miss with, as mortar.
4. grenades are the superior melee weapon, due to stacking more procs per attack. Also, lets add the several crit in melee range traits.
5. mortar needs its explosion tag correctly.
6. mortar is a combo beast.
7. mortar is the 1500 range option. and thus superior ranged option.

Grenades. short-medium. High dps, high conditions.
Bombs. no range. high dps. high combos.
Mortar. Long-short range. medium dps. high combos.
Rifle. medium-point blank. staple dps. jumpshot. cc.
Pistol. short-point blank.. BURN THEM ALL.
flamethrower. -ft2, ft4, swap back out.
elixir gun. … acid bath. underwater has to have something right?
tk. point blank. cc. cc. burst damage.

is this is hard?

Mortar fires as fast as rifle without the “skilled marksman” trait and it’s damage almost identical. Thus, the only real reason to ever use it is if you are needing to strike multiple foes at once, shooting someone on a wall and you can’t use grenades for some reason, or you absolutely need to hit something at range greater than 1000. otherwise, you are going to do more damage by taking “skilled marksman,” putting down the poison field from mortar, and shooting through the poison field with rifle.

Casia.4281:

sigh…

your nades were getting 10% explosive powder.
2% from cripple, via mod ammo.
And about 7-8% from vul stacks.
21% more damage, because you didnt isolate traits, or focus playstyle around each strengths you traited for nades.

Look. At. The. Video. The only nade traits I had were “steel backed power” “explosive powder”, and shrapnel. All of which apply to mortar as well as grenades.

I’m getting more and more convinced you are simply trolling.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Manuhell.2759:

Mortar Kit should be the same. It uses up an elite skill slot, it should be worth of that slot.

And it does. Just not in the form of damage.

What you really should be asking yourself is what the Mortar Kit offers compared to other elites.

It offers some fields. And not even the good ones, except for the water one. And that’s also probably the only one that can see some uses…since any enemy smart enough will rather go out from the other fields – it isn’t like they’re large, and both the mortar autoattack and the orbital laser are rather easy to see and avoid, mostly due of their slowness. They can have some use only at point-blank range, and only as long as you shoot the field and some attacks asap – that is, before the enemy moves away.
Even then, for those fields to have some decent duration, we have to trait them.
And here comes the issue. Why would we ever bother getting Siege Rounds if we can get Shrapnel and use grenades instead?
See, the choice doesn’t come in a vacuum – we can’t just compare the mortar with other elites. Especially if we consider we’ll use one of the autoattacks of the kits for a good amount of time. It also depends on what traits we’re going to get.
Either we empower grenades or we empower mortar fields and get an additional blast finisher.
And seeing as the mokittenoesn’t offer anything else of value beside some of those fields…without the trait, you can as well avoid to get it entirely.
Especially if the other choice makes your good autoattack – a skill used for relevant amounts of time – even better, with abundant applications of bleeding and even some cripple.
Obviously, if we talk about pve, there is no reason to even bother choosing…we’ll just get traited grenades. All that matters is killing those enemies, and since grenades or bombs already offer better autoattacks and damaging conditions on their kits, there is no reason to bother with those fields at all.

Gern.2978:

Casia.4281:

sigh…

your nades were getting 10% explosive powder.
2% from cripple, via mod ammo.
And about 7-8% from vul stacks.
21% more damage, because you didnt isolate traits, or focus playstyle around each strengths you traited for nades.

Look. At. The. Video. The only nade traits I had were “steel backed power” “explosive powder”, and shrapnel. All of which apply to mortar as well as grenades.

I’m getting more and more convinced you are simply trolling.

Aaand that’s where your argument falls on its nose. Explosives powder does not work on mortar.

Here there be buggins.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/support/bugs/Engineer-Bugs-Updated-Consolidated/first

And you want accurate assessments? Learn to use the dummies in the silverwastes. They have no crit, no vuln, no condi.

Gern.2978:

Casia.4281:

sigh…

your nades were getting 10% explosive powder.
2% from cripple, via mod ammo.
And about 7-8% from vul stacks.
21% more damage, because you didnt isolate traits, or focus playstyle around each strengths you traited for nades.

Look. At. The. Video. The only nade traits I had were “steel backed power” “explosive powder”, and shrapnel. All of which apply to mortar as well as grenades.

I’m getting more and more convinced you are simply trolling.

hrm weird. testing earlier found no change with the trait. not the only one seeing that too..
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/support/bugs/Engineer-Bugs-Updated-Consolidated/page/2#post5219180

testing now. did come up with it working.

This does create problems. if you were getting 10% explosives, and cripple, and double the vul stacks anticipated, etc your damage should have been higher.
Mortar should be doing very clearly more damage then rifle, esp if explosive powder is working.

I wonder if there is something interfering with it. getting overwritten by another trait or something.

Random Wax Orc.7695:

The Engineer class is not an exclusive club for meta only players.

I never said it was.

Random Wax Orc.7695:

Saying A “needs to be toned down” or B is “useless and should be removed” does not serve to invigorate the class.

I disagree. I should be allowed to call out something as legitimately overpowered if I think it is.

Random Wax Orc.7695:

No it isn’t. It is about keeping the Mortar generally useful for everyone.

How is a six second water field not useful to everyone? Or a six second blind field? Or two blast finishers on a 40 second cooldown? Or four blast finishers with Kinetic Battery? Or a light field that, when they finally get it working properly, will cause the #1 skill to cleanse conditions with every shell?

There are plenty of reasons to still use the kit. It just demands that you use other kits if you want to deal maximum damage.

The best ranged option shouldn’t also be our best damage option; this is precisely the trap we have been suffering from for the past three years as engineers. And before they nerfed it, the only auto-attack that was stronger than Mortar Shot was the Bomb Kit.

Random Wax Orc.7695:

My feeling about the matter were not specifically directed at anyone, just at the general tone of what I’ve seen in the forum. That is not an ad hominem… that is a personal impression.

Directing your attention toward the speaker(s) of an argument rather than their actual argument is the very definition of ad hominem.

So just don’t. Thanks.

also playing a condition build. the phys proj is really strong. people are REALLY underestimating that.
pretty sure naplam, throw naplam and firebomb give 100% firefield uptime.

Phineas Poe.3018:

The best ranged option shouldn’t also be our best damage option; this is precisely the trap we have been suffering from for the past three years as engineers. And before they nerfed it, the only auto-attack that was stronger than Mortar Shot was the Bomb Kit.

The “best ranged option” uses up an elite slot, and yet won’t even actually hit enemies at high ranges most of the times, cause people can just easily walk out of the area.
Basically, it ends up being reliable only on medium/low ranges.
And in those ranges we already have grenades. That end up being the best ranged option for both conditions and power. Exactly like they did in the past, since they suffered from the same avoidability at high ranges that mortar suffers, anyway. Albeit, with grenadier, they now are pretty fast at their reduced range.
Grenades are still king. The difference is that before we didn’t even have other choices. Now we just have a meaningless one.

Here you go:

https://youtu.be/U-OZYfXrNlM?t=1m
While I don’t agree with using a target dummy to prove either argument, since conditions are a major part of the DPS for mortar and grenade, I made a video of me hitting a target dummy with no stats to benefit Rifle, mortar, or grenade, since a few of you are so hung up on it.

With this video you can clearly see that mortar #1 hits as fast, and for the same amount of damage as rifle AA without the “skilled marksman” trait. It’s only advantage is that it’s 1500 range, and an AOE. It clearly does not hit as hard as grenade #1.

You all are forgetting that mortar is yet to receive 10% extra damage. And that it’s a 100% projectile finisher. Want regen / condi removal / burn / poison up the wazoo? Mortar is a lot easier to hit than grenades. And less risky than rifle, with moar range and the option to keep your target chilled for easier hits. And Orbital strike counts towards its damage potential on TOP of all the other things we get. But hey, some people just ignore some facts in order to prove their point.

shrug

The nerf was still slightly overdone maybe, but we’ll see what time tells.

Sold Out.7625:

You all are forgetting that mortar is yet to receive 10% extra damage.

Can you say for certain that it’s going to get that?

And that it’s a 100% projectile finisher. Want regen / condi removal / burn / poison up the wazoo?

Yeah, that’s a bit of an overstatement. Besides, have you actually tried to use it in this capacity? It doesn’t work nearly as well as you think it does.

Mortar is a lot easier to hit than grenades. And less risky than rifle,

Lol, what? How is it either of those things?

But hey, some people just ignore some facts in order to prove their point.

shrug

I think you might want to check yourself on this last bit.

Gern.2978:

Sold Out.7625:

You all are forgetting that mortar is yet to receive 10% extra damage.

Can you say for certain that it’s going to get that?

And that it’s a 100% projectile finisher. Want regen / condi removal / burn / poison up the wazoo?

Yeah, that’s a bit of an overstatement. Besides, have you actually tried to use it in this capacity? It doesn’t work nearly as well as you think it does.

Mortar is a lot easier to hit than grenades. And less risky than rifle,

Lol, what? How is it either of those things?

But hey, some people just ignore some facts in order to prove their point.

shrug

I think you might want to check yourself on this last bit.

How I know it’s going to get that? It’s already being affected by explosion traits. It’s even in the tooltip. It’s just not working properly yet ingame. Why would it be affected by all other explosion traits except this one, hm? ’tis a bug.

It’s not an overstatement. I use it in that capacity all the time. And it’s hilariously easy, especially with the promised fix to make it always proc the projectile finisher as long as the mortar shot’s #1 ends up in that field. It’s going to be literally “remove a condition for attacking”. Do blind field on target or below you, spam #1. Even more amusing with fields that do blinds on projectile finisher I bet. Or your gunk’s ethereal field. I -wish- my rifle would have capacity to do aoe confusion on every #1. Having the damage of bombs without the delayed explosion and clunky casts on -top- of that was a bit unfair.

How is it easier to hit than grenades? It actually has a higher velocity than base grenades had in the past. If you compare it to grenadier, that’s a different story. But we combine a higher projectile speed with 240 radius fields, including a chill and a blind field, which makes it a lot less risky to use. That and you don’t have the melee spread issue where grenades fly upwards in some point blank situations. Nor will you despair trying to hit something like AC spiders. It also comes with a higher attack rate simply due to the shorter aftercast, so one missed attack is less serious than one missed grenade throw. Minimal difference, but a difference.

How is it less risky than rifle? Rifle is a melee weapon, through and through. Its snare hardly works at a range because it travels slow. Rifle does not give you blind access. Rifle does not give you a heal. Rifle does not allow you to do haphazard strafes with ground targets, nor does it allow 1500 range. Rifle does not allow you to guaranteed combo finishers with #1. Rifle does not have aoe at range. But that’s an empty statement, I give you this one, because if you know anything you will use both rifle and mortar in tandem.

So yeah. I’m not ignoring any facts. But try to reflect on what you’re actually writing.

ok ok, lets point out the fact that they did this nerf 1 day after they put out the patch….. they didnt give the majority time to learn how to NOT stand in the center of the orbital strike to not die. then when people complained about standing in a big atk, and dying, that it is OP? Second, the “condi pressure” from mortar kit is complete garbage. you cant hardly do any bit of condi damage with the kit. is it there? yes. is it at all damaging? no. the fact that it is a 100% projectile finisher is just a small buff to what is supposed to be our “elite” skill. it is hardly able to be considered better than the mainhand pistol in damage and rifle in condi. plz revert the patch.
TY, GLHF.

choovanski.5462:

I can 100-0 people with one grenade barrage and mortar was nerfed?

This is the crux of it for me, why is nerfing abilities which are hardly OP a higher priority than actual bugs which are resulting in damage that is OP?

As an engi, I did not appreciate being hit by spammable 4k crits from other engis. The mortar’s current strength is not in its single hit damage, but by its spammability at range. To compare, it’s less damage than LB ranger BUT in an AoE and with a lot more utility. Single target damage is lower, but you’re hitting more people.

In it’s current state, it’s like a 1500 range well of suffering with no CD.

Sold Out.7625:

It’s not an overstatement. I use it in that capacity all the time. And it’s hilariously easy,

Then you havent been paying attention, because you can’t use it to stack regen on yourself, or remove conditions form yourself, and the #1 attack only puts conditions on enemies it passes through.

Sold Out.7625:

Or your gunk’s ethereal field. I -wish- my rifle would have capacity to do aoe confusion on every #1.

It does. Shoot it through the gunk your mortar puts down.

Sold Out.7625:

Having the damage of bombs without the delayed explosion and clunky casts on -top- of that was a bit unfair.

It does have the delay, because it has to fly through the air to hit something. That delay is greater at 1500 range, and much easier to dodge/sidestep

Sold Out.7625:

How is it easier to hit than grenades? It actually has a higher velocity than base grenades had in the past.

That point is made moot by it’s pitiful damage. Unless you absolutely have to hit multiple targets over 900 range, or you absolutely have to hit something farther than 1000 range, then there is no reason to use the #1 attack on an enemy.

Sold Out.7625:

If you compare it to grenadier, that’s a different story. But we combine a higher projectile speed with 240 radius fields, including a chill and a blind field, which makes it a lot less risky to use. That and you don’t have the melee spread issue where grenades fly upwards in some point blank situations. Nor will you despair trying to hit something like AC spiders. It also comes with a higher attack rate simply due to the shorter aftercast, so one missed attack is less serious than one missed grenade throw. Minimal difference, but a difference.

And not enough of a difference to justify the massive damage nerf that it got.

Sold Out.7625:

So yeah. I’m not ignoring any facts. ..

Yes, you are, because you clearly didn’t watch my videos showing how it does the same amount of damage as rifle #1, while also being easier to avoid.

Mortar #1’s base damage before the nerf was the same as grenades. No one was asking for a nerf to grenade’s damage when they had 1500 range. And unlike grenades, mortar only has one power based attack. Yes, mortar #1 is a little bit faster than grenades were, but it’s not enough to make much of a difference, especially since it’s a lot more obvious of an attack. So why is this nerf justified?

Random Wax Orc.7695:

Isn’t Ranger’s best ranged option also its best damage option? What about Engineer is allowed and not allowed to be best? and Why?

Again, our build diversity across the entire game has been crippled since launch by the very fact that the Grenade Kit offered maximum DPS alongside maximum range. The ranger longbow does not offer maximum DPS; that would go to their sword. The longbow also primarily dishes out single-target damage, making it pretty terrible for PvE.

The “meta” for ranger, as far as PvE is concerned, has usually extended to sword/x with greatsword. And while the longbow is really good for PvP, condition builds have been just as good in the past if not better at times. And then you had spirit rangers…

For engineer, since launch, it’s always been about the Grenade Kit. For everything. For every situation. Optimal. Always best. PvE. PvP. WvW. Whatever. And while it still outperforms the Bomb Kit in damage due to vulnerability stacking, it is no longer our maximum range option, and there are several builds floating around in the Mists that don’t use it because of other situational buffs to kits. As I said already, when the dust settles, we will have more options than we had pre-patch, and part of that is due to the Mortar Kit’s existence.

Random Wax Orc.7695:

As I keep saying, Mortar #1 is also easiest to avoid. So it was never the best damage option. Higher damage helps balance out the difficulty in connecting with Mortar #1. From max range, an enemy can fairly easily close to melee distance without being hit once by Mortar #1, without using special skills.

It’s called leading your shots. Engineers have been doing this with grenades since 2012.

Random Wax Orc.7695:

What is the point of a mere blast finisher when the target will almost never be in the same AoE circle for two slow attacks?

What’s the point?

PvP and WvW are built around defending and attacking set points on the map. Drop your poison field and blast it twice on the corner a zerg is stacking. Drop your water field and blast it twice on the point you’re defending.

I mean seriously. If you cannot figure out the practical applications of having two blast finishers and a six second water field I don’t know what else there is to talk about. We are veering toward “L2P” territory.

Everyone keeps citing all the benefits of mortar kit.

Yeah, it’s not useless. That doesn’t change the fact that the nerf was not warranted. The #1 attack was in no way so brokenly overpowered that it required a 28% damage nerf.

mortar kit was good enough to not take nades for a day. now you have to take nades again. 4 fields is nice sure, but is it as nice as supply crate? I know which one will help me win a 1v1. mortar(anet why is mortar a swear?) doesn’t need to be somewhat useful, it has to compete for the elite slot. it needs to be sup crate good. needs to win you teamfights like X moa > rampage can.

Well, nades is a close to midrange high damage set, so it makes sense that its better as a 1v1 tool as opposed to mortar, which is a long range medium damage, high utility tool for fighting against large groups.

choovanski.5462:

mortar kit was good enough to not take nades for a day.

^this

Will mortar shells be explosions later and why an earth they are not in the first place? (great mysteries of tyria)

ikiturso.4026:

Will mortar shells be explosions later and why an earth they are not in the first place? (great mysteries of tyria)

They are explosions and always were supposed to be so. They were bugged, but they fixed it.

Mortar might be working with explosions already. testing seems inconsistent. I’m going to try seeing if a trait of some kind was interfering.

yesterdays testing showed it getting explosive damage increase when I tested.
So it was already fixed, or there is some odd combination of traits that makeit/break it.

hip shots .65coeff, into the rifles higher weapon damage at 1150 average ascended, gives a 747 combined coeff.

I estimated mortar at either .75 or .8 into the 1017 weapon str. for 763 or 813.
the 763 estimate would throw up very similar numbers per shot to hipshot, without explosives trait.
the 813 should be noticeably higher.
813 is 8.8% higher damage then hip shots 747
763 is 2.1% higher then hip shots 747.
WITH explosives it should be very noticeable.

nades are .33×3 1017 weapon str. for 1007 24% higher then the 813.

gerns vid. he is getting 10% damage from excessive energy, and not dodge rolling to burn it off.
Predator=legendary/ascended weapon str.
(wait… I didn’t test that… IS his legendary giving ascended weapon kit str or exotic? I would NOT put that past them… I dont have a legendary weapon to test..)

hip shot 866-1053 959.5 av
Mortar 958-1045 1003 av (that the high is LESS then hip shots, makes me think you didnt get your max mortar hit. so this might be a low average.)
I would expect 959.5x 1.088 for 1044 av mortar hit, assuming the .8 coeff. without
explosives trait.
959.5x 1.021 for 979 av mortar hit, assuming the .75coeff. makes me think the .8 coeff is correct, as you clearly are not seeing that.

Grenade 390-430 x3. 1230 av
1003 × 1.24= 1244.

The numbers check out here.

Grenades at 1230 average per hit, with 1 attack/s. 1230 dps.
Mortar at 1003 av per hit, with 1.25 attacks/s. (.8s/a). 1254 dps.
Hip shot at 959.5 av per hit, with 1.19 a/s (.84s/a). 1142dps.

PS, took mortar into “courtyard” with my cond build. hahah. oh man was it a slaughter.
I can see mortars 100% phsy proj, its 1500 ran and its aoe chill/poison being completely broken in wvw, and some spvp maps.

second round of attacks you made, hit 1057 hip shot, and still did not brake 1045 mortar.
lows in the 800’s for hip shot though. wonder if rifle has a higher range.

Casia.4281:

Sold Out.7625:

Basandra Skye.4031:

Just a sidenote, Mortar’s damage IS being increased by explosive powder, and is in fact being classed as an explosion. This is easy enough to tell when you run the trait Steel-packed powder, or simply look at Mortar’s skill damage and see that it’s damage is blue, not white when you’re traited with explosive powder.

Also, I’m just going to go ahead and say it because we’re thinking it: Mortar Shot’s damage decreased by too much with the latest kneejerk patch. It now only exceeds the Rifle’s damage by virtue of the explosion’s damage trait.

Well, it does by ~5% base, and additionally has the 100% projectile finisher. Was the nerf a bit overdone? Without a doubt. Engie lacks any other ranged option. But if the trait -and- the finisher are both fixed, it should be a decent skill. Now to quickly check if steel packed powder was fixed!

Edit: After some testing, I do -not- think it is actually applied. On the tooltip, yes. I only really quickly hit some dummies though, so that’s hardly maths. Lemme check s’more.

Double edit: All numbers taken without gear in the Silverwastes.

30 shots of Mortar #1 without the Explosives line:

• 5297 damage total

30 shots of mortar #1 WITH the Explosives line (no Glass cannon traited, and no vuln applied on dummies, but Explosives Powder as a minor.)

• 5323 damage total

Short Maths of 10 Mortar #1 shots x 3 WITH glasscannon:

• 5589 damage total

Explosives packed powder is only applied in the tooltip!

agreed. tested. and 10% explosive damage is not being applied.

tested again, and DOES seem to be getting explosive damage. not sure if fixed, or there is some other odd trait interaction making it sometimes get it, sometimes not. (wouldnt be the first time one trait, breaks a different one.)

Still doesn’t work on the dummies!

Sold Out.7625:

Casia.4281:

Sold Out.7625:

Basandra Skye.4031:

Just a sidenote, Mortar’s damage IS being increased by explosive powder, and is in fact being classed as an explosion. This is easy enough to tell when you run the trait Steel-packed powder, or simply look at Mortar’s skill damage and see that it’s damage is blue, not white when you’re traited with explosive powder.

Also, I’m just going to go ahead and say it because we’re thinking it: Mortar Shot’s damage decreased by too much with the latest kneejerk patch. It now only exceeds the Rifle’s damage by virtue of the explosion’s damage trait.

Well, it does by ~5% base, and additionally has the 100% projectile finisher. Was the nerf a bit overdone? Without a doubt. Engie lacks any other ranged option. But if the trait -and- the finisher are both fixed, it should be a decent skill. Now to quickly check if steel packed powder was fixed!

Edit: After some testing, I do -not- think it is actually applied. On the tooltip, yes. I only really quickly hit some dummies though, so that’s hardly maths. Lemme check s’more.

Double edit: All numbers taken without gear in the Silverwastes.

30 shots of Mortar #1 without the Explosives line:

• 5297 damage total

30 shots of mortar #1 WITH the Explosives line (no Glass cannon traited, and no vuln applied on dummies, but Explosives Powder as a minor.)

• 5323 damage total

Short Maths of 10 Mortar #1 shots x 3 WITH glasscannon:

• 5589 damage total

Explosives packed powder is only applied in the tooltip!

agreed. tested. and 10% explosive damage is not being applied.

tested again, and DOES seem to be getting explosive damage. not sure if fixed, or there is some other odd trait interaction making it sometimes get it, sometimes not. (wouldnt be the first time one trait, breaks a different one.)

Still doesn’t work on the dummies!

ha no. I checked that. when i tested yesterday, I first went to the arid devourers Gern was attacking for consistency, then when I saw it was working, ran over to the dummies to see if that WAS the issue. but nope, was working there too.

Will check if it was stealth fixed tomorrow then! Too tired for that tonight. But there definitely wasn’t a patch recently so I would not know how it was fixied.

yeah, I’m leaning towards its a weird interaction of traits. like maybe aim-assisted rocket breaks it or something dumb. and not actually fixed per-say.

its possible we both somehow were wrong… but the damage should have been very noticeable. don’t really know how we could have.

Sigh

It was like 8 months I wasn’t playing my engineer if not occasionally logging it for crafting or 10 min open world.

I was so excited when they launched the new kit and I had fun the first two days by using it in open world and dungeons (even if it was worse than bombs and it did the same damage as grenades, but without applying 3vuln). I was literally only playing engi because I was having fun like the first time I started an engineer… but now you killed it. You totally destroyed it.

I do admit that you have an exceptional skill in building nice things and then crush them with a sadistic grin on your face.

I refuse to go back on grenades again. Since when I got to 80, the meta has always been grenades, grenades, grenades, grenades… how kittening boring. I’ll now go back on my thief; that one class never disappoints. RIP mortar