Guild Wars 2

The reason you will see so much Engi defense is that people who have mained engineers since Beta have had to deal with a lot of crap. At the beginning, it was not a worthwhile class. We had HGH, that got nerfed and you will see that Oeggs was leading the charge that it was OP. Many have said that IP is OP just like when Necro’s first got it. The problem is that after the last 4-5 months of these threads, I think the community is burnt out of hearing about Engi’s every week.

Now when I read this thread, I see it talk about specifics without looking at the whole. The issue with engi’s has been that there is no trade offs or that they are few. Might stacking/celestial allow the engi to boost power and other stats so that the CC/Damage ability is high. Take away the damage and the CC becomes less OP because my ability to Down you is lessened. Everyone says the counter to Engi is conditions because there is no clear. That’s true, period.

The real question is, are engi’s balanced against their High CC with deficits in other catagories (power, toughness, vit)? That’s probably a better question to answer than comparing skills of other classes to say what is “OP”. Using burst to down an opponent to hold the point is the same has using CC to keep them off. You just shouldn’t have both.

Thiefz.3695:

The reason you will see so much Engi defense is that people who have mained engineers since Beta have had to deal with a lot of crap. At the beginning, it was not a worthwhile class. We had HGH, that got nerfed and you will see that Oeggs was leading the charge that it was OP. Many have said that IP is OP just like when Necro’s first got it. The problem is that after the last 4-5 months of these threads, I think the community is burnt out of hearing about Engi’s every week.

Now when I read this thread, I see it talk about specifics without looking at the whole. The issue with engi’s has been that there is no trade offs or that they are few. Might stacking/celestial allow the engi to boost power and other stats so that the CC/Damage ability is high. Take away the damage and the CC becomes less OP because my ability to Down you is lessened. Everyone says the counter to Engi is conditions because there is no clear. That’s true, period.

The real question is, are engi’s balanced against their High CC with deficits in other catagories (power, toughness, vit)? That’s probably a better question to answer than comparing skills of other classes to say what is “OP”. Using burst to down an opponent to hold the point is the same has using CC to keep them off. You just shouldn’t have both.

While you guys shout about all the OP stuffs, the most used class in Top Tier PvP is zerk mediation Guardian, Shoutbow War, Hambow War, and Staff Ele…

And I already made a list of “to-nerf” in earlier post.
Keep on being hypocritical. I’d say those classes have no right to have high damage while having good sustain, having some of the best cleanses, and getting so many layers of might.

ellesee.8297:

Lol I actually agree with Slick Shoes nerf! That skill is pretty overpowdered! The single strongest lockdown ability in the game combined with one of the shortest stunbreak cooldown duration in the game that also refreshes at low health! Yeah pretty overpowdered! But the rest of the things on the list are lolz! And I’m surprised Overcharged Shot isn’t on that list! That skill single-handedly carries cele Engis!

Wahoo! Bye frands!

I’m disappointed in you Vee Wee! Slick Shoes has now become the only gadget we can use at a competitive level. What happened to #gadgetmeta?

The stun break is short CD because of the 4 points in the last trait line in the meta build. It’s just a bit shorter than EG stun breaker, and EG comes with a lot of other defensive abilities, and none complains about it. At least half the engineers I run into still run Elixir S. If it was truly that good, every one would run it, like Shadow Refuge on thief or Blink on mesmer.

Slick Shoes is more of a problem now for some people because bunker guardians are an endangered species, and even warriors don’t run stability anymore. So of course the CC abilities are strong in that environment. It’s not OP, it fits the meta well.

Lol you see much more engis than medi guards. From the cele classes engi was the least affected by might+sigil of battle nerf.

xDudisx.5914:

Lol you see much more engis than medi guards. From the cele classes engi was the least affected by might+sigil of battle nerf.

True. It also means that it’s the class which is the most hybrid by nature. You can play cele engi without might, because it is good in itself, which is how it should be. Engineer is also the only one of these three builds that is so weak against conditions.

Sorel.4870:

xDudisx.5914:

Lol you see much more engis than medi guards. From the cele classes engi was the least affected by might+sigil of battle nerf.

True. It also means that it’s the class which is the most hybrid by nature. You can play cele engi without might, because it is good in itself, which is how it should be. Engineer is also the only one of these three builds that is so weak against conditions.

Very good point.
Compared to all other Cele builds, Engi condition clear is pathetic.

Zefrost.3425:

Slick Shoes – Nerf the duration of the oil on the ground to 1s. This will make the skill do what it was originally intended to do.

Super Speed – Nerf this cooldown back to 45 seconds again.

Gear Shield – Nerf the cooldown to 30s.

Incendiary Powder – Nerf it.

Invigorating Speed – Nerf the cooldown to 10s.

Kk thnx then engi = balanced.
bye

I DEMAND YOUR SILENCE!!!!

Aomine.5012:

While you guys shout about all the OP stuffs, the most used class in Top Tier PvP is zerk mediation Guardian, Shoutbow War, Hambow War, and Staff Ele…

And I already made a list of “to-nerf” in earlier post.
Keep on being hypocritical. I’d say those classes have no right to have high damage while having good sustain, having some of the best cleanses, and getting so many layers of might.

I follow weekly ESL (EU only) and for me that list is a bit different. We have med guards, shoutbow wars, both staff and d/d celes and cele engies. Hambow wars are the song of the past and used rarely only to counter specific comps.

Slick Shoes does need to be nerfed. Incendiary Powder and Gear Shield are fine.

Nerfing Invigorating Speed is downright idiotic. We are literally among the worst classes when it comes to condi removal and stability. Nerfing vigor would make us total garbage.

Slick shoes doesn’t need nerfed just fixed, it shouldn’t knock down when you are standing still and it does meaning if you don’t have stability you are hooped. If you use a stun break you just fall back over and its absurd.

Basket of Boxes.1976:

Slick shoes doesn’t need nerfed just fixed, it shouldn’t knock down when you are standing still and it does meaning if you don’t have stability you are hooped.If you use a stun break you just fall back over and its absurd.

In my experience it doesn’t knock you down if you move. Found or made a video that shows this occurring perhaps?

Why shouldn’t you fall back down if you use a stun breaker? If you run into “line of warding”, “ring of warding”, once, fall down, and run into it again. As well as some other skills, the exact same effect occurs.

Did you make threads complaining about those as well or are you a bit bias here?

Sorel.4870:

ellesee.8297:

Lol I actually agree with Slick Shoes nerf! That skill is pretty overpowdered! The single strongest lockdown ability in the game combined with one of the shortest stunbreak cooldown duration in the game that also refreshes at low health! Yeah pretty overpowdered! But the rest of the things on the list are lolz! And I’m surprised Overcharged Shot isn’t on that list! That skill single-handedly carries cele Engis!

Wahoo! Bye frands!

I’m disappointed in you Vee Wee! Slick Shoes has now become the only gadget we can use at a competitive level. What happened to #gadgetmeta?

The stun break is short CD because of the 4 points in the last trait line in the meta build. It’s just a bit shorter than EG stun breaker, and EG comes with a lot of other defensive abilities, and none complains about it. At least half the engineers I run into still run Elixir S. If it was truly that good, every one would run it, like Shadow Refuge on thief or Blink on mesmer.

Slick Shoes is more of a problem now for some people because bunker guardians are an endangered species, and even warriors don’t run stability anymore. So of course the CC abilities are strong in that environment. It’s not OP, it fits the meta well.

I still run Elixir S! I still think Slick Shoes is crazy OP! The stunbreak cooldown isn’t “just a bit shorter”! It’s 10 seconds shorter! 10 seconds is a long time! I think the perfect changes to Slick Shoes are to revert the stunbreak back to 45 seconds and cap the amount of oil puddles you can make to 4 so when you make your 5th puddle, the first one disappears and so on!

And #gadgetmeta used Slick Shoes before the buff because it was good before the buff! The utility cooldown was too long at 60 seconds but that’s about it! The stunbreak was fine!

Wahoo! Bye frands!

Aomine.5012:

Thiefz.3695:

The reason you will see so much Engi defense is that people who have mained engineers since Beta have had to deal with a lot of crap. At the beginning, it was not a worthwhile class. We had HGH, that got nerfed and you will see that Oeggs was leading the charge that it was OP. Many have said that IP is OP just like when Necro’s first got it. The problem is that after the last 4-5 months of these threads, I think the community is burnt out of hearing about Engi’s every week.

Now when I read this thread, I see it talk about specifics without looking at the whole. The issue with engi’s has been that there is no trade offs or that they are few. Might stacking/celestial allow the engi to boost power and other stats so that the CC/Damage ability is high. Take away the damage and the CC becomes less OP because my ability to Down you is lessened. Everyone says the counter to Engi is conditions because there is no clear. That’s true, period.

The real question is, are engi’s balanced against their High CC with deficits in other catagories (power, toughness, vit)? That’s probably a better question to answer than comparing skills of other classes to say what is “OP”. Using burst to down an opponent to hold the point is the same has using CC to keep them off. You just shouldn’t have both.

While you guys shout about all the OP stuffs, the most used class in Top Tier PvP is zerk mediation Guardian, Shoutbow War, Hambow War, and Staff Ele…

And I already made a list of “to-nerf” in earlier post.
Keep on being hypocritical. * I’d say those classes have no right to have high damage while having good sustain*, having some of the best cleanses, and getting so many layers of might.

Zerker Medi Guard – Low health pool, slow without a sacrifice of rune slot or utility skill, lacking soft cc. Take away the sustain, clears and damage so a melee centric based class can’t do what it’s supposed to do. Ofc though maybe its supposed to do high damage because it’s zerker. The thing with medi guards its alot about CD management, and your damage and survivability are tied together.

Shoutbow – Brings a lot of group and self healing to the table but most 1vX they don’t do so hot on point. Damage is low imo.

Hambow – Its seen because it brings control, it brings area denial, and F1 is a guaranteed condi removal. Provides might, and is very ideal for group fights and all.

Staff Ele – Any ele that does great damage is probably Berserker. Only thing you really have to do is close the attack range gap and pass the CCs and they’re pretty much dead.

Proposed nerfs the OP suggested.

Slick Shoes probably, they’re only countered by stability and invuln. If you’ve been trapped in a circle of it stunbreaks aren’t going to work unless they port you outside of the black puddle prison. No idea how to nerf this but I’d say just leave it.

.Gear Shield – Seems like a reasonable nerf since almost all the multiblock skills in the game (Shield Stance Warrior, and Shelter Guardian) have a 30s CD.

IP – As much as I hate the passive proc, I think the most it would need to be balanced would be a icon indicator that its active, and/or function like thief venom, if it misses charge is expended, gain another charge when the 10s ICD comes off CD, if not probably a 15-20s CD. Leaning on the 15s though since 20s seems a bit harsh.

Invigorating Speed – Perma swiftness, I don’t think it needs to be touched, it makes kit swapping feel fluid.

Superspeed – Is fine where it is.

Lucentfir.7430:

Gear Shield – Seems like a reasonable nerf since almost all the multiblock skills in the game (Shield Stance Warrior, and Shelter Guardian) have a 30s CD.

Warrior has the best sustain in the game, and guardian has aegis and consecrations. It’s not really fair to compare—especially when both those classes have significantly better access to stability and/or stun breaks. Even with a traited Gear Shield, if an engineer gets focused they get dropped like a rock far faster compared to guard/war, if not every other class in the game.

The only classes squishier than engineer are mesmer and thief, and they have far better escapes and stealth access than we do.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Lucentfir.7430:

Gear Shield – Seems like a reasonable nerf since almost all the multiblock skills in the game (Shield Stance Warrior, and Shelter Guardian) have a 30s CD.

Warrior has the best sustain in the game, and guardian has aegis and consecrations. It’s not really fair to compare—especially when both those classes have significantly better access to stability and/or stun breaks. Even with a traited Gear Shield, if an engineer gets focused they get dropped like a rock far faster compared to guard/war, if not every other class in the game.

The only classes squishier than engineer are mesmer and thief, and they have far better escapes and stealth access than we do.

Idk, I’ve seen some really tanky engineer before, and warrior’s passive sustain is not really hard to match and drops when you apply poison. Engi can have a lesser version with backpack regenerator, and regen boon. And a 15-20s Burst heal. I will agree though that Warriors have a lot better access to Stability and stunbreakers. Guardian has Aegis and blocks to make up for the lowest health pool. As far as focus goes, that’s only if that engi is in a bad position, even then the class has loads of peels from Crate, to nade chills, to immoblizes, to slick shoes depending on your build, they can get away and distance yourself. The only thing I’ve seen that can really tear apart a good engineer is a terror condi necro with corrupt boon. They really drop like flies.

It seems engi community is now full of thieves…so sad

Im not sure Anet will look at 1 format of the game as a basis for class balance. Are these abilities over the top in PvE? WvW?

TBH theres more,

- Overcharged shot; 3s CC on a very short cooldown,
- Magnet; the fact it functions at a 1500 range is bullkitten, even 1200 pull on a short cd is still too powerful,
- Gear Shield; CD can be reduced to 20 seconds, that’s rediculous, should be 30s like warriors get.
- Thumper Turret; way too much HP considering it also can launch twice every 30s,
- Invigorating speed, yep this is for sure rediculous, they can perma vigor quite easily.

• Overcharged Shot is pretty broken! It is the ability that single handedly carries any rifle build! I think a 0.5 second cast time would be a nice addition!
• Magnet is the most obvious CC in the game with one of the longest wind up times! And 25 seconds isn’t exactly a short cooldown for such an obvious skill! Plus it’s buggy as heck! Half your Magnet pulls will desync! I do think that the Magnet lines should show while stealthed though!
• Gear Shield is pretty strong, but 30 seconds is a little overkill! 25 seconds or 1 second block time is more than fair!
• Thumper Turret is just… well it’s not that good! Yes it has a lot of health but if you’re attacking the Thumper Turret, you’re doing it wrong! It’s designed to be a tanky turret! I think the overcharge animation could be a little more pronounced so you can tell when to dodge the launch though!

Wahoo! Bye frands!

While we are busy, let’s also nerf these skills. That’s should be enough.

Henrik.7560:

TBH theres more,

- Overcharged shot; 3s CC on a very short cooldown,
- Magnet; the fact it functions at a 1500 range is bullkitten, even 1200 pull on a short cd is still too powerful,
- Gear Shield; CD can be reduced to 20 seconds, that’s rediculous, should be 30s like warriors get.
- Thumper Turret; way too much HP considering it also can launch twice every 30s,
- Invigorating speed, yep this is for sure rediculous, they can perma vigor quite easily.

Teach me how to have perma vigor, you’re obviously a better engineer that I am. There is a 10s ICD on the 2s vigor this trait gives, which is a lot less than what eles, warriors and thieves even can achiebe. The tool kit block could be 1s shorter to promote skillful play, I’ll give you that. Overcharged shot is strong, but it also cc the engineer, so even if it’s hard to predict (9 out of 10 times you just have to dodge when the engi switches to rifle though), you can still react by stun breaking rapidly and damaging the engi while he’s down. And reflects do wonder against that skill. Elesee is right, rifle wouldn’t be viable without it. Engineers only have 3 weapon sets, let’s keep them viable shall we?

Sorel.4870:

Henrik.7560:

TBH theres more,

- Overcharged shot; 3s CC on a very short cooldown,
- Magnet; the fact it functions at a 1500 range is bullkitten, even 1200 pull on a short cd is still too powerful,
- Gear Shield; CD can be reduced to 20 seconds, that’s rediculous, should be 30s like warriors get.
- Thumper Turret; way too much HP considering it also can launch twice every 30s,
- Invigorating speed, yep this is for sure rediculous, they can perma vigor quite easily.

Teach me how to have perma vigor, you’re obviously a better engineer that I am. There is a 10s ICD on the 2s vigor this trait gives, which is a lot less than what eles, warriors and thieves even can achiebe. The tool kit block could be 1s shorter to promote skillful play, I’ll give you that. Overcharged shot is strong, but it also cc the engineer, so even if it’s hard to predict (9 out of 10 times you just have to dodge when the engi switches to rifle though), you can still react by stun breaking rapidly and damaging the engi while he’s down. And reflects do wonder against that skill. Elesee is right, rifle wouldn’t be viable without it. Engineers only have 3 weapon sets, let’s keep them viable shall we?

Actually its 5s, and there’s a very short CD to kit swaps so you can easily gain perma swiftness and 50% vigor uptime which is done with a simple kit swap. The only class I think that truly has perma vigor are eles since the CD on their vigor on crit trait has duration that matches the ICD. Mix with traited cantrips. Its permanent. As for gear shield yea I can see that being a reasonable change too decreasing the duration by a second to keep it at 20s.

Henrik.7560:

TBH theres more,

- Overcharged shot; 3s CC on a very short cooldown,
- Magnet; the fact it functions at a 1500 range is bullkitten, even 1200 pull on a short cd is still too powerful,
- Gear Shield; CD can be reduced to 20 seconds, that’s rediculous, should be 30s like warriors get.
- Thumper Turret; way too much HP considering it also can launch twice every 30s,
- Invigorating speed, yep this is for sure rediculous, they can perma vigor quite easily.

Overcharged shot is a self CC. Keep that in mind. If you miss it, you dead… High risk, high reward.
Warriors have excessive amount of other damage mitigation AND stability, engineers have none of those except for shields. So they are not comparable, no QQ for dual Endure pain? No QQ for Berserker Stance? No QQ for like 4 stability skills? Nope…
Thumper sucks.
Perma vigor… You never played Engi before, have you?

Anyway, point is, stop comparing classes overlapping skills without considering the whole.

Novuake.2691:

Henrik.7560:

TBH theres more,

- Overcharged shot; 3s CC on a very short cooldown,
- Magnet; the fact it functions at a 1500 range is bullkitten, even 1200 pull on a short cd is still too powerful,
- Gear Shield; CD can be reduced to 20 seconds, that’s rediculous, should be 30s like warriors get.
- Thumper Turret; way too much HP considering it also can launch twice every 30s,
- Invigorating speed, yep this is for sure rediculous, they can perma vigor quite easily.

Overcharged shot is a self CC. Keep that in mind. If you miss it, you dead… High risk, high reward.
Warriors have excessive amount of other damage mitigation AND stability, engineers have none of those except for shields. So they are not comparable, no QQ for dual Endure pain? No QQ for Berserker Stance? No QQ for like 4 stability skills? Nope…
Thumper sucks.
Perma vigor… You never played Engi before, have you?

Anyway, point is, stop comparing classes overlapping skills without considering the whole.

Yes though you forget the fact that it removes Immobilize, cripple and chill when used, and that high risk of using Overcharged Shot, because you can’t net shot them and then do OCS. Warriors kind of need stability, stances, and some sort of sustain because they’re melee class and most of their damage requires you to be in range of your target, melee combat?

Lucentfir.7430:

Yes though you forget the fact that it removes Immobilize, cripple and chill when used, and that high risk of using Overcharged Shot, because you can’t net shot them and then do OCS. Warriors kind of need stability, stances, and some sort of sustain because they’re melee class and most of their damage requires you to be in range of your target, melee combat?

I didn’t forget, nor am I saying that Warriors shouldn’t have those skills. I am proving a point. The one I made at the end of my previous post…
Are you saying that Engi should NOT have those same sustains?
Why should an Engi be defenseless in comparison to warrior? That is what you SEEM to be saying…
I am not hating on Warrior, just using it as an example.

Do not compare SKILLS to SKILLS without considering the WHOLE.

Example :
The shields of the Engi replaces ALL other classes damage mitigation skill AND CC immunity like Blur, Endure Pain, Stability, Magnetic Shield, ETC.

Overcharge Shot is not a high risk move! The self knockdown is so short it doesn’t matter! That’s assuming you miss your instant cast 3 second CC and that’s a very big if! And even if you do miss! Ooops! It’s back up in 12 seconds! If that’s not broken then…

Wahoo! Bye frands!

I do not see any reason to change the cool downs. A simple animation that offers a visual que and a cast time is enough. Healing turret or even turret placements in general need a cast time/animation as well in my opinion.

Rifle skills are so strong because we don’t have access to a secondary weapon set. It should be left alone, ideally.

I will refer to my signature on this one.

I’d actually love to have a cast time and clear animation on Overcharged Shot. Something like Pin Down or more recently Point Blank Shot. Make your target waste dodges by stowing the weapon/swapping to a kit. Similar like Magnet. Something that rewards good micro.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Rifle skills are so strong because we don’t have access to a secondary weapon set. It should be left alone, ideally.

Rifle skills are effective in control also because it’s made it that way.
It has the weakest auto attack among all rifle classes. (It is even weaker than warrior’s LB auto, mesmer’s GS in terms of damage)

Aomine.5012:

Phineas Poe.3018:

Rifle skills are so strong because we don’t have access to a secondary weapon set. It should be left alone, ideally.

Rifle skills are effective in control also because it’s made it that way.
It has the weakest auto attack among all rifle classes. (It is even weaker than warrior’s LB auto, mesmer’s GS in terms of damage)

I actually think the damage is pretty on par with Warrior’s Rifle AA. The build I run I see my damage bouncing between 1,2k to 1.7k on crit. Not only that but it pierces so you can’t really be body blocked. The only thing that I would say about rifle on Warrior that beats Engi’s rifle’s AA is the range.

Novuake.2691:

Lucentfir.7430:

Yes though you forget the fact that it removes Immobilize, cripple and chill when used, and that high risk of using Overcharged Shot, because you can’t net shot them and then do OCS. Warriors kind of need stability, stances, and some sort of sustain because they’re melee class and most of their damage requires you to be in range of your target, melee combat?

I didn’t forget, nor am I saying that Warriors shouldn’t have those skills. I am proving a point. The one I made at the end of my previous post…
Are you saying that Engi should NOT have those same sustains?
Why should an Engi be defenseless in comparison to warrior? That is what you SEEM to be saying…
I am not hating on Warrior, just using it as an example.

Do not compare SKILLS to SKILLS without considering the WHOLE.

Example :
The shields of the Engi replaces ALL other classes damage mitigation skill AND CC immunity like Blur, Endure Pain, Stability, Magnetic Shield, ETC.

I’m not saying that but Engineer from all the play styles is a ranged centric class, until we get the specialization and hammer. its a ranged centric class with a lot of AoE., soft and hard control, with sustain. Not to mention pretty mobile, it would be really silly to have the same sort of sustain as a melee class like warrior who has to get in your face to do damage. It shouldn’t be the engineer is defenseless, they need things to make people back off/peel, but they have that already, in a lot of different ways to do that. I just agree though with shield getting a 1s Shave of a 20s shield cd, or keeping it 3s with a slight CD change around 25-30s, without breaking it. if it happens hey I think its a good change, if not same old same old.

Elmo Benchwarmer.3025:

I’d actually love to have a cast time and clear animation on Overcharged Shot. Something like Pin Down or more recently Point Blank Shot. Make your target waste dodges by stowing the weapon/swapping to a kit. Similar like Magnet. Something that rewards good micro.

Until they successfully reflect it and you find yourself self-knocked back and then launched. Heh, just even dodging would give a good advantage to the opponent, due to the self knockback alone. Would end up being far too risky to use.

That skill is balanced over having a self-knockback and being instant. Both of them. You can’t simply change just one of those without seeing the balance go downhill.

Regarding Gear Shield, i don’t even see the issue. Sure, it is strong. I would say that’s the best skill in the kit.
And what’s wrong with that? We aren’t supposed to have only skills weaker than other classes’ one, some must be stronger too if we want to have some balance, and i find gear shield perfectly fits in that category. Tool Kit has neither the aoe capabilities of a bomb kit, nor its offensive capabilities. In exchange it offers some control – given by magnet (that is also a terribly overrated skill, imho, just due of not having some proper comparison, it being the only single target pull in the game) and defensive capabilities, with that shield. I can only see it as a fair tradeoff.

Manuhell.2759:

Elmo Benchwarmer.3025:

I’d actually love to have a cast time and clear animation on Overcharged Shot. Something like Pin Down or more recently Point Blank Shot. Make your target waste dodges by stowing the weapon/swapping to a kit. Similar like Magnet. Something that rewards good micro.

Until they successfully reflect it and you find yourself self-knocked back and then launched. Heh, just even dodging would give a good advantage to the opponent, due to the self knockback alone. Would end up being far too risky to use.

That skill is balanced over having a self-knockback and being instant. Both of them. You can’t simply change just one of those without seeing the balance go downhill.

Regarding Gear Shield, i don’t even see the issue. Sure, it is strong. I would say that’s the best skill in the kit.
And what’s wrong with that? We aren’t supposed to have only skills weaker than other classes’ one, some must be stronger too if we want to have some balance, and i find gear shield perfectly fits in that category. Tool Kit has neither the aoe capabilities of a bomb kit, nor its offensive capabilities. In exchange it offers some control – given by magnet (that is also a terribly overrated skill, imho, just due of not having some proper comparison, it being the only single target pull in the game) and defensive capabilities, with that shield. I can only see it as a fair tradeoff.

You’re underrating Toolkit the rest of the toolkit abilities. Pry bar will easily hit for 3-4k in the right builds, and it applies 5 stacks of Confusion, so in conjunction with Magnet pull you can easily hit them. Magnet is actually a lot more reliable than things like Scorpion Wire, and Spectral Grasp, if you want to compare pull skills, it can also be stowed to make people blow dodges . The only AoE in Toolkit is Box o Nails for AoE bleeds and cripple so mostly true. Gear Shield is a 3s Block on a 20s CD and you don’t have to worry too much about swapping at the right time since kit swaps have a very low CD.

Lucentfir.7430:

You’re underrating Toolkit the rest of the toolkit abilities. Pry bar will easily hit for 3-4k in the right builds, and it applies 5 stacks of Confusion, so in conjunction with Magnet pull you can easily hit them.

Pry bar is nice and scales well with power, but it still starts as 1.5x damage of a bomb autoattack. As many others hybrid skills we’ve got, we won’t be able to effectively use both the aspects it provides. A power build will see it as some burst damage (since the confusion damage will be negligible), a condition one will mainly use it for the confusion, celestials will do average with both.
Still, i doubt people take tool kit mainly for the pry bar. Elixir gun’s acid bomb would be better in that case, coming with a stun break on the toolbar as well.
(sure, we can take all those three kits i mentioned, but we also have no slots left if we do so…it is all a matter of tradeoffs, in the end)

Lucentfir.7430:

Magnet is actually a lot more reliable than things like Scorpion Wire, and Spectral Grasp, if you want to compare pull skills, it can also be stowed to make people blow dodges .

Dunno about the reliability. It seems to be that it harshly decreased after some patch, and i wouldn’t be surprised if it now has the same exact code of the other skills you mentioned. And while you can make others waste dodges by stowing the kit, i’m not ever sure that such a thing may be considered an intended behaviour – after all, the long cast time is supposed to be a disadvantage. Thus i doubt that it was balanced upon such a gameplay possibility.

Lucentfir.7430:

The only AoE in Toolkit is Box o Nails for AoE bleeds and cripple so mostly true. Gear Shield is a 3s Block on a 20s CD and you don’t have to worry too much about swapping at the right time since kit swaps have a very low CD.

Indeed, but you won’t take such a kit if the skills it provides aren’t worth enough, let alone traiting specifically for said kit.
Nerf gear shield, and the only worthwhile skill it remains in the kit is magnet. And only because we’ve got no other choices if we want a simple,single pull.

I would also like to add that balancing everything over fully traited kits is nonsensical at best. Traits are there to make utilities/weapon good. Not to make them average, or even viable (like the grenade kit, that was made absolutely useless in its base form).

Manuhell.2759:

Pry bar is nice and scales well with power, but it still starts as 1.5x damage of a bomb autoattack. As many others hybrid skills we’ve got, we won’t be able to effectively use both the aspects it provides. A power build will see it as some burst damage (since the confusion damage will be negligible), a condition one will mainly use it for the confusion, celestials will do average with both.

Still, i doubt people take tool kit mainly for the pry bar. Elixir gun’s acid bomb would be better in that case, coming with a stun break on the toolbar as well.
(sure, we can take all those three kits i mentioned, but we also have no slots left if we do so…it is all a matter of tradeoffs, in the end)

You’re correct in some points and wrong with others.

The bomb kit does reliably outdamage the tool kit over time, but let’s be honest: using the bomb kit in PvP without reliable CC support means you’re going to be eaten alive by guardians and thieves with significantly better melee burst; the grenade kit offers superior range for about 20% less overall power damage in its auto attack that is entirely made up through bleeds, vulnerability, chill, and (unblockable) poison. It’s the mainly used kit in PvE for a reason, and the same logic extends to PvP.

You really have to think about how the current meta is, and for how powerful rangers are at the moment, I honestly don’t see the bomb kit as a viable option unless you convince your team to build around your deficiencies that they wouldn’t have to if you just ran the grenade kit.

RE: Tool Kit and Pry Bar, you’re absolutely right to point out that with Celestial stats it does mediocre damage—both power and condition. It’s a skill that’s best used situationally, at a time when you anticipate your opponent bursting you down. For a lot of classes like mesmer and guardian, this burst is very easy to anticipate, and very easy to maximize the skill’s effective strength.

But I think you’re greatly underrating the skill’s mechanics: it’s a near-instant cast that can be stowed to proc Sigil of Intelligence, giving you a guaranteed crit. It’s also important to add that the Bomb Kit has a delay on its auto-attack, so you can more reliably guarantee a burst in damage versus the Bomb Kit with its delayed explosions. The best ranged classes will be more than capable of staying out of range of your bombs, and the best melee classes will just power through them and burst you down anyway.

Finally, I’m not quite sure of the statement you made at the end. Running three kits is more than viable. Since my return to GW2 in December I’ve done nothing but PvP with a three kit build (Grenade Kit, Elixir Gun, Tool Kit). Because I used to be a PvE and WvW only player, I didn’t accumulate too many wins to get Champion Genius. But since I’ve done relatively nothing but PvP since I returned, I finally got the title—getting my 150 wins in 253 games—primarily by carrying teams through solo-queue. If that doesn’t represent its viability I don’t know what does.