Guild Wars 2

So I understand why you removed the stunbreaker option from Elixir R. As an Endurance refiller, it was exceptionally powerful. And without it, we still have Elixir U and Elixir S. Elixir S is still a relatively amazing stunbreaker and is worth slotting.

My only problem is that by removing Elixir R’s stunbreaker while keeping Elixir U’s is that Elixir U is pretty useless as a stunbreaker.

Because of its mechanic as a Quickness skill, drinking it removes Endurance and cuts its regeneration by 50%, meaning you may break your stun, but your mobility is just as poor. And with the change to Stabilized Armor, why would you want to drink Elixir U and take 25% extra damage when you take 20% less while stunned? Or even 53% with Protection Injection? It just never makes sense to use it, and I see almost no one with it equipped in WvW or sPvP. The only time I ever personally use it is in PvE, and that’s for its projectile wall in Toss Elixir U.

I understand that for Warriors, Frenzy is a stunbreaker. It’s a skill that works similarly. But it doesn’t crush your Endurance pool, so it’s still a pretty good choice. So I’d like to see one of two things happen.

1. Remove the stunbreaker on Elixir U and move it to another skill.
2. Keep the stunbreaker on Elixir U, but remove the Endurance penalty.

For a patch that was designed to shift around stunbreakers to make them more viable, I was confused as to why Elixir U was left in its condition. Almost no PvP builds utilize it, and in PvE its biggest strength is its projectile wall. I understand that ArenaNet can’t get to everything in one patch, but the change to Elixir R just makes the issue with Elixir U all the more glaring and something that I think needs to be addressed.

Thoughts?

Well, it either removes Endurance or makes you take 25% more damage.
But while you’re right, Elixir U isn’t really all that weak. I guess the issue is more that there are too few stuns used in non-gank situations (that is, defensively). Because Elixir U would be ~perfect to overpower someone stunning you for defensive purposes.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Because of its mechanic as a Quickness skill, drinking it removes Endurance and cuts its regeneration by 50%, meaning you may break your stun, but your mobility is just as poor. And with the change to Stabilized Armor, why would you want to drink Elixir U and take 25% extra damage when you take 20% less while stunned? Or even 53% with Protection Injection? It just never makes sense to use it, and I see almost no one with it equipped in WvW or sPvP. The only time I ever personally use it is in PvE, and that’s for its projectile wall in Toss Elixir U.

(WvW/sPvP)

You are rationalizing that the negative side effects are the reason that players aren’t using Elixir U. IE: Why destroy my endurance and be in just as bad a situation? Why take 25% more damage when I’d be doing better sitting in the stun with 20% less damage? ETC.

Phineas Poe.3018:

I understand that for Warriors, Frenzy is a stunbreaker. It’s a skill that works similarly. But it doesn’t crush your Endurance pool, so it’s still a pretty good choice. So I’d like to see one of two things happen.

Although I consider the Engineer Elixir U’s negative side effects to be the worst, because it takes another reaction to re-formulate your strategy on the fly, in reality, these negative side effects are just as crippling to the other classes. In every single way, just as bad. That’s why you see these skills on a massive WvW/sPvP decline.

But beside all of these details around the negative side effects, the real reason why these skills aren’t taken is that there’s no justifiable reward.

Look at the Engineer profession – what mechanics could possibly take advantage of a temporary quickness to actually make a difference in effectiveness? The correct answer is auto-attack spam. That’s really the only thing, profession wide, that synergizes with quickness properly – Unfortunately, Engineers have some of the most feeble auto-attacks in-game due to the class mechanics compensating Engineers in other ways.

Giving Engineers a quickness utility is about as appropriate as giving Mesmers a temporary buff to their healing stat of 1,000, or giving guardians a buff to their condition damage by 1,000. If there’s just no way for the profession to harness the ability, it’s quite pointless, despite being fairly balanced, cross-profession.

Engineers need for this ability to actually synergize with a burst combo – right now, a common stance is that the utility lies in reviving and stomping. Unfortunately, this perceived utility is completely meaningless at this stage in the WvW / sPvP meta – you can’t survive a stomp, especially with the negative side-effects, and quickness stomping still has a delay at the end of animation so that the time saved you end up peeing away. If you thought surviving a stomp was bad, wait till you try to survive a revive.

Phineas Poe.3018:

1. Remove the stunbreaker on Elixir U and move it to another skill.
2. Keep the stunbreaker on Elixir U, but remove the Endurance penalty.

Response to #1 – If the stunbreaker was swapped to something else, Elixir U would be so pillaged & spent, that it would resemble a veteran prostitute. Every other quickness utility is a stunbreak, cross-profession. You’re basically saying: ok ‘kitten it’, I’d rather the already better stunbreaks get better. But to be honest, I feel like none of these utilities, cross-profession, should be stunbreaks – just use the budget to make the darn ability better! You 100% need a 2nd stunbreak anyways!

Response to #2 – Just checking, you realize that all of the side-effects are mutually exclusive? You mean remove the endurance drain from the ‘pool’ of options so you either take 25% more damage or cannot be healed? Uhh. Another change that would affect a total of.. not a darn thing.

Elixir U needs a re-purpose. And coincidentally enough all of the other quickness abilities need a little nudge, so It’d be a perfect time to make a pass.

What do you guys think?

Chaith.8256:

Response to #1 – If the stunbreaker was swapped to something else, Elixir U would be so pillaged & spent, that it would resemble a veteran prostitute. Every other quickness utility is a stunbreak, cross-profession. You’re basically saying: ok ‘kitten it’, I’d rather the already better stunbreaks get better. But to be honest, I feel like none of these utilities, cross-profession, should be stunbreaks – just use the budget to make the darn ability better! You 100% need a 2nd stunbreak anyways!

Well, I use Frenzy on my Warrior all the time, and would prefer it be left alone. That’s not the topic of the conversation here, and I disagree that Elixir U should operate in ways similar to other Quickness skills, especially since Elixir U being a stunbreaker is a recent change (from March 26).

My issue stems from the fact that they felt elixirs had too many stunbreakers, so they removed the best one we had while leaving the one nobody uses. With option 1, players will still take Elixir U as they did before—for its projectile wall—and players will also have access to another stunbreaker on a skill that actually makes sense for the class to operate like a stunbreaker.

Chaith.8256:

Response to #2 – Just checking, you realize that all of the side-effects are mutually exclusive? You mean remove the endurance drain from the ‘pool’ of options so you either take 25% more damage or cannot be healed? Uhh. Another change that would affect a total of.. not a darn thing.

Quickening Zephyr was removed as one of the effects when Elixir U was made a stunbreaker, so it’s either 25% extra damage or the depleted Endurance. My idea for option 2 was quite simple: remove any chance for the reduced Endurance.

The only other class that has to deal with the Endurance penalty with their Quickness skill is also the best burst profession in the game that can near-perma Stealth so it’s not a problem.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Well, I use Frenzy on my Warrior all the time, and would prefer it be left alone. That’s not the topic of the conversation here, and I disagree that Elixir U should operate in ways similar to other Quickness skills, especially since Elixir U being a stunbreaker is a recent change (from March 26).

My issue stems from the fact that they felt elixirs had too many stunbreakers, so they removed the best one we had while leaving the one nobody uses. With option 1, players will still take Elixir U as they did before—for its projectile wall—and players will also have access to another stunbreaker on a skill that actually makes sense for the class to operate like a stunbreaker.

Elixir U was changed to be a stunbreak simply for the consistency of being similar to the other cross-profession quickness utilities, but I feel it changed little.

What utility that happens to make sense for an Elixir U build do you suppose will have a stunbreak magically added to it? (If the Stunbreak from Elixir U was swapped.)

You’re saying if they remove the stunbreak from Elixir U, that will make players take Elixir U ‘as they did before’ and another Stunbreak in their build, LOL. The problem from my perspective is that nobody is taking Elixir U right now and the stunbreak contradicts the usage of the utility, so another stunbreak is needed – making the stunbreak on Elixir U to be meaninglessly destroying the budget for the utility.

Maybe there’s a a misunderstanding because I don’t PvE, but Elixir U hardly gets any play in the rest of the game, from what I’ve seen. I think Elixir R would be the superior choice in every case where an Engineer build can’t benefit from another kit’s utility, or a turret, or gadget, and just had an ‘empty slot’ for a non-stunbreak utility, if that were to ever happen. (It will never happen to my builds.)

Phineas Poe.3018:

Quickening Zephyr was removed as one of the effects when Elixir U was made a stunbreaker, so it’s either 25% extra damage or the depleted Endurance. My idea for option 2 was quite simple: remove any chance for the reduced Endurance.

The only other class that has to deal with the Endurance penalty with their Quickness skill is also the best burst profession in the game that can near-perma Stealth so it’s not a problem.

You mentioned before you like the stunbreak on your warrior’s frenzy, that’s great. Cause what happens to Elixir U when you start with 3 random effects and take away 2 of them is.. you get Frenzy. A word for word copied utility, under a different name.

It will never happen from a flavour perspective, and still does nothing to address the problems it has in WvW / sPvP.

Chaith.8256:

You’re saying if they remove the stunbreak from Elixir U, that will make players take Elixir U ‘as they did before’ and another Stunbreak in their build, LOL.

No, that is not what I’m saying.

It doesn’t matter if people don’t take Elixir U after they remove its stunbreaker. Its Toss ability already provides a significant amount of utility in PvE. What matters is that ArenaNet thinks people use it in sPvP/WvW as a stunbreaker right now when we both know nobody does.

The problem is: Elixir U is a crappy option for a stunbreaker that either depletes your Endurance or heightens damage taken. Compare that to Elixir R which refills your Endurance or Elixir S gives 3 seconds of invulnerability.

They never should have put it on the skill to begin with, especially since now they feel it’s necessary to remove Elixir R’s stunbreaker because elixirs had “too many.”

Chaith.8256:

Maybe there’s a a misunderstanding because I don’t PvE, but Elixir U hardly gets any play in the rest of the game, from what I’ve seen. I think Elixir R would be the superior choice in every case where an Engineer build can’t benefit from another kit’s utility, or a turret, or gadget, and just had an ‘empty slot’ for a non-stunbreak utility, if that were to ever happen. (It will never happen to my builds.)

Elixir R is great when you’re playing in pick-up groups. But if you’re doing a guild run of Arah p3 or CoE p1 that you’ve done a thousand times, nobody is going to die and it’s a waste slot. You’re better off taking something that will instead bolster your DPS, and Toss Elixir U is probably the best at this. It gives you Quickness and a chance for Wall of Reflection, which absolutely destroys some bosses like Lupi.

Chaith.8256:

You mentioned before you like the stunbreak on your warrior’s frenzy, that’s great. Cause what happens to Elixir U when you start with 3 random effects and take away 2 of them is.. you get Frenzy. A word for word copied utility, under a different name.

It will never happen from a flavour perspective, and still does nothing to address the problems it has in WvW / sPvP.

Warriors also have thousands more HP and higher base armor, so 25% increased damage doesn’t affect them as much as Engineers. I care little about how things appear from a “flavor” perspective. Currently Elixir U is a bad choice for a stunbreaker and they need to either buff it or remove the stunbreaker and put it on something else. Ideally: back onto Elixir R. I’m not calling for homogenization of all stunbreakers or Quickness skills. To be frank, I’m not exactly sure why they penalize players for Quickness skills in the first place.

Now are you ready to have a serious conversation or do you want to keep screwing around, “LOL?”

Phineas Poe.3018:

With option 1 (remove stunbreak), players will still take Elixir U as they did before—for its projectile wall—and players will also have access to another stunbreaker on a skill that actually makes sense for the class to operate like a stunbreaker.

Chaith.8256:

You’re saying if they remove the stunbreak from Elixir U, that will make players take Elixir U ‘as they did before’ and another Stunbreak in their build, LOL.

Phineas Poe.3018:

No, that is not what I’m saying.

Whelp, if you’re saying that a player has access to another stunbreaker, you might want to clarify that it’s not actually in his build, and he’s an Engineer running a yolo-nostunbreak-build. Again, I’ll clarify, I’m coming from a WvW/PvP perspective, where Elixir U is not fine. And having no stunbreak is not fine, Mr. PvE hero. So keep in mind that background when you read my posts, haha.

Phineas Poe.3018:

It doesn’t matter if people don’t take Elixir U after they remove its stunbreaker. Its Toss ability already provides a significant amount of utility in PvE.

So you’re cool with just outright nerfing Elixir U with no compensation because the PvE crew is tossing Elixir U to kill that Lupi guy. Very elegant. I’m sure you won’t have to adjust the other skill you’d decide to tack the stunbreak onto either. Balance is fun!

Chaith.8256:

Cause what happens to Elixir U when you start with 3 random effects and take away 2 of them is.. you get Frenzy. A word for word copied utility, under a different name. It’ll never happen from a flavour perspective.

Phineas Poe.3018:

I care little about how things appear from a “flavor” perspective.

Phineas Poe.3018:

I’m not calling for homogenization of all stunbreakers

Yeah.. you just would rather give Engineers Frenzy, word for word. And you can’t see anything wrong with that? It’s not cool or a good change just because you don’t want to homogenize every stunbreaker.

(Swap Stunbreakers) Ideally: back onto Elixir R

No. It was not okay with how massively popular Elixir R was as a stunbreak – almost no other stunbreaks were getting play after the nerfs to Elixir S. It’s still a widely used utility, which gets play in all game modes for support oriented builds. I personally prefer a 2nd kit, but it’s highly competitive.

Elixir R was just reduced to 30 seconds. Could you imagine if you just slapped a stunbreak back on it? It’d be like reversing a proper balance change and making it worse. And then Elixir U would be that much more under-represented. In no way would a change like this represent good game design or style.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Now are you ready to have a serious conversation or do you want to keep screwing around, “LOL?”

That’s kinda uncalled for.

Chaith.8256:

Again, I’ll clarify, I’m coming from a WvW/PvP perspective, where Elixir U is not fine.

And yet you’re sitting here arguing with me about changing it.

Chaith.8256:

And having no stunbreak is not fine, Mr. PvE hero. So keep in mind that background when you read my posts, haha.

Well, I play every aspect of the game, Mr. PvP hero.

I know you and the other 10 other people that tourney PvP seriously think the game revolves around you, but shelve the elitism for once, “haha.”

Phineas Poe.3018:

Chaith.8256:

Again, I’ll clarify, I’m coming from a WvW/PvP perspective, where Elixir U is not fine.

And yet you’re sitting here arguing with me about changing it.

Chaith.8256:

And having no stunbreak is not fine, Mr. PvE hero. So keep in mind that background when you read my posts, haha.

Well, I play every aspect of the game, Mr. PvP hero.

I know you and the other 10 other people that tourney PvP seriously think the game revolves around you, but shelve the elitism for once, “haha.”

Again, very uncalled for. I won’t reply again.

Uncalled for?

Maybe you shouldn’t walk around calling people who’ve played several hundred sPvP matches and racked up thousands of WvW kills “PvE heroes” like you’re somebody clever. What goes around comes around. I’m all for open discussion as I’ve had the luxury of having with many people around here.

But I don’t stand for people who walk into my threads who obviously just have an axe to grind.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Uncalled for?

Maybe you shouldn’t walk around calling people who’ve played several hundred sPvP matches and racked up thousands of WvW kills “PvE heroes” like you’re somebody clever. What goes around comes around. I’m all for open discussion as I’ve had the luxury of having with many people around here.

But I don’t stand for people who walk into my threads who obviously just have an axe to grind.

Now you’ve lost the privilege to speak to him , talk about cutting your losses prior.

TheOneNOnlyGeneralBama.9586:

Now you’ve lost the privilege to speak to him.

I’m sure I’ll lose a lot of sleep over it.

Chaith.8256:

No. It was not okay with how massively popular Elixir R was as a stunbreak – almost no other stunbreaks were getting play after the nerfs to Elixir S. It’s still a widely used utility, which gets play in all game modes for support oriented builds. I personally prefer a 2nd kit, but it’s highly competitive.

The other stunbreaks weren’t being used simply because they are awful.
Exactly the same reason why almost no one uses Elixir S anymore.
And instead of making them decent enough, they pulled Elixir R at their level. And now the utility itself is useless.

Elixir S used to be on a scale 1-10 a 12 (OP)
Now its merely a 6 (imo) lmao but its ok….

Manuhell.2759:

Chaith.8256:

No. It was not okay with how massively popular Elixir R was as a stunbreak – almost no other stunbreaks were getting play after the nerfs to Elixir S. It’s still a widely used utility, which gets play in all game modes for support oriented builds. I personally prefer a 2nd kit, but it’s highly competitive.

The other stunbreaks weren’t being used simply because they are awful.
Exactly the same reason why almost no one uses Elixir S anymore.
And instead of making them decent enough, they pulled Elixir R at their level. And now the utility itself is useless.

2 extra dodge rolls every 24 seconds on top of Vigor and a Sigil of Energy is actually still quite ridiculous, especially if you can slot Runes of the Adventurer in there too.

I think the one thing that would make Elixir R more viable as it is right now would be making it an instant cast. Right now there’s that chugging animation delay, which makes it kinda awkward to use.

TheOneNOnlyGeneralBama.9586:

Elixir S used to be on a scale 1-10 a 12 (OP)
Now its merely a 6 (imo) lmao but its ok….

Elixir S still has plenty of use in WvW, I think. It’s also our only source of Stability.

I’d go with removing the Endurance penalty with Elixir U — in fact, why not just remove the penalties entirely, since it’s too underpowered as it is, removing the penalties won’t really impact it as much.

I’d propose another option: Make the oft-neglected Elixir C a stunbreaker too, especially it’s toolbelt skill. That would open up another option for Engineers to play with.

Phineas Poe.3018:

2 extra dodge rolls every 24 seconds on top of Vigor and a Sigil of Energy is actually still quite ridiculous, especially if you can slot Runes of the Adventurer in there too.

I think the one thing that would make Elixir R more viable as it is right now would be making it an instant cast. Right now there’s that chugging animation delay, which makes it kinda awkward to use.

Yep, the cast time is exactly why i see it near useless now. Something that has the only use of getting you endurance will be used when you strictly need that endurance…and if you really need to dodge, you probably won’t have the time to use it.
Also, by itself, it is really weak. Thief’s Signet of Agility refills endurance and cures one condition to him and to the allies in the area, has a passive effect (gives precision), has got the same cooldown and it is instant.

Regarding Elixir U…dunno. Maybe they should change it entirely?

Manuhell.2759:

Regarding Elixir U…dunno. Maybe they should change it entirely?

As in, removing Quickness?

Phineas Poe.3018:

Manuhell.2759:

Regarding Elixir U…dunno. Maybe they should change it entirely?

As in, removing Quickness?

Well, either they put some drawback different from the ones given by the other quickness skills (but i can’t think of one) or they change it entirely.
Putting quickness without a drawback would be deemed too strong, after all.

Edit: i’ve got an idea, though. What if it gave quickness and a relevant power/condition damage bonus for those 6 seconds, but it locked the recharge of the skills during that time?
A sort of “burst now, pay later” type of skill, since your skills will remain in cooldown longer.

Overcharged Shot, Elixir U to get back up fast and burst. I felt that’s what it was for.

Hmm everyone keeps saying no one uses Elixir U. While i agree its a dangerous tool in sPvP & tPvP, in PvE and WvW its pretty BOSS you get a wall and Quickness.

I run a P/P condition Engi and sometimes a SD Rifle build. When i Run my condition build i like elixir U for the burst

But to get on topic, i think removing the stun breaker from it would be kinda lame seeing as other classes get a stun breaker on quickness. You need to realize that a stun breaker is not always a defensive move at times its important to break a stun so you can finish someone off, in those cases 25% more dmg or no endurance is no big deal because the other player is trying to GTFO and your not in any danger.

Im an aggressive player so high risk high reward skills pay off for my play style and i would never use Elixir U defensibly its more of a finisher for me.

Just food for thought i am bummed about the elixir R nerf but overall i dont notice my build changed too much if you need a stun break use the boots the speed boost is great in 1vx battles

Phineas Poe.3018:

Manuhell.2759:

Chaith.8256:

No. It was not okay with how massively popular Elixir R was as a stunbreak – almost no other stunbreaks were getting play after the nerfs to Elixir S. It’s still a widely used utility, which gets play in all game modes for support oriented builds. I personally prefer a 2nd kit, but it’s highly competitive.

The other stunbreaks weren’t being used simply because they are awful.
Exactly the same reason why almost no one uses Elixir S anymore.
And instead of making them decent enough, they pulled Elixir R at their level. And now the utility itself is useless.

2 extra dodge rolls every 24 seconds on top of Vigor and a Sigil of Energy is actually still quite ridiculous, especially if you can slot Runes of the Adventurer in there too.

I think the one thing that would make Elixir R more viable as it is right now would be making it an instant cast. Right now there’s that chugging animation delay, which makes it kinda awkward to use.

TheOneNOnlyGeneralBama.9586:

Elixir S used to be on a scale 1-10 a 12 (OP)
Now its merely a 6 (imo) lmao but its ok….

Elixir S still has plenty of use in WvW, I think. It’s also our only source of Stability.

Well 6 is pretty good wouldnt you agree?

I absolutely agree with Phineas on this one.

From a PvE side of things, Elixir U is hard-pressed to find a niche in my usual rotation. The projectile wall is amazing and will always be on my bar in nearly every PvE situation. I just don’t find the quickness that appealing. It is very nice in a pinch for damage but I find myself sometimes never even using the active ability.

I don’t see a problem with taking Elixir U and another stun break as Phineas said due to the WALL that is far too useful.(maybe the EG toolbelt that was newly changed for instance). Edit: Keep in mind that I’m only talking about PvE here, where the EG is also almost glued to my bar.

For the sPvP/WvW players complaining about his specific suggestions, come on guys.. there’s a very simple solution to that problem and it’s called skill split. Make skills different for PvE and PvP, then nobody(PvPers vs PvEers) has to fight over the ramifications of certain skill changes.

I’m not going to suggest anything concrete here, but I believe that U needs a rework at the very least. For starters maybe stop giving engineers 2 random choices in one skill that are ripped off from other professions in the first place, it speaks to laziness.

Luckily we got 1 extra stunbreaker on the Elixirgun so a lot of people tend to forgive Anet, for the fact we “lost” 2 stunbreakers by putting them on abilities where they just dont work or make sense.

Terrahero.9358:

Luckily we got 1 extra stunbreaker on the Elixirgun so a lot of people tend to forgive Anet, for the fact we “lost” 2 stunbreakers by putting them on abilities where they just dont work or make sense.

My problem with that, though, is that the Elixir Gun is still poorly optimized for PvP. What role does it serve? I’ve been bouncing ideas off other Engineers in my guild over the past week and none of us have been able to come up with any way to make it work. The Bomb Kit, Grenade Kit, Flamethrower, and Tool Kit are just superior options in every way, so there’s really little reason to take the Elixir Gun at all except the novelty of it—or the gimmick in saying that you finally have a stunbreaker in your multi-kit build.

I don’t consider myself like the coolest kid ever in PvP, but every Engineer I’ve seen trying to wield the Elixir Gun just got destroyed by my bombs and Pry Bar. Super Elixir just doesn’t cleanse enough conditions that we can put out—or Necromancers for that matter. And it doesn’t provide anywhere near the amount of pressure through Weakness that a Warrior can with the help of stuns and knockdowns.

I guess I’m going a bit off-tangent here, but Healing Mist being a stunbreaker doesn’t excuse the loss of Elixir R or the current uselessness of Elixir U. I love it in PvE, because I wield the Elixir Gun as if it it’s grafted to my arm for its OP group condition removal, but it’s not an option in PvP, similar to Elixir U currently.

Terrahero.9358:

Luckily we got 1 extra stunbreaker on the Elixirgun so a lot of people tend to forgive Anet, for the fact we “lost” 2 stunbreakers by putting them on abilities where they just dont work or make sense.

That’s only luck if you use Elixir gun! Although thinking about it….might fix that into my build and use for other heal and acid bomb.

tattoohead.3217:

Hmm everyone keeps saying no one uses Elixir U. While i agree its a dangerous tool in sPvP & tPvP, in PvE and WvW its pretty BOSS you get a wall and Quickness.

I run a P/P condition Engi and sometimes a SD Rifle build. When i Run my condition build i like elixir U for the burst

I don’t disagree with any of this. Quickness is great for getting a quick Bleed stack going. And a projectile wall is useful against bosses. I’m not contesting any of this. The problem is its existence as a stunbreaker; they’re small feet with such big shoes to fill.

Dirame.8521:

Overcharged Shot, Elixir U to get back up fast and burst. I felt that’s what it was for.

tattoohead.3217:

Im an aggressive player so high risk high reward skills pay off for my play style and i would never use Elixir U defensibly its more of a finisher for me.

These are both very niche situations that work with only a handful of builds. Don’t you think that elixir-spec Engineers are being thrown a step back by being forced to use a stunbreaker that only shines in select situations compared to Elixir R?

I just don’t think it really suits the style of most Engineers, either, especially when your only alternative is Elixir S—useful in its own right in WvW but is awful for PvP Engineers because the second you go invulnerable you’re no longer contesting or holding a capture point.

So what are we left with?

tattoohead.3217:

if you need a stun break use the boots the speed boost is great in 1vx battles

Slick Shoes are a gadget, and as a gadget require different traits to be most useful from elixirs. Traits in Tools. My build does not have room for more than 10 points in Tools, which is usually taken up by Speedy Kits.

So this is not a proper solution. Are we supposed to just roll over and accept that Elixir R is no longer a stunbreaker? Okay. Whatever. I’m fine with that. But make Elixir U actually worth using as an alternative. If that cannot be done, just put it on a different skill. Put it on Elixir C or Elixir B.

That’s all I’m asking.

Being forced to rework my entire build into using skills like Slick Shoes and the Elixir Gun is not what I think ArenaNet had in mind with this patch. The idea was increasing the number of builds out there—not simply shifting the weight around.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Terrahero.9358:

Luckily we got 1 extra stunbreaker on the Elixirgun so a lot of people tend to forgive Anet, for the fact we “lost” 2 stunbreakers by putting them on abilities where they just dont work or make sense.

My problem with that, though, is that the Elixir Gun is still poorly optimized for PvP. What role does it serve? I’ve been bouncing ideas off other Engineers in my guild over the past week and none of us have been able to come up with any way to make it work. The Bomb Kit, Grenade Kit, Flamethrower, and Tool Kit are just superior options in every way, so there’s really little reason to take the Elixir Gun at all except the novelty of it—or the gimmick in saying that you finally have a stunbreaker in your multi-kit build.

I don’t consider myself like the coolest kid ever in PvP, but every Engineer I’ve seen trying to wield the Elixir Gun just got destroyed by my bombs and Pry Bar. Super Elixir just doesn’t cleanse enough conditions that we can put out—or Necromancers for that matter. And it doesn’t provide anywhere near the amount of pressure through Weakness that a Warrior can with the help of stuns and knockdowns.

I guess I’m going a bit off-tangent here, but Healing Mist being a stunbreaker doesn’t excuse the loss of Elixir R or the current uselessness of Elixir U. I love it in PvE, because I wield the Elixir Gun as if it it’s grafted to my arm for its OP group condition removal, but it’s not an option in PvP, similar to Elixir U currently.

Oh no i fully agree with you. But unlike with Elixir U and Thumper Turret atleast the Stunbreaker itself is good and doesnt conflict with the ability its tacked on (thumper turret) or comes with a serious risk of making things worst if you use it (elixir U).

And thats the real issue i suppose. They didnt change how many stunbreakers you could find among the Elixir-type skills. But they changed it from a skill that made sense, and feels naked and underpowered without it, and placed it on a skill it makes no sense whatsoever.

It wasnt even the case of moving around stunbreakers to different skilltypes. It was, in short, a nerf to Elixir R. Thats it. They removed the stunbreaker and symbolically put it on Elixir U where it doesnt actually do anything. Just to say “see, elixirs, still 2 stunbreakers”.

I could see the stunbreak being moving to Elixir C, at least with that it could serve as a proper utility; serving multiple roles. As I see it, stunbreakers are used defensively and from a PvP perspective it’s used to protect against burst. Also, as it stands in the current meta, a lot of burst is currently coming from condi-nuking necros, so having the stunbreak shifting from U to C would be a nice counter.

So elixir C with 10-20 alchemy: 32 sec cd, all conditions into boons,and breaks stun….sounds nasty.
What I think is that the engineer simply needs more elixirs.

( S )hrink
( R )evive
( B )oost
( H )eal
( C )leanse
( U )______?
( X )mute (ie: transform)

I’ve never been able to figure out U.

Imma vote for

( U )seless

nakoda.4213:

( S )hrink
( R )evive
( B )oost
( H )eal
( C )leanse
( U )______?
( X )mute (ie: transform)

I’ve never been able to figure out U.

Imma vote for

( U )seless

LMAO! So true! But the real one is utility (Gain a utility skill from another profession). Also Elixir B can be Elixir B(oon) and Elixir R can be Elixir R(estore) (Restore your endurance)

of course, ( u )tility; and i think ( b )oon and ( r )estore are much more accurate, though my inner grammarian wants to keep it “boost” since can be a transitive verb, though now that makes ( u )tility not fit.

don’t ever be anal retentive, it can be quite kittening.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

nakoda.4213:

( S )hrink
( R )evive
( B )oost
( H )eal
( C )leanse
( U )______?
( X )mute (ie: transform)

I’ve never been able to figure out U.

Imma vote for

( U )seless

LMAO! So true! But the real one is utility (Gain a utility skill from another profession). Also Elixir B can be Elixir B(oon) and Elixir R can be Elixir R(estore) (Restore your endurance)

I took them more as…

( S )tomp (as it’s not just a shrink, but they all work for stomping)
( B )attle (as it’s not all boons, just offensive ones)
( R )ecovery
( H )eal
( C )leanse
( U )ltimate (to be ironic)

[Edit]

From the wiki -

‘S’ could signify ‘Shrink’ or ‘Size’.
Nicknamed “Elixir Stomp” because all three of its effects aid in the execution of fallen foes in PvP.

The ‘B’ likely represents boon.

‘H’ could signify ‘Healing’.

‘R’ could signify ‘Recover’

‘C’ could signify ‘Convert’, ‘Cleanse’ or ‘Condition’.

‘U’ could stand for ‘Utility’ as it triggers a utility skill from another profession.

- Nothing on there about X -

Elixir S (ucks you cant use any skills anymore when you use this.)
Elixir C (an remove every condition. Really, every single one. Except Torment.)
Elixir R (eally? You are still using this? REALLY?)
Elixir U (seless Elixir to give Stunbreaker to. So here it is.)
Elixir B (est allround Elixir. Wonder if we can stack even more boons on this…)

Elixir H (ahahaha, still Engineer? The first letter of the other Elixirs says all it needs about what we think about you)

(dont take stuff on the internet to serious)

The main problem with Elixir U is the RNG. With Frenzy, you know what you’re getting. So you use it when you can afford to burst without fear of being attacked too hard. But you know that if it happens, you can still dodge and plan ahead. Elixir U’s RNG means you have to guess what might happen when you use it and then scan for what happened (did my endurance go down? am I frenzying? scan for icon, there it is…).

Also, I have to agree with Chaith, in that we don’t really have many skills that truly shine with Quickness. Unlike Rangers & Warriors, we don’t have any great autoattacks that pumping out fast will really = a true burst. Faster flame jet…I guess that’s helpful with the burning? Faster rifle auto…I guess that’s nice when firing through a group? Faster TK/bomb auto…rather not in melee range.

Uses for Elixir U:
-Rapid Fire Tool Belt Skills + Static Discharge whilst unloading on the target with Tool Kit Attacks. In full zerker gear I’ve pulled off 6.1k on Thwak and 6.4 with Crowbar, add that to Surprise Shot, Throw Wrench, and Rocket Kick, and that Frenzy everyone says is a waste of time just destroyed someone who thought he had the jump on you.

- Breaking an enemy CC opener (like Basalisk Venom) and taking the offensive. Want to survive the spike? Stop running and @!#$%ing hit ‘em! That enemy HP bar isn’t going to drain itself! If they’re hitting hard chances are they can’t take much in return, and Elixir U gives you that opportunity to show them what’s up.

In short if you just want to run away and hide when the other kid pushes you off the swing, then sure Elixir S is a better slot choice. But if you want to get up and immediately punch that kid in the teeth then, my friend, Elixir U is for U.

@Obscure: That made me laugh. You’re right though. Elixir U is an offensive weapon. People see “stun break” and think defensively, but it can be used offensively.

The problem though, is that after you stun break and start rocking out some damage, you’re either out of endurance (no biggie if you’re unleashing the pain) or taking double damage (kind of a big deal). I don’t want to break a thief’s initial stun, unleash my combo, only to take double his post-opener damage. RNG is killer in this case.

Seras.5702:

@Obscure: That made me laugh. You’re right though. Elixir U is an offensive weapon. People see “stun break” and think defensively, but it can be used offensively.

The problem though, is that after you stun break and start rocking out some damage, you’re either out of endurance (no biggie if you’re unleashing the pain) or taking double damage (kind of a big deal). I don’t want to break a thief’s initial stun, unleash my combo, only to take double his post-opener damage. RNG is killer in this case.

I’m just going to point out that Frenzy causes one to take 25% more damage, and the Protection boon reduces incoming direct damage by 33%. Protection Injection thus goes with Elixir U like pizza goes with beer. I personally prefer using Lyssa runes so when I activate Elixir U I also activate another extremely underrated skill by my fellow Engineers, Elixir X. Tornado and Brute (once you get used to how each of them are effective) are both gross with Quickness up, and every boon (including Protection and Vigor) for the duration of Frenzy or Haste off of the Lyssa runes helps reduce the negative effects of U (notably also Lyssa runes are a condition clear).

At any rate when I pop Elixir U I’m focused on spending those few seconds hitting back as hard and fast as I can regardless of Haste or Frenzy. The buff lasts a very short time, and I dare say to short to care which one you got. Use boons to dull down the negative effects of Elixir U passively, so you can focus on being aggressive.

The only thing I’m not sure about is if it ends up being 25% more of 33% less damage or 33% less of 25% more damage…

Edit: @ Aberrant

- Nothing on there about X -

(X)enomorphic: [zen-uh-mawr-fik] (adj.)

1. noting or pertaining to a mineral grain that does not have its characteristic crystalline form but has a form impressed on it by surrounding grains; anhedral 2. in an unusual form; having a strange form

I always think Frenzy is double damage. Not the first time I’ve written that. I may learn eventually.

Never thought of using U with X. That sounds like something fun to try out.

Seras.5702:

I always think Frenzy is double damage. Not the first time I’ve written that. I may learn eventually.

Never thought of using U with X. That sounds like something fun to try out.

It’s great fun, and if you don’t mind a bit of guidance on build choice, go for Potent Elixirs and Fast Acting Elixirs. You get U on a 40 second CD and have a longer quickness duration as well as X on an 84 second CD also with a noticeably longer duration (around 4 or 5 seconds). If you don’t want that many points in Alchemy just pick up Fast Acting Elicits for the shorter CD’s and snag Elite Supplies off the inventions line for longer X duration.

I personally run 20 in inventions and 10 in alchemy for this combination as I prefer having the minor trait that recharges my heal skill over a minor trait that converts conditions to boons with a horrible 8% proc rate (wish they’d make it like 25% on a 5 second CD after proc, but that’s talk for a different thread).

If you want a good stun breaker related to an elixir than its the elixir guns tool belt skill. with 30% TBRR it has 30 sec cd.
Elixir U is a bad joke. Its TB has some use but else i dont know why they exactly put the stun breaker onto it…..rtaher elxir c…..

BoyLer.9732:

If you want a good stun breaker related to an elixir than its the elixir guns tool belt skill. with 30% TBRR it has 30 sec cd.
Elixir U is a bad joke. Its TB has some use but else i dont know why they exactly put the stun breaker onto it…..rtaher elxir c…..

Base Reason Why Elixir U is a Stunbreaker:

-Thief: Haste: -50% Endurance Regeneration, +50% activation speed, BREAKS STUN.

-Warrior: Frenzy: +25% incoming damage, +50% activation speed, BREAKS STUN.

-Ranger: Quickening Zephyr: -50% Endurance Regeneration, +50% activation speed, BREAKS STUN.

Obscure One.4357:

BoyLer.9732:

If you want a good stun breaker related to an elixir than its the elixir guns tool belt skill. with 30% TBRR it has 30 sec cd.
Elixir U is a bad joke. Its TB has some use but else i dont know why they exactly put the stun breaker onto it…..rtaher elxir c…..

Base Reason Why Elixir U is a Stunbreaker:

-Thief: Haste: -50% Endurance Regeneration, +50% activation speed, BREAKS STUN.

-Warrior: Frenzy: +25% incoming damage, +50% activation speed, BREAKS STUN.

-Ranger: Quickening Zephyr: -50% Endurance Regeneration, +50% activation speed, BREAKS STUN.

Well of Power: Converts conditions into boons. Breaks stuns.

Contemplation of Purity: Converts conditions into boons. Breaks stuns.

Elixir C: Converts conditions into boons. Does not break stuns.

I don’t disagree with the assumption that Elixir U was made a stunbreaker to behave similar to other Quickness abilities. I just disagree that such a basis should be set in stone or toss around the idea that all class skills operate similarly when they provide the same effects.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Obscure One.4357:

BoyLer.9732:

If you want a good stun breaker related to an elixir than its the elixir guns tool belt skill. with 30% TBRR it has 30 sec cd.
Elixir U is a bad joke. Its TB has some use but else i dont know why they exactly put the stun breaker onto it…..rtaher elxir c…..

Base Reason Why Elixir U is a Stunbreaker:

-Thief: Haste: -50% Endurance Regeneration, +50% activation speed, BREAKS STUN.

-Warrior: Frenzy: +25% incoming damage, +50% activation speed, BREAKS STUN.

-Ranger: Quickening Zephyr: -50% Endurance Regeneration, +50% activation speed, BREAKS STUN.

Well of Power: Converts conditions into boons. Breaks stuns.

Contemplation of Purity: Converts conditions into boons. Breaks stuns.

Elixir C: Converts conditions into boons. Does not break stuns.

I don’t disagree with the assumption that Elixir U was made a stunbreaker to behave similar to other Quickness abilities. I just disagree that such a basis should be set in stone or toss around the idea that all class skills operate similarly when they provide the same effects.

Firstly removal such as Ranger and Necromancer are not equivalent to boon conversion.

Secondly you left out Signet of Stamina which also is not a stun break.

Thirdly these skills, Frenzy, Quickening Zephyr, and Haste function identically. Rangers transfer conditions to their pet, Warriors remove conditions, and Engineers convert them into booms, these are not identical effects. The only disparity within Elixir U is which of two identical effects the Engineer receives.

Obscure One.4357:

Phineas Poe.3018:

Obscure One.4357:

BoyLer.9732:

If you want a good stun breaker related to an elixir than its the elixir guns tool belt skill. with 30% TBRR it has 30 sec cd.
Elixir U is a bad joke. Its TB has some use but else i dont know why they exactly put the stun breaker onto it…..rtaher elxir c…..

Base Reason Why Elixir U is a Stunbreaker:

-Thief: Haste: -50% Endurance Regeneration, +50% activation speed, BREAKS STUN.

-Warrior: Frenzy: +25% incoming damage, +50% activation speed, BREAKS STUN.

-Ranger: Quickening Zephyr: -50% Endurance Regeneration, +50% activation speed, BREAKS STUN.

Well of Power: Converts conditions into boons. Breaks stuns.

Contemplation of Purity: Converts conditions into boons. Breaks stuns.

Elixir C: Converts conditions into boons. Does not break stuns.

I don’t disagree with the assumption that Elixir U was made a stunbreaker to behave similar to other Quickness abilities. I just disagree that such a basis should be set in stone or toss around the idea that all class skills operate similarly when they provide the same effects.

Firstly removal such as Ranger and Necromancer are not equivalent to boon conversion.

Secondly you left out Signet of Stamina which also is not a stun break.

Thirdly these skills, Frenzy, Quickening Zephyr, and Haste function identically. Rangers transfer conditions to their pet, Warriors remove conditions, and Engineers convert them into booms, these are not identical effects. The only disparity within Elixir U is which of two identical effects the Engineer receives.

I think you misunderstood my point.

Signet of Stamina is not the same as Contemplation of Purity/Well of Power/Elixir C.

You’re supporting the argument that Elixir U should be left alone because as a Quickness skill, it should break stuns similar to other Quickness skills.

But there’s just as much reason for Elixir C to be a stunbreaker similar to other condition converter skills like it. There are only two other skills in the game that operate like Elixir C does. They’re both stun breakers.

ArenaNet could really go either way on this decision, and I really think that Elixir C makes more sense as a stunbreaker than Elixir U. Personal opinion.

Phineas Poe.3018:

I think you misunderstood my point.

Signet of Stamina is not the same as Contemplation of Purity/Well of Power/Elixir C.

You’re supporting the argument that Elixir U should be left alone because as a Quickness skill, it should break stuns similar to other Quickness skills.

But there’s just as much reason for Elixir C to be a stunbreaker similar to other condition converter skills like it. There are only two other skills in the game that operate like Elixir C does. They’re both stun breakers.

ArenaNet could really go either way on this decision, and I really think that Elixir C makes more sense as a stunbreaker than Elixir U. Personal opinion.

I think you don’t see my point.

I wont argue the that fact neither Elixir C nor Signet of Stamina are stun breaks as it is indefensible and nothing short of a design flaw. However this is not at all remotely similar to the present conversation on Elixir U.

Elixir U isn’t “similar” to other Quickness skills, it literally is other Quickness skills. It either gives the Engineer Haste, the Thief skill, or Frenzy, the Warrior skill…not something “similar” to them, literally the same exact skill. It’s flipping a coin and giving you Haste on heads and Frenzy on tails. The caveat, which was only recently added, is that Elixir U has a native shorter cool-down, which one can interpret was to compensate the Engineer for the unpredictability.

Obscure One.4357:

Elixir U isn’t “similar” to other Quickness skills, it literally is other Quickness skills.

Contemplation of Purity and Elixir C are the exact same skill. They do the exact same thing. Except one breaks stuns and the other doesn’t.

The question is: Why should Elixir U be a stunbreaker like other Quickness skills when it makes just as much sense for Elixir C to be a stunbreaker like all condition converter skills? As a skill that is useful as a stunbreaker for ALL situations, and not just “Oh, I’m going to get back up and punch that guy in the teeth!”

The biggest problem with leaving Elixir U as-is, is that it doesn’t cover the bases as well as Elixir R did when it operated as a stunbreaker. The only response to this I’ve gotten was “Elixir R was too good as a stunbreaker.”

No, it really wasn’t. And now without it, many elixir-spec Engineers are at a loss for wielding a proper stunbreaker in PvP. Elixir U just makes you take more damage than you were already suffering, and Elixir C makes you de-cap a capture point.

Phineas, while I agree with you that Elixir C should be a stun breaker, although I may be a bit biased since I use the skill myself, I must correct you on the Contemplation of Purity and Elixir C comparison. There is a minor, but significant, difference in these two skills. With Contemplation of Purity, each condition converts into a specific boon, while with Elixir C, each condition is converted into a random boon, so Contemplation of Purity and Elixir C aren’t the exact same skill.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Obscure One.4357:

Elixir U isn’t “similar” to other Quickness skills, it literally is other Quickness skills.

Contemplation of Purity and Elixir C are the exact same skill. They do the exact same thing. Except one breaks stuns and the other doesn’t.

The question is: Why should Elixir U be a stunbreaker like other Quickness skills when it makes just as much sense for Elixir C to be a stunbreaker like all condition converter skills? As a skill that is useful as a stunbreaker for ALL situations, and not just “Oh, I’m going to get back up and punch that guy in the teeth!”

The biggest problem with leaving Elixir U as-is, is that it doesn’t cover the bases as well as Elixir R did when it operated as a stunbreaker. The only response to this I’ve gotten was “Elixir R was too good as a stunbreaker.”

No, it really wasn’t. And now without it, many elixir-spec Engineers are at a loss for wielding a proper stunbreaker in PvP. Elixir U just makes you take more damage than you were already suffering, and Elixir C makes you de-cap a capture point.

If Elixir C gave the Engineer Contemplation of Purity, they would be literally the same.

Again, whether or not Elixir C is a stun break is not relevant to the point as it and Contemplation of Purity are two different, albeit extremely similar skills, that should both produce a stun break and one does not.

An example: Warriors have apples, and thieves have pears. The Engineer gets a coin. On heads he gets an apple, on tails he gets a pear.

Perhaps Rangers get Bananas, Mesmers get Watermelon, and Guardians get Kiwis, but the Engineer only ever gets Apples or Pears…not Oranges, or Grapefruit, or Strawberries, just Apples or Pears of which he takes at random from the Warriors or Thieves.

If you’re thoughts are in removing a stun break from Elixir U, it’s the removal of the stun break from both Frenzy and Haste.