Guild Wars 2

Learn to play problem. Thread solved.

coglin.1867:

Dredd Spirit Caller.4082:

perma vigor on kit got nerfed
SD got incendiary powder nerfed
HgH nade high dmg but low def
what can we run next time if they nerf engy???

The kit refinement as a whole got nerfed and hurt in many different ways. We lost damage with nades for example. Lost Box of Nails when swapping to the tool kit, harming a handy free set of bleeds and a cripple for CC or getaways. We lost one condition removal from swapping to FT and one from just swapping to EG. Not to mention some of the things you listed.

All this talk just keeps making me thing of this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6q3em9s5I4c

This video pretty much describes how it’s been!

Let’s see in the lore how exactly did the Charr get into Ascalon? Was it with pitchforks? Was it with torches? Was it with warriors with two handed swords?

Nope it was with siege engines and explosives! And guess who made those yet this is still a very weak class in PVE due to the continual nerfs. /picardfacepalm

Bloodgruve.6038:

GK, where are you ranking Grenade Engi’s now? IIRC they were coming in last on your DPS spread sheet. Have they jumped up a bunch or what?

Grenade DPS is around 10.5k now with the buff to Modified Ammunition, possibly more if you have a good variety of condition stacking. That’s on top of still being able to maintain 20 stacks of vuln and 12 stacks of might with absolutely zero tradeoff, and being able to push that up even more with fairly minimal tradeoffs.

By comparison a DPS guard or warrior is pretty much exactly the same DPS but with about half of the buff/debuff output. And that’s not even counting the loads of area stealth, condition removal, healing, and CC that an engineer can fit onto one bar with no DPS loss. Oh, and the fact that it’s all doable at 1500 range whereas pretty much every other class has to be in melee.

Honestly, the fact that a Rifle/Bomb setup does exactly the same DPS as a grenade/pistol setup but loses out on might and vuln and is stuck at melee range clearly indicates the problem more than anything.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Honestly, the fact that a Rifle/Bomb setup does exactly the same DPS as a grenade/pistol setup but loses out on might and vuln and is stuck at melee range clearly indicates the problem more than anything.

wut…

Have we called troll yet? Because if not I call troll.

Stillshade.7634:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Honestly, the fact that a Rifle/Bomb setup does exactly the same DPS as a grenade/pistol setup but loses out on might and vuln and is stuck at melee range clearly indicates the problem more than anything.

wut…

Have we called troll yet? Because if not I call troll.

we already called it I’m not sure why this post is still going

Can’t wait for dungeons to call for “Zerk Engies only”

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Grenade DPS is around 10.5k now with the buff to Modified Ammunition, possibly more if you have a good variety of condition stacking. That’s on top of still being able to maintain 20 stacks of vuln and 12 stacks of might with absolutely zero tradeoff, and being able to push that up even more with fairly minimal tradeoffs
By comparison a DPS guard or warrior is pretty much exactly the same DPS but with about half of the buff/debuff output. And that’s not even counting the loads of area stealth, condition removal, healing, and CC that an engineer can fit onto one bar with no DPS loss. Oh, and the fact that it’s all doable at 1500 range whereas pretty much every other class has to be in melee.

Honestly, the fact that a Rifle/Bomb setup does exactly the same DPS as a grenade/pistol setup but loses out on might and vuln and is stuck at melee range clearly indicates the problem more than anything.

So instead of nerf nades which is at same level than other professions, anet should buff rifle and the rest of the kits. Shouldnt they?

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Bloodgruve.6038:

GK, where are you ranking Grenade Engi’s now? IIRC they were coming in last on your DPS spread sheet. Have they jumped up a bunch or what?

Grenade DPS is around 10.5k now with the buff to Modified Ammunition, possibly more if you have a good variety of condition stacking. That’s on top of still being able to maintain 20 stacks of vuln and 12 stacks of might with absolutely zero tradeoff, and being able to push that up even more with fairly minimal tradeoffs.

By comparison a DPS guard or warrior is pretty much exactly the same DPS but with about half of the buff/debuff output. And that’s not even counting the loads of area stealth, condition removal, healing, and CC that an engineer can fit onto one bar with no DPS loss. Oh, and the fact that it’s all doable at 1500 range whereas pretty much every other class has to be in melee.

Honestly, the fact that a Rifle/Bomb setup does exactly the same DPS as a grenade/pistol setup but loses out on might and vuln and is stuck at melee range clearly indicates the problem more than anything.

in other words you fear modified ammunition will break the damage charts in engi

a dps engineer will most likely go full direct damage wich usually is SD and nades

wich leaves to immobilize cripple bleed vuln give or take 1-2 more conditions like poison if they bring eg so average buff from Modified ammo would be 10% as for vuln
i dont see how they would keep 25 stacks 100% uptime at least maybe 5 stacks i see accomplishable on a non condi build so how is engineer dps broken over a 10-15% increase from a Grandmaster trait
aint like engi’s the only class with a buff like that

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Executioner
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Close_to_Death
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Berserker%27s_Power

Ryn.6459:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Grenade DPS is around 10.5k now with the buff to Modified Ammunition, possibly more if you have a good variety of condition stacking. That’s on top of still being able to maintain 20 stacks of vuln and 12 stacks of might with absolutely zero tradeoff, and being able to push that up even more with fairly minimal tradeoffs
By comparison a DPS guard or warrior is pretty much exactly the same DPS but with about half of the buff/debuff output. And that’s not even counting the loads of area stealth, condition removal, healing, and CC that an engineer can fit onto one bar with no DPS loss. Oh, and the fact that it’s all doable at 1500 range whereas pretty much every other class has to be in melee.

Honestly, the fact that a Rifle/Bomb setup does exactly the same DPS as a grenade/pistol setup but loses out on might and vuln and is stuck at melee range clearly indicates the problem more than anything.

So instead of nerf nades which is at same level than other professions, anet should buff rifle and the rest of the kits. Shouldnt they?

and Turrets and Mortar lol

Rezzet.3614:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Bloodgruve.6038:

GK, where are you ranking Grenade Engi’s now? IIRC they were coming in last on your DPS spread sheet. Have they jumped up a bunch or what?

Grenade DPS is around 10.5k now with the buff to Modified Ammunition, possibly more if you have a good variety of condition stacking. That’s on top of still being able to maintain 20 stacks of vuln and 12 stacks of might with absolutely zero tradeoff, and being able to push that up even more with fairly minimal tradeoffs.

By comparison a DPS guard or warrior is pretty much exactly the same DPS but with about half of the buff/debuff output. And that’s not even counting the loads of area stealth, condition removal, healing, and CC that an engineer can fit onto one bar with no DPS loss. Oh, and the fact that it’s all doable at 1500 range whereas pretty much every other class has to be in melee.

Honestly, the fact that a Rifle/Bomb setup does exactly the same DPS as a grenade/pistol setup but loses out on might and vuln and is stuck at melee range clearly indicates the problem more than anything.

in other words you fear modified ammunition will break the damage charts in engi

a dps engineer will most likely go full direct damage wich usually is SD and nades

wich leaves to immobilize cripple bleed vuln give or take 1-2 more conditions like poison if they bring eg so average buff from Modified ammo would be 10% as for vuln
i dont see how they would keep 25 stacks 100% uptime at least maybe 5 stacks i see accomplishable on a non condi build so how is engineer dps broken over a 10-15% increase from a Grandmaster trait
aint like engi’s the only class with a buff like that

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Executioner
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Close_to_Death
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Berserker%27s_Power

Warriors and thieves don’t stack 20 vuln and 12 might just by standing there.

Modified Ammo is normally a weak trait but it is too strong for grenade engineers. So it can’t be buffed to bring it up to speed for every other weapon without creating serious imbalance problems for grenades.

Same goes for Steel-packed Powder, Shrapnel, Precise Sights, etc. They’re all weak traits for every other weapon but can’t be buffed because they’re already balanced around grenades. Imagine if you got, like, 7s vuln on crit with Precise Sights like warriors do. It’d be perfectly average for most weapons but you’d be getting something like 30 stacks of vuln with grenades which would just be ridiculous.

Even considered in your frame of thinking, I’m not sure what you’re trying to accomplish here. If you want build diversity inside of PvE dungeon speed runs (which is pretty much the only place where grenades dominate), the only thing that makes that possible is increasing the raw firepower of other kits to match warrior axe. Just buffing traits here and there will not make that happen. Nerfing grenade damage will also NOT make this happen. Engineers will simply be kicked on sight and you will have 0 build diversity.

Outside of dungeon speed runs, you can probably see that there is a healthy ecosystem of many different builds in WvW and PvP and most do not even touch nades.

Also, you might have forgotten but anet already nerfed grenades by a massive 30% precisely for this supposed issue of build diversity. Additionally, we actually have a few traits that are on-par with warriors: precise strike – sharpshooter, stick and move – empowering adrenaline, empowered – energy conversion matrix. The other things that warriors have better are simply anet loving warriors in general and probably less to do with engineers or grenades.

Let me see people LFG for “need zerk engies” first THEN we discuss a nerf.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Rezzet.3614:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Bloodgruve.6038:

GK, where are you ranking Grenade Engi’s now? IIRC they were coming in last on your DPS spread sheet. Have they jumped up a bunch or what?

Grenade DPS is around 10.5k now with the buff to Modified Ammunition, possibly more if you have a good variety of condition stacking. That’s on top of still being able to maintain 20 stacks of vuln and 12 stacks of might with absolutely zero tradeoff, and being able to push that up even more with fairly minimal tradeoffs.

By comparison a DPS guard or warrior is pretty much exactly the same DPS but with about half of the buff/debuff output. And that’s not even counting the loads of area stealth, condition removal, healing, and CC that an engineer can fit onto one bar with no DPS loss. Oh, and the fact that it’s all doable at 1500 range whereas pretty much every other class has to be in melee.

Honestly, the fact that a Rifle/Bomb setup does exactly the same DPS as a grenade/pistol setup but loses out on might and vuln and is stuck at melee range clearly indicates the problem more than anything.

in other words you fear modified ammunition will break the damage charts in engi

a dps engineer will most likely go full direct damage wich usually is SD and nades

wich leaves to immobilize cripple bleed vuln give or take 1-2 more conditions like poison if they bring eg so average buff from Modified ammo would be 10% as for vuln
i dont see how they would keep 25 stacks 100% uptime at least maybe 5 stacks i see accomplishable on a non condi build so how is engineer dps broken over a 10-15% increase from a Grandmaster trait
aint like engi’s the only class with a buff like that

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Executioner
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Close_to_Death
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Berserker%27s_Power

Warriors and thieves don’t stack 20 vuln and 12 might just by standing there.

Modified Ammo is normally a weak trait but it is too strong for grenade engineers. So it can’t be buffed to bring it up to speed for every other weapon without creating serious imbalance problems for grenades.

Same goes for Steel-packed Powder, Shrapnel, Precise Sights, etc. They’re all weak traits for every other weapon but can’t be buffed because they’re already balanced around grenades. Imagine if you got, like, 7s vuln on crit with Precise Sights like warriors do. It’d be perfectly average for most weapons but you’d be getting something like 30 stacks of vuln with grenades which would just be ridiculous.

except to be able to stack 25 vuln with grenades Your Enemy is the one that has to be standing still not you grenades are avoided as easily as walking as they have to be manually aimed and their damage isnt all that big either

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Rezzet.3614:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Bloodgruve.6038:

GK, where are you ranking Grenade Engi’s now? IIRC they were coming in last on your DPS spread sheet. Have they jumped up a bunch or what?

Grenade DPS is around 10.5k now with the buff to Modified Ammunition, possibly more if you have a good variety of condition stacking. That’s on top of still being able to maintain 20 stacks of vuln and 12 stacks of might with absolutely zero tradeoff, and being able to push that up even more with fairly minimal tradeoffs.

By comparison a DPS guard or warrior is pretty much exactly the same DPS but with about half of the buff/debuff output. And that’s not even counting the loads of area stealth, condition removal, healing, and CC that an engineer can fit onto one bar with no DPS loss. Oh, and the fact that it’s all doable at 1500 range whereas pretty much every other class has to be in melee.

Honestly, the fact that a Rifle/Bomb setup does exactly the same DPS as a grenade/pistol setup but loses out on might and vuln and is stuck at melee range clearly indicates the problem more than anything.

in other words you fear modified ammunition will break the damage charts in engi

a dps engineer will most likely go full direct damage wich usually is SD and nades

wich leaves to immobilize cripple bleed vuln give or take 1-2 more conditions like poison if they bring eg so average buff from Modified ammo would be 10% as for vuln
i dont see how they would keep 25 stacks 100% uptime at least maybe 5 stacks i see accomplishable on a non condi build so how is engineer dps broken over a 10-15% increase from a Grandmaster trait
aint like engi’s the only class with a buff like that

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Executioner
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Close_to_Death
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Berserker%27s_Power

Warriors and thieves don’t stack 20 vuln and 12 might just by standing there.

Modified Ammo is normally a weak trait but it is too strong for grenade engineers. So it can’t be buffed to bring it up to speed for every other weapon without creating serious imbalance problems for grenades.

Same goes for Steel-packed Powder, Shrapnel, Precise Sights, etc. They’re all weak traits for every other weapon but can’t be buffed because they’re already balanced around grenades. Imagine if you got, like, 7s vuln on crit with Precise Sights like warriors do. It’d be perfectly average for most weapons but you’d be getting something like 30 stacks of vuln with grenades which would just be ridiculous.

I am a little confused as to where you are getting the 12 stacks of might by just standing there? I know we can stack 24 stacks of might without a special rune set or traits but with just bomb 2 and all the blast finishers we can bring but these take time away from using possibly more damaging skills. could you please point out where we are getting the 12 stacks of might please, are you talking about using superior sigil of might and battle at the same time, or enhanced performance?

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Grenade DPS is around 10.5k now with the buff to Modified Ammunition, possibly more if you have a good variety of condition stacking. That’s on top of still being able to maintain 20 stacks of vuln and 12 stacks of might with absolutely zero tradeoff, and being able to push that up even more with fairly minimal tradeoffs.

By comparison a DPS guard or warrior is pretty much exactly the same DPS but with about half of the buff/debuff output. And that’s not even counting the loads of area stealth, condition removal, healing, and CC that an engineer can fit onto one bar with no DPS loss. Oh, and the fact that it’s all doable at 1500 range whereas pretty much every other class has to be in melee.

Honestly, the fact that a Rifle/Bomb setup does exactly the same DPS as a grenade/pistol setup but loses out on might and vuln and is stuck at melee range clearly indicates the problem more than anything.

Realistically to pull top end DPS we have to constantly switch kits/weapons around which results in less might/vulnerability stacks. 100% grenade spam is a personal DPS loss. Also, 10.5K compared to the top DPS numbers is a pretty big problem on its own, if I recall your numbers correctly. Other builds need DPS nerfs before I’d take a grenade nerf.

I think the complexity of Engi coupled with grenade skill shots balance out the ability to stack important boons/conditions. I agree a good player can gain a lot from the kit and build though, more so then a lot of other classes/builds but it takes a hell of a lot to pull off.

IMHO
Blood~

Four blast finishers = 12 stacks. And it’s not a DPS loss due to the damage output from BOB and Acid Bomb.

Also, just staying in grenades maintains warrior-level damage on its own. None of the other classes with high DPS stack buffs as well as an engie does either. You can trade some vuln/might for bomb auto or rifle burst but that doesn’t change the fact that it’s grenades pulling most of the weight.

In PvE the class isn’t outrageously broken or anything but it’s definitely one of the strongest. And it is literally due to one weapon that the entire class is balanced around. I don’t think any other class rides on a single weapon set as hard as the engie does on grenades.

Your making a great deal of claims, yet offering absolutely no facts to support your arguments. Sure, your presenting a great many of your odd opinions to support your argument, but no actual facts. As well, if you actually did offer some real facts and numbers that were accurate, I doubt it would be anything close to what would be needed to cause reasonable players to agree with you. As much as I can appreciate what your trying to say, your reasoning and solution are just completely unreasonable as I see it.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Either way I want to actually be able to play my engineer without feeling like a scrub playing the easiest and most OP profession.

This part here makes him a troll. There’s no way to argue it.

How can the least-played profession be the easiest and most OPed? I personally find the idea of playing a kit Engineer without a gaming mouse terrifying (fortunately, I have one).

Now if you want OPed, let’s talk Warrior. Yeah, I won’t even finish that because I don’t need to.

The more you instigate this thread the longer it will remain active. There is no discussion here, no debate and no purpose to this post. Just let the child throw its tantrum and be done with it. For it knows nothing of the true world, and has yet to feel the sting of sweat in its eyes after a hard days work.

Wolf.5816:

The more you instigate this thread the longer it will remain active. There is no discussion here, no debate and no purpose to this post. Just let the child throw its tantrum and be done with it. For it knows nothing of the true world, and has yet to feel the sting of sweat in its eyes after a hard days work.

I completely disagree with you here, even if we don’t understand and believe the OP’s claims. Guanglai Kangyi.4318 has done a great deal to further the engi community especially in the way of dungeons, for all he’s done to get the dungeon forums to recognize the engineer as a viable option in dungeons, he at least deserves the right to be heard, maybe he will surprise us?

This all being said Guanglai have you tried using thumper turret rather than elixir gun for might stacking, its recharge is longer, but its 9 might stacks at once rather than 3, over time the might stacks will about even out but I use the thumper turret for the burst of might stacks (Overload, detonate, and rumble[toolbelt]) using this method in combination with BoB detonating your heal turret and using shield #4 as a blast finisher your can give your whole party 18 might at once rather than 12 (this doesn’t even count the possibility of using supply crate for another blast finisher and it still allows for the use of grenade and bomb kit in your build)

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Also, just staying in grenades maintains warrior-level damage on its own. None of the other classes with high DPS stack buffs as well as an engie does either. You can trade some vuln/might for bomb auto or rifle burst but that doesn’t change the fact that it’s grenades pulling most of the weight.

In PvE the class isn’t outrageously broken or anything but it’s definitely one of the strongest. And it is literally due to one weapon that the entire class is balanced around. I don’t think any other class rides on a single weapon set as hard as the engie does on grenades.

Other classes also have this characteristic of having one weapon set that is far above all others in damage output. I’ve mentioned some of them earlier.

But moreover, I do not think this is a problem with skill balance. In the first place, this is a problem with dungeons being dps-centric that’s causing this situation where all classes home in on one maximum dps build instead of diversifying. Unless you fix this fundamental issue, this problem will never go away. People will simply compute another build that has the maximum dps and use that.

You nerf grenades, people switch to bombs. Then engineers rely on bombs as hard as they did grenades. What are you going to do now? Nerf bombs?

P.S. More often than not, engineers are found furiously swapping between their many kits instead of staying on grenades the whole time.

Infamous Darkness.3284:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318 has done a great deal to further the engi community especially in the way of dungeons, for all he’s done to get the dungeon forums to recognize the engineer as a viable option in dungeons

And he wants it nerfed. Does not compute.

Infamous Darkness.3284:

I completely disagree with you here, even if we don’t understand and believe the OP’s claims. Guanglai Kangyi.4318 has done a great deal to further the engi community especially in the way of dungeons, for all he’s done to get the dungeon forums to recognize the engineer as a viable option in dungeons, he at least deserves the right to be heard, maybe he will surprise us?

I can agree that he did push hard to promote what engineers can do in damage, buffs, and debuffs, but that doesn’t meant we have to accept an unreasonable argument. That is along the lines of logic of staying with an abusive spouse simply because they buy you gifts and act sweet the day after they abuse you. One does not make the other right.

can s’one explain what 10.5k dps referrs to? are we talking of spvp? how can dps be 10.5k?

gesho.9468:

can s’one explain what 10.5k dps referrs to? are we talking of spvp? how can dps be 10.5k?

Pretty sure he is referring to Damage per second. The problem I have encountered, is that he does this as a spread sheet calculation, and I have never found his number practical in actual game play for the most part.

coglin.1867:

gesho.9468:

can s’one explain what 10.5k dps referrs to? are we talking of spvp? how can dps be 10.5k?

Pretty sure he is referring to Damage per second. The problem I have encountered, is that he does this as a spread sheet calculation, and I have never found his number practical in actual game play for the most part.

Yeah because standing behind everyone mashing 1212121212 is impractical.

So now your suggesting spamming nothing but grenade and shrapnel grenade does 10,500 damage per second? You were being out far enough in left field with your original comments. Now, well, your not doing your credibility any favors. Care to offer a fact or evidence of your claim that spamming just two skills does even half that damage your claiming?

coglin.1867:

So now your suggesting spamming nothing but grenade and shrapnel grenade does 10,500 damage per second? You were being out far enough in left field with your original comments. Now, well, your not doing your credibility any favors. Care to offer a fact or evidence of your claim that spamming just two skills does even half that damage your claiming?

Since you’re the one coming out of nowhere with your claims, why don’t you offer some proof that it doesn’t?

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Yeah because standing behind everyone mashing 1212121212 is impractical.

which part of the game are you referring to? in spvp 10k dps is beyond unimaginable.

can you pls link this spreadsheet?

gesho.9468:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Yeah because standing behind everyone mashing 1212121212 is impractical.

which part of the game are you referring to? in spvp 10k dps is beyond unimaginable.

can you pls link this spreadsheet?

I already said I’m talking about PvE.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

coglin.1867:

So now your suggesting spamming nothing but grenade and shrapnel grenade does 10,500 damage per second? You were being out far enough in left field with your original comments. Now, well, your not doing your credibility any favors. Care to offer a fact or evidence of your claim that spamming just two skills does even half that damage your claiming?

Since you’re the one coming out of nowhere with your claims, why don’t you offer some proof that it doesn’t?

Sorry mate. Since you made the initial claim (10.5k dps ’nades), the burden of proof is yours. What are you calculating with, anyway? Both war banners, frost spirit, spotter? Empower allies?

Sins.4782:

Sorry mate. Since you made the initial claim (10.5k dps ’nades), the burden of proof is yours. What are you calculating with, anyway? Both war banners, frost spirit, spotter? Empower allies?

Since that is the amount of damage he is attributing to the engineer in the spreadsheet he posted, then um, no, it is not on me. Further more, he is now claiming that it can be done by spaming simply 2 grenade skills.

coglin.1867:

Sins.4782:

Sorry mate. Since you made the initial claim (10.5k dps ’nades), the burden of proof is yours. What are you calculating with, anyway? Both war banners, frost spirit, spotter? Empower allies?

Since that is the amount of damage he is attributing to the engineer in the spreadsheet he posted, then um, no, it is not on me. Further more, he is now claiming that it can be done by spaming simply 2 grenade skills.

That was directed at Guang, sorry if that wasn’t clear. I thought I would leave the double quote in there for context.

Quite honestly I think Engineers are at a perfect spot right now in terms of balance, or if not perfect at least a lot closer than majority of other classes.

I just wish ANet didn’t turn them into a Guardian hard counter, it’s really a huge letdown knowing that you stand no chance unless the engineer is clueless.

coglin.1867:

Sins.4782:

Sorry mate. Since you made the initial claim (10.5k dps ’nades), the burden of proof is yours. What are you calculating with, anyway? Both war banners, frost spirit, spotter? Empower allies?

Since that is the amount of damage he is attributing to the engineer in the spreadsheet he posted, then um, no, it is not on me. Further more, he is now claiming that it can be done by spaming simply 2 grenade skills.

well not gonna lie # 2 and # 4 can hit for almost 10k with serker gear or at least it did months ago even so it proves OP wrong because to achieve 10k dps per second would mean being able to use any of said skilsl every 1-2 seconds and the # 4 skill in particular has a long cd and theres again the fact to stack 25 vuln your enemy has to stand still so nades start stacking up vuln

as for might you’d lose some dps and/or some serious survivability as you’d have to sacrifice 2-3 utilities also theres also lets not forget if you’re landing 10ks you’re hitting the glassiest of glass cannons heck i landed an 11k blunderbuss on an ele and 15k on a mesmer with j ump shot. so yeah any class can hit the 10k damage mark easily as glasss cannon hitting glass cannons

This OP… same genius behind:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/PvE-Revising-the-DPS-Meta/first

coglin.1867:

Infamous Darkness.3284:

I completely disagree with you here, even if we don’t understand and believe the OP’s claims. Guanglai Kangyi.4318 has done a great deal to further the engi community especially in the way of dungeons, for all he’s done to get the dungeon forums to recognize the engineer as a viable option in dungeons, he at least deserves the right to be heard, maybe he will surprise us?

I can agree that he did push hard to promote what engineers can do in damage, buffs, and debuffs, but that doesn’t meant we have to accept an unreasonable argument. That is along the lines of logic of staying with an abusive spouse simply because they buy you gifts and act sweet the day after they abuse you. One does not make the other right.

No that is not along the same logic saying be respectful to someone who has helped you as their wisdom may help you to understand something you didnt before is in no way the same as staying in an abusive relationship…

So you support the OP and his perspective, and are suggesting we should do so as well, simply because he made some post to the community suggesting the full value of engineers in dungeons??

That is an odd mentality for me to swallow, but to each his own. I for one completely disagree with the OP on this, and feel nothing he has presented justifies it. As well, I stand by my analogy, and say yes, it is exactly like the analogy I made. To suggest we excuse the reasoning he used here for such a poor argument, simply because he made a few positive engineer post in the past, is completely irrational in my opinion.

You are very literally stating that even though absolutely no one agrees with the OPs opinion, nor understands it, that we should be silent and except it simply because you yourself feel he did good with previous post of engineers dungeon capability.

As you seem with him enough to make multiple post on his behalf, I would be more interested to read your arguments on it, rather then to see you simply tell the rest of us how we are wrong for our own opinions. Please explain to us why you support him so vehemently. It would do a lot more for the discussion then simply going around quoting others post and aimlessly claiming they are wrong, while offering absolutely no reasoning or logic to your statements.

first no that is still not true I keep saying that because of his work to help engis in the past we should try to at least make an effort to understand what he is saying, for me personally, I am incredibly against his view point I would say engis need a buff if anything. https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/Dungeon-usefulness-list/first all of my opinions from this thread are the same as they were before, but if I have overlooked something I would rather learn where I may be mistaken rather than just dismissing the one who disagrees with me as a fool.

GK, I would respectfully ask, how have you validated your calculated DPS values? I’ve seen your spreadsheet, its impressive and you have a lot going on, but what can you say for its accuracy?

I personally don’t get the opportunity, nor do most people I would suspect, to run in an organized group that makes these numbers possible.

Appreciated,

Blood~

i just dont see where your basing your claims from like i tried full gc and my grenades wont hit 10k damage except for grenade barrage wich still proves you wrong if thats what you claim overpowered as it has a 30-25s cooldown

well i guess if your opponet is a glass cannon and stands still then yeah you might be somewhat ok
since my current nade damage is 1500-1700 per grenade so thats 4500-5100 damage IF all 3 nades land however the tooltip timers are what are misguiding you grenades have an actual cast time of 1 second so thats at tops 5k dps not the claimed 10 unless you had mesmers using the quickening fields and again non glass cannons or people that actually Move will just laugh at grenades

R.I.P. my poor wallet and my pet dog

Bloodgruve.6038:

GK, I would respectfully ask, how have you validated your calculated DPS values? I’ve seen your spreadsheet, its impressive and you have a lot going on, but what can you say for its accuracy?

I personally don’t get the opportunity, nor do most people I would suspect, to run in an organized group that makes these numbers possible.

Appreciated,

Blood~

I’m sure the spreadsheet is correct since the formula’s pretty simple and hard to mess up and it’s the same formula I use for all classes. If the grenade number is inflated it’s similarly inflated for warriors, etc.

I’ve also run in organized groups and with full buffs I typically hit between 2 to 2.5k per regular grenade and around 3.5k per Shrapnel. That’s per grenade so if a normal volley is 6k, the Shrapnel is about 1k. So every five seconds you throw 4 regular volleys + 1 Shrapnel = 6000 × 4000 + 10,000 = 34000 over 5 seconds, which is about 7k give or take. Bleed ticks for about 100 each with 30 in Firearms + 25 Might stacks so you get about 100 per bleed x 25 = 2500. So that’s 9.5k and I run support spec with Giver’s weapons and Traveler’s Runes. Switch Giver’s to Zerker and Traveler’s to Scholar and 10.5k is easy.

So what that basically boils down to is that it adds up both mathematically and anecdotally.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Bloodgruve.6038:

GK, I would respectfully ask, how have you validated your calculated DPS values? I’ve seen your spreadsheet, its impressive and you have a lot going on, but what can you say for its accuracy?

I personally don’t get the opportunity, nor do most people I would suspect, to run in an organized group that makes these numbers possible.

Appreciated,

Blood~

I’m sure the spreadsheet is correct since the formula’s pretty simple and hard to mess up and it’s the same formula I use for all classes. If the grenade number is inflated it’s similarly inflated for warriors, etc.

I’ve also run in organized groups and with full buffs I typically hit between 2 to 2.5k per regular grenade and around 3.5k per Shrapnel. That’s per grenade so if a normal volley is 6k, the Shrapnel is about 1k. So every five seconds you throw 4 regular volleys + 1 Shrapnel = 6000 × 4000 + 10,000 = 34000 over 5 seconds, which is about 7k give or take. Bleed ticks for about 100 each with 30 in Firearms + 25 Might stacks so you get about 100 per bleed x 25 = 2500. So that’s 9.5k and I run support spec with Giver’s weapons and Traveler’s Runes. Switch Giver’s to Zerker and Traveler’s to Scholar and 10.5k is easy.

So what that basically boils down to is that it adds up both mathematically and anecdotally.

Per grenade? I haven’t been following this thread very closely so i kinda missed whatever spreadsheet has been mentioned and I wanna see that. Also can you get me a screenshot of that combat log if you haven’t provided one already?

30/30/0/0/10 full zerk with strength runes. rifle with strength sigil. 25 stacks of might, no discipline or food buffs. i was hitting roughly 3900 with my grenade auto and 6900 with shrapnel grenade. i was averaging around 700 damage in bleeds and 100 damage in poisons so if you wanna calculate this over a 5 second period then:

3900 × 4 auto attack + 6900 shrapnel grenade + 3500 bleeds + 500 poison = 26500. 26500/5seconds = 5300 dps. this calculation is assuming you crit for every single attack. i seriously doubt with food and discipline that this number will double.

this was tested on mark t-bearce golem boss in coe. and yes the protection was off though i was paying so much attention to numbers that i wasn’t paying attention to retal. i gave my life for this test.

edit: i just want to point out that my 0/30/0/25/15 FT build with the same gear and under the same conditions plus discipline does this over 5 seconds:

7000 auto damage x 2 flame jets every 5 seconds + 10000 flame blast + 2500 burns + 2000 bleeds = 28500. 28500/5 = 5700 dps. everybody hates on ft but it does just about the same as zerk grenades except a. it looks cooler b. don’t have to mash 1 and c. i get to see big numbers instead of a lot of little 1-2k damage blips.

Grenades don’t need nerfs. Kits need a buff.

Specifically Flamethrower. I want it to be a viable dps source.

in other words having said dps is impossible to attain without asistance keeping 25 might up

how is it overpowered then

Rezzet.3614:

in other words having said dps is impossible to attain without asistance keeping 25 might up

how is it overpowered then

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoXwp94Bltk

even with 25 might stacks i was only to achieve half the dps that he said he could achieve and i was wearing better gear. somewhere along the line, math was off.

ArrDee.2573:

Rezzet.3614:

in other words having said dps is impossible to attain without asistance keeping 25 might up

how is it overpowered then

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoXwp94Bltk

even with 25 might stacks i was only to achieve half the dps that he said he could achieve and i was wearing better gear. somewhere along the line, math was off.

the dps he said can be achieved but its not something you’ll do alone you’d need at least guards buffing you and the enemy with 25 vuln stacks

perhaps i should point out that ALL classes can hit for just as much damage in the same scenario

How about that:
- Change Grenades, that Engineer will throw only 1, which does the damage of 2 grenades.
- Change the “Grenadier” Trait, so that it increases Damage of Grenades by 50%. And maybe give it an explosion Radius increase to compensate the lost space that would be covered by 3 Grenades.
- Triple the Condition Duration of the Grenade Skills

Now what would be the effect?
The Minor Traits like Steel-packed Powder would not go off 3 times, but only 1 time, while at the same time the Damage would be the same as it is now. Stacking Vulnerability wont be that easy that way.
Engineer would benefit from this too. We could play Grenades against Retaliation Zergs in WvW and be hit only 5 Times by Retaliation for every Grenade thrown, instead of 15 Times.

Oh and while changing Grenades, maybe ad this to the “Grenadier” Trait: “Grenades are targeted at your target. The Ground-Aim circles are removed”

idk why you’re linking those videos. nothing to do with engi.
and no it’s impossible to achieve 10.5k dps with just grenades. even if you have spotter, 25 vuln and might, frost spirit, food buffs, and maximum amount of conditions and whatever else that boosts your damage. it’s impossible. your autos would need to hit for at least 3000 per grenade.

http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/engineer/?2.0|a.5g.h8.e.5g.h1.d13.0.d13|0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0|5g.7e.5g.7e.5g.7e.5g.7e.5g.7e.5g.7e.d19.d19.d19.d19.d19.d19|2s.d19.2s.d19.3s.d19.2s.d19.3s.d19.2s.d19|u37b.a5.0.0.u24c|39.j|2c.2f.2e.2u.30|e
I tried to help by making a damage calculation but it seems I went terribly wrong somewhere if someone could point it out to me that would be great (also I forgot to include frost spirit in it.)

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

I’ve also run in organized groups and with full buffs I typically hit between 2 to 2.5k per regular grenade and around 3.5k per Shrapnel.

Full buffs is not the same as personal DPS.

You can’t just assume that you’re always going to have Frost Spirit, Banner of Discipline, and Banner of Strength around. If you want to have a meaningful discussion about kit damage and their calculated damage, they have to be structured around base damage. Without might. Without vulnerability. Just traits, power, and weapon strength. Discussions of crits don’t matter, because they’re just multiplicative of your base damage.

We just can’t have a meaningful discussion if you continue to situate context around your damage calculations. I also think it’s time we stop debating in spreadsheets and get to the heart of the matter: screenshot this damage output. Show us a video. Something. Evidence would be nice.

If you can so easily reach this damage output on a regular basis, it shouldn’t be that hard to replicate.