Guild Wars 2

ArrDee.2573:

edit: i just want to point out that my 0/30/0/25/15 FT build with the same gear and under the same conditions plus discipline does this over 5 seconds:

7000 auto damage x 2 flame jets every 5 seconds + 10000 flame blast + 2500 burns + 2000 bleeds = 28500. 28500/5 = 5700 dps. everybody hates on ft but it does just about the same as zerk grenades except a. it looks cooler b. don’t have to mash 1 and c. i get to see big numbers instead of a lot of little 1-2k damage blips.

That’s a really interesting trait allocation. I thought 20/30/0/20/0 would be better and wrote up a DPS variant for it after Dec 10, but I may have to give this a try some time. If I can peel myself away from the bomb kit long enough.

the problem with grenades more revolves around the fact that they pretty much do EVERYTHING and not that anything else is specifically bad.

condition damage, debuffs, direct damage… you name it and the grenades are likely to come in handy, and they dont take time to use like certain other skills such as fumigate which doesnt even offer 100% poison uptime in comparison to the grenades 300-400% at its best.

the only downfall of the grenades is the aching finger after an intense fight

Infamous Darkness.3284:

http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/engineer/?2.0|a.5g.h8.e.5g.h1.d13.0.d13|0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0|5g.7e.5g.7e.5g.7e.5g.7e.5g.7e.5g.7e.d19.d19.d19.d19.d19.d19|2s.d19.2s.d19.3s.d19.2s.d19.3s.d19.2s.d19|u37b.a5.0.0.u24c|39.j|2c.2f.2e.2u.30|e
I tried to help by making a damage calculation but it seems I went terribly wrong somewhere if someone could point it out to me that would be great (also I forgot to include frost spirit in it.)

yeh everything went wrong since the beggining

cant ask to nerf a specific kit or gear when the only way to obtain the said effects is by relying on 4-5 other players

in your case ranger ,2 warrior banners,guardian empower skill

you brought more than just the said kit’s performance into play

as for the random links i showed earlier they simply proved my statement any classs can dish out ungodly ammounts of damage with the right coordination and rotations

heck try that with Bomb Kit and enjoy the over 12k damage auto attacks

I agree with the premise of the thread but not the solution. I haven’t played much in the past month or two so please correct me if I’m wrong, but we’re balanced to other professions with the Grenade Kit right? It’s not like we’re some OP profession everyone plays because Grenades are easy god mode. They’re where the rest of the Engineer should be.

Let’s bring the weak parts of the class up to the level of what the GK can do, not nerf the GK down to the level of, say, Gadgets and Turrets.

I hope all the guys going “b-but you have to have other people buff you” realize that that’s true for everyone. If anything engineers do better solo than most other classes because of the ridiculous might and vuln they can stack by themselves.

That’s also not accounting for the fact that by being an engineer you’re also buffing the rest of the party by a good 30-50% depending on how close to the cap they were without you.

Just face it, grenades are dumb. Imagine all the cool kitten engies could have if they didn’t exist.

Except that we wouldn’t have any extra cool things, we just wouldn’t have grenades. That’s not how class balance or design works.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Just face it, grenades are dumb. Imagine all the cool kitten engies could have if they didn’t exist.

Hey, I’m with you. I don’t like grenades. But we don’t gain anything extra by subtracting the grenades. The other aspects of the Engineer will still be lackluster, only grenades will join them. We will only have something extra by adding it.

We need addition not subtraction.

We should change grenades into some sort of weapon where you can put the grenades in it and launch them like …. a crossbow. Yeah. We could even call it the Grenade Launch bow or something….

But kitten i’m talking crazy.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Imagine all the cool kitten engies could have if they didn’t exist.

You mean, the other kits we already have access to? If you feel so burdened by the grenade kit that you cannot reasonably wield anything else, that is pathetic. The grenade kit is not the be-all, end-all weapon in the game regardless of what your mythical spreadsheet tells you.

It’s great for vulnerability stacking, but for pretty much anything else the bomb kit, flamethrower, elixir gun, and even the tool kit are superior to it.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Imagine all the cool kitten engies could have if they didn’t exist.

You mean, the other kits we already have access to? If you feel so burdened by the grenade kit that you cannot reasonably wield anything else, that is pathetic. The grenade kit is not the be-all, end-all weapon in the game regardless of what your mythical spreadsheet tells you.

It’s great for vulnerability stacking, but for pretty much anything else the bomb kit, flamethrower, elixir gun, and even the tool kit are superior to it.

tool kit for me hits 5-7k autos without magic stacking nor a whole party worth of buffs xD

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Just face it, grenades are dumb. Imagine all the cool kitten engies could have if they didn’t exist.

You mean like the very supportive elixir gun kit, or the all around useful tool kit, or would you be referring to the very utilitarian bomb kit that just so happens to out damages grenade kit ?

coglin.1867:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Just face it, grenades are dumb. Imagine all the cool kitten engies could have if they didn’t exist.

You mean like the very supportive elixir gun kit, or the all around useful tool kit, or would you be referring to the very utilitarian bomb kit that just so happens to out damages grenade kit ?

Yeah, all those other useless kits that currently do nothing.

I think engineers are currently the only class with only one viable weapon set. Most other classes have an “optimal DPS” weapon but also have weapons with valid alternative uses. For example, the elementalist has staff for raw DPS but scepter/LH is still useful for might stacking.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Yeah, all those other useless kits that currently do nothing.

Please remember that the engineer community is likely over half wvw/pvp players. Just because toolkit isn’t great for dungeons doesn’t make it useless. Maybe it’s useless to you. There are a lot of things that are useless to me as a PvP player, but you likely rely heavily on them.

Now imagine I post in the forum that those things that you rely heavily on should be changed because they’re not useful in my game mode. We’d probably see a similar reaction to the one you’re seeing right now.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

I think engineers are currently the only class with only one viable weapon set. Most other classes have an “optimal DPS” weapon but also have weapons with valid alternative uses. For example, the elementalist has staff for raw DPS but scepter/LH is still useful for might stacking.

Please teach me how to stack might with the grenade kit.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

I think engineers are currently the only class with only one viable weapon set. Most other classes have an “optimal DPS” weapon but also have weapons with valid alternative uses. For example, the elementalist has staff for raw DPS but scepter/LH is still useful for might stacking.

Please teach me how to stack might with the grenade kit.

with the summon empowering guardians kit of course!

Rezzet.3614:

Phineas Poe.3018:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

I think engineers are currently the only class with only one viable weapon set. Most other classes have an “optimal DPS” weapon but also have weapons with valid alternative uses. For example, the elementalist has staff for raw DPS but scepter/LH is still useful for might stacking.

Please teach me how to stack might with the grenade kit.

with the summon empowering guardians kit of course!

Do people actually use guardians for Empower? Please.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Rezzet.3614:

Phineas Poe.3018:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

I think engineers are currently the only class with only one viable weapon set. Most other classes have an “optimal DPS” weapon but also have weapons with valid alternative uses. For example, the elementalist has staff for raw DPS but scepter/LH is still useful for might stacking.

Please teach me how to stack might with the grenade kit.

with the summon empowering guardians kit of course!

Do people actually use guardians for Empower? Please.

Empower is a really strong skill in every area of the game (except one).

NevirSayDie.6235:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Rezzet.3614:

Phineas Poe.3018:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

I think engineers are currently the only class with only one viable weapon set. Most other classes have an “optimal DPS” weapon but also have weapons with valid alternative uses. For example, the elementalist has staff for raw DPS but scepter/LH is still useful for might stacking.

Please teach me how to stack might with the grenade kit.

with the summon empowering guardians kit of course!

Do people actually use guardians for Empower? Please.

Empower is a really strong skill in every area of the game (except one).

We’re talking about PvE here, which is presumably the format you’re talking about.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Rezzet.3614:

Phineas Poe.3018:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

I think engineers are currently the only class with only one viable weapon set. Most other classes have an “optimal DPS” weapon but also have weapons with valid alternative uses. For example, the elementalist has staff for raw DPS but scepter/LH is still useful for might stacking.

Please teach me how to stack might with the grenade kit.

with the summon empowering guardians kit of course!

Do people actually use guardians for Empower? Please.

So are you going to answer my question?

The question is simple: Is the class Engineer, or Grenadier?

Right now, the class is Grenadier.

No it isn’t. You are ridiculously overestimating the percentage that play grenades consistently. A great many play bomb build. Particularly due to the fact that the knowledge of bombs superior damage has started to spread.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Rezzet.3614:

Phineas Poe.3018:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

I think engineers are currently the only class with only one viable weapon set. Most other classes have an “optimal DPS” weapon but also have weapons with valid alternative uses. For example, the elementalist has staff for raw DPS but scepter/LH is still useful for might stacking.

Please teach me how to stack might with the grenade kit.

with the summon empowering guardians kit of course!

Do people actually use guardians for Empower? Please.

So are you going to answer my question?

I know you were trolling so I chose to ignore it. Just give it up please.

coglin.1867:

No it isn’t. You are ridiculously overestimating the percentage that play grenades consistently. A great many play bomb build. Particularly due to the fact that the knowledge of bombs superior damage has started to spread.

We’re talking about getting optimal DPS/utility here. You -can- run bombs if you want, sure. You could also run a pistol poison stacking build but that’s besides the point.

All the people in this thread going “I don’t engineer but my grenades not big damage” or alternately “PvE is so easy why bother minmaxing lolol play how you want” are totally missing the point. Not everyone enjoys being the 5th useless member of a pug group with 4 other useless members.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

I know you were trolling so I chose to ignore it. Just give it up please.

Give up what? You said:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

I think engineers are currently the only class with only one viable weapon set. Most other classes have an “optimal DPS” weapon but also have weapons with valid alternative uses. For example, the elementalist has staff for raw DPS but scepter/LH is still useful for might stacking.

So how do you stack might with the grenade kit? Because in your mind it’s better than the bomb kit at it. Apparently.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

I know you were trolling so I chose to ignore it. Just give it up please.

Give up what? You said:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

I think engineers are currently the only class with only one viable weapon set. Most other classes have an “optimal DPS” weapon but also have weapons with valid alternative uses. For example, the elementalist has staff for raw DPS but scepter/LH is still useful for might stacking.

So how do you stack might with the grenade kit? Because in your mind it’s better than the bomb kit at it. Apparently.

BOB > Fire Bomb > Rifle Turret > Heal Turret > Shield 4 > Detonate x2.

Now it’s your turn to tell me why using grenades somehow invalidates that combo.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

We’re talking about getting optimal DPS/utility here. You -can- run bombs if you want, sure. You could also run a pistol poison stacking build but that’s besides the point.

All the people in this thread going “I don’t engineer but my grenades not big damage” or alternately “PvE is so easy why bother minmaxing lolol play how you want” are totally missing the point. Not everyone enjoys being the 5th useless member of a pug group with 4 other useless members.

So, what does any of this rant have to do with the fact that bombs out damage grenades?

You are simply arguing several points in this thread with wrong information. Not to mention your constant contradiction to your own statements. For example, I found a reasonably recent thread in which someone made a comment of this nature to you, and you rudely ripped into them about the value of an engies might stacking+vulnerability stacking combined with its damage, making it one of the most valuable professions in a dungeon or on a boss. Not to mention the damage output you once exclaimed was well above the 5th. Yet here you are, arguing against its value when it suits you. You should really show your credibility a favor, and start showing at least a shred of consistency.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Phineas Poe.3018:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

I know you were trolling so I chose to ignore it. Just give it up please.

Give up what? You said:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

I think engineers are currently the only class with only one viable weapon set. Most other classes have an “optimal DPS” weapon but also have weapons with valid alternative uses. For example, the elementalist has staff for raw DPS but scepter/LH is still useful for might stacking.

So how do you stack might with the grenade kit? Because in your mind it’s better than the bomb kit at it. Apparently.

BOB > Fire Bomb > Rifle Turret > Heal Turret > Shield 4 > Detonate x2.

Now it’s your turn to tell me why using grenades somehow invalidates that combo.

Because none of that involves using the grenade kit?

Phineas Poe.3018:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Phineas Poe.3018:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

I know you were trolling so I chose to ignore it. Just give it up please.

Give up what? You said:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

I think engineers are currently the only class with only one viable weapon set. Most other classes have an “optimal DPS” weapon but also have weapons with valid alternative uses. For example, the elementalist has staff for raw DPS but scepter/LH is still useful for might stacking.

So how do you stack might with the grenade kit? Because in your mind it’s better than the bomb kit at it. Apparently.

BOB > Fire Bomb > Rifle Turret > Heal Turret > Shield 4 > Detonate x2.

Now it’s your turn to tell me why using grenades somehow invalidates that combo.

Because none of that involves using the grenade kit?

Warrior banners don’t involve using the axe or GS either. Should warriors stop using those weapons and only attack directly with the banner?

Err… what? Who said anything about banners?

You’re arguing that the grenade kit is the only viable option we have as engineers, citing elementalists as an example that they can run the staff for max DPS but that the scepter/dagger combo provides more utility that the staff doesn’t: primarily through might stacking.

An engineer can easily construct a build around the bomb kit, taking another blast finisher or the elixir gun over the grenade kit and be more than viable. You came around my build thread not too recently spouting a lot of the same claims you’re tossing around here, largely claiming that the DPS wasn’t competitive. You were proven wrong on this end, falling back only to the fact that the grenade kit stacks better vulnerability. But if the group is reaching 25 vulnerability without the grenade kit, there is no advantage to taking it, meanwhile you have every reason to take the bomb kit: it does more damage, you can stack might with it (which is much harder to come by than vulnerability), and you can stealth skip content with it in conjunction with the Thumper Turret and Elixir S.

I’ve completed nearly every dungeon path in the game with the build while testing it and can safely say that it is equally viable to a grenade-centric build with many advantages the grenade kit doesn’t offer. I’m not a big FOTM runner, but I even dragged myself into FOTM 49 and the build survived just fine. If anything, having the smoke field made the bomb kit a better choice against trash than the grenade kit. I kill Tequatl on a daily basis with my guild, wielding the bomb kit and the elixir gun. I’ve done defense, I’ve done turrets, I’ve done the zerg. I’ve even led several kills with this build. There is not a single situation in PvE where I stop to tell myself that I actually need the grenade kit. With Modified Ammo and Rifle Mod, for the literally three fights in the entire game I have to fight at range, the rifle is more than satisfactory. The only potential exclusion to this is the jellyfish during the underwater fractal, but because you always roll for swamp, you will never see it anymore.

Ultimately speaking, the only reason your grenade kit build can stack might is because it takes the bomb kit. You fail to comprehend that the sword cuts both ways, and that a bomb kit build can easily go without the grenade kit just as much as the grenade kit can go without the bomb kit.

No one would deny that the grenade kit has plenty of advantages offered to it. It has 1500 range, is the best vulnerability stacker, the best bleed stacker, and has access to AoE chilled, blind, and poison. But your accusation that it is the only viable kit for engineers, in any scenario, is completely false. There are quite a number of things that the grenade kit cannot do, where I would be more than happy to slot another utility in favor of it.

Thanks for reporting my rebuttal for disagreeing with you. Here’s the relevant portion for those of us who don’t just want to “play how we want”.

1) Bombs and grenades do almost the same damage. In practice, grenades will do more due to the extra vuln stacks.

2) Grenades can maintain about 22 vuln. Bombs, about 8. Grenades can blast for a stack of 12 might, bombs for 15. So you’re losing 14 vuln to gain 3 might.

And that’s literally all there is to it. Trading a huge stack of vuln, which in general is much harder to cap (it’s pretty much impossible to cap it on a boss without a grenade engineer) for a tiny bit of extra might, which is easily capped by many different groups, is a highly situational thing that you should only be doing every once in a while when the situation calls for it.

So no, the bomb kit’s DPS isn’t competitive, because you’re giving up the engineer’s biggest advantage for absolutely nothing in return.

Yet bombs maintain 18 vulnerability stacks, the damage that bombs do at 18 is more then grenades do at 25.

You have this odd ideology that even though grenades do less damage, you unreasonably claim they do more simply because the number of vulnerability stacks is slightly greater, even though the damage logs prove you wrong.

Huh? I didn’t report your post. I thought that was obvious given I actually took the time to respond to it. If a post gets deleted, all responses to it get removed as well.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

And that’s literally all there is to it. Trading a huge stack of vuln, which in general is much harder to cap (it’s pretty much impossible to cap it on a boss without a grenade engineer) for a tiny bit of extra might, which is easily capped by many different groups, is a highly situational thing that you should only be doing every once in a while when the situation calls for it.

I think there is a lot to dispute here.

1. Might isn’t “situational.” 25 stacks of might is 875 extra power and condition damage to your group, meaning it’s just as important to hand out as much might as you can as you claim it is to stack vulnerability. Might is a boon. Vulnerability is a condition. No allies in this game are immune to boons, but there are several instances where you are destroying emplacements that are immune to conditions.

2. You’re not capping vulnerability if you’re actively swapping into your bomb kit and elixir gun for might stacking. Obviously one cannot toss grenade volleys and activate Big Ol’ Bomb and Acid Bomb at the same time.

3. Might starvation is actually much more common than vulnerability starvation. Only two classes in the game are good at stacking might: elementalists and engineers. All eight classes in the game have access to vulnerability, and copious amounts of it.

4. There are situations where vulnerability doesn’t even matter. Defending batteries at Tequatl is about knockbacks and snares. Chilled and crippled are OK, but they’re not the optimal skills you should be taking. Skills like Magnet, Overcharged Shot, Big Ol’ Bomb, Glue Bomb, Glue Shot, and Air Blast are the best to use against abominations at East Battery. None of them are on the grenade kit. You continue to examine everything under the lens of DPS, but that just isn’t always the priority, and where kits like the flamethrower and tool kit really begin to shine.

The point is: the grenade kit isn’t best at everything. There are plenty of reasons to integrate other kits into your build, and there’s plenty of content in this game that has absolutely nothing to do with individual vulnerability contributions. I thought such statements would be common sense, yet here you are arguing otherwise.

Several postings in this thread have been removed. Please keep in mind to stay on topic and do not derail the thread to prevent it from getting locked.

Wait, engineers actually do damage?
Good (piano keyboard player) engi barely outdamages thief auto with occasional skills.
That is why I went for support engi.
If anything, engi needs a drastic damage increase (don’t forget grenades were already nerfed by 30%)

Don’t forget us non min-maxers who actually run grenades with Elixir R and Elixir S!

\o/

I’ve tried to like the Might stacking (not that I’d consider wasting my heal for 3 Might and then find myself without a heal when I need it) but as a random pugger ranged raise and stealth/invuln/stunbreak is too nice to have.

Ichishi.9613:

Wait, engineers actually do damage?
Good (piano keyboard player) engi barely outdamages thief auto with occasional skills.
That is why I went for support engi.
If anything, engi needs a drastic damage increase (don’t forget grenades were already nerfed by 30%)

The same thief that dies if the boss sneezes on him? I kinda wave my hand at all these claims, from warriors proud of their 100b DPA to super duper thieves who can ‘autoattack with occasional skills’. On paper and in anecdotes these are great. Without a DPS meter that is all we get, paper math and anecdotes. Paper math does not include that dodge that just robbed two seconds of DPS, or that melee that had to stop to go hide and heal up. Let us not even go into downed people.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Huh? I didn’t report your post. I thought that was obvious given I actually took the time to respond to it. If a post gets deleted, all responses to it get removed as well.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

And that’s literally all there is to it. Trading a huge stack of vuln, which in general is much harder to cap (it’s pretty much impossible to cap it on a boss without a grenade engineer) for a tiny bit of extra might, which is easily capped by many different groups, is a highly situational thing that you should only be doing every once in a while when the situation calls for it.

I think there is a lot to dispute here.

1. Might isn’t “situational.” 25 stacks of might is 875 extra power and condition damage to your group, meaning it’s just as important to hand out as much might as you can as you claim it is to stack vulnerability. Might is a boon. Vulnerability is a condition. No allies in this game are immune to boons, but there are several instances where you are destroying emplacements that are immune to conditions.

2. You’re not capping vulnerability if you’re actively swapping into your bomb kit and elixir gun for might stacking. Obviously one cannot toss grenade volleys and activate Big Ol’ Bomb and Acid Bomb at the same time.

3. Might starvation is actually much more common than vulnerability starvation. Only two classes in the game are good at stacking might: elementalists and engineers. All eight classes in the game have access to vulnerability, and copious amounts of it.

4. There are situations where vulnerability doesn’t even matter. Defending batteries at Tequatl is about knockbacks and snares. Chilled and crippled are OK, but they’re not the optimal skills you should be taking. Skills like Magnet, Overcharged Shot, Big Ol’ Bomb, Glue Bomb, Glue Shot, and Air Blast are the best to use against abominations at East Battery. None of them are on the grenade kit. You continue to examine everything under the lens of DPS, but that just isn’t always the priority, and where kits like the flamethrower and tool kit really begin to shine.

The point is: the grenade kit isn’t best at everything. There are plenty of reasons to integrate other kits into your build, and there’s plenty of content in this game that has absolutely nothing to do with individual vulnerability contributions. I thought such statements would be common sense, yet here you are arguing otherwise.

1) Might is situational if your entire group already has enough might. A grenade engie can burst 18 stacks of might using Thumper Turret, or sustain 12. That means the other 4 members of the party only need to maintain 13 stacks all together which is super easy to do.

2) You’re not capping vuln either if you’re not using grenades at all so I fail to see your point. Some vuln > no vuln.

3) Even pugs can cap 25 might. I don’t think it’s even possible to cap vuln on a boss in any party without an engie or extreme levels of coordination. It’s true that most classes give at least a little bit of vuln but you also need a lot more to cap it.

4) Stop doing trash events.

Yeah, there are a couple of encounters where grenades aren’t ideal, just like there are encounters for any class where the standard meta setup isn’t. Doesn’t mean it’s not still the best setup.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

1) Might is situational if your entire group already has enough might. A grenade engie can burst 18 stacks of might using Thumper Turret, or sustain 12. That means the other 4 members of the party only need to maintain 13 stacks all together which is super easy to do.

2) You’re not capping vuln either if you’re not using grenades at all so I fail to see your point. Some vuln > no vuln.

3) Even pugs can cap 25 might. I don’t think it’s even possible to cap vuln on a boss in any party without an engie or extreme levels of coordination. It’s true that most classes give at least a little bit of vuln but you also need a lot more to cap it.

4) Stop doing trash events.

Yeah, there are a couple of encounters where grenades aren’t ideal, just like there are encounters for any class where the standard meta setup isn’t. Doesn’t mean it’s not still the best setup.

take your nade bombs and rifle turret get rid of nades take utility goggles and the sitting duck trait, this will allow you to solo stack 25 vulnerability, stack aoe might and you can further stack vulnerability from the bomb auto to upkeep it between cool downs, i personally would take Elixir gun over the rifle turret because acid bomb alone will deal alot more damage then rifle turret static discharge and still be able to stack might with it, considering you can also cancel the leap animation you don’t have to worry about getting out of melee range to keep using bombs.

assume you threw in thumper turret over the utility goggles you would lose 10 vulnerability but you would be able to stack 18 might and if you toke 2 runes of alturism like i do that’s 21 aoe might the only problem being the large cds on thumper turret so you wont be on the greatest of up times of might, but even if you did lose 10 vulnerability it should be easy to still cap vulnerability from team mates as well, you can say that using my idear wouldn’t be able to upkeep 100% vulnerability but then again you cant say your permanently using nades because apparently your build also involves stacking might which also takes away from your own uptime on vulnerability, also you cant cap vulnerability with nades alone unless your using more condition duration which would actually take away from your total dps unless your team mates are blasting in the poison field from poison nades but then again why would you be wasting blast finishers in poison field when you could stack might with it and lets face it 3 might is better then some vulnerability.

also you could go 25/20/0/0/25 and still upkeep better vulnerability then nades if you take the precise sights and sitting duck traits, you’d be surprised how often you would be proccing vulnerability, so far all im thinking is taking nades brings less to a team fight then a number of other options especially if your approach is to stack vulnerability and team might, now if you dont plan on being the might/vulnerability stacker for your team using bombs and acid bomb at 25 might will heavily out do any dps nades can do your only issue would be surviving in melee range but if you are going outta your way to run a build like this you clearly know what you are doing and chances are so does your team.

im sure there is more i could go into but i feel ive already said enough.

grenades op? bombs useless? nothing to do here …

Phineas Poe.3018:

You mean, the other kits we already have access to? If you feel so burdened by the grenade kit that you cannot reasonably wield anything else, that is pathetic. The grenade kit is not the be-all, end-all weapon in the game regardless of what your mythical spreadsheet tells you.

It isn’t, but it’s remarkably all-around while still being very strong.
And I think it causes compound issues (not the person you quoted, btw :P ) because all traits and utility skills have to be balanced against it. I don’t mind it’s raw power, I mind it’s lack of a weakness.

Assuming grenadier:

• It’s a superb melee weapon with better cleave than any melee weapon.
• It has 1500 range.
• It’s surprisingly accurate due to the relatively small area you aim into.
• It deals good damage.
• It soft-counters zergs due to increased target numbers.
• It works well for proccing traits and runes/sigils due to the high number of hits. Noramlizes them pretty well.

It’s not overpowered, but it’s too well-rounded IMO. I’d prefer it to be stronger but only in one specific thing. Like say, it deals the highest damage of all kits but fairly unreliably into a fairly large area. But then I’d like that even more for the mortar (high damage high utility huge area saturation).

Kanto.1659:

Ichishi.9613:

Wait, engineers actually do damage?
Good (piano keyboard player) engi barely outdamages thief auto with occasional skills.
That is why I went for support engi.
If anything, engi needs a drastic damage increase (don’t forget grenades were already nerfed by 30%)

The same thief that dies if the boss sneezes on him? I kinda wave my hand at all these claims, from warriors proud of their 100b DPA to super duper thieves who can ‘autoattack with occasional skills’. On paper and in anecdotes these are great. Without a DPS meter that is all we get, paper math and anecdotes. Paper math does not include that dodge that just robbed two seconds of DPS, or that melee that had to stop to go hide and heal up. Let us not even go into downed people.

Don’t forget, these crazy min-maxers never die. They are simply too experienced.

If I’m tired or I know I’m having an off day,or in general, I don’t use Grenades. To lazy lol

Ichishi.9613:

Wait, engineers actually do damage?
Good (piano keyboard player) engi barely outdamages thief auto with occasional skills.
That is why I went for support engi.
If anything, engi needs a drastic damage increase (don’t forget grenades were already nerfed by 30%)

I’ve done a fair amount of in game testing with a lot of classes. After the Modified Ammo/Thief Initiative update a solo Rampager or Zerker Engi can out DPS a thief. At least in my tests. This though comes from Vulnerability stacks. Subtracting the stacks brings Grenade damage lower then the thief. So if a Thief had an Engi in group with Vulnerability stacks the Thief would do more overall DPS.

Grenades can bring a lot to the table, but the DPS isn’t crazy like Fire Staff Ele or anything.

Again, from in game solo testing. Damage Coefficients and Scaling could change things. Realistically though, I feel most classes will do good and competitive DPS if built correctly for it.

Blood~