Guild Wars 2

As we all know, the inventions line is only useful for bunker builds, turret builds and a few off-kilter builds that people tend to shy away from for whatever reason. So I thought I’d start a discussion on the topic of improving this particular line.

I’ve come up with a few trait ideas to replace the most unused traits in the line. I believe the most unused ones to be Elite Supplies, Power Shoes and Cloaking device. Let me know if you disagree.

The trait ideas I have to replace them are;

Volatile Inventions (Replacing Elite Supplies): Every time you drop a kit or use a gadget, you create a timed explosive at your location that blows up after 1s. 180 radius.

Gravitational Disparity (Replacing Power shoes): Every time you knock down, launch or pull a target, they are knocked down for at least 3s.

Toolbelt Cleaning device (Replaces Cloaking Device):
You lose 2 conditions when you activate a toolbelt skill GCD 10s.

Those are my ideas for improving the line. Let me know what you guys think on how to improve the inventions line and whether my ideas suck/are OP or not.

Gravitational Disparity seems like it could be…a bit much. It’d need a hefty ICD, considering the sheer amount of knockdowns, launches and pulls available to the Engineer; it would be far too easy to run around with Bomb Kit, Slick Shoes, Portable Battering Ram, and Rifle to keep someone down for, between them…about fifteen seconds, if they were timed right and Hair Trigger were also traited. Then there’s concern over whether they’d stack with internal durations – mostly Slick Shoes with its 2-second knockdown. Could definitely be a bit much.
Volatile Inventions would also likely need an ICD.

Anymras.5729:

Gravitational Disparity seems like it could be…a bit much. It’d need a hefty ICD, considering the sheer amount of knockdowns, launches and pulls available to the Engineer; it would be far too easy to run around with Bomb Kit, Slick Shoes, Portable Battering Ram, and Rifle to keep someone down for, between them…about fifteen seconds, if they were timed right and Hair Trigger were also traited. Then there’s concern over whether they’d stack with internal durations – mostly Slick Shoes with its 2-second knockdown. Could definitely be a bit much.
Volatile Inventions would also likely need an ICD.

The thing you may not have noticed is that Rifle and Big Ol’ Bomb are already 3s KDs if you add the launch durations. The things that would REALLY be improved would be Toolkit and Kit Refinement Bomb Kit.
PBR would only be increased by 1s, Slick shoes 1s, Thumper turret 1s.

Not that bad really.

So they wouldn’t stack with innate durations? Hm. This would be a weird trait. Not sure how it’d all work out in the end, really.

Anymras.5729:

So they wouldn’t stack with innate durations? Hm. This would be a weird trait. Not sure how it’d all work out in the end, really.

No it wouldn’t stack with the innate KD durations. It would just make all KDs last for at least 3s.

Dirame.8521:

As we all know, the inventions line is only useful for bunker builds, turret builds and a few off-kilter builds that people tend to shy away from for whatever reason. So I thought I’d start a discussion on the topic of improving this particular line.

What source did you use to pull this information from? Does this source encompass all of NA, EU, and China players ?

Dirame.8521:

Volatile Inventions (Replacing Elite Supplies): Every time you drop a kit or use a gadget, you create an explosion at your location. 180 radius

I cannot understand wanting to remove the only trait that effects all of our elites. As well it is very good in a turret build. I cannot back anything that takes from a semi popular build. Particularly after we spammed the forum with demands to make turret builds viable for 18 mo.

Dirame.8521:

Gravitational Disparity (Replacing Power shoes): Every time you knock down, launch or pull a target, they are knocked down for at least 3s.

This seems too over the top in my opinion.

Dirame.8521:

Toolbelt Cleaning device (Replaces Cloaking Device):
You lose 2 conditions when you activate a toolbelt skill GCD 10s.

I would love this one more then you know. Alas, Anets stance on keeping our weakness as limited condition removal, I doubt it will happen.

Dirame.8521:

snip
Toolbelt Cleaning device (Replaces Cloaking Device):
You lose 2 conditions when you activate a toolbelt skill GCD 10s.

snip

I think that adding Condi cleanse to the Toolbelt in Inventions is definitely the way to go. Right now Engineer lacks Condi cleanse outside of Alchemy’s 409 and Transmute; relying almost entirely upon Healing Turret. Positioning Condi cleanse in the Inventions line definitely powers up builds previously considered having too many tradeoffs like Static Discharge Engineer to be a little more viable.

Having said that, putting a GCD on Toolbelt Cleansing Device at Adept level is a little problematic in my opinion, because whilst it makes balancing it easy, it also buffs all builds; especially when placed in Adept. I believe that a cleaner implementation could be:

Counteragent autoinjectors, Master Tier, displaces Power Shoes (Power Shoes moves down to Adept)

• Using a Toolbelt skill cleanses 1 condition. Cooldown: 15 seconds per Toolbelt skill

This implementation is important because it is very specifically buffing Toolbelt skills that have historically low cooldowns; namely, those of Gadgets and some Turrets. Kit Toolbelts by contrast have relatively long cooldowns outside of Tool Kit’s Wrench Toss.

I believe that this design goal is important to consider because it enables diversification of builds by putting in inbuilt tradeoffs inherent to the Toolbelt design. It also allows some depth of play to the trait rather than simply upping cleanses per minute – the Engineer can blow all his TB skills for a 4 clear; or against steady pressure, he can eke them out.

The individual cooldown per Toolbelt skill also buffs Gadget and Rifle Turret builds more as they have shorter CD on their TB skills; which opens up build variety without opening up the spectre of another apex predator. It’s also notable that all of the high utility toolbelts, like Grenade Barrage or Big Ol Bomb or Toss Elixir S – all these TBs have long CDs that would have little destabilising effect on current meta builds. Indeed, trying to slot the trait in the current meta builds would be of a great detriment due to losing not only Invigorating Speed and Backpack Regenerator; the 20% Boon duration would also be a significant loss for the current Might stacking focused builds.

MonMalthias.4763:

Counteragent autoinjectors, Master Tier, displaces Power Shoes (Power Shoes moves down to Adept)

Using a Toolbelt skill cleanses 1 condition. Cooldown: 15 seconds per Toolbelt skill

My problem with this is the ICD. In my opinion that is the one thing that makes kit refinement worthless too. I cannot stand making a trait effect multiple skills, then simply adding an ICD to it so that it does really make a difference if it effects multiple skills.

The other thing is, all you are doing, is essentially adding another, weaker version of transmute. Except this one doesn’t convert it too a boon, and takes1 more trait point worth of investment. Personally I do not see too many players wanting to invest 4 more trait points to get one more condition cleanse when we have one that does it for 3 already, that also converts it to a boon.

Dirame.8521:

Gravitational Disparity (Replacing Power shoes): Every time you knock down, launch or pull a target, they are knocked down for at least 3s.

I think that there’s a lot of potential for abuse in this one; especially in combination with Magnet pull; as Magnet would now not only generate a positional advantage, but also have guaranteed CC frames after the pull; whereas opponents could previously Stunbreak even relatively late into the pull and mash dodge to avoid getting wombo comboed.

I appreciate the balance intent in buffing things like Magnetic Bomb for KR or Throw Mine; but there’s a ton of things that would have to be reconsidered if this trait to exist. The most pressing would definitely be the existence of Accelerant Packed Turrets. APT and this trait would turn the Turret Engineer into the bane of everyone without Stability; and would actually make Turret Engineer a potent CC force for teamfights. Imagine the Hambow Warrior with a 180 Radius AOE Backbreaker…every 10 seconds (Rotating Healing Turret and Rifle Turret exclusively; but weave in Flame Turret or Throw Mine and you get ~7 seconds average time between KD for a ludicrous 30+% uptime of hard CC. That’s a little much.

Having said that, there really needs to be an on Interrupt trigger for Engineer that isn’t Synaptic Overload; because the whole design of that trait is trash. Right now the reward for Engineer landing his CC is the ability to combo it into more damage; whereas classes like the Mesmer and the Warrior both can have Interrupt-based builds and be rewarded with damage (Distracting Strikes, Halting Strike) to supplement their lockdown – which Synaptic Overload completely fails at doing.

I think a slightly stronger – yet more counterplayable – implementation could be:

Gravitational Disparity
- Inflict 5 stacks of Vulnerability for 5 seconds when you Control a Foe (Stun, Pull, Knockdown, Daze, Launch). Interrupting a foe, causes your next attack to have 100% Critical Chance and decreases the cooldown of your Toolbelt Skills by 1 second. (No ICD)

This kind of implementation again, is a buff strictly designed for Static Discharge Engineer, or Rifle Toolkit Throw Mine Control setups. It makes for a very potent burst combo by guaranteeing SD or Rifle Crits; yet as those burst skills all have windup or travel time they are counterplayable. It also emphasises closing the gap for Engineer; as Engineer’s most potent CC skills and setups work from sub-600 range (Magnet Pull excepted).

At Master Tier, it would directly compete with Counteragent Autoinjectors so there would have to be some opportunity cost. Alternatively, it could be placed in Adept, because Adept Inventions is pretty trash. In this instance it would be best to displace Energised Armour. Energised Armour could instead be put into the 5 point slot to displace Low Health Response System, because not a single percentage stat conversion should ever be a Major slot trait; they’re just too passive and by extension limited in power.

dancingmonkey.4902:

MonMalthias.4763:

Counteragent autoinjectors, Master Tier, displaces Power Shoes (Power Shoes moves down to Adept)

Using a Toolbelt skill cleanses 1 condition. Cooldown: 15 seconds per Toolbelt skill

My problem with this is the ICD. In my opinion that is the one thing that makes kit refinement worthless too. I cannot stand making a trait effect multiple skills, then simply adding an ICD to it so that it does really make a difference if it effects multiple skills.

The other thing is, all you are doing, is essentially adding another, weaker version of transmute. Except this one doesn’t convert it too a boon, and takes1 more trait point worth of investment. Personally I do not see too many players wanting to invest 4 more trait points to get one more condition cleanse when we have one that does it for 3 already, that also converts it to a boon.

You read it wrong. 15 seconds per individual Toolbelt skill is in fact quite strong, because at minimum it guarantees an extra 4 cleanses per minute; and activating TB skills on cooldown could peak at 16 extra cleanses per minute. That’s huge for SD builds, and is tantamount to Cleansing Ire levels of Cleanse (Which peaks at 21 cleanses per minute, assuming every Adrenaline burst hits at triple bar each and every single time). SD Builds with an average of ~15 or so seconds CD on their bar (with the occasional 40 second Analyze or 60 second Toss Elixir S) could expect to see ~20-25 seconds averaged cooldown across all TB skills, which is approximately 9-12 cleanses per minute where none had existed before; and before factoring in additional cleanses.

If you factor in:

• Overcharged shot, which cleanses snares (Immobilise, Cripple, Chill)
• Healing Turret (6-8 cleanses per minute)
• Med Kit Antidote (4 cleanses per minute; and in the future; also cleanses Immobilise and another Condition)
• Super Elixir (3 cleanses per minute)

Even running even just Healing Turret with this trait means that Engineer is already at a cleansing output of ~15 cleanses per minute…on the low end for your average SD build. On something like Triple Kit, it would be running on an additional 6 cleanses per minute. On something like Triple Turret, one kit, again, something close to almost an additional 6 cleanses per minute. That’s all without the opportunity cost of running anything that inherently cleanses conditions; with anything that does being just gravy.

Not having a GCD is also less restricting; and in fact is almost too strong with the right setup of low CD toolbelt skills. Running something like Healing Turret, Rifle Turret, Toolkit, Elixir Gun, the average CD is (25+10+20+40)/4 = 23.75 seconds. Factor in Tools 20% CDR for an SD trait setup and the average CD is ~20 seconds and per minute one would expect to get an additional 3 cleanses per minute per Toolbelt skill or 12.

If you don’t consider that “strong enough”; and this is before factoring in Inertial Converter, or the 30 Tools bonus which would push it to 13 cleanses per minute – and this is with a “long CD” TB skill of Regenerating Mist dragging the average down – then you might be better off using Elixir C.

MonMalthias.4763:

I think that there’s a lot of potential for abuse in this one; especially in combination with Magnet pull; as Magnet would now not only generate a positional advantage, but also have guaranteed CC frames after the pull; whereas opponents could previously Stunbreak even relatively late into the pull and mash dodge to avoid getting wombo comboed.

You should still be able to stun break and dodge out of it if they just make it an extension of the skill rather than another skill applied a second after the pull.

MonMalthias.4763:

I appreciate the balance intent in buffing things like Magnetic Bomb for KR or Throw Mine; but there’s a ton of things that would have to be reconsidered if this trait to exist. The most pressing would definitely be the existence of _Accelerant Packed.

The idea is to have the trait only affect pulls, knockdowns and launches, skills that already leave the enemy on the ground for a few seconds. Push backs like Mine, or APT don’t knock you down, they just push you back.

I really don’t think it will be all that powerful since, like I said earlier. It’s mostly going to add 1s to most knockdowns and launches. And it’s not like it nullifies stability or stun breaks and it’s also not like you can’t chain CC someone right now with the same level of devastation.

dancingmonkey.4902:

What source did you use to pull this information from? Does this source encompass all of NA, EU, and China players ?

I’m just going by what I’ve seen but you tell me. What other builds use the inventions line apart from the ones I’ve listed?

dancingmonkey.4902:

I cannot understand wanting to remove the only trait that effects all of our elites. As well it is very good in a turret build. I cannot back anything that takes from a semi popular build. Particularly after we spammed the forum with demands to make turret builds viable for 18 mo.

Turret builds don’t use Elite supplies. Turret builds would rather take Auto-tool Installation or Metal Plating.

Dirame.8521:

Volatile Inventions (Replacing Elite Supplies): Every time you drop a kit or use a gadget, you create an explosion at your location. 180 radius

I was watching CmC’s stream one day sometime around last month when he off-handedly mentioned that “weapon swaps are the least counterplayable thing in the game” on the subject of On-Swap sigils like Battle, Hydromancy, Geomancy and Energy. It was kind of a revelation for me because I hadn’t looked at it in that way before.

Now, in this time of Celestial/Strength/Battle sigil setups that pervade the post April Feature Patch era, the statement has never been more relevant. Battle Sigil in particular grants 9-12 stacks of Might across 30 seconds; able to be carried over to the next rotational fight due to the stacks lasting ~30 seconds or so with Strength Runes…by itself. Which works out to be ~306 bonus Power and Condition damage, no counterplay in sight barring Boon rips. 612 Bonus stats is no joke.

Remember when Guanglai Kangyi posted that video of “Engineers do no DPS” when Kit Refinement had yet to be nerfed, Med Kit swap had an explosion, Bomb Kit swap dropped a 1.25 coefficient Bomb, Grenade Kit swap dropped Grenade Barrage, and Guang played the kits like a piano to kill the Risen Giant in seconds? I can’t find that link for the life of me at the moment, but this is what the trait promises a return to. I think that when Anet chose to nerf KR in the way it did, they had seen that video.

The trait design is also entirely passive as well; providing “free” damage without counterplay or opportunity cost at melee range, a range where Engineer already excels with BK autoattacks with 1.25 Power Coefficient in 240 radius per 0.6 seconds (2.09 coeff. per second autoattack, pretty much the highest in game).

I just don’t see how this is a positive trait design; being just about as passive as Bunker Down (Literally trash) or Modified Ammunition (the bread and butter of PvE players). There’s no play, no counterplay, no differentiation, just damage.

Now, Elite Supplies is a bad trait, and people should feel bad for taking it, but replacing it with a passive melee DPS trait isn’t helping things either. It also just so happens to be an OP trait in the right setup in…you guessed it, Turret builds; turning Supply Crate into an “I win” button for any duel or even 1v2; even if the stun itself is missed. It’s a terrible situation all around, but replacing it isn’t the answer.

Dirame.8521:

MonMalthias.4763:

I think that there’s a lot of potential for abuse in this one; especially in combination with Magnet pull; as Magnet would now not only generate a positional advantage, but also have guaranteed CC frames after the pull; whereas opponents could previously Stunbreak even relatively late into the pull and mash dodge to avoid getting wombo comboed.

You should still be able to stun break and dodge out of it if they just make it an extension of the skill rather than another skill applied a second after the pull.

MonMalthias.4763:

I appreciate the balance intent in buffing things like Magnetic Bomb for KR or Throw Mine; but there’s a ton of things that would have to be reconsidered if this trait to exist. The most pressing would definitely be the existence of _Accelerant Packed.

The idea is to have the trait only affect pulls, knockdowns and launches, skills that already leave the enemy on the ground for a few seconds. Push backs like Mine, or APT don’t knock you down, they just push you back.

I really don’t think it will be all that powerful since, like I said earlier. It’s mostly going to add 1s to most knockdowns and launches. And it’s not like it nullifies stability or stun breaks and it’s also not like you can’t chain CC someone right now with the same level of devastation.

Hm, from that perspective, it sounds practically underpowered. It’s definitely something that would require playtesting more than theorycrafting. I do think, however, that this is pretty much a Sigil of Paralyzation by any other name; and it doesn’t really do anything to change Engineer’s matchups in any way aside from making it a living hell for classes with limited Stability access like Necro or Thief or Ele; and of those classes, only Necro in a Power build (which already is ~50/50) would be significantly changed in matchup; with Engineer bodying Thief in most instances, and the matchup being essentially unchanged for Engi vs Ele assuming both are running Celestial (Engi Celestial Rifle Control, Ele Dagger Dagger Celestial).

In addition, with it only affecting essentially Magnet Pull and Magnetic Bomb significantly, (since as you said, pushes like APT or Magnetic Inversion don’t count) would make it a pretty hard ask for Engineers to slot in any build. KR is already borderline unusable outside of single kit builds; whilst the problems with Magnet pull don’t lie within its CC frames but rather its propensity to cause horrendous desync issues. Having any trait only affect essentially 2 skills in a Major slot is horrendous, and was the prime driver for Anet to change Lightning Rod for Elementalist and take its skill floor away without instead giving more Interrupts to Ele.

MonMalthias.4763:

Now, Elite Supplies is a bad trait, and people should feel bad for taking it, but replacing it with a passive melee DPS trait isn’t helping things either. It also just so happens to be an OP trait in the right setup in…you guessed it, Turret builds; turning Supply Crate into an “I win” button for any duel or even 1v2; even if the stun itself is missed. It’s a terrible situation all around, but replacing it isn’t the answer.

I understand everything else you said but I never said it would affect turrets. I specifically put in when you drop a kit or use a gadget. Just kits and gadgets. I wouldn’t want a trait that made the turret engie more powerful, that would be atrocious.

My goal was to create something that allowed people to stray away from static discharge as the only burst build and delve into a combination like, Volatile explosions with Gravitational Disparity, using a chain of Magnet pull (KD for 3s with Grav Disparity), Prybar, Volatile Explosion proc, Blunderbuss or Magnet pull, Volatile explosion proc, Jump Shot for their burst options.

Since you say the instant nature of the skill would make it as brain dead as running a sigil of battle then a change could always be made. For instance, you could drop a timed explosive of 1s or 2s when you drop a kit or use a gadget, giving the target a bit of time to stun break and dodge out of the skill. The reward would only then come when you are able to keep the person standing long enough to receive the full brunt of the skill’s damage. It would even then keep with the theme I was going for which is reminiscent of Mission Impossible’s self-destructing messages that always blow up 3s after Tom Cruise is done with them.

MonMalthias.4763:

Dirame.8521:

MonMalthias.4763:

I think that there’s a lot of potential for abuse in this one; especially in combination with Magnet pull; as Magnet would now not only generate a positional advantage, but also have guaranteed CC frames after the pull; whereas opponents could previously Stunbreak even relatively late into the pull and mash dodge to avoid getting wombo comboed.

You should still be able to stun break and dodge out of it if they just make it an extension of the skill rather than another skill applied a second after the pull.

MonMalthias.4763:

I appreciate the balance intent in buffing things like Magnetic Bomb for KR or Throw Mine; but there’s a ton of things that would have to be reconsidered if this trait to exist. The most pressing would definitely be the existence of _Accelerant Packed.

The idea is to have the trait only affect pulls, knockdowns and launches, skills that already leave the enemy on the ground for a few seconds. Push backs like Mine, or APT don’t knock you down, they just push you back.

I really don’t think it will be all that powerful since, like I said earlier. It’s mostly going to add 1s to most knockdowns and launches. And it’s not like it nullifies stability or stun breaks and it’s also not like you can’t chain CC someone right now with the same level of devastation.

Hm, from that perspective, it sounds practically underpowered. It’s definitely something that would require playtesting more than theorycrafting. I do think, however, that this is pretty much a Sigil of Paralyzation by any other name; and it doesn’t really do anything to change Engineer’s matchups in any way aside from making it a living hell for classes with limited Stability access like Necro or Thief or Ele; and of those classes, only Necro in a Power build (which already is ~50/50) would be significantly changed in matchup; with Engineer bodying Thief in most instances, and the matchup being essentially unchanged for Engi vs Ele assuming both are running Celestial (Engi Celestial Rifle Control, Ele Dagger Dagger Celestial).

In addition, with it only affecting essentially Magnet Pull and Magnetic Bomb significantly, (since as you said, pushes like APT or Magnetic Inversion don’t count) would make it a pretty hard ask for Engineers to slot in any build. KR is already borderline unusable outside of single kit builds; whilst the problems with Magnet pull don’t lie within its CC frames but rather its propensity to cause horrendous desync issues. Having any trait only affect essentially 2 skills in a Major slot is horrendous, and was the prime driver for Anet to change Lightning Rod for Elementalist and take its skill floor away without instead giving more Interrupts to Ele.

But Lightning Rod wasn’t in a major slot, it’s in a Grandmaster slot and it makes more sense for that to be more synergetic with the class’ mechanics

Grav Disparity on the other hand would be in a major slot and right from the get go it does affect quite a few skills that functionally are what the Engie is mostly about (Crowd Control). Everyone knows how much 1s can make a lot of difference in a PvP setting so I wouldn’t count out things like Thumper turret launching 5 people and leaving them on the ground for 3 seconds only for you to get the decap on a point.

Hm, it’s certainly an interesting concept, but again, it doesn’t really reward Engi with better followup damage; it just buffs Engi where Engi is already strong, which is CC “setup” skills. It just feels redundant to me, is all.

On the other hand, if Engineer were to be rewarded with say, a guaranteed Crit on Interrupting a Target, now that would be something of note. It’s readable because people expect Engi to followup things like Magnet Pull with big damage; even without looking at the Buff bar or another visual effect like big glowing red hands.

On the other hand, taking away Elite Supplies to only buff CC setup skills that are already strong just seems like a recipe for the baseline skills to be nerfed instead; because now with a trait the potential for stunlock is stronger without stability uptime. And given that Thumper Turret with Rocket Turret on point +/- Net Turret is already part of the Turret Engineer’s stunlock combo it could very well be the straw that breaks the camel’s back for Turret point holder builds. At the very least, Big Ol Bomb is well telegraphed and time-able; whereas Overcharges have no discernible tell aside from that tiny glow and sparking on the Turret, easily lost in the visual noise of a full Turret build itself; let alone the visual cacophony of an actual fight.

Don’t get me wrong, I like the concept of the trait, it’s just that I don’t think it really adds anything new to the Engineer. CC Engineer is already strong; it just lacks consistent damage without resorting to Static Discharge or Air/Fire Sigil.

Dirame.8521:

MonMalthias.4763:

snip

I understand everything else you said but I never said it would affect turrets. I specifically put in when you drop a kit or use a gadget. Just kits and gadgets. I wouldn’t want a trait that made the turret engie more powerful, that would be atrocious

Sorry, I think you misread a little. I was specifically referring to Elite Supplies already being taken in “Turret Death” builds that run short CD Turrets like Rifle or Flame Turret with the Fortified Turrets and Accelerant Packed Turrets trait; cycling in and out Turrets for high Reflect Uptime and CC. Elite Supplies is taken over Autotool Installation because in Turret Death you don’t need your turrets to regen, you want them to be dropped, fire once or twice for a few seconds, then be killed or picked up to cycle the Reflection.

In that context, Elite Supplies is huge because it not only allows a fight reset with all the bandage pickups, it also drops an additional turret for more DPS and shields and APT detonations.

I was specifically talking about what the current context of Elite Supplies was rather than your Volatile Inventions trait.

With regards to Volatile Inventions itself I think it might be fine if the damage was delayed, although then it isn’t really that much different from Bunker Down in that context. It’s not really differentiated enough from Bunker Down to be useful in its own right.

I’ve been wanting to have a viable, true “melee” Bomb Kit build for a while that doesn’t exclusively focus on the BK 1 autoattack and that which specifically made not only the BK 2,3,4,5 skills more viable in a Power build, but also more telegraphed for Counterplay reasons.

I think a useful trait; perhaps in the vein of Volatile Inventions would be something like Path of Exile’s Concentrated Effect where instead of this 240 radius traited kiting cleave, BK was instead transformed into a true “melee” weapon in its own right. (Skill Coefficients from Casia) :

Shaped Charges

• Your Bomb Kit attacks now damage foes in an arc, but are stronger. In addition, you now roll out Bomb attacks that explode upon contacting a target.
• BK 1,2,3,4,5 now affect foes in a 120 degree arc
  • BK1 is still 1.25 coefficient, which seems like an overall nerf due to smaller area but:
  • BK2 now pulses for 0.5 coefficient per second (seems low, but keep in mind the Burning)
  • BK3 now deals 1.0 coefficient and cleanses up to 4 Conditions on a foe. Now deals _bonus 0.25 coefficient per condition cleansed. (Reaping!) Confusion left intact but duration shortened to 3 seconds.
  • BK4 unchanged; retains its circular smoke field
  • BK5 now immobilises in a 120 degree arc for 2 seconds on detonation and pulses Cripple for 1 second per second. The glue itself rips 1 boon every 3 seconds (i.e. 1 on detonation, 1 on last pulse)

What this does is turn BK into a strong melee kit that still relies on Skill Shots, as actually hitting an enemy with the rolling bomb is now important; just as it is with Grenade Kit. I envision the casting animation to be like a nice sedate round of lawn bowls, with more explosions.

Right now I feel that BK is a somewhat spammy, hard to counterplay weapon kit, because a lot of its surprise factor comes from the fact that bombs are dropped at the Engineer’s feet, with little tell as to which Bomb it is. They’re not even colour coded. At most, Fire Bomb and Smoke Bomb have different smoke effects, but Concussion bomb, arguably the strongest bomb out of the kit in a Condi build, looks almost the same as the autoattack.

BK is also pretty brain-dead in PvE as its strong autoattack allows Engineer to just sit and cleave targets (when not Grenade autoattacking for Vulnerability uptime). Loading practically all of the Power coefficients into the autoattack is also pretty terrible design because it makes BK a lot harder to justify in anything bar a condition build; thus limiting build diversity.

This kind of trait also flips the Bomb Kit base design on its head, turning it from an area denial kiting condi focused weapon to a melee weapon that scales off of power.

Then again, this kind of Explosives focus makes it more of a trait in that trait line than Inventions; but I really do feel that BK needs to be better not only for Power builds overall, but have better counterplay; and supersede Grenade kit where it matters: Melee Range

power shoes is good enough to keep as it is.

insanemaniac.2456:

power shoes is good enough to keep as it is.

To be honest, Engineer really lacks good traits in the Adept tier of Inventions. It’s hard to justify putting points into the otherwise “okay” Inventions line for the Master Tier because the general non-turret traits outside of Power Shoes and Reinforced Shield just aren’t that good.

Moving Power Shoes to Adept basically reduces the opportunity cost of not going Speedy Kits. Right now you can run Power Shoes/Adrenal Implant for almost equivalent functionality as Speedy Kits/Invigorating Speed; yet one costs 20 points, the other costs 50 (!!!). Reducing some of that disparity; even if only by 10 points would help diversify builds.

I think what should happen for Adept Tier (in my opinion at least is):
Move Energised Armour to the 5 point trait, to replace Low Health Response system. 15 Inventions already doubles down on the 25% HP reset heal and this functionality is redundant considering how many sources of Regen we can get through our utility skills anyway

Stabilised Armour needs a different mechanic to differentiate it from Protection Injection; and also to prevent “doubling down”. -53% damage on stuns is kind of broken, if hilarious

• Honestly it’d be good for Engineers to actually get some Stability and use the name of the trait. I was thinking about Predictive trait mechanics the other day and here’s something I’ve been spitballing:

Stabilised Armour

• Gain a unique buff – Stabilised Armour – for 2 seconds after using a Toolbelt Skill. If you are struck by a hard CC effect during this time, gain Stability for 2 seconds. (ICD 30 seconds). Does not block the initial CC effect.
  • The goal of this trait is to essentially prevent stunlock combos for Engineer. However, the initial CC isn’t blocked, so if you don’t stunbreak, you’re still liable for big damage.
  • One could make it more powerful by simply making Toolbelt skills stunbreak every 40 seconds; which is more reactive than predictive. It kind of invalidates Regenerating Mist and Rumble though; and at Adept this kind of thing is quite strong; whereas a predictive trait can be counterplayed by enemies simply with-holding their Ckittenil the telegraph ends; just like Block frames are dealt with now.

Cloaking Device used to be taken when people were all running Pistol/X due to Rifle having horrid aftercast on Jump Shot and Blunderbuss having awful tracking. Now that Rifle is fixed, no-one takes it anymore. Instead of having a passive mechanic there should be something better.

• Engineer outside of Elixir S has a really hard time getting secure stomps or secure resses. Therefore:

Cloaking Device

• Gain Stealth when you attempt to Stomp a foe, or Resurrect an ally for 3 seconds.
  • Not sure about an ICD for this one. As it is, however, it already kind of treads on Thief’s toes; but Thief has far more tools to enter Stealth for Stomping anyway.

Protective Shield again, doubles down on all these passive defensive traits all at adept Tier. There needs to be some differentiation, somewhere instead of all these passive defensive procs.

• How about something offensive? Something that uses the offhand shield for more offense, just as Shimmering Defense for Guardian allows it to Burn enemies while blocking, or for Warrior, to deflect missiles.

Discombobulating Shield

• Gaining Aegis, or Blocking grants Retaliation for 3 seconds. Interrupting foes with a Shield skill strikes them with a bolt of lightning (0.5 coefficient of Power) and causes 2 stacks of Confusion for 3 seconds.
  • At Adept Tier, this would make offhand shield into a powerful offensive tool rather than being taken for its Blast finisher. If new weapons come online, and mainhand shield happens to be one of them, this trait just got atrociously strong.

Explosive descent is meh. It’s “okay” in WvW when you could 100nades people from jumping off cliffs; but fall damage traits are really, really bad.

• Honestly, since every class’s fall damage traits are terrible, I won’t suggest anything.

MonMalthias.4763:

To be honest, Engineer really lacks good traits in the Adept tier of Inventions. It’s hard to justify putting points into the otherwise “okay” Inventions line for the Master Tier because the general non-turret traits outside of Power Shoes and Reinforced Shield just aren’t that good.

Moving Power Shoes to Adept basically reduces the opportunity cost of not going Speedy Kits. Right now you can run Power Shoes/Adrenal Implant for almost equivalent functionality as Speedy Kits/Invigorating Speed; yet one costs 20 points, the other costs 50 (!!!). Reducing some of that disparity; even if only by 10 points would help diversify builds.

It isn’t like you don’t pick up other things too with these 50 points. Imo Power Shoes isn’t in a bad spot, it’s just that Speedy Kits is more available and in a more popular traitline. Also, there are barely builds without kits so kitswapping is a requirement that is easily fulfilled.
Power Shoes is not in need of change. It’s a plain unconditional unremoveable speed increase that does it’s job.

MonMalthias.4763:

I think what should happen for Adept Tier (in my opinion at least is):
Move Energised Armour to the 5 point trait, to replace Low Health Response system. 15 Inventions already doubles down on the 25% HP reset heal and this functionality is redundant considering how many sources of Regen we can get through our utility skills anyway

Agreed. Any ideas what to do with the major LHRS then?

MonMalthias.4763:

Stabilised Armour needs a different mechanic to differentiate it from Protection Injection; and also to prevent “doubling down”. -53% damage on stuns is kind of broken, if hilarious

• Honestly it’d be good for Engineers to actually get some Stability and use the name of the trait. I was thinking about Predictive trait mechanics the other day and here’s something I’ve been spitballing:

Stabilised Armour

• Gain a unique buff – Stabilised Armour – for 2 seconds after using a Toolbelt Skill. If you are struck by a hard CC effect during this time, gain Stability for 2 seconds. (ICD 30 seconds). Does not block the initial CC effect.
  • The goal of this trait is to essentially prevent stunlock combos for Engineer. However, the initial CC isn’t blocked, so if you don’t stunbreak, you’re still liable for big damage.
  • One could make it more powerful by simply making Toolbelt skills stunbreak every 40 seconds; which is more reactive than predictive. It kind of invalidates Regenerating Mist and Rumble though; and at Adept this kind of thing is quite strong; whereas a predictive trait can be counterplayed by enemies simply with-holding their Ckittenil the telegraph ends; just like Block frames are dealt with now.

First impression: Interesting but too specific and a bit clunky. Minors, especially adept ones are better off with little but more generally useful effects. It seems more like a possible counterpick for fighting chain-CC’ers.

My suggestion for Stabilized Armor as 5/1pt minor: +160 toughness while not moving.

MonMalthias.4763:

Cloaking Device

• Gain Stealth when you attempt to Stomp a foe, or Resurrect an ally for 3 seconds.
  • Not sure about an ICD for this one. As it is, however, it already kind of treads on Thief’s toes; but Thief has far more tools to enter Stealth for Stomping anyway.

Should stealth (only) the ally when you are ressing and stealth yourself when stomping. Definately needs an ICD.

Dirame.8521:

dancingmonkey.4902:

What source did you use to pull this information from? Does this source encompass all of NA, EU, and China players ?

I’m just going by what I’ve seen but you tell me. What other builds use the inventions line apart from the ones I’ve listed?

Pin regen support build. Most engineer WvW commander builds.

Dirame.8521:

dancingmonkey.4902:

I cannot understand wanting to remove the only trait that effects all of our elites. As well it is very good in a turret build. I cannot back anything that takes from a semi popular build. Particularly after we spammed the forum with demands to make turret builds viable for 18 mo.

Turret builds don’t use Elite supplies. Turret builds would rather take Auto-tool Installation or Metal Plating.

They don’t use elite supply? Do you have metric for this as well? Because I am starting to feel like you are forcing your notion on the rest of us, based on those you know in your circles, and presuming that represents the entire community. A great many that I know use it over Auto-tool Installation hands down, because 5% health every 3s does next to nothing for a turrets survivability in my opinion. Yet, as I see it, extra heals, extra damage, additional shielding, and extra fury offer a lot in combination.

You appear to have an odd habit of making definitive exclamations about what the entirety of the community does or doesn’t do, and then push the idea that we should be or actually are doing things with in the realm of your perception of the community. That is simply not the case.

Silinsar.6298:

snip
It isn’t like you don’t pick up other things too with these 50 points. Imo Power Shoes isn’t in a bad spot, it’s just that Speedy Kits is more available and in a more popular traitline. Also, there are barely builds without kits so kitswapping is a requirement that is easily fulfilled.
Power Shoes is not in need of change. It’s a plain unconditional unremoveable speed increase that does it’s job.

That’s quite true. As a class we are pretty spoiled for permaswiftness; whilst other classes like Necro or Guardian don’t even get a traiting option; they have to run Runes of Speed or Traveller. Fair enough.

MonMalthias.4763:

I think what should happen for Adept Tier (in my opinion at least is):
Move Energised Armour to the 5 point trait, to replace Low Health Response system. 15 Inventions already doubles down on the 25% HP reset heal and this functionality is redundant considering how many sources of Regen we can get through our utility skills anyway

Silinsar.6298:

Agreed. Any ideas what to do with the major LHRS then?

LHRS is problematic in that it’s kind of just there. Unlike other classes like Mesmer and Metaphysical Regeneration ; there’s little synergy further down the line (Illusionary Membrane or PU) I think that with Alchemy using Boons for Survival as its theme, so too should Inventions use Toolbelt skills and the Toolbelt mechanic for its survival. It also ties in very nicely with adding utility to Toolbelt skills for Turrets and Gadgets or Elixirs ; whilst Kits have traditionally had longer cooldown TB skills or are less dependant upon them.

To that end, there should be a few design goals set for LHRS:

• It should be leveraging the Toolbelt system
• It should be “good enough” for an Adept trait to justify taking over other powerful proposed effects like Stabilised Armour or Protective Shield; yet “weak enough” to prevent doubling down causing unbalancing synergies later on down the line.

One of the major things that are missing from Inventions as yet is Gadget traits. Now, I’ve proposed Counteragent Autoinjectors earlier on in the thread that counters condis across all Toolbelt skills, so that’s out of the question. Gadget builds right now lack sustain; and this is mirrored across practically every Gadget; even the A.E.D heal that promotes spike healing over sustain.

So for Gadgets, I believe that LHRS could tie into that line of utilities, and address sustain. How about:

Low Health Response System

• Activating Gadgets heals you a small amount. The amount healed increases with decreasing health:
• 75% + HP: 100 base, 0.2 Healing Power scaling (300 HP per activation at 1000 Healing Power)
• 50% – 75% HP: 200 base, 0.2 Healing Power scaling (400 HP per activation at 1000 Healing Power)
• 25% – 50% HP: 300 base, 0.2 Healing Power Scaling (500 HP per activation at 1000 Healing Power)
• 25% and below HP: 400 base, 0.6 Healing Power scaling (1000 HP per activation at 1000 Healing Power)

Obviously the brackets and scaling could do with some work but again, the trait is intended for sustain over spike healing as it is for a Med Guardian or a Shout Warrior. It might even be better to simply have a 50% plus bracket and 50% and below bracket for simplicity of tooltips. Regardless, the Healing should be on the level of Regeneration; but instead scaled upwards as Health decreases. The last bracket being such a huge increase in healing (double vs the third bracket) is intended to really emphasise its importance at low health than it is at high health.

Silinsar.6298:

MonMalthias.4763:

Stabilised Armour stuff
snip

First impression: Interesting but too specific and a bit clunky. Minors, especially adept ones are better off with little but more generally useful effects. It seems more like a possible counterpick for fighting chain-CC’ers.

My suggestion for Stabilized Armor as 5/1pt minor: +160 toughness while not moving.

I think that with the universal failure that was Scope providing bonus precision while not moving should have been enough of a lesson to Anet to not emphasise Immobility in an action MMO.

If we must get into unreadable passives, I’d be happy with:

Stabilised Armour

• Gain 50 Toughness for every Toolbelt Skill on cooldown. (Detonate Turret does not count as a Toolbelt skill on cooldown)

Now I’m not really happy with unreadable passives like this, but builds like Gadget and Turret Engi are quite a bit more dependant on their Toolbelts than Kit Engineers, so this could be the way to go for an Adept Major, or Minor.

But I do think that there needs to be a lot more predictive play in this game to replace all these 25% HP passives or literally just randomly “On Hit” passives that just bloat the combat with unreadable procs.

Having, say, Transmute proc a 2 second “next incoming Condition converted to Boon” on Heal or Toolbelt skill, with the Engineer having this oily sheen when it procs would go a long way towards making the game a lot more readable and predictable. I intended the same thing with Stabilised Armour as well; with the visual cue being perhaps a blocky glow around the Engineer’s legs that simulates a pillar in shape – to call upon the Stability boon; yet somehow different, whilst warning opponents of impending Stability.

Its a lot better than stunning an Engi only to notice you are dealing practically no damage to him, no visual cues aside from Protection popping up from Prot Injection. And again, it’s intended to address stunlock combos like Necro Fear chaining or Warrior Hammertime or (impending) Mesmer triple Mantra of Distraction in AOE.

It’s clunky, to be sure. Perhaps a better way would simply to make it give the unique buff, then apply Stability for 2 and prevent the CC; which essentially turns Stabilised Armour into a predictive stunbreak.

Silinsar.6298:

MonMalthias.4763:

Cloaking Device

• Gain Stealth when you attempt to Stomp a foe, or Resurrect an ally for 3 seconds.
  • Not sure about an ICD for this one. As it is, however, it already kind of treads on Thief’s toes; but Thief has far more tools to enter Stealth for Stomping anyway.

Should stealth (only) the ally when you are ressing and stealth yourself when stomping. Definately needs an ICD.

Fair enough. Somewhere in the realm of 20-30 seconds would be good. Given that the original Cloaking Device is 25 seconds ICD anyway, may as well go with that. The point is to have a way for Gadget Engi that typically lacks Invulns or Stealth to be able to secure a res/stomp without being bodied by cleave (To be technical, Stealth doesn’t protect from Cleave, but it’s a lot better than nothing at all). There’s a reason why even Gadget builds still run 1 kit or Elixir S in any PvP aspect of the game. This would go a long way towards helping.

MonMalthias.4763:

snip for length blah blah stab armor power shoes etc

stab armor + prot injection as they are allow me to solo roam wvw and do really well without a stunbreak. a 4 point investment to replace a utility isnt all that uncommon nor gamebreaking.

frankly i dont see the purpose in moving those traits around cuz they already serve a purpose and fulfill expectations as they are.

is it really broken to stack up damage reduction while cc’d? frankly i dont think so, its unique among all the classes because literally every other build/class needs to stunbreak and it adds interesting diversity in that enemies shouldnt really want to cc me to do damage, and they need to figure that out while fighting me. i just dont see the point in removing/nerfing that diversity on a whim.

heres my take on the adepts:

energized armor? weak/filler, but a dps option in a tanky line.

explosive descent? try xx40x in dry top, youll love the power shoes / explosive descent / heal reset combo. outside of dry top theres not much reason to take a fall damage trait ever…

cloaking device? just a bit trolly. when i see it used… well theyre still immobilized right there so it doesnt help. it just comes as a surprise the first time it happens.

protective shield? icd too long and all around worse than stab armor, though the use cases are slightly different.

metal plating? fine.

stabilized armor? fine.

go try this out in wvw, with a major generosity sigil for economy. (and you probably have a set of pink zerk trinkets already.) run around at random soloing camps and joining any group for about 5 mins. look for other solos. you can prolly survive any 2 people, but youll need to run. itll take you a day or a week to get used to. but its really fun and really good and once youre good at it youll be able to duel most classes, even necros (which are less problematic than condi thief/mesmer now). just be able to hit grenades.

i dont have videos cuz i havent tried streaming or recording anything, but ive used this build more or less since they made power shoes usable and its been mostly unchanged since then and has always been really strong at roaming. the imminent toolkit buff is gonna push it to almost op. a bugfixing pass on rocket boots is the only other thing i want for it.

and frankly, i tend to go 64400 a lot in pve (especially fractals) where there are several instances where power shoes is better than speedy kits in a 66002 build.

yes inventions is bad in pvp for the most part. i cant abuse mobility to kite multiple players because they just go back to the point. i cant fight on point against more than 1 person, just like any other person. i really need to have a stunbreak, which means i cant soft counter cc with inventions+alchemy. i need some form of vigor, because pvp practically requires sigil of doom… so i cant take energy, which means power shoes is automatically worse than speedy kits. i have almost 0 buffs to share, so its really quite selfish (only turret cleanse and 2 blasts to share). everything about pvp makes 60440 a bad build.

but everything about roaming wvw makes it wonderful. plentiful hammer warriors, slow as kitten mesmers/guards/necros that you can eat alive, the ability to scare thieves into stealth/reset, a really fun match against other engi builds, rangers are (mostly) food, and fun matches against eles. and in full pink gear i can solo keep lords, so im a huge threat as long as i just keep running around and doing things and dont always hide in a zerg.

i dont say much about it on the forums and just leave the build in my sig when im not kittening banned for expressing joy in others sorrow, and let everyone else think inventions is actually bad cuz it is in pvp and its (almost) worthless in pve, but go try roaming with 60440 before you start suggesting changes that will make a really fun playstyle completely unviable for no reason.

MonMalthias.4763:

snips
What this does is turn BK into a strong melee kit that still relies on Skill Shots, as actually hitting an enemy with the rolling bomb is now important; just as it is with Grenade Kit. I envision the casting animation to be like a nice sedate round of lawn bowls, with more explosions.

Right now I feel that BK is a somewhat spammy, hard to counterplay weapon kit, because a lot of its surprise factor comes from the fact that bombs are dropped at the Engineer’s feet, with little tell as to which Bomb it is. They’re not even colour coded. At most, Fire Bomb and Smoke Bomb have different smoke effects, but Concussion bomb, arguably the strongest bomb out of the kit in a Condi build, looks almost the same as the autoattack.

Then again, this kind of Explosives focus makes it more of a trait in that trait line than Inventions; but I really do feel that BK needs to be better not only for Power builds overall, but have better counterplay; and supersede Grenade kit where it matters: Melee Range

I like this idea of changing how the player actually ‘uses’ the bomb. I know it’s nothing major, drastic, or game changing but I personally find it silly that my character has to bend over and place a bomb on the ground every time he ‘attacks’. I think it would be cool to roll the bombs towards a foe or a toss on the ground like a bowler or even maybe a toss in the air (swing the arm and the explosion happens right in front of the player, NOT a ranged grenade-like attack) that would give it more of a melee attack feel.

I think it would be interesting as an airburst style explosion attack that is a shaped charged to make a cone/arc attack. Either way, I think it would change the way BK was played which would be nice and I would like to play one of these new styles of BK as the spamming AA does get quite dry and boring. And yes I think this is more of an Explosives focus, but that doesn’t mean the trait has to be in that line, I can find traits in all the trait lines that don’t really feel it belongs there but it is.

MonMalthias.4763:

I think that with the universal failure that was Scope providing bonus precision while not moving should have been enough of a lesson to Anet to not emphasise Immobility in an action MMO.

Scope just didn’t function properly (or not at all…). Since there’s torment, which seems to work just right, I think ANet won’t have problems to differ between moving/not moving anymore.

MonMalthias.4763:

If we must get into unreadable passives […]

We don’t have to. I’m all in for more active traits, I just think adept minor is the wrong spot for it. I feel like these spots should have basic, simple and generally useful effects since you kind of have to take them. Stat boosts are boring but the most efficient way realise this. With a on/off condition I think there’s enough “active” play in there for the first minor. I like your initial idea but it looks very “major trait” to me.

Also, as long as it is just about little amount of extra stats I think it isn’t mandatory to display them to enemies while strong/deciding procs like stability should be telegraphed.
There a quite a few important traits/procs the game fails to show but ANet also has to be careful with adding new special effects once they get onto this topic. Imagine they designed all minor traits to have such special effects and that there’d be an icon and animation for every rune and sigil proc off CD. Everyone would be running around with numerous icons and you couldn’t tell their skill animations even in a 1on1.

I think it’s fine to have undisplayed passive effects as long as they don’t turn the fight around in a moment out of nowhere.

I’m trying hard to express this and I don’t think I’m doing it that well… Maybe it works better with examples:

Small effects with easy requirements to fulfill which work long term / take time -> no need for a special telegraph:

• +1% damage / boon
• +5% damage on bleeding targets
• vigor on crit
• + xx armor while these or that

Procs with intermediate to high CD which activate effects that grant a comparatively great advantage over a small timeframe OR very strong (passive effects) that are only effective under specific conditions -> are or should be more telegraphed (/have an icon when ready/active or on CD) imo:

• Auto stunbreaks/stability/skill recharges
• Strong offensive procs (Quickness on crit, Chill of Death, Perplexity/Nightmare runes)
• special skill activations a la Kit Refinement
• Stone Heart / Diamond Skin / Automated Response

(Of course the line between them isn’t always clear. )

I think having a good balance between both of these types of procs/bonuses tied to traits, gear etc. is important: Too much of the first and combat will lack interesting procs/effects and customization options, too much of the latter and there’ll be to many effects and the base skills’ functions will loose their meaning.

And now back to the point I actually wanted to make:
I think minor adept traits should mostly belong to the first category. Effects of the second one should mostly be found in major traits or at least at master/grandmaster level.
Also, minors in general should have effects that will more or less help you in any fight. They shouldn’t be something that doesn’t help you at all when you’re fighting build xy and they shouldn’t result into disadvantages (hello last refuge…). Taking a look at the traits ingame they’re mostly (not close to 100% though) distributed/designed that way.

So that’s why I’m not too fond of your initial idea being implemented as minor adept trait. It’s a CD, situational and potentially very powerful.

MonMalthias.4763:

Now, Elite Supplies is a bad trait, and people should feel bad for taking it

The second you would say something like this, you lose most credibility with reasonable players. Any time you are going to insult part of the community for using the traits they want, you alienate yourself from them in any future discussion. The fact that you would add this to any post, simply to make a personal jab at another poster for having a differing opinion.

The trait is not a bad one at all. It literally buffs all 3 of the professional oriented elites.

A variety of points in here.

This isn’t much help to the latest topic but it’s quick and topical to the Origional Posts.

>What if the Invention trait Energized Armor functioned differently. Instead of granting Power by a Percentage of your toughness it instead:

• Energized Armor : Each time you lose control of your character you will recieve a Energized Armor visual Buff stacking up to three times. On the third and Final Stack you will detonate knocking back and damaging nearby foes. (Essentially functioning as a Big ole’ Bomb detonation but from your source.)

This effect does not break stuns, or prevent their effect from happening. This effect would of course also persist in down state.

Granted this is a passive effect, giving it three Charges before activating with no internal cool down and that are visible to all players creates, not only a way for the Engineer to monopolize on this Trait, but also (and more importantly) creates counter play for opponents.

>Alternatively, might be interesting to change the Invention Trait Stabilized Armor into something a bit more interresting if not just different. Perhaps if:

• Stabilized Armor : The first time you lose control of your character you will instead be inflicted with Daze for the incapacitations duration. You will also Cure Immobilize. Internal Cool Down: 40.

I feel this is now a more unique trait (not saying that the current Stabilized Armor trait did not work well for what it is used for, I just feel this would make a reasonable trait in roaming builds as well as bunkers. Giving Engineers essentially a “Poor Mans Stun Break” as it would exchange your first Incoming Crowd Control Effect and exchange it for a Daze, letting the Engineer remain on his feet. This coupled with the Immobilize removal and relatively short Internal Cool Down would, I feel, make for dynamic survivibility as apposed to “X% less damage” not to mention being on theme! (if your wearing a reinforced helmet and get hit with a baseball bat you will still get Shell shocked even though there is no permanent damage.)

>And why I still have some time, might be interresting to completely shake up the Invention Trait Reincforced Shield. Not saying cool down reductions are not a god send, particularly when dealing with the Shields heavy cool downs. But I think we could do better. What if:

• Reinforced Shield : In addition to reducing your Shield’s Cool Downs, Your shield now deals damage and you will gain a 10% damage bonus for each Shield skill on Cool Down.

This to me, would be very interresting as it would make taking a shield open up the possibility of introducing pressure with this weapon set. Yes, reducing the Shield Cooldowns and then giving a buff while your Skills are on cool down seems like it would work against itself, but I strongly feel that this traits plays in line with the Engineers theme. As players will now have to compromise the powerful situational Utility the Shield Skills Provide with essentially blowing them both in favor for a 20% stronger burst.

Yes this maximum damage bonus of 20% seems almost out of place on a shield, as shields are usually rarely seen outside of Condition builds as well as Bunker Builds, with the odd occasion of Might Stacking or other various utility builds. But I feel 20% damage boost over any kind of added condition damage will hybridize other Engineer builds all together instead of adding more power to the already powerful condition bunker builds.

If nothing else it would make talking a shield feasible in more aggressive builds that could use the shield and pistol to do debilitate or lock down fors and once both shield skills have been used, swapping to a more potent Kit to truly utilize the temporary 20% damage bonus before your shield skills refresh and your damage bonus fades.

Anyways, back to work.

Wolf.5816:

• Energized Armor : Each time you lose control of your character you will recieve a Energized Armor visual Buff stacking up to three times. On the third and Final Stack you will detonate knocking back and damaging nearby foes. (Essentially functioning as a Big ole’ Bomb detonation but from your source.)

• Stabilized Armor : The first time you lose control of your character you will instead be inflicted with Daze for the incapacitations duration. You will also Cure Immobilize. Internal Cool Down: 40.

I don’t think I would take these because they don’t create another opportunity for me to create a build and they seem weaker than their current iteration.

Energized Armour will only function well against multiple CC, foes like Warriors or in team fights and Stabilized Armour still gives you a negative effect. Reinforced Shield sounds good though. It would be very interesting to see if the effect persisted even when using kits.

Silinsar.6298:

snip
And now back to the point I actually wanted to make:
I think minor adept traits should mostly belong to the first category. Effects of the second one should mostly be found in major traits or at least at master/grandmaster level.
Also, minors in general should have effects that will more or less help you in any fight. They shouldn’t be something that doesn’t help you at all when you’re fighting build xy and they shouldn’t result into disadvantages (hello last refuge…). Taking a look at the traits ingame they’re mostly (not close to 100% though) distributed/designed that way.

So that’s why I’m not too fond of your initial idea being implemented as minor adept trait. It’s a CD, situational and potentially very powerful.

I think there’s been a little misreading here; I was intending Stabilised Armour to still be an Adept Major trait to avoid CC locks instead of the passive CC damage mitigation as it is now.

When stacking up Stabilised Armour against Protection Injection its clear that Prot Injection has a a lot less opportunity cost; protecting against damage even when triggered against Dazes or setup skills like Pushes. Instead of that crucial 2-3 seconds of Stun or KD, Prot Injection also works beyond the Stun frames; so it’s better in builds that pack a Stunbreaker; whereas Stabilised Armour is probably better in no- or long-CD Stunbreak builds.

My aim of redesigning Stabilised Armour to be a predictive CC mitigator was intended to make even no-stunbreak builds have a chance to outplay instead of out-passive stunlocks. I’m not sure if you’ve played fighting games or not, but certain moves in games like Street Fighter and others – EX Armour moves basically allow a very short window for players to force their attack through incoming attacks without being interrupted. The same idea applies here, providing a short window where the next incoming CC is instead “Armoured through” .

Imagine seeing an incoming Earthshaker, for example; having no Dodges left, and popping Stabilised Armour. You’d still be stunned and take the Earthshaker damage, however, that Hammer Warrior cannot then chain into Backbreaker and chain CC you to death; leaving you with a window of opportunity to pop a Stunbreak and apply some counterpressure of your own. The same thing applies for Necro Fear chains or whatever other CC lock is possible.

The whole design is intended to buff very specifically, Engineers with single, long CD stunbreakers without Stability (Slick Shoes Super Speed, Utility Goggles, Elixir U, Elixir Gun Regenerating Mist); in a high CC environment; without resorting to true CC immunity.

Another reformulation without resorting to such clunkiness could be:

• Gain -33% incoming CC duration for 2 seconds for the next incoming Control effect when you use a Toolbelt skill. Stacks in intensity up to 3 times.
  • Again, it’s a predictive “stunbreak”. However, in this context the trait then specifically buffs Static Discharge builds; which is (probably) both good and bad.

coglin.1867:

snip
The second you would say something like this, you lose most credibility with reasonable players. Any time you are going to insult part of the community for using the traits they want, you alienate yourself from them in any future discussion. The fact that you would add this to any post, simply to make a personal jab at another poster for having a differing opinion.

The trait is not a bad one at all. It literally buffs all 3 of the professional oriented elites.

I find it difficult to engage when people respond only to tone. See below attachment. I also find it intellectually dishonest that you quoted me out of context (in what way other than as a straw man could you construe my argument against changing Elite Supplies as an ad hominem against Ceimash?)

It’s also disingenuous to say that it buffs “all 3 of our profession’s elites” when Elite skills by definition can only ever be taken singly.

MonMalthias.4763:

snip It also just so happens to be an OP trait in the right setup in…you guessed it, Turret builds; turning Supply Crate into an “I win” button for any duel or even 1v2; even if the stun itself is missed. It’s a terrible situation all around, but replacing it isn’t the answer.

I did say in that post; how and why it could be potentially OP.

To begin, let’s step through why, in my opinion it is a bad trait.

• It competes directly with Power Shoes in the same slot, which is one of the prime reasons one goes into Inventions – to mitigate the loss of mobility when running without Speedy Kits.

• It introduces potential balance issues by directly augmenting our strongest skill (and arguably the strongest Elite Skill across professions: Supply Crate).
  • Remember when Grenades took a 33% Power coefficient hit to “compensate” the fact that Engineers could now have Sigil effects applied to Kits?
  • How about when Grenadier was nerfed because of 100nades, then HGH?
  • Let’s look a little more recently, at Poison Grenade’s individual tick durations being reduced due to triple-stacking Poison fields.
  • Or when Incendiary Powder was nerfed – twice – when Teldo popularised the Rabid IP Engineer?
  • The point is that augmenting traits like Grenadier, like Incendiary Powder – and also with Elite Supplies – is that the mere presence of these traits puts a hard cap on the baseline capabilities of a skill. Look at untraited Grenades now after all the changes and try playing them against a human player or heck, try running without Grenadier/Steel Packed Powder in PvE dungeons in a speed clear group and see where that gets you.

The point is that augmentation poses problems from both a balance standpoint and a design standpoint.

But let’s set all that design talk aside and talk specifically, what the problems of Elite supplies entail:

• The baseline Supply crate, properly timed and landed, is already a duel – or teamfight – turner. With Elite Supplies, you get:
  • 1 extra Rifle Turret
  • 3 extra Bandages
  • That’s…pretty desultory. For a Turret build (bunker or Turret death decapper), one would rather take Autotool Installation (turret bunker) or Power Shoes (Turret Death decapper, because one needs mobility to push far point)

• The baseline Elixir X, properly used, is situationally powerful in a Power Build to get an extreme boost to one’s CC capabilities with Rampage or Tornado. Also, Big Ol’ Bomb + Tornado = fun ; although that’s getting nerfed.
  • With Elite Supplies, you get extra duration on transform that does not stack with Potent Elixirs of Alchemy. Now, in an Elixir Build that runs Elixir X, one could get CDR from Fast Acting Elixirs – in Alchemy Adept Major. But doing so means taking out 10-20 points worth of Offensive traits; so instead, Elixir Builds with Elixir X just run without Elite Supplies to instead focus on the elixirs with better uptime; i.e. the rest of the utility skills.

• The baseline Mortar is…problematic. As a controllable “Turret”, Mortar:
  • Cannot crit
  • Attacks have a Global CD (!!!)
  • Have longer flight time of projectiles than Grenades
  • Forces immobility where Grenades do not; yet the Mortar itself is supremely fragile for a 2 minute cooldown.
  • Abandoning the Mortar loses you the Stability; it is not reapplied.

• Adding 20% range and 20% CDR doesn’t even begin to address these issues. Heck, Mortar used to have a shorter range than Grenadier Grenades with all of the above caveats; which says something as to its viability.

MonMalthias.4763:

I think there’s been a little misreading here; I was intending Stabilised Armour to still be an Adept Major trait to avoid CC locks instead of the passive CC damage mitigation as it is now.

Arg, yes. I confused Energized and Stabilized Armor… I thought you’d want to implement your new stabilzed armor suggestion as minor. Awkward mistake on my part, sorry for the inconvenience.

MonMalthias.4763:

I find it difficult to engage when people respond only to tone. See below attachment. I also find it intellectually dishonest that you quoted me out of context (in what way other than as a straw man could you construe my argument against changing Elite Supplies as an ad hominem against Ceimash?)

How is it out of context? It is the subject sentence on your paragraph? Accusing someone of being “dishonest” because they do not appreciate you insulting players who chose to use a trait in their build makes no sense at all.

Not sure if you actually know what a “straw man” argument is. When someone quotes you in an instance in which you are being rude, accusatory and insulting is rather solid.

MonMalthias.4763:

Now, Elite Supplies is a bad trait, and people should feel bad for taking it, but replacing it with a passive melee DPS trait isn’t helping things either. It also just so happens to be an OP trait in the right setup in…you guessed it, Turret builds; turning Supply Crate into an “I win” button for any duel or even 1v2; even if the stun itself is missed. It’s a terrible situation all around, but replacing it isn’t the answer.

Stop attacking everyone who disagree with you. I feel some of your suggestions are horrible. I also feel some of them might be on to something. If you want to be capable to honestly discuss your suggestions, then you have to stop adding childish pyramids, implying back handed insults.

There is nothing wrong with using that trait, and it is a good trait in my opinion. It benefits the supply crate greatly. Your essay about the trait compared to the elites as a whole becomes moot. I say this, because everything you mention in your post only refers to the other 2 elites problems. The problems you mention are accurate. This is not an issue with the trait. It is an issue with skills themselves.

Do not mess with Supply Crate, do not mess with Power Shoes.

Don’t care if Cloaking Device leaves, and the condi cleanse would be very welcome. However, as mentioned it should be a master trait, only cleanse 1 condition, no icd though. We already have cd’s on tb skills.

I can agree with that. Some type of augmentation to another skill or skill set in the form of a trait that added condi cleanse would be great. As well as being defensive, thus, fitting in the theme of the line very well.