Guild Wars 2

Once upon a time there was a humble trait called Kit Refinement. It came from a poor family of Adept traits, but overcame its lowly origins and rose to become a favourite choice for multi-kit engineers. Often these hard working patrons would put aside an extra 10pts in the Tools trait line just so they could hire Kit Refinement and its other Adept cousin, Speedy Kits, for their builds.

Then one day, instead of treating Engineers as merely an afterthought in their lofty schemes, the lords of the land, the ANet, turned the full might of their attention to the much maligned Engineers. “We shall help Engineers achieve their true place in the land of Tyria.” they said.

So the mighty ANet started to listen to the tales in the marketplace about Engineers, they tried sparring with a few Engineers, and even donned Engineer’s armour and tried out some of the Engineers tools in their mighty arenas. “Yes.” they said. “We finally see that some things are indeed not right with the Engineer. We will fix this.” And they started to make changes to the powers granted to Engineers.

But the prejudices of the mighty ran too deep for the fate of the lowly Kit Refinement. “What is Kit Refinement doing in so many builds?” the ANet asked. “Why is it that Engineers find it so useful? How are they getting such benefit from a mere Adept trait?” And so the fate of Kit Refinement was sealed.

The first warning Kit Refinement had of the change in its fate was when it received orders to slow down, to stop being so helpful all the time. But the orders were garbled and although Kit Refinement had to curtail its assistance to its more interesting but less powerful Engineer patrons, it was still able to do its work for the most powerful engineers.

The mighty Anet heard how their s instructions had been garbled, and how Kit Refinement was still helping the most powerful engineers, and they decided that was enough. “A lowly Adept trait should never be allowed such power! Return Kit Refinement to its lowly Adept status, and make sure it says there!”

Now Kit Refinement wanders the back alleys of Tyria, hoping for a visit from a kindly Engineer; hoping against hope that some curious Engineer will try it out in a build, at least for a little while, so that it can get a brief taste, a brief reminder, of the glory it once knew.

.
As far as builds go, Kit Refinement is dead. There are now plenty of better traits to take than Kit Refinement – given the state of Engineer traits, that isn’t saying much.

Is it sad that I hear Queen’s old song whenever I read these items in a patch? And another one bites dust.

The intelligence of the developers are far too excel for us to comprehend, the complexity of their minds wield far too much prowess. In the dawn of their enlightened brains, they have decided to set aside the countless builds that center around Kit Refinement to cut a new path. A path so bright that Engineers immediately turn away from and stray once more into the wilderness.

History repeats indefinitely, however, in the Developers’ endless wisdom, they tenaciously carrying on. In their determined heads, they shout!

“I shall be innovative! I will be victorious! Even if there are no Engineers left in Guild Wars 2, even if all those idiotic players who fail to follow our brilliant designs! We shall prevail! Perhaps not as a class, perhaps useless in all situations, triumph will be there at the end!”

Thus, in respond to this invigorating call, there lie players’ teary eyes. So astonishing a speech! No developers alive can call out with such courage and have the audacity to split a path into the endless oblivion. The voices of the players grow louder by the second, and they are here as one, united in strength!

“STOP IT ALREADY!”

best thing about the patch is that ive saved my laurels to not waste them on my previously main. If i continue playing at all.

At least it sounds like they fixed givers weapons.

sigh. Well; speedy kits in dungeons it is, screw my team, they didn’t need that 1 condition clense and small amount of healing KR gave me.

It is so sad that they removed double Super Elixir. That was one of our best support options, and it is straight up gone. Not nerfed, the ability to plop a second SE within a skillset cycle is GONE.

Compared to ele D/D cleansing wave (Water 5):
We can improve this.
Obtain a second cleansing wave: Dodging in water with evasive arcana.
Obtain a third cleansing wave: Swaping to water with the trait (And another trait to cleanse the condition)

They have THREE. We used to have two super elixirs, arguably around the same power… Now we’re down to one…

ARG. Time to go back to my ele?

I’m ditching Kit Refinement for Acidic Elixirs.

Then I’m going to drink my elixirs…

Farewell, cruel world…

Yamsandjams.3267:

I’m ditching Kit Refinement for Acidic Elixirs.

Then I’m going to drink my elixirs…

Farewell, cruel world…

200 damage throw elixir OP

waka.9826:

Yamsandjams.3267:

I’m ditching Kit Refinement for Acidic Elixirs.

Then I’m going to drink my elixirs…

Farewell, cruel world…

200 damage throw elixir OP

Does more than my pistol auto-attack.

Just sayin’.

Yamsandjams.3267:

waka.9826:

Yamsandjams.3267:

I’m ditching Kit Refinement for Acidic Elixirs.

Then I’m going to drink my elixirs…

Farewell, cruel world…

200 damage throw elixir OP

Does more than my pistol auto-attack.

Just sayin’.

y’all are aware that you can press a kit keybind (q for medkit, for example), and regardless of kit state (equipped or stowed) and receive the KR proc, right? this means that it doesn’t matter when you hit the kit keybind, so every 20 seconds you can just activate whatever kit for the KR proc. it works like on swap sigils.

so what’s all the kittening about with omg I have to micromanage when I hit my key kitten about?

at worst, you have to count to 20 (or 10 twice if you cannot see your toes), and then get any proc you want.

nakoda.4213:

y’all are aware that you can press a kit keybind (q for medkit, for example), and regardless of kit state (equipped or stowed) and receive the KR proc, right? this means that it doesn’t matter when you hit the kit keybind, so every 20 seconds you can just activate whatever kit for the KR proc. it works like on swap sigils.

so what’s all the kittening about with omg I have to micromanage when I hit my key kitten about?

at worst, you have to count to 20 (or 10 twice if you cannot see your toes), and then get any proc you want.

…
Have you even played with multikit?
If you’re not switching them as needs demand (need being what the weapon skills from the kit are, not necessarily the KR) then you’re not doing it right.
And now, if you do that, you’ll fire KRs on kits you don’t particularly want the effect from while disabling the effect from another kit you want the effect from.

Also, no visual indicator on the recharge of something with such an impact on how you play is absurd.

nakoda.4213:

y’all are aware that you can press a kit keybind (q for medkit, for example), and regardless of kit state (equipped or stowed) and receive the KR proc, right? this means that it doesn’t matter when you hit the kit keybind, so every 20 seconds you can just activate whatever kit for the KR proc. it works like on swap sigils.

so what’s all the kittening about with omg I have to micromanage when I hit my key kitten about?

at worst, you have to count to 20 (or 10 twice if you cannot see your toes), and then get any proc you want.

You are aware that people are forced to use kits at certain times so will have no choice but to proc the 20 sec GCD, e.g – if I get CC’d I often have no choice other than to use gear shield in the toolkit or simpy sit there and take 100blades, BS/steal/mug, etc. (which on a sidenote will give me the hugely useful super speed… whilst I am stuck there CC’d…)

Before the GCD idiocy this was less of an issue all it would do is proc the toolkit KR effect and put that on cooldown, the other kits KR woudl remain unaffected, now it puts all the KR effects on cooldown for 20 secs, wonderful…

Nor that is worth people holding off using kits in normal play (which goes totally against the alleged design of the engineer anyway) in order to use the largely pretty weak KR effects.

Kit refinement is now like a clunkier, weaker, less useful (the vast majority of the time) version of Elemental Attunement, but then that description pretty much sums up ele vs engy fullstop at the moment.

When you want to pull someone to start a fight you will now pop a useless Super Speed and put all your KR effects on CD.
When you want to switch to medkit to use stimulant for swiftness when running you will now pop a useless Magnetic Aura and put all your KR effects on CD.
When you switch to the Ranged kit Grenades you will drop a tiny useless mine at your feet and put all your KR effects on CD.

Seems pretty lame to me.

gimmethegepgun.1284:

nakoda.4213:

y’all are aware that you can press a kit keybind (q for medkit, for example), and regardless of kit state (equipped or stowed) and receive the KR proc, right? this means that it doesn’t matter when you hit the kit keybind, so every 20 seconds you can just activate whatever kit for the KR proc. it works like on swap sigils.

so what’s all the kittening about with omg I have to micromanage when I hit my key kitten about?

at worst, you have to count to 20 (or 10 twice if you cannot see your toes), and then get any proc you want.

…
Have you even played with multikit?
If you’re not switching them as needs demand (need being what the weapon skills from the kit are, not necessarily the KR) then you’re not doing it right.
And now, if you do that, you’ll fire KRs on kits you don’t particularly want the effect from while disabling the effect from another kit you want the effect from.

Also, no visual indicator on the recharge of something with such an impact on how you play is absurd.

Also, I play a support Engineer based around kit CC and heals/cleanses. The change from Super Elixer proc to Glue Trail really screws up my build.

I can handle counting to 20 when I have something worthwhile to fire off. Since I no longer do, I’ve just turned to grenade spec like the good little cookie-cutter Engineer that ANET wants me to be.

Think that’s where I’m headed, too. That, or back to the old pistol/elixir/condition build.

My alternative kit builds were fun for a while, but the performance hit is just too high. Cookie cutter engineer, here I come.

CriSPeH.8512:

When you want to pull someone to start a fight you will now pop a useless Super Speed and put all your KR effects on CD.
When you want to switch to medkit to use stimulant for swiftness when running you will now pop a useless Magnetic Aura and put all your KR effects on CD.
When you switch to the Ranged kit Grenades you will drop a tiny useless mine at your feet and put all your KR effects on CD.

Seems pretty lame to me.

This put it plain and simple and you can’t really argue with it. Thanks.

Yeah i never play my engineer anymore anyway so this wont make much difference to me i guess…

what?

let’s say:

q = medkit; e = ft

press q (equipped) – proc magnet aura
wait 20; press q (stowed) – prod magnet aura

or

press q (equipped) – magnet aura
press q (stowed) – no proc, use weapon
wait 20, press e (equipped) – flame aura.

or

press q (equipped) – magnet aura
wait 20, press e (equipped) – flame aura.

so, what’s the problem?

these are the only ways to proc KR, everything else are just iterations and variations of the same.

KR PROCS WHICHEVER KIT YOU PRESS, REGARDLESS OF WHICH IS EQUIPPED.

You can still swap as often as you want, just press whichever kit you want a KR proc from every 20 seconds, meanwhile swap combos continue as always…

the kittens go mew mew!

^ Nobody is saying you can’t switch kits anymore.
Everyone understands how to switch kits.

The problem is the Kit Refinement Trait which used to be a very important skill in alot of Engineer builds is now just a lame secondary effect that you cannot rely on, it is basically RNG. That is what Anet did, nobody is going to count to 20 to try and keep track of their KR proc, Anet basically made it so when you are switching kits every 20 seconds something will happen.

PPL are kitten because this is a complete redesign of a very popular trait, they didnt try and balance it all they just completely changed it to the point that its useless,
it is useless because it is worse than speedy kits
it is worse than speedy kits because most the KR effects are dmg mitigation which good use of swiftness in combat can grant you anyways and on half the CD.

The trait simply needed to be moved up the tree and an individual specific CD given to each ability, even if they still changed the effects this still should of been the way to go.
What Anet did was lazy

No, actually, you can’t swap as often as you want if you want KR to proc when you want it to.
Maybe, just maybe, you don’t want KR proccing on recharge, you want it when it would actually be advantageous?
But then, if it’s cooldown is up, ANY kit swap will put everything on cooldown, so you either are forced to give up the usefulness of KR in order to get the skills you need, or wait on swapping, denying yourself the use of the kit skills, in order to get the KR you need when you need it.

For instance, Tool Kit, Magnet, then switch to Bomb for the KR. But wait! Because you used Tool Kit, you now have a worthless Super Speed against a CC’d enemy, and you can’t use the extra CC of Bomb Kit’s KR because of that worthless Super Speed.

And to make matters worse, the cooldown is hidden when it’s a skill you activate on command.

nakoda.4213:

what?

let’s say:

q = medkit; e = ft

press q (equipped) – proc magnet aura
wait 20; press q (stowed) – prod magnet aura

or

press q (equipped) – magnet aura
press q (stowed) – no proc, use weapon
wait 20, press e (equipped) – flame aura.

or

press q (equipped) – magnet aura
wait 20, press e (equipped) – flame aura.

so, what’s the problem?

these are the only ways to proc KR, everything else are just iterations and variations of the same.

KR PROCS WHICHEVER KIT YOU PRESS, REGARDLESS OF WHICH IS EQUIPPED.

You can still swap as often as you want, just press whichever kit you want a KR proc from every 20 seconds, meanwhile swap combos continue as always…

the kittens go mew mew!

Your inability to comprehend is impressive.

People don’t need the KR effects on the dot every 20 secs, a lot of the time proccing the effect will be of no use at that point, however they still need to use the kits which will then proc the useless effect and then put all KR on cooldown for 20 secs, preventing them from using it when they actually need it (e.g – the bomb effect to pull people away when they are tryign to stomp, or having magnetic aura when you actually need to reflect projectiles).

The 20 GCD is simply terrible design, that works against the no-cooldown design of kits.

The “The TANKCAT build. Prybar some faces!” thread has been locked….. has a line drawn through it….

That pretty much says it all.

So wait, when I use a utility skill, it has no cooldown?
so like, when I use rocket boots and then a big 30 starts counting down, that’s NOT a cooldown?
is that what you are saying?

I am a-mew-sed by this thread.

Agreed with the people above, I enjoyed running a kit build, procing Kit Refinement at the right time was an important part of this. You just can’t do this now. You can’t keep your Elixir gun for when you need to immobilise, as swapping to your grenade kit will put it on cooldown. You can’t use your magnet bomb when you need it because changing kit to get speed on the way in will put it on cooldown.

GLOBAL COOLDOWN sucks for intelligent play. please change back to individual cooldowns, preferably a bit shorter than 20secs. I don’t care if it moves up the tree to 20 points. I do care that all that has happened is that playing an Engineer has been dumbed down.

For all those people that say you can just count to 20sec. Yes you can. But it means you have to use your proc at 20sec, rather than when you need it. Like when you need to run away.

nakoda.4213:

what?

let’s say:

q = medkit; e = ft

press q (equipped) – proc magnet aura
wait 20; press q (stowed) – prod magnet aura

or

press q (equipped) – magnet aura
press q (stowed) – no proc, use weapon
wait 20, press e (equipped) – flame aura.

or

press q (equipped) – magnet aura
wait 20, press e (equipped) – flame aura.

so, what’s the problem?

these are the only ways to proc KR, everything else are just iterations and variations of the same.

KR PROCS WHICHEVER KIT YOU PRESS, REGARDLESS OF WHICH IS EQUIPPED.

You can still swap as often as you want, just press whichever kit you want a KR proc from every 20 seconds, meanwhile swap combos continue as always…

the kittens go mew mew!

Because obviously all the KR effects are best used immediatly using them while the cd is up. Right? Nope, there is no way an effect like Magnetic Aura is something you want to hold unto untill you are actually being attacked from range. Or Bomb Kit needs to be used asap, even if there is no one nearby. Or all the other effects.

…

Seriously? You want to hold on to these effects when you need them. But when a situation calls for you to switch a kit, but not to use KR. Well tough kitten for you, its on a cd now anyway! Especially with this stuff proccing even when not in combat!
Want to prep up with a Stimulant for the fury boost before you start wailing on that guy? Enjoy your useless Aura and a 20sec KR cooldown right before the fight starts.

How can you not understand this? Kitten goes mew mew indeed…

kr should be used every 20 seconds, period, regardless of what kits you have equipped when, because it doesn’t matter, you can proc whatever kr you want by pressing the kit keybind. be smart in how you use them.

kr is not an “oh kitten” button, it is a refinement to your existing kit.

so I use ft for flame aura, then switch to medkit, to ft, to medkit, to ft, etc, and now it’s second 18, what do I do?!?!?!?! im in ft kit but I wants my flame aura proc!

just press your ft keybind (stow and proc) and again to equip again. why the kitten would you have to CARE about any other kit?

every 20 seconds you press any kit keybind for the kr proc for that kit regardless of what you have equipped.

managing cool downs, you said it. you cannot do this with new kit refinement unless you stop avoid using certain skills and bringing more than 1 kit lol

KR would be in perma cd and you wouldn’t get the effects you need when you need them. thats what everyone is trying to tell you and you keep saying to keybind something and press it everytime the 20s cd are up lol

smh.. i give up tho!

a couple people have talked about it like it’s no big deal to count to 20 in your head to manage cooldowns, but the reality is that it’s just too fricking difficult. There needs to be some indication, like with all other cooldowns, as to how long you’ve got left til you can use it. I need to see it ticking down.There’s no way that in a fast-paced dungeon where you’re talking to group members and doing your job in the group you can also count to 20 w/o losing your place. I need a timer on screen like they have for every other cooldown. And as EVERYONE keeps saying: it is absolutely ridiculous to think that I’m not going to switch to the med kit for a heal just because I don’t want to waste the KR cuz in 10 seconds I think I’m gonna want to use the glue trail or whatever. That’s foolish. I wish i could perma opt out of some of the kr triggers and save them for kits where the trigger doesnt suck (which is none of them now, btw).

with the previews global cd, i used to use the old med kit, if i heard the little boom, the cd was up!

and the problem is that this trait gets on the way of everything, even if you only have 1 kit ( med kit ) the KR will still be wasted if you switch for swiftness or need a quick fury or condition remover

nakoda.4213:

any time anything is on cooldown you suffer.

Exactly.
Thus, when something has to be put on cooldown, when you aren’t even remotely interested in the effect you got out of doing so, you are being punished.

For instance, you are immobilized while trying to flee from a group of enemies. You switch to Tool Kit and use Gear Shield so you don’t die. You get Super Speed, which does nothing as you are immobilized, and then you want to use the glue trail from Elixir Gun while you try to get away. But no, you can’t do that, because KR is on cooldown because of a worthless effect you didn’t even want, because it so happened to be off cooldown at that moment rather than on cooldown.
In this case, you would’ve had a better chance at survival if the ability was ON cooldown when you switched to Tool Kit, since then you could get glue trail in the near future instead of having to wait 20 seconds.

Very, very sad about the changes to Kit Refinement. I have been playing Engineer since beta and have tried about a dozen builds, some I got from others and some I made myself. Most of my favourites of those relied on Kit Refinement to one degree or another. It’s pretty heartbreaking to watch ANet suck every last little drop of versatility and fun out of one of the most (if not the most) under-represented profession in the game.

I tried 100 ‘Nades (which is suspect is mostly what all these moronic changes are about) and yeah… I admit, pulling someone to you and blowing their face off 100% life to downed in the span of a second or two was… well, insane. Not that it’s any more insane than a certain other perma-invis class that I could name but won’t for fear of being flamed.

But the answer to this problem wasn’t to completely re-tool every single ability that procs and then further beat us over the head and face with a new CD. You guys do recall that we DID have cooldowns on KR procs; that seemed fair and balanced to me. Perhaps the KR effects for Elixir Gun and Grenade Kit were a bit too powerful (though tbh I think the only reason those were used and never any others was because the other KR effects were basically useless). Now we get a hidden CD that turns any KR build into a not-so-fun guessing game.

Engineers already suffer from more RNG on our abilities than any other class. Now we have still more unknowns added into the mix, reducing utility and playability and making KR builds more of a chore than anything, in my humble opinion.

I plan to start my quest for a build that 1) I actually enjoy that 2) doesn’t use KR or 3) our worse-than-useless turrets. Wish me luck.

when kr is on CD it doesn’t matter what kits you swap to or what skills you use, it stays on cd.

you can use it for flame aura (20), then, if you get cc’d 10 seconds later, switch to toolkit (10) and use gearshield (6); switch back to ft and lay some fire down (3); switch back to toolkit for a prybar and .. (1) BING ..

now .. you think, KR is up soon, what the eff is happening, and at this point you press WHATEVER BUTTON YOU NEED TO to get WHATEVER PROC YOU WANT and then switch back. or dont and use the kit you just chose.

or whatever.

seriously. your “even if i switch to medkit for swiftness ruins the timer” argument is funky because a) if KR is on cd, you can get swiftness without penalty and b) if it KR proc is up, don’t waste it, prioritize and use something else, then take swiftness.

are you worried about running to a point at the start of a match?

But really, why would you be saving a KR proc for longer than 20 seconds? What are you doing that takes longer than 20 seconds in one kit? The whole point of that trait is to cycle your kits or to add a benefit to one kit.

also, since speedy kits also effects ALL KITS, they work together if you are worried about swiftness. and if you are only putting 10 into tools anyway, whats the eff?

another edit: did someone above actually just say “because it’s too hard”? … go play another class if you can’t count to twenty. hint: if you can count even to 10 you can count to anything using the decimal system.

nakoda.4213:

But really, why would you be saving a KR proc for longer than 20 seconds?

“Why would you be saving Airblast instead of using it immediately?”
“Why would you be saving Gear Shield instead of using it immediately?”
“Why would you be saving your stun break instead of using it immediately?”
“Why would you wait 2 seconds to fire your Blunderbuss against someone using Shield Stance instead of firing it immediately?”

The answer for all of these similar questions (and yours) is the same: because if it is timed right, it is better.

Fire Shield is worthless if you’re not being attacked (and is generally worth less than all the rest anyway), Magnetic Aura is worthless if you aren’t being attacked by projectiles, Mine, Glue Trail, and Magnetic Bomb are worthless if there’s nothing near you, Super Speed is worthless if you’re immobilized or don’t need to move anywhere. And yet all of these kits have something of value to give despite their KR being useless at that time (even Bomb, if you have a blast or leap finisher you could get stealth from Smoke Bomb, or you could be using Elixir-Infused Bombs to heal people). So in all these situations, in order to use something of value in a kit, you have to waste KR and get nothing out of it, shutting you out from being able to use KR from ANY kit when you actually want it, which could even be within 5 seconds of whatever action you just took.

thanks, tips, for telling me that managing cool downs is important. I am not sure if i mentioned that yet in any of my posts… mew.

but the problem with KR doesn’t matter, since it is always on a 20 second cooldown. whenever it is up, you can use whatever proc you want.

You may have noticed that they changed the procs not to be “oh kitten buttons” … this is so that you aren’t so dependent upon them. Look at the new abilities. THINK about how you might use them.

you are all spending your time thinking of situations that they WONT be useful.

try thinking about when they will, and then learn how to control your situation in game to use them to your best benefit.

No, you don’t want to drop a gearshield every time it is up. KR is not a reactionary trait. it is not “oh snap, being attacked, panic button” like gearshield. the new KR is meant to be used in harmony with your kit swapping cycles.

reread the new KR skills and think about the situations you WOULD need them. make sure that that ability FITS into your build. if it doesn’t, boo hoo, move on.

you are too stuck on negatives and impossibilities. this is a game, play it.

I appreciate some of the effects where too powerful and understand why they changed them (not sure why a grenade kit would drop a mine though?).

That said: they should have just moved the trait up to Master or Grandmaster level instead of giving it this ridiculous GCD, since one of the main issues with this traitline that is supposed to increase our versatility most is that it doesn’t actually offer any decent traits for it beyond Adept.

20 seconds globally is rather horrendous considering it pops even out of combat (so if you want to quickly drink that Stimulant for some speed: 20 second CD on all effects …) and the effects really aren’t that good now.
For instance the magnetic aura said medkit now gives, while a lot better than what it used to do, seems to last for an amazing 2 seconds and dropping a single mine or getting superspeed aren’t exactly game-changers either.

Most of all though it goes directly against one of the basic designs behind the engineer and this trait specifically: Switching kits is supposed to be the source of all that versatility we get, because you know: we give up utility slots for them and a secondary weapon.
This trait now stops you from actively switching kits and makes using multiple kits a liability in many situations.

tl;dr: Move this trait up to Master or even Grandmaster level, remove the Global cooldown and/or reduce the cooldown to 10 seconds, that way it actually does what it’s supposed to do.

How is Magnetic Aura not reactionary? How is Fire Shield not reactionary? Both of these are literally completely worthless if they’re not used while something is attacking you.

And you still don’t seem to understand that sometimes, maybe, you DON’T WANT TO USE KR RIGHT NOW. I don’t want to use it when I grab Tool Kit to Magnet someone, I want to use it a second later or so when I swap to Bomb Kit or Elixir Gun for extra CC against the guy I just pulled. I don’t want to use it when I’m immobilized while running from a zerg and use Gear Shield, I want it after Gear Shield is done so I can drop a Glue Trail or Magnetic Bomb behind me.. I don’t want the Mine when I switch to Grenade Kit basically ever, but I may imminently want pretty much any of the others.
All of these situations are kittened by the global cooldown and the fact that I can’t choose to NOT use KR when I switch to a kit. Those two combined make it very unlikely the ability I want will actually be usable when I want it.

Who cares about the cooldowns. We got some of our strongest abilities replaced with garbage abilities that lasts a whole 2 seconds..

Most of the effects of kit refinement are awesome (except you superspeed) but the thing people are arguing about is that no matter how good it is, if you cannot get its effect when you need it its useless. Sure you could save for it and not switch weapons, limit yourself,travel slower without speedy kits etc. But then why would you take a trait that hinders you when they are supposed to be helping you out?

Personally the refinement change doesnt bother me much, but I can see why others are upset about it.

Dear GW2 staff…here’s a person who play ONLY 1 Pg: Engineer, sicne Ago 2012 i saw a lot of (u call changes i call:) nerfing to engi’s good weapons (see grenades, ok….) so..NOW this is the moment of EG HEal?????
I start thinking on GW2 staff there’s a valuable part of the staff WHO HATE ENGI!!!
No other explanations keep on my mind…

So please…retake US Kit refinimenete super elixir and eliminate cooldown…PLEASE!!
I spent a lot of time and gold around ENGI….so i’m playing on fractal 30+ and need EG super elixir 2×.......

Tnx 4 ur consideration
good Work

:(

i think the new effects are not that bad at all, if they REMOVE the internal cooldown entirely, or lower it to 5 sek at least.

but for my playstyle, i have to see if the new KR has some uses… maybe.

nakoda.4213:

But really, why would you be saving a KR proc for longer than 20 seconds?

The answer is simple. Kit Refinement is used as immediate utility. When you need it, you can use it. Well, back then anyway.

However, in this patch, the game has effectively changed. This rework gets rid of skills and replaces them with new ones. This as if, 1-3 of your skills on your toolbar are now completely different. And pressing one of them, keeps you from using the other two. Much like a trebuchet.

So why WOULD you save your switch for a KR proc now? Same reason. When you need something, you can do it. Need an escape? Elixir Gun/Acid Bomb. Need to keep opponent in place? Bomb Kit swap and just start rolling the keyboard! 523411111. The bomb’s interrupt and the sticky bomb’s immobilize will hold them in place long enough to get all your other bombs in (granted they don’t have some way to save themselves. And you have other options. Reflect/Flame Shield/Super Speed/Mine) They’re all useful in some form. Whether they’re more or less useful than their previous counterparts is another discussion, but there’s a problem.

These new skills are now all relying on each other. i.e. If you used Reflect, you can’t use Mine for 20s. If you used Flame Shield, you can’t use Magnet Bomb for 20s. Multi-kit Engineers now face a new inner conflict: In a situation of life and death, do I swap into a kit that would grant the instant utility that I need or the kit with the skill I need? Whichever kit I swap to will send ALL of my KR utility onto cooldown. I can’t rely any of those other utilities for another 20 seconds.

So let’s ask this again: Why would I hold out for 20s to use a skill? Because swapping kits would put multiple skills that I want to actively and purposely use at some point in combat on CD. These new skills have become far more specific to their situational usefulness AND have very short durations (Med Kit reflecting projectiles for 2s, FT only being useful when you’re being attacked for 3s, Tool Kit’s super speed lasting only 2s) without the proper timing of kit switching, what is the point? If the skills on KR weren’t important enough for me to want to hold out for them, they are effectively pointless! If they grant me nothing that I care for, why would I take this trait in the first place? It would be mere luck of the draw that an enemy engineer using a net shot gets reflected because I happened to want to open Med Kit to Drop Stimulant. Am I picking up traits for luck?

If you went single kit, or didn’t use KR or care about its abilities, you’re very minimally affected by this and don’t really care. And it’s evident by the posters who say that their engineer is perfectly fine because they don’t use KR and can still have fun and be important. But now, many people multi-kit/KR users feel as if their investment in learning the benefits of these utilities and when to properly apply them have been completely cut from under them. The utility we had in the past were extremely useful. Apparently SO useful, that ArenaNet saw fit to change how the whole system worked. For what, 100nades? No way. There’s no way it can be only that. I refuse to that grenade spammers are responsible for the undermining of my Bomb/Tool/Elixir setup. Is dropping more puddles while in super speed as a gravity bomb pulls everyone in a broken combination? Who knows? No one will know because we aren’t able to find that out. Now that it can’t be broken, I guess it won’t need to be fixed.

One thing is certain though: A core setup is now completely gone. The utility that answered many problems for me has been replaced with ones that respond to completely different set of problems and runs on a system that takes requires far more maintenance. But when new engineers pop up, they’ll learn the new system and will get along with it as if nothing’s happened.

In short: Utilities are used for a reason. If you have no reason to use them, or don’t care for what they do, then you wouldn’t even take them in the first place. The new KR spells not only require much more attention to what’s going on but can give a “ kitten If-You-Do-Or-Don’t” feeling to multikit player decisions in the heat of battle.

However, for all my aggravation, I am out to push this new system as far as it can go. Because maybe if I break it again, it might just change. I am now pretty skilled at applying 25 stacks of vulnerability via EG’s glue puddles + Sitting Duck + Steel-Packed Powder and just kiting around with Elixir Gun, Bomb Kit, and Net Turret. It’s not running so well against multiple targets because the turret gets focused down, but if I’ll manage… or just give up on the trait altogether.

• Kit Refinement trait: Reworked kit skills to balance their effectiveness. All kit skills are now on a static global recharge (20 seconds).
  - this is the important part. what this says is that when you pick the KR trait, you are equipping yourself with a hidden utility that you can activate once every 20 seconds. Every 20 seconds, you are eligible to receive a buff on equipping a kit. It doesn’t matter what you have equipped, all that matters is what button you push. If you are trying to save a proc for a particular situation, then you are not getting the most out of KR.
  eg: you want to save medkit proc for that panic moment when you need extra defenses. – okay, that’s cool, but in the meantime while you don’t need it, you could be using it on something else more pertinent like glue trail or magnet bomb.
  - my point is that intending to save the proc is all well and good, and sometimes you are going to get shafted because it is on cd.
  - Think of it this way. the new kit refinement is a unique kind of RNG, where the R = you.

The changes are as follows:

• Med Kit: Equipping this kit applies Magnetic Aura.
  http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Magnetic_Aura
  - says dura 5 seconds; BUT, that is the basic tooltip.
  http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Kit_Refinement
  - dura 2 seconds. this KR proc is not an “oh kitten” emergency button, it is pressure relief when jumping in to medkit in order to drop bandages while retreating.

• Bomb Kit: Equipping this kit creates a Magnetic Bomb that pulls enemies toward the center after a brief delay.
  - the combo possibilities with BoB have already been discussed in other threads.

• Elixir Gun: Equipping this kit activates a Glue Trail that follows the player for a short time. Enemies that step in the glue are briefly immobilized.
  - immobilized, not crippled. more cc? yes please.

• Tool Kit: Equipping this kit grants the user Super Speed for a brief duration.
  - handy for chasing kittens and you are just out of magnet’s reach at the start of the chase. only one example of a useful situation for this proc.

• Flamethrower: Equipping this kit grants the player Flame Aura for a time.
  - every flamethrower user wants more fire. at least i do. and who doesn’t want an extra might stack?

• Grenade Kit: Equipping this kit drops a mine at the player’s location that deals damage and removes a boon.
  - the “removes a boon” part is pretty swell, especially if you’ve just magnet pulled someone on top of you and you swap to nade bomb them with your toolbelt barrage.

• Skills that activate this trait can now activate in midair.
  - a bug fix, now you cannot exploit the jump to avoid proc bug.

edit: if you are in a quandary about swapping kits because you need that proc for something specific, then you ought not have painted yourself in to a corner. with instant kit swapping there is no excuse not to be able to think through three to five kit swaps within a 20 second window of opportunity.

The only thing you get the most out of by spamming on recharge is damage.
Everything with non-damage effects has a time and a place to be used for best effectiveness.
Seeing as every single one of the KR effects has non-damage components to it, even the kitteniest one, the mine, none of them are worthy of categorically being used on recharge.
Meaning, in a general sense, you are getting far less out of KR by using it on recharge rather than picking the right time and place. But, since the GCD greatly reduces the control you have over the situation, doing so is borderline impossible with multiple kits without sacrificing your ability to use kit skills at the right time and place.

Oh, and yeah, Magnet→Mine is a decent combination. Too bad using Magnet will almost certainly fire off a useless Super Speed instead.

Also, why shouldn’t you be able to avoid a proc by jumping? That gives you actual control over the ability.

Greetings,

I feel as though it’s worth replying now that the style has changed from obscene to more of a proper discussion.

If I were to make a claim, it would be this: You are absolutely not wrong Nakoda with some of your assertions, but you are essentially forgetting something important: One of the main reasons people are very unhappy with the changes – and feel as though their game is being gutted – is because the playstyle advocated is that of a strict regimen. If you read back on your own posts Nakoda, you get the impression that everything can be pre-planned and that’s absolutely true if you’re an elementalist. The most popular (and near impervious when played right) playstyle revolves around running a strict rotation and pre-planning.

However, when it comes to the engineer, one of the greatest freedoms of ours was to freely mix and match kits, skills and utilities to gain a competitive edge through unpredictability. “One step ahead” if you will. I ceased to play with Kit Refinement in my repertoire, because the refinement triggers unnecessarily when I want to swap to a kit for one thing. Say, if I need a blind now and swap to my grenade kit, I lose out on the KR – which is actually counter-intuitive. Unless of course I combine it with other kits and actively seek to chain them.

Now, this is just my two cents, but the way I see it is that this change is not bad on paper. In practise you are more likely to opt out of it altogether unless you specifically want to abuse the combinations somehow. Ultimately, it also makes engineers more predictable and it is already ridiculously easy for certain professions to dismantle us, irregardless of build. The engineer is not a heavy hitter like a mesmer or a warrior (just to throw some examples); the playstyle is very much reactionary. My assertion is that shoehorning this kind of forced effects to reactinary gameplay is not good. It’s nothing short of a change where mesmer clones now trigger random effects instead of controlled ones. Hyperbole I’m sure, but still serves as a useful example.

There is little evidence that our role is stabilizing any time soon, and these changes keep reflecting just that. I would be really curious to see how the developers play engineer. I would also like to see them not rage after getting shattered to death in 1.5 seconds by the triple-mesmer assault team in pvp, but that’s just me.

nakoda.4213:

eg: you want to save medkit proc for that panic moment when you need extra defenses. – okay, that’s cool, but in the meantime while you don’t need it, you could be using it on something else more pertinent like glue trail or magnet bomb.
- my point is that intending to save the proc is all well and good, and sometimes you are going to get shafted because it is on cd.

edit: if you are in a quandary about swapping kits because you need that proc for something specific, then you ought not have painted yourself in to a corner. with instant kit swapping there is no excuse not to be able to think through three to five kit swaps within a 20 second window of opportunity.

Playing Engineer was all about making the right choices at the right moments. But the difference is the kind of choices we had. You didn’t have to save one skill because you needed to use another. You just let all your combat tricks refresh and you could use them when you needed them. We weren’t IN a corner until just now when we became forced to make that decision.

But you’re right.

What you just said right there is how it now has to be played. Elixir Gun’s new skill is also pretty good and completely changes how I open fights, however, I lose a removal and heal. EG/FT build users lose TWO removals. And now these builds need to compensate. Med Kit users now have to circumvent its bonus because the CD on Drop Stimulant and the internal CD are the same. If you want anything other than that 2s reflect, you better swap to that before getting your Fury and Swiftness back.

We’re all playing around these new restrictions that, quite honestly, seem unnecessary. Reworking the skills is one thing, adding a cooldown is another. Strapping on both just makes me wish that they did one or the other because now the entire framework is different and it’s hard to tell which one is the true cause of the problem. Especially when it’s something that affects the most core of issues (Condition Removal, How to Open a Fight, Skill Timing). For people who used the KR skills of the past, to their maximum benefit, it’s like the class itself has changed. I can personally say that I utilize those passive benefits more than I did my toolbelt skills. The KR trait was more core to my build than one of the core features of the engineer.

And that’s why this is such an issue. This one trait affects so many builds in COMPLETELY different ways. It’s not even funny. One person used it for burst damage, another used it for extra heal. It would have been better and much more manageable if they had made separate traits out of all of these skills rather than a single trait that would ended up so core in utility. They can do away with all those unused traits in the Tool line if they did. I can hear their usual reasoning in my head already “Ah, we didn’t want to force all the ____ kit users into using _ trait and have more open trait ideas.” While good practice in theory, I haven’t heard of many Engineers using anything that weren’t already available in the Adept Tools section. Speedy Kits, Lightning, and Kit Refine was all I ever liked in there… Well, there’s also Scope but I hear that doesn’t work. If I had the ability to only have the new Kit Refine on Elixir Gun without having to worry about Bomb, Med, or anything other kit ruining my setup, it would be a lot more manageable.

But that would require a complete change of the Tools line in itself, and I don’t think I want to mess with that. Next thing you know, we find every single person who uses Armor Mods complaining just as much as I am.

gimmethegepgun.1284:

Also, why shouldn’t you be able to avoid a proc by jumping? That gives you actual control over the ability.

I agree with everything else you said, but the “Jumping to avoid KR trigger” legitimately sounded like a bug when I first heard of it and I knew it would be removed sooner or later. An equally valid question would be: “Why would jumping cause a trait to not work?” I don’t find a problem with having a way to control such a thing, but it really shouldn’t be so nonsensical and unintuitive.

Looking at the patch notes the changes actually looked interesting – obviously for many kit builds the global cooldown is awful but it also means the trait is at about the same power level with 1-4 kits so it has advantages.

Of course, magnetic aura or fire aura for 2 seconds is plain bad.

The super speed buff lasts 2 seconds and definitely does NOT give double speed as it claims. Also the buff is named “Haste” so I assume someone managed to catch it in the quickness nerf. In practice, this means you get 2 seconds of swiftness.

I was looking forward to finding a build I like for engineer

I am just very disappointed they apparently only looked at 1 trait instead of the traitline as a whole; the Tools traitline blows.

KR needed work (some effects, like an extra Grenade barrage, where too powerful), but why nerf it this hard instead of tweaking it slightly and moving it up the line?
They could have made it so people had to make meaningful choices like: do I want to go 30 in Explosives or 30 in Tools? Looking at balance as a whole and opening up more varied builds.
Instead they started out ok by tweaking some effects and then completely nullified that effort by making most effects so short they’re almost pointless, adding a ridiculous global cooldown and having them activate out of combat.

Another missed opportunity.