Guild Wars 2

swapping kits is about more than just the KR old proc. We have 5 kits and a host of abilities therein which form our combos.

ya, it might suck if you relied on a T1 trait to make or break a niche build premised on the unintended (that is, i am not calling people cheaters, quite the opposite) exploitation of a broken game mechanic.

but…

that is spilt milk not worth crying over. the new KR provides different effects and function in a different way than it used to.

our ability to swap kits and chain our abilities remains unhindered. the loss of 3 over-relied upon effects is not a class ending ordeal.

nakoda.4213:

our ability to swap kits and chain our abilities remains unhindered.

This isn’t true though. In regards to the 20s GCD on kit refinement, it completely hinders our ability to chain abilities together. The GCD applies an extra layer of micro management that must be done in a multi-kit build.

I think that’s probably why they made the KR effects more “minimal”, so they would just seem like extra bonus effects you get every so often. But good builds work like well-oiled machines. They rely on their abilities to tackle specific situations. Things are not there just to “be there”, they have a purpose. Having this sort of lack of control of when things are able to take effect can easily sabotage whatever efforts you’re undertaking.

I don’t think the current abilities are of a nature where the absence of one will completely destroy the player, but clutch moments are fairly common. Trying to predict when you’ll need precise KR effects is virtually impossible, so a multi-kit build can potentially cripple themselves (not the condition) when they really needed that specific KR ability to help them deal with the situation.

The nature of the abilities is another topic, but the GCD is the main problem with the updates made to KR.

no..

KR has nothing to do with the “ability” to swap kits. it refines what happens when you swap, once every 20 seconds.

The effect of the old KR on the FT/EG builds was quite significant – it’s another condition removal on self every 10 second (one of the weaknesses of the build, since Fumigate doesn’t work on yourself and you’ve already got two slots taken up by kits) as well as the ability to keep Super Elixir running permanently. It was probably too powerful, yes… but while FT/EG builds are certainly still viable, it is nonetheless a big hit to a build and playstyle that was already fighting for validity against the 800 pound grenadier. However, maybe this is a good thing – removing the crutch might be a wakeup call to properly even out the builds.

In terms of the new KR – the issue is that most of the abilities are conditional, but the GCD means that if you’re multikitting, you have little ability to actually get the right ability for the situation. If KR was something you got for free, then the argument that anything you do get from it is an added bonus would apply, but the fact is that even if you’re otherwise committed to 10 points in Tools and you’re not using Static Discharge, turrets, or gadgets to make the other traits worth using then having Swiftness on tap for Speedy Kits is quite a bit better then a trait that might give you a useful effect at the right time, but is more likely to waste itself on something pointless. Even if you’re running a single kit there’s a good chance that the effect will be wasted while Swiftness is nearly always of some benefit… especially if you’re adding Invigorating Speed or something similar on top.

Now, if you’re not committed to having 10 points in Tools… the whole traitline, apart from anything you’ve already got 30 in, is your oyster.

The bottom line is that while it would be exaggerating to say it is useless, the fact remains that it’s competing with the rest of the engineer trait line… and apart from Magnetic Bomb, it simply doesn’t compete.

nakoda.4213:

1) All you have to do is press the keybind that equips or stows the kit you want to have the effect from.
ie: medkit = q; after 20 seconds, and you want magnetic aura, just hit q. EVEN IF YOU ARE ALREADY IN THAT KIT. “Stowing” the kit will also proc KR.

2)The idea that KR and Speedy Kits don’t synergize well, does not bother me. Technically, since they are both first tier traits, they are not necessarily meant to work in unison with each other, but presumably with higher tier traits in the same line.
-> (Yes, I am aware that there are many instances of T1 traits working together, such as pistol/rifle range and CD in the firearms tree (IV and VI), but I honestly do not think Speedy Kits and KR are supposed to be used together.)

3)There is no penalty for swapping kits during combat, there never has been. None of the kit swapping combos that we have used (except the 100nade barrage, double cleanse, and Super Elixir Double proc) have been broken. EVERYTHING else still works.

1) I’ve told you this before. This is false. The tooltip on KR says “Equipping a kit creates an attack or a spell” and is working as intended. I am in game testing it right now. Stowing a kit does not give you Kit Refinement. You would have to stow it and then equip it again, which is a second wasted.

2) That view could have been well accounted for by moving it up the tree. However, I do not think that’s a very good way to look at how traits work. Traits aren’t there to discourage use of others. They’re meant to synergize, both within the tree and without regardless of tiers. They were well synergistic before. Both traits gave users reasons to use multiple kits. So why not take both? When the GCD didn’t trigger on Bomb and Med Kits, I took them specifically to get around wasting KR. Now that it’s applicable on all of them, I don’t want to use either at all until I’m in combat. But if that really is what they meant to do, well, I guess that’s fine. I just won’t use it.

3) The Double/Triple Cleanses from FT and SE’s double proc was in no way “OP” or broken. ANet knows this. I have a feeling that the issue stems from their desire to buff Super Elixir’s healing. KR’s heal was balanced, but for anyone not using KR, the effectiveness of Super Elixir was half its max potential. If they wanted it to be effective, they’d want to double it. However, doubling it would give KR users 4x the original healing power. This is likely what they wanted to stay away from. So instead, Super Elixir’s healing effectiveness is buffed for users who don’t use KR. KR users still have the same amount of heal but lose 1 instant-speed Condition Remover in exchange for a immobilizer. I’m not as angry about that change since the immobilizer has both offensive and defensive uses. But that GCD makes me unable to use it the way I want.

As for Flamethrower… I guess they wanted to push their fiery juggernaut concept further so they went with the flame shield that gives might.

Also, I find that you’re saying that “swapping” kits has not been nerfed. No, it hasn’t. They have, however, given us a reason to not switch. It is a “ kitten Decision”, one that forces you to give up one of your tools for the use of another. That is a nerf to the way an Engineer can perform in combat.

Stir arguing in circles I see.

I actually really like the new KR effects and I think tht if they had been changed before release than there would never have been any complaints about KR being OP and there would never have been any reason to implement a 20 sec GCD.

But thats not what happened Anet made a 10 point trait that was so good it would define entire builds. When it was deemed to powerful it was completely wiped and changed.

Nakoda’s Point
The new KR effects are now just an added effect, that you will receive in the natural course of switching kits, sometimes it will be at a helpful time and sometimes it will not.
This is very true and is they way that this trait needs to be viewed from now on.

Everyone else’s Point
It was a real kitten move to remove something and replace it with something entirely different 7 months into the game. Especially when it was a very popular trait that fit into alot of very popular builds. (It would be like if mug was changed to not do damage but grant swiftness)
I think alot of ppl feel like a simply changing Dmg/CDs or moving it up the trait tree would have been enough to balance the trait without completely changing it
This is also true but it is in the past so there is no use in crying or arguing about it any more.

The OP is correct, the old way of using Kit Refinement is dead.
@Nakoda gratz on moving on faster than most other ppl, you don’t see the changes to KR as negatively as others and thats all well and good but I am suprised at how much effort you have but in to trolling everyones complaints by repeating your one factual statement “the new KR just refines switching kits, it does not define switching kits”
I realize you don’t consider it trolling but it is, otherwise you would have made your point once.

@Everyone else
Convincing Nakoda or anyone else that the new KR sucks compared to the old one will not convince a Dev to change it back.
Time to let the fun that was Kit Refinement go and keep trying to come up with a few good Turret builds.

CriSPeH.8512:

This is also true but it is in the past so there is no use in crying or arguing about it any more.

Making it plainly obvious that we feel that the GCD is terrible and makes the trait worthless for multi-kit builds may end up getting them to remove it, meaning there IS a point in doing so.

CriSPeH.8512:

Convincing Nakoda or anyone else that the new KR sucks compared to the old one will not convince a Dev to change it back.

Unless, of course, we convince a dev that the new KR sucks and isn’t worth using any more.

nakoda.4213:

the loss of 3 over-relied upon effects is not a class ending ordeal.

I agree. I’ve since swapped to a 10/30/0/30/0 setup with my FT/EG build and I’ve done just fine. Did a few runs of CoE over the weekend with no outstanding issues. Perhaps there was an over-reliance of Super Elixir on my part and an inability to think outside the box.

Hell, with Energy Conversion Matrix + Incendiary Powder, Flame Jet actually does relatively good DPS. Not Grenade Kit levels, but it’s certainly satisfactory given everything else the kit provides (i.e., not dying when I get breathed on like a Rampager-spec Grenadier).

My problem though, is this:

nakoda.4213:

our ability to swap kits and chain our abilities remains unhindered.

You’re right. Swapping kits and chaining our abilities remains unhindered. But what’s the point in a projectile reflect when swapping to the Med Kit when I have no idea when it’s actually going to proc? I love Magnetic Shield. I think it’s amazing. So I use the shield all the time in groups.

But how amazing would it be if it only worked half the time? If it didn’t work every time you used it? If there was an invisible cooldown on its projectile reflect? I may be able to overcharge it and proc a Blast finisher with my Healing Turret for an AoE heal as I always have, but to an extent I’m uncomfortable using it.

And that’s really how I feel right now. I like the new proc effects on the whole (except for the Elixir Gun really) but I never know when I’m actually going to get them. It’s hard to time it because they’re way too situational.

When would you ever NOT want a Light field on the ground with Super Elixir? Never! Proc that every time it comes up! And I did. And I loved it. And I built a rotation around it swapping from the Flamethrower to the Elixir Gun to the Med Kit and back to the Flamethrower. Perma Light field. Perma Fury. What was not there to like? It made the Flamethrower and the Elixir Gun actually good. Even Fractal 40s good.

And like, Magnetic Bomb and the Magnetic Aura are cool and all … but they’re way more situational than a Light field is. If I don’t have a condition on me, Super Elixir still gave me Retaliation or passive regeneration. Yet Magnetic Aura … if I’m not getting shot at, what’s the point?

What’s the point of “utility” if you can’t use it properly?

Kit Refinement didn’t define my build. I just happily integrated it. It was no more build defining than Incendiary Powder is now. Any more than Deadly Mixture is. Any more than Juggernaut is. And these are 10, 20, 30 point traits certainly and should be judged on their own merits. But I had to distribute my 70 points some way, some how, and Kit Refinement made a lot of sense. I grew to rely on it, maybe.

Perhaps I was wrong to “rely” on it. I’m still not fully convinced on this point. A lot of people loved the FT/EG build that others and myself designed and made them enjoy playing the Engineer. I still enjoy playing my Engineer, but it still bothers me that the clear solution in my mind was just to buff the other effects and move it up the tree. Make it super good as a 30-point trait that pushes people to go into Tools instead of relying always on Juggernaut, Grenadier, Elixir-Infused Bombs, or HGH in the design of their builds.

Instead we got the worst possible outcome. They deleted it and made something else. I’ve revised my build and dealt with the change. And as I wrote above, I don’t notice much difference.

Still, just a part of me feels like the spirit of the FT/EG build is dead with this change. It just isn’t the same. I felt dirty making those edits. The build just looks hollow now, honestly.

Sorry for the wall of text.

So, the people in this thread honestly don’t see double SE as OP? It’s simply being blind and/or biased to think otherwise. I’m rather new to the Engi profession, about a month since I hit 80, but I instantly latched onto the old Kit Refinement. It was simply a must have, since stacking SE was ridiculously powerful. I couldn’t care less about the effects of any of the other kits. I simply wanted that second SE, as it pretty much gave me and my allies 10secs of invulnerability.

I’m beginning to think this profession is a magnet to people in Theatre.

Gisei.5749:

So, the people in this thread honestly don’t see double SE as OP? It’s simply being blind and/or biased to think otherwise. I’m rather new to the Engi profession, about a month since I hit 80, but I instantly latched onto the old Kit Refinement. It was simply a must have, since stacking SE was ridiculously powerful. I couldn’t care less about the effects of any of the other kits. I simply wanted that second SE, as it pretty much gave me and my allies 10secs of invulnerability.

I’m beginning to think this profession is a magnet to people in Theatre.

For your next assignment, actually read the posts and tally the number of people who complain that double elixir removal was the problem vs people who admit that it was indeed OP.

The problem isn’t that they changed the spells. I was actually looking forward to having more interesting effects than +damage and +healing. The problem is that they changed it badly, especially in moving from local to global cooldowns.

I don’t think most ppl are claiming anything from the old Kit Refinement was OP or not OP.
Most ppl are saying that if something was unbalanced about the Trait it could have received a great many changes to put it in balance.
(Like a longer CD on SE for example)
Instead it was completely wiped and changed.

Everyone can remain optimistic and argue in hopes that Anet will take notice and change things.
But going by Anet’s prior history I think they are more likely to just see Nakoda’s arguements and single point and take them as confirmation that they made a good change.

for what it is worth, and also following ANet’s track record with patches and changes, I think what you can expect to see are future adjustments that bring other skills around to work with the new KR … all in good time.

i cannot remember which interview i read it in, but i distinctly recall ANet saying that they do their best not to just alter numbers or change text, but rather they actually change mechanics in order to create balance and progress along their game’s vision.

so i sincerely think that the new KR (as unimpressive as it is compared to the old one) is an example of this progressive development.

can someone please tell me how to detonate the mine that the granade kit drops

thanks

bomber.1540:

can someone please tell me how to detonate the mine that the granade kit drops

thanks

You can’t

15 char

Nilix.2170:

3) The Double/Triple Cleanses from FT and SE’s double proc was in no way “OP” or broken. ANet knows this. I have a feeling that the issue stems from their desire to buff Super Elixir’s healing. KR’s heal was balanced, but for anyone not using KR, the effectiveness of Super Elixir was half its max potential. If they wanted it to be effective, they’d want to double it. However, doubling it would give KR users 4x the original healing power. This is likely what they wanted to stay away from. So instead, Super Elixir’s healing effectiveness is buffed for users who don’t use KR. KR users still have the same amount of heal but lose 1 instant-speed Condition Remover in exchange for a immobilizer. I’m not as angry about that change since the immobilizer has both offensive and defensive uses. But that GCD makes me unable to use it the way I want.

They didn’t buff it in the end, though, despite what the patch notes say. I had also made a thread regarding that in the bugs forum, but devs haven’t replied yet.

I wonder if they will ever apply elixir traits to the elixir skills in the elixir gun. With the cleaning formula it would work well for condition removals, since it has 3 skills labeled as elixir (healing mist, super elixir and acid bomb). Sure, it is a master trait like deadly mixture, but if one wanted the EG for support purposes, DM isn’t that important. It isn’t like we use EG for damage purposes anyway.

Truth be told, i never understood why they labeled them as elixirs and then never made the traits work with it. I mean, they could have simply removed the label, then.

Manuhell.2759:

It isn’t like we use EG for damage purposes anyway.

You really should integrate Acid Bomb into your rotation if you have the Elixir Gun on your bar.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Manuhell.2759:

It isn’t like we use EG for damage purposes anyway.

You really should integrate Acid Bomb into your rotation if you have the Elixir Gun on your bar.

I use it, obviously. But i’ve got EG for support, not for doing damage. If i wanted to do more damage, i would have gotten other kits.

First they “fixed” super elixir. Then they “fixed” Kit Refinement with a global cooldown. Now they’ve “fixed” Kit Refinement permanently. Have fun with your kitten A-net. Meow.

To the people who don’t see the issue here:

1. ANet giving us a new 10pt trait in a patch isn’t a bad thing. (Although it does beg the question: Why go to all that effort just to produce a crappy 10pt trait when there are other areas of the class in greater need of work?)
2. The way ANet did it removed trait support for multi-kit builds/play from the Eng trait tree – that’s the real issue here.

The ability to run multiple kits and actively swap between them is a defining feature of the Eng class.

Unlike most classes which are restricted to a choice of two active weapons for swapping, Engs can swap between a weapon and up to four active kits, and do so with only 1s CD (as opposed to the 10s CD for weapon swap classes). Eles have a similar swap ability between their Attunements, however their Attunement options are permanently fixed and the 15s CD on swapping out of an Attunement prevents them from swapping as frequently as Engs can. Engs are the multi-kit swapping class.

There was an Eng class trait that explicitly rewarded investment in Eng multi-kit builds/play. (Traits are meant to provide explicit support for class specific build/play styles. That’s right, isn’t it?) There was only one of these traits, the old KR, but it was there and it was highly valued by many Eng players. (There are two other traits that reward kit/weapon swapping, but these don’t reward multi-kit builds/play over single kit builds/play as they don’t scale with kit choice.)

Sadly, when confronted with imbalances in the old KR trait, instead of fixing the balance issues, ANet removed multi-kit support (i.e. scaling with multiple kit use) from the trait and replaced it with a minor 10pt trait that gets less reliable the more kits you use. The result: ANet effectively eliminated multi-kit support from the Eng’s trait tree.

TLDR:
Multi-kit swapping is a defining feature of the Eng class and very popular with many Eng players. With the KR change, ANet effectively eliminated support for this from the Eng’s trait tree. – That’s the problem.

Zenguy.6421:

TLDR:
Multi-kit swapping is a defining feature of the Eng class and very popular with many Eng players. With the KR change, ANet effectively eliminated support for this from the Eng’s trait tree. – That’s the problem.

and this is precisely what I disagree with.

kit swapping is much more than just proccing effects between swaps. the reason you are swapping kits is, and should be, imho, to access the abilities within the kits. an effect on swap is butter or icing, however you want to look at it.

the old KR was abused to the point that the kits were being marginalized by the effects of the 10 point KR trait. How many people had EG just for double SE, and used the other abilities as the butter and icing instead of the kit itself? How many threads included posts like “FT is worthless but i take it for the KR proc” ? Nade users get a sort of bye because the grenade kit is still their main utility, at least.

The trait was broken, and it marginalized what you claim to be the bread of our class, using multiple kits. KR was abused to gain procs and stay within one main kit.

TLDR;
kit swapping remains unchanged, unhindered, and unaffected by the KR change.
The new KR encourages the use of abilities within the kits rather than frantically waiting to get that next proc.

(edit: example: look at all the threads about the FT now that people are actually using the kitten thing and/or admitting it, rather than having just taken it for a single cleanse and/or remaining silent to avoid the onslaught of our forum “experts”.)

nakoda.4213:

Zenguy.6421:

TLDR:
Multi-kit swapping is a defining feature of the Eng class and very popular with many Eng players. With the KR change, ANet effectively eliminated support for this from the Eng’s trait tree. – That’s the problem.

and this is precisely what I disagree with.

kit swapping is much more than just proccing effects between swaps. the reason you are swapping kits is, and should be, imho, to access the abilities within the kits. an effect on swap is butter or icing, however you want to look at it.

the old KR was abused to the point that the kits were being marginalized by the effects of the 10 point KR trait. How many people had EG just for double SE, and used the other abilities as the butter and icing instead of the kit itself? Nade users get a sort of bye because the grenade kit is still their main utility. How many threads included posts like “FT is worthless but i take it for the KR proc” ?

The trait was broken, and it marginalized what you claim to be the bread of our class, using multiple kits. KR was abused to gain procs and stay within one main kit.

TLDR;
kit swapping remains unchanged, unhindered, and unaffected by the KR change.
The new KR encourages the use of abilities within the kits rather than frantically waiting to get that next proc.

(edit: example: look at all the threads about the FT now that people are actually using the kitten thing and admitting it, rather than having just taken it for a single cleanse)

Tell me how you expect to use on demand proc effects such as the reflect on medkit KR when you are swapping kit’s up the kitten during a fight. 9/10 times your KR proc is going to be wasted unless you purposely stay out of a kit for 20 seconds which is not how a engineer is supposed to be played.

well, first of all, i would clarify that they are not “on demand” effects, but rather they are bound to a twenty second timer.

secondly, let’s say that, for whatever reason, at second 15, i swapped in to medkit because i really needed a heal, and at second 20, i still needed a heal and i wanted to reflect some projectiles because that ranger is a kitten.

—> I would just double tap my medkit key on the 0.6 second delay. it literally takes less than a second to stow and equip a kit. boom, magnetic aura.

now, one of the other concerns is that if i swap kits i might trigger the wrong effect while swapping around.

ya, that is a concern. so I play smarter. if I know the timer is about to pop, I either don’t risk the kit swap or stow it (like above) and use my weapon for a moment (chances are, its abilities are available).

it is up to me as the player to be conscious of what rotations I am following through my kits given whatever kind of scenario I am fighting in. adaptively, I can change rotations on the fly, like if I normally would ft3 -> medkit 5 -> net shot (toolbelt) -> ft 2 (pop) as a combo, but the timer is going to arrive sometime between medkit 5 and ft 2, then I might switch to my rifle after net shot (toolbelt) and blunderbuss then rifle 2 before picking which kr proc is most effective.

Since KR is going to get used on whatever kit swap I do after the timer is up no matter what, it is beneficial to work the KR timer into my rotations so that I can play around it. likewise, it is also sensible to now consider KR to be a proc I want to use as fast as it is up as often as it is up instead of hording it.

edit: if the new KR would proc on stow as well as equip (ie function like Enhanced Performance with medkit), would that solve much of the angst? (yes, i am aware that i was previously mistaken about this. i must have been tripping kittens in my excitement and zeal on patch day)

nakoda.4213:

well, first of all, i would clarify that they are not “on demand” effects, but rather they are bound to a twenty second timer.

secondly, let’s say that, for whatever reason, at second 15, i swapped in to medkit because i really needed a heal, and at second 20, i still needed a heal and i wanted to reflect some projectiles because that ranger is a kitten.

—> I would just double tap my medkit key on the 0.6 second delay. it literally takes less than a second to stow and equip a kit. boom, magnetic aura.

now, one of the other concerns is that if i swap kits i might trigger the wrong effect while swapping around.

ya, that is a concern. so I play smarter. if I know the timer is about to pop, I either don’t risk the kit swap or stow it (like above) and use my weapon for a moment (chances are, its abilities are available).

it is up to me as the player to be conscious of what rotations I am following through my kits given whatever kind of scenario I am fighting in. adaptively, I can change rotations on the fly, like if I normally would ft3 -> medkit 5 -> net shot (toolbelt) -> ft 2 (pop) as a combo, but the timer is going to arrive sometime between medkit 5 and ft 2, then I might switch to my rifle after net shot (toolbelt) and blunderbuss then rifle 2 before picking which kr proc is most effective.

Since KR is going to get used on whatever kit swap I do after the timer is up no matter what, it is beneficial to work the KR timer into my rotations so that I can play around it. likewise, it is also sensible to now consider KR to be a proc I want to use as fast as it is up as often as it is up instead of hording it.

edit: if the new KR would proc on stow as well as equip (ie function like Enhanced Performance with medkit), would that solve much of the angst? (yes, i am aware that i was previously mistaken about this. i must have been tripping kittens in my excitement and zeal on patch day)

Might as well make everyones utility skills share a global cool down too right, so we have to play more consciously and for it to be more “skill based”.

waka.9826:

Might as well make everyones utility skills share a global cool down too right, so we have to play more consciously and for it to be more “skill based”.

how so? KR is one trait in one branch of our skill tree. if you dont use it at all, there are zero penalties for anything, and if you use it, there are still no penalties, just some (more or less) QoL buffs that refine what happens when you do.

it isn’t a pretty picture (and I still have yet to be be all ra ra murica about it, because it is lackluster), but the new KR fixes a lot of problems.

what I don’t get in this whole discussion is this:

in what multi-kit build is the kit refinement trait actually worth more than it’s alternative traits now?
Either by not spending 10 points in Tools, or by taking another trait in Tools.
I don’t believe the new Kit refinement is ever the better talent to take. Those 10 points always seem better spent on something else.
It can be gimmicky fun, but it never seems the better talent to take.

So how is this talent considered not broken than? By being a funny proc you can’t rely on?
I’m missing it’s use in a serious build.
In a one kit build it can be usefull, but in a multi-kit build, which is the core of this discussion after all…
What multi-kit build has 10 points to spend on this if it wants to be competetive to other builds?

The 10 points in kit refinement sin’t worth it anymore. Like Kimbald said, maybe in a gimmick build with only one kit, so you can predict the proc.

Even then, the proc aren’t strong enought to make it worth building around it.

Kardiamond.6952:

Even then, the proc aren’t strong enought to make it worth building around it.

I think that was their intention, but even compared to other ten point traits like Incendiary Powder, Cloaking Device, Fast-Acting Elixirs, Infused Precision, and Invigorating Speed … Kit Refinement seems way to difficult to synchronize at the moment.

@Phineas

I didn’t mean we should build around it, we shouldn’t.
(Tho we can take static discharge as an example of a 10 points trait with build centred around it.)

I meant, for it to be “viable” (not really) we would have to center au build around it, like only take one kit and ect.