Guild Wars 2

Hello.

My guild group killed the Vale Guardian last night. This was the build I was running. I would link a video but I’m not sure Brazil has one up yet.

There’s nothing particularly controversial or outstanding about it. I basically merged a lot of the ideas that made the Sinister build great while modifying it slightly to address a few particular weaknesses of the baseline triple-kit build.

A lot may be wondering: why Scrapper? Truthfully we began the raid running Tools, as Streamlined Kits and Adrenal Implant are significant mobility and survivability gains. But it’s important to identify as well that there’s very few damage gains in Tools that you’ll find valuable (or even reliable) in raids.

Excessive Energy is really your biggest boost, but you are very rarely going to be sitting at full endurance. On paper Tools still seems to be the better option with Mechanized Deployment giving you reduced cooldowns on Grenade Barrage and Incendiary Ammo, but this is kind of a wash. Just based on what engineers primarily do in the fight you will have a hard time throwing Grenade Barrage off cooldown regardless, especially during the second and third phases of the fight where the Vale Guardian and the lightning orb will often spawn well outside 1200 range of each other.

Mass Momentum does give a flat, baseline power increase (about 100 power, to be exact) and gives a little extra might to ourselves since you spend so much time evading attacks in the raid, so while Scrapper is primarily a defensive tree, there’s some benefits to rolling with it.

Now that you can no longer blind seekers with Flash Shell, being able to outsustain their damage is critical. This is where Recovery Matrix really helps, as the Healing Turret (if picked up) always matches up with the 15 second rotation of lightning orbs. So again, while Tools might seem like better damage on paper, in actuality I have to recline on the old tried and true: dead DPS is no DPS, and downed DPS is reduced DPS.

The other primary question some might be asking is: why Slick Shoes? Since BWE3 when we finally got our hands on Scrapper, Slick Shoes has seemed like a natural fit. Slick Shoes and its super speed applicator seems like an obvious choice for PvP when taking Rapid Regeneration. But even in PvE, Slick Shoes has significant utility in breaking bars better than most skills out there.

The truth of the matter is that, while the Vale Guardian is a DPS race, there are significant CC checks that reveal themselves in the boss’s third phase. If you are not breaking its bar within seconds, you will not keep your raid group out of the “hot lava” that spawns on rotation over 66% of the room’s area. Super Speed also naturally benefits your ability to stay mobile in this fight, as our primary responsibility for the majority of the fight is reaching every lightning orb that spawns.

I also cannot stress enough how huge the function gyro is as a resurrection option. There are many times where the raid literally would have wiped if we did not have gyros at the ready to res people that got teleported and downed away from the raid. When a video becomes available you’ll see what I mean.

The other final major reason why I took Slick Shoes is because Napalm is a very thin strip AoE, and even the best tank can’t keep the Vale Guardian in it 100% of the time. I think that final slot is really up to personal judgment; determine whether your group needs more CC or more DPS and go from there. For example, if we had a Chronomancer in the group I probably wouldn’t have bothered with SS … but I similarly would have hesitated on taking the FT again. I feel like there’s other utilities that could shine in raids (maybe Elixir U?) but that’s something that’ll be determined over time.

Not trying to reinvent the wheel here or anything, but I just wanted to offer an alternate perspective to the triple-kit meta that has seemed to re-emerge from DnT and NA kills.

I hope that naysayers to the Scrapper spend a bit more time in raids before they reach a final judgment, as I really do think Ireneo and the rest of the balance team did an amazing job giving us utility beyond damage. Having a lot of fun in raids so far, as well!

All the best.

Not to be a jerk, but if they did a great job, where’s your hammer and gyros? Is it also a great job if 2 of the minor traits are only of any use in one or two game modes? Also where are all the skills to take advantage of Impact Savant? It’s just as worthless in this build as it is in every other. According to your build you’re making use of only one minor trait, the others do almost nothing. Is that an “amazing job”?

It seems more like sheer luck that scrapper is any good for raids, since you’re mostly relying on base engineer for skills and weapons. The only thing that scrapper has brough that you’re using is a couple of traits out of a possible 6. It seems a more accurate statement would be,
“a few of the scrapper traits actually do something useful in raids at least, even though they do almost nothing the rest of the time”.

I can’t understand how you can suggest that a few traits being kind of useful some of the time in raids, but being mostly worthless in every other game mode is an amazing job. If they did an amazing job, shouldn’t we be able to see the fruits of this utility in all areas of the game?

If a chef made a meal for you that was the most awful thing you’ve ever tasted, served on a dirty plate with a whole bunch of useless cutlery as well as the fork you actually needed, would you look at the meal and say, “hey this meal has my complete 5-a-day, this chef did an amazing job”?

No.

Looking forward to the video, tho.

Phineas Poe.3018:

I also cannot stress enough how huge the function gyro is as a resurrection option. There are many times where the raid literally would have wiped if we did not have gyros at the ready to res people that got teleported and downed away from the raid. When a video becomes available you’ll see what I mean.

Just wanted to pull out this section for all the people that said engis had “no elite mechanic in PvE”, lol. Funny how that changes when we get difficult content.

However, one thing with your build…you have Perfectly Weighted even though you’re not using a hammer. Is that a mistake? I don’t see any benefit to stability in the Vale fight.

When raids became the main component of PvE, I MAY agree with you, Dahkeus.
From my point of view, the utility of the F-Gyro outside raids is still close to 0, so for the inmense majority of players is still close to 0. And within raids it still depends on the strategy and skill (or lack of skill) of the squad.

Furthermore, the Rez function largely gets its value from the L2P moment where we are. Right now the (actual encarnation) F-Gyro is on the most brilliant spot it will ever be: it can only go down now, because as the days pass, people will be more and more able to do the new content without dying.

@Phineas: Thank you a ton for all the info you are offering. I think your post is incredibly valuable, specially for those that, like me, still can’t see clearly the good aspects of our new Elite Spec.

Dahkeus.8243:

However, one thing with your build…you have Perfectly Weighted even though you’re not using a hammer. Is that a mistake? I don’t see any benefit to stability in the Vale fight.

To trigger Mass Momentum might stacks.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Dahkeus.8243:

However, one thing with your build…you have Perfectly Weighted even though you’re not using a hammer. Is that a mistake? I don’t see any benefit to stability in the Vale fight.

To trigger Mass Momentum might stacks.

Ahh, good point. Totally missed that.

wolfyrik.2017:

Not to be a jerk, but if they did a great job, where’s your hammer and gyros? Is it also a great job if 2 of the minor traits are only of any use in one or two game modes? Also where are all the skills to take advantage of Impact Savant? It’s just as worthless in this build as it is in every other. According to your build you’re making use of only one minor trait, the others do almost nothing. Is that an “amazing job”?

Because you asked where my hammer is, I guess it’s worth mentioning that the hammer has been pivotal in crushing all open world Heart of Thorns content with my guild, including our Chak Gerent kills. You’re correct to point out that I didn’t use it here. I don’t see why that’s a problem or a flaw of the profession specialization.

CC is a huge aspect of most open world bosses to the point where it’s oftentimes better to take the lesser damage weapon in favor of more easily breaking bars. I mentioned that my raid group didn’t have a chronomancer, but we did have three revenants with staff as their second weapon set. My Slick Shoes was more insurance than necessity, but I can imagine in some raid comps (and fights) it’s much more important to have engineers quickly CC targets. To this end, combining Thunderclap and Rocket Charge is just as good as anything at breaking bars, and only is that much stronger when used in conjunction with Slick Shoes.

I do agree that Impact Savant without the hammer is pretty pointless, but it seems silly to pull one minor trait out of the tree and draw conclusions about my entire build. Every single major trait I chose has utility, and the key point of my post is to point out that you can literally swap Tools with Scrapper at no noticeable damage loss while gaining the added utility of the function gyro. That Scrapper offers situational usefulness at no real cost is precisely the point.

Dahkeus.8243:

Phineas Poe.3018:

I also cannot stress enough how huge the function gyro is as a resurrection option. There are many times where the raid literally would have wiped if we did not have gyros at the ready to res people that got teleported and downed away from the raid. When a video becomes available you’ll see what I mean.

Just wanted to pull out this section for all the people that said engis had “no elite mechanic in PvE”, lol. Funny how that changes when we get difficult content.

People were criticising the elite mechanic even when it has clear uses in PvP and WvW, the fact that it has some uses does not change the fact that the elite mechanic is thin.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Hello.

My guild group killed the Vale Guardian last night. This was the build I was running. I would link a video but I’m not sure Brazil has one up yet.

Thanks Phineas I was watching Brazil’s stream but on a phone so it wasn’t clear. Why use perfectly weighted when you don’t run hammer? Just for the stab?

morrolan.9608:

Phineas Poe.3018:

Hello.

My guild group killed the Vale Guardian last night. This was the build I was running. I would link a video but I’m not sure Brazil has one up yet.

Thanks Phineas I was watching Brazil’s stream but on a phone so it wasn’t clear. Why use perfectly weighted when you don’t run hammer? Just for the stab?

Stability for Mass Momentum. I was spending a lot of time beyond 600 distance of the boss (and by extension facets and PS stacks) because of lightning orbs, so I was almost never at 25 might. Mass Momentum doesn’t do much, but it is something to help that.

Do you think that Scrapper tanks could be viable in there Phineas? I know that condi engis easily have a place there, but was wondering how well a Scrapper would fare as a tank, assuming you have enough dps to hit enrage timers.

Wouldn’t mind trying it myself as a tank if it was viable, just need to find a group to run with.

Spart.6578:

Do you think that Scrapper tanks could be viable in there Phineas? I know that condi engis easily have a place there, but was wondering how well a Scrapper would fare as a tank, assuming you have enough dps to hit enrage timers.

I don’t see why not! My group has a druid tank, but I’m sure scrapper could do just as well.

Phineas Poe.3018:

That Scrapper offers situational usefulness at no real cost is precisely the point.

It’s also my point, we’re coming at it from different angles. The fact that scrappers utility is so situational is why it’s a failure. Don’t get me wrong, I like the idea of being able to res at range, it’s like a useful version of Search and Rescue and the opposite of how I play as Ranger, rezzing while the pet attacks. That should appeal to me. The problem is that it’s so situational. Scrappers mechanic does nothing most of the time, which means that its first two minors do nothing for most of the time. Then there’s the fact that the third minor is entirely useless even with hammer equipped.
Finally the utility skills that came with scrapper, the gyros are so worthless that they rarely see use, which only adds to the worthlessness of Impact Savant.

As I said, I don’t see how scrappers limited utility in raids is anything other than sheer luck. If it’s design, then it’s so myopic as to be poor design.

I playd allmost the same build but in a little tankier variant even and it worked great. In the scrapper line i went into adaptiv armor for the free extra toughness and for rapid regeneration which gives me some nice healing with superspeed and a permaregen effect cause i have permaswiftness from my group.

Gryjok

Ardid.7203:

Furthermore, the Rez function largely gets its value from the L2P moment where we are. Right now the (actual encarnation) F-Gyro is on the most brilliant spot it will ever be: it can only go down now, because as the days pass, people will be more and more able to do the new content without dying.

While this is true, I think it’s important to mention that this is only the first raid wing to be released. There will be a constant influx of new content, especially considering the second raid wing is already under development. The goal posts will continually be shifting, so there will never be this point where the majority of the player population will be able to do content without dying.

wolfyrik.2017:

As I said, I don’t see how scrappers limited utility in raids is anything other than sheer luck. If it’s design, then it’s so myopic as to be poor design.

Okay buddy.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Ardid.7203:

Furthermore, the Rez function largely gets its value from the L2P moment where we are. Right now the (actual encarnation) F-Gyro is on the most brilliant spot it will ever be: it can only go down now, because as the days pass, people will be more and more able to do the new content without dying.

While this is true, I think it’s important to mention that this is only the first raid wing to be released. There will be a constant influx of new content, especially considering the second raid wing is already under development. The goal posts will continually be shifting, so there will never be this point where the majority of the player population will be able to do content without dying.

Who kittening cares how useful an elite’s mechanic is to easy content. Are you saying you’d rather have a mechanic that saves a couple seconds when you’re clearing through content you have on farm status then a mechanic that saves the entire raid from wiping when you’re actually going against the challenging content???

I’d have a mechanic that is meaningful no matter the content, or at least one that is meaningful for most of the content.

Challenging content should be answered through skill, not through specifically designed mechanics that only work there.

Ardid.7203:

I’d have a mechanic that is meaningful no matter the content, or at least one that is meaningful for most of the content.

Challenging content should be answered through skill, not through specifically designed mechanics that only work there.

1) Benefits generally come with down sides. Not everyone can do everything all the time. That’s called balance.

2) False dichotomy.

Can this be taken somewhere else, please?

There are enough threads debating our function gyro mechanic. The purpose of this thread is to talk about the scrapper in accordance to raids, where it is meaningful, so your discussion about it being meaningful for “most of the content” is really off-topic.

It’s like you’re trying to sell the Scrapper, but it’s not very convincing. You’re not using the Hammer or any of the new skills.

So the message seems to be “Hey guys, you can technically play the Scrapper because the traitline is a valid third choice, but dont use the heal, the elite, the utility skills or the hammer.”

No, Scrapper is a wash in pve.

Congrats on your guys’ kill! Personally, I ran with tools at first as well, but because I was dodging so often I took the opportunity to swap flamethrower for rocket boots and use Kinetic Battery instead. Thought you make an excellent point about the Scrapper and I agree that you lose relatively little in exchange for some nicely added utility.

Many times throughout my attempts I found myself wishing I was running scrapper for the added survivability, but even more so when multiple of my allies went down (especially at range) and I need to pick them up fast.

Also, I’m not sure if it was a build editor mistake, but I noticed that you where running Shaped charge over short fuse. Any reasoning behind that choice?

Phineas Poe.3018:

Can this be taken somewhere else, please?

There are enough threads debating our function gyro mechanic. The purpose of this thread is to talk about the scrapper in accordance to raids, where it is meaningful, so your discussion about it being meaningful for “most of the content” is really off-topic.

Yea, I’ll take the blame for that. I should have known what pointing out the usefulness of F-Gyro would do. But at least it got the thread bumps! So sad that most threads with good builds tend to just sink away since people tend to prefer to post on more controversial stuff…

Anyways, the build seems pretty solid. I’ll be passing it along to guildies for consideration on our next raid.

Since Tools wasn’t really that huge for DPS (10% modifier only at full endurance), I don’t see much issue with Scrapper taking its place, even though the only dps boost is just the ability to keep up more might stacks when you get away from your might stacking sources.

However, if your druid runs Spirit of Nature and invests in the Nature Magic line, you probably will see a bit more benefit from this since you’ll get much better stability up time.

Terrahero.9358:

It’s like you’re trying to sell the Scrapper, but it’s not very convincing. You’re not using the Hammer or any of the new skills.

So the message seems to be “Hey guys, you can technically play the Scrapper because the traitline is a valid third choice, but dont use the heal, the elite, the utility skills or the hammer.”

No, Scrapper is a wash in pve.

I mean, if you want to define playing “scrapper” as running five gyros and a hammer, that’s up to you. But I killed the Vale Guardian and I got Gorseval to 50% last night with this build, and just helped another guild group earlier kill the Vale Guardian again with two engineers running this build while I was on my warrior.

Not every new specialization is going to be a gigantic departure, but they each contribute something new and useful. Most Dragonhunters still run greatsword + scepter/focus in the raid, and most Berserkers are still camping greatsword for Phalanx Strength.

PWNcakesAndROFLs.8263:

Also, I’m not sure if it was a build editor mistake, but I noticed that you where running Shaped charge over short fuse. Any reasoning behind that choice?

Oh, yeah. I’ll fix that right now.

To play a Scrapper, you need a hammer, 5 gyros, and also to wear the Scrapper helm while constantly shouting “CAN WE FIX IT? YES WE CAN!!”.

Oh, and you need to play a Charr too.

Tried out the build a bit last night and actually found that I liked Blast Gyro better than Slick Shoes. The Super Speed is AoE and the CC can also be used on Seekers to keep them away. Since it launches, it does plenty on breakbars. Sync this with powder keg and you almost have the breakbar by yourself.

Update: ended up going back to straight meta Condi. The super speed is nice, but the FT knock back is just too good at controlling seekers and the extra burning is great for DPS. As long as your other red team members are at least somewhat prepared for breakbars, ft and powder keg seem to be sufficient for the split phase.

Dahkeus.8243:

As long as your other red team members are at least somewhat prepared for breakbars, ft and powder keg seem to be sufficient for the split phase.

i was having trouble with exactly that but i think our group wasnt quite fully prepared for it

insanemaniac.2456:

Dahkeus.8243:

As long as your other red team members are at least somewhat prepared for breakbars, ft and powder keg seem to be sufficient for the split phase.

i was having trouble with exactly that but i think our group wasnt quite fully prepared for it

Yea, I think if you can’t down the red guard with powderkeg and FT alone, the problem is somewhere in the group and not your build.

Don’t forget that, with Explosives, blasting your healing turret is a knockback as well.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Don’t forget that, with Explosives, blasting your healing turret is a knockback as well.

Yar, that too. Plus the tiny bit that soft CCs do (immob, crip, blind, chill).

actually for that bar specifically soft ccs dont seem to do anything. only hard… i was trying lol. had a bit better run last night. condi engi has lots of blind, immob, cripple, and chill… but i still had to wait on my 3 hard ccs every time in about 10 pulls, most getting guardian < 33% (~20 red fights). 2 engi, 1 druid on red, both engis running standard ish condi, standard? condi druid with the wave glyph. we had enough of everything (but luck) but we were waiting on hard ccs for sure.