Guild Wars 2

Is pathetic how scrappers can deal a huge amounts of and still be able to sustain such…
there nothing much to explain, this is a fact and it needs to be fixed right away kitten , i wonder how stupid arena net is to not see this.

indeed , hammer dmg should be nerfed about 20% .

You are aware we have quite a large skill cap? The sustain is from the fields. Save CC for when he plays a water field. Scrapper doesn’t need a nerf, you need to improve.

Also please think about PvE. A 20% damage reduction? That’s a massive hit for what is our only strong power based weapon.

Here’s another weakness. Conditions. Hit us with conditions and we fall. Thank you!

Bwadark.2519:

That’s a massive hit for what is our only strong power based weapon.

Rifle ?

you need to improve X 2

My main class is Scrapper but actually I play with Reaper. In fight with Scrapper I use corrupt Boon and bye bye Scraper…

Scrapper got enough nerfs in the past, u just need to learn how to play against them.
Scrapper are weak against: condi, hard cc, kite. We must have a lot of blocks, invuln and evades because we lack condi cleanse, stability, armor, and range attacks.
The only thing that is patethic, is that you whine in the engi forum that we are too strong in your oppinion.

tldr; L2P

Yeah; I’d have agreed more in the prior patch, and they’re still strong, but I think the stigma has hold more than reality now, they’re not that bad.

And yeah, especially with a signet reaper around, things be pen significantly easier.

mov.1246:

snip…we lack condi cleanse, stability, armor.

I can only assume you are a troll.

We don’t lack any of those things. Your build might lack them, not the class.

Yeah yeah yeah… Go back to playing your thief.

We got our nerfs. We’re very weak against conditions; any even moderately-good Necro can defeat us with condition spam. Mesmers are really strong against us.

Also, engineer/scrapper is by far the hardest class to play. If you spent an equal amount of time playing each class, you’d be the worst at engineer.

If (engineer === “easy kill”) {
Console.log (“Dam that engi was so bad . I’m am so great”);
}
else {
console.log (“waaaahhh waaaahhhh why wasn’t that scrapper easy points!”);
}
Original thread is pretty useless in say we teach rock how to code instead !?!?

Still learning. But that about rite?

Rocknull.2986:

If (engineer === “easy kill”) {
Console.log (“Dam that engi was so bad . I’m am so great”);
}
else {
console.log (“waaaahhh waaaahhhh why wasn’t that scrapper easy points!”);
}
Original thread is pretty useless in say we teach rock how to code instead !?!?

Still learning. But that about rite?

Sounds right. I apply that to myself when I lose to reapers.

I am not a troll, I just compare scrapper to other professions

Sure. We need more topics about scrapper being good until any bearbow can beat it.

I ran tests against chilloreapers yesterday for shout hammer/mace-shield warrior in custom arenas with friends. And I got the same amount of rage :-) nerf every meta to hell. We want to be archers, pistolers and rest junk

I’d like to see less damage on the skills in return of more defensive abilities on them. Then you also would have to buff the rifles damage output tough

wolverine.5164:

Is pathetic how scrappers can deal a huge amounts of and still be able to sustain such…
there nothing much to explain, this is a fact and it needs to be fixed right away kitten , i wonder how stupid arena net is to not see this.

This is just your opinion.

You can see Scrapper dmg coming quite well if you know how they work, so that makes it easier to counter. Especially if you can make them use their hammer defenses, without them having used the attack part of the ability on you (or the other way around).

The same goes for their sustain through combo fields. Stop their combo with a water field (by saving a cc for that) and that really hurts the Scrappers sustain.

After hammer 2 and 4 (both melee range), their dmg drops until those are back up.
Hammer 5 you can step out of, so that you avoid most of its dmg.
Hammer 3 (leap+uber telegraphed) wont hit someone fully unless that target is in cc or does nothing about it.

I would say scrapper received enough nerfs.
Maybe Automatic medical response could be redesigned (non Scrapper talent that lot of Scrappers take). Like in here:https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/Different-Automatic-medical-response/first#post5964042

and maybe Adaptive armor lowered a tad, but quicker stacking.
That would be about it regarding nerfs tbh (not more without compensation at least. Would love to see our utility gyros and heal gyro being made useful/reliable).

I have never seen a tournament where a team used 2 scrappers, unlike Druid, Reaper, Herald, Chrono, Tempest, Ele, from who I have all seen multiple in a team.
Scrapper dropped in power relatively, so I dont see a reason why they would start to stack them now.

So Scrapper cant be as good as you exaggarate.
They werent overly represented either.
Especially only a few in NA tournies.

Also its not like Scrapper stomps all others in 1 on 1 either.
Scrapper is a good build, but it doesnt have a big advantage over anyone, bar maybe a not super skilled Daredevil and Power Berserker.

Against Reapers it loses (I melt them when I sometimes play Reaper).
Against others its either slight advantage, slight disadvantage or stalemate.

That doesnt sound like something that needs big nerfing.

Definitely Scraper is not weak

When I think “now it became serious” I go out of my Reaper and will go toScraper
If you use the right build has a very good damage, great removal condition and great sustain like hp regeneration, it is actually a very good class, but not immortal and I see no need to nerf.

I play more WvW, not like spvp but the WVW and pve it is excellent in pve ground was very good after the last update and the group engineer condition is always the target. In WvW is a class for roaming and group and one of the best, this in my opinion.

But he is not the best at all, if u learn to play Scraper will learn to kill him, funny I kill engineers with mine until easily Reaper, but I also kill Reapers with my easiest way to engineer yet, so what really matters is you know the strengths and weaknesses of each class … and of course have fingers: D

Have you tried fighting a reaper dardevil chron dragon hunter even zerker to a point? I think scrapper is FOM but in no way is it better then at least 3 of the elite spec i named. (btw i am on the FOM though i wanted to play eng for some time never could get away from ele comply though and i must say eng the true jack of all triads not ele.)

Bwadark.2519:

You are aware we have quite a large skill cap? The sustain is from the fields. Save CC for when he plays a water field. Scrapper doesn’t need a nerf, you need to improve.

Also please think about PvE. A 20% damage reduction? That’s a massive hit for what is our only strong power based weapon.

Here’s another weakness. Conditions. Hit us with conditions and we fall. Thank you!

Scrapper with meta build is stupidly easy though. Only 1 kit to take care and free ticket out of jail Sneak Gyro. It’s easy as hell to play Scrapper and it’s pretty op to be honest.

Petoox.6570:

Scrapper with meta build is stupidly easy though. Only 1 kit to take care and free ticket out of jail Sneak Gyro. It’s easy as hell to play Scrapper and it’s pretty op to be honest.

Well yeah, but you also just described every class ever.

Yeah, a scrapper with just 1 kit is like any other class with two weapons, minus a utility slot but more F skills instead…
Also kill the kitten gyro.

wolverine.5164:

Is pathetic how scrappers can deal a huge amounts of and still be able to sustain such…
there nothing much to explain, this is a fact and it needs to be fixed right away kitten , i wonder how stupid arena net is to not see this.

It took me 250 skill points to earn the title and 30 to even use a stupid hammer. It better be OP.

mov.1246:

I am not a troll, I just compare scrapper to other professions

if this statement is true then you would be considering necromancers and Revenants Gods

So you are saying eles/tempests should be nerfed too ?

Well everytime I see post like this I want force those ppl to make video where they achieve with engi same level of skill what they cant win against. Engi have hardest learning curve in game and high skill should be properly rewarded.

We were here at the start when engi was most underpowered class. We learned it perfectly and squezed from class everything we could to make us competetive. Now when Anet boosted engi in line with other classes we are sudenly superior/overpowered to some. Why? Its not because our class is better but because engi players are generaly better then rest due to that need to be good in past when engi wasnt cool yet.

So dear OP.. l2p.

Well lets be honest here.. saying scrapper has the highest skill cap simply isn’t true. Heck, you can force a stalemate against anyone by just using stealth gyro whenever it’s up and knowing how to hammer #3 in a water field… There’s also a very good reason there are ten times the amount of engineer players at the moment than there was pre-HoT.

Few points for what i’ve seen in comments:
-The hardest class? Nope.
-No stability, condicleanse, armor? They have planty of that.
-Not stacked on tournaments? Ya’know patch? No bunker mes? No tournaments after?
-Reaper kills it? – you have realiable condicleanse, dmg reduction rev/mes doesn’t.

Now my thoughts: It is new DD ele.
As the classes go in pvp ranking (imo):
1.Reaper
2.Scrapper
3.Rev/druid
4.Thief (only cause he can deal with necro better then rev)
5.Rest.

Rudy.6184:

Few points for what i’ve seen in comments:
-The hardest class? Nope.
-No stability, condicleanse, armor? They have planty of that.
-Not stacked on tournaments? Ya’know patch? No bunker mes? No tournaments after?
-Reaper kills it? – you have realiable condicleanse, dmg reduction rev/mes doesn’t.

the problem is all of you people blow your scrapper encounters out of proportions
i would like to see this 3 gyro 3 elixirs elixir gun flamethrower berserkmenderpaladin
P/P+Hammer weapon swapping scrappers you guys seem to speak of

certainly not the hardest class because scrapper has been forced to choose between two builds pretty much either retaliation cleric bunker or paladin bruiser

outside of Toss Elixir B engineer only has Flamethrower with juggernaut for stability as a scrapper they have stability on summon gyro wich means they’d need at least 3 gyros in their kit and give up the protection adept trait and elixirs and lose condi cleanse for high stability uptime

“reliable” condi cleanse requires taking elixir traitline with HGH and taking elixir gun and something like elixir C so thats two non offensive utilities right out the bat

if someone considers reaper,chronomancer and revenant balanced but scrapper OP then i’ll call hypocrisy and bias

-20% damage? Sorry it´s a joke? And we will forced to run condi in pve. Why do you think that there is just few hammer scrappers in pve? The war axe #1 deals more damage than the hole hammer.
Scrapper doesn t have a huge dps it´s just a cycle burst. Learn to avoid him and win.

Rezzet.3614:

Rudy.6184:

Few points for what i’ve seen in comments:
-The hardest class? Nope.
-No stability, condicleanse, armor? They have planty of that.
-Not stacked on tournaments? Ya’know patch? No bunker mes? No tournaments after?
-Reaper kills it? – you have realiable condicleanse, dmg reduction rev/mes doesn’t.

the problem is all of you people blow your scrapper encounters out of proportions
i would like to see this 3 gyro 3 elixirs elixir gun flamethrower berserkmenderpaladin
P/P+Hammer weapon swapping scrappers you guys seem to speak of

certainly not the hardest class because scrapper has been forced to choose between two builds pretty much either retaliation cleric bunker or paladin bruiser

outside of Toss Elixir B engineer only has Flamethrower with juggernaut for stability as a scrapper they have stability on summon gyro wich means they’d need at least 3 gyros in their kit and give up the protection adept trait and elixirs and lose condi cleanse for high stability uptime

“reliable” condi cleanse requires taking elixir traitline with HGH and taking elixir gun and something like elixir C so thats two non offensive utilities right out the bat

if someone considers reaper,chronomancer and revenant balanced but scrapper OP then i’ll call hypocrisy and bias

Scrapper is OP because all of those things can be put into one build to make a godly class.

Firstly, you don’t need elixir c when you have EG (3 condis) Inventions and healing turret (3 condis) and elixir b (2 condis) and from traits, another 2 condis removed. Not taking the protection trait is becoming more meta as well, and with toss elixir b, Scrapper has plenty of stability up-time.

On top of all that you have a good amount of stealth, perma-regeneration (250+ healing per second and 750+ with super speed), perma-retal, perma-fury, good protection up-time for when you need it, and can pump out 10k+ healing from healing turret alone not including other potential combos. Scrapper seriously has no downfall and when someone stuffs up with it there’s an immediate way to completely recover.

No other profession possesses all of these things, with good damage, in a single build. The reason no other scrapper builds are about is because they cannot achieve this level of synergy and usefulness.

epouvante.7392:

-20% damage? Sorry it´s a joke? And we will forced to run condi in pve. Why do you think that there is just few hammer scrappers in pve? The war axe #1 deals more damage than the hole hammer.
Scrapper doesn t have a huge dps it´s just a cycle burst. Learn to avoid him and win.

Seroiusly, while we talk about pvp, you bring argument from pve side? Ridiculus. Maybe avoid slick shoes without stability?

As for HGH and alchemy overall. You take it, everyone does. Defensive only? You consider might stacks? I sometimes have 20+ of them. And I do only consider one build, and it has everything i mentioned (or you didnt read the patch notes). You can have stability whenever you evade. Also 2 stunbreaks.

You know why i consider engi better then rev? Cause he has condicleanse. It is like DD ele was and it is fact, cause he has same tools and playstyle.
I mained ele for few years and knew that he was broken at some point, so I swapped to my thief. Scrapper is not as kingy, cause he has to share space with reaper.

Well, balancing impacts pve as well, at least until they’ll finally, properly split it.
It only makes sense for people to wish to not have further useless things in pve due to an unrelated mode.
Especially seeing as pve balance was already harmed by such decisions in the past (and continues to do so, i should add).

archmagus.7249:

Yeah yeah yeah… Go back to playing your thief.

We got our nerfs. We’re very weak against conditions; any even moderately-good Necro can defeat us with condition spam. Mesmers are really strong against us.

Also, engineer/scrapper is by far the hardest class to play. If you spent an equal amount of time playing each class, you’d be the worst at engineer.

Scrapper hardest to play? Not in pvp mate, it is actually a very forgiving profession in pvp with lots of options, they have plenty condi removal/2 stun breaks and 2 very strong cc skills, they can swap some utilities around like bulwark/gyro/elixer B/Elixer X, depending on the match up. Additionally they do have access to stability, through elixer B and a scrapper trait. Finally they can pair this up with decent damage all while being able to survive for a long period of time.

Scrappers are very strong and could use a nerf to the Survivability/Damage ratio. Also you have a very competitive condi build in pve. Though I would prefer a nerf to pvp damage only, it is not like a nerf to power damage would affect engineers in raids/fractals.

Hum if you want to show all the scrapper possibilities we can make it for all professions you know?
- reaper, spamming a lot of condi, nobody could dispel continuously a reaper: chill, weakness, snare, fear, bleed, burn, torment, vuln. Have an overpowered dps, and condi burst at the same time. Stun option via the elite, mignion assist. A lot of corrupt, transfert. Survivability up via death shroud spamming.
- thief, hum the thief. Evade evade evda evade, cc, 3 shot good bye. And it´s not a joke we have a good thief in our team , when he pop behing you he spam the dagger #1 and it´s over.
We can continue like this for quasi all professions man.
For info, the bulwark gyro is easily killable. Boons could be easily corrupted. Cc via #5 hammer it´s dodgable. A hammer scrapper is kittable without condi snare and the gap closser (#3 hammer ) is on 12 sec now…
If you talk about 1v1 yes the scrapper is strong but in pvp (mainly 2v2 or 3v3) it´s not the same. When you face 2-3 guys gyros are useless.

Every decent engi that plays scrapper should recognize that this build is over the top and needs zero skill. I can’t even handle this thread…

Rudy.6184:

epouvante.7392:

-20% damage? Sorry it´s a joke? And we will forced to run condi in pve. Why do you think that there is just few hammer scrappers in pve? The war axe #1 deals more damage than the hole hammer.
Scrapper doesn t have a huge dps it´s just a cycle burst. Learn to avoid him and win.

Seroiusly, while we talk about pvp, you bring argument from pve side? Ridiculus. Maybe avoid slick shoes without stability?

As for HGH and alchemy overall. You take it, everyone does. Defensive only? You consider might stacks? I sometimes have 20+ of them. And I do only consider one build, and it has everything i mentioned (or you didnt read the patch notes). You can have stability whenever you evade. Also 2 stunbreaks.

You know why i consider engi better then rev? Cause he has condicleanse. It is like DD ele was and it is fact, cause he has same tools and playstyle.
I mained ele for few years and knew that he was broken at some point, so I swapped to my thief. Scrapper is not as kingy, cause he has to share space with reaper.

you want to know why everyone considers elixir OP? because everyone started bandwagoning to condispam builds leaving no build choices

elixirs have at minimum 30 second cooldowns , might stacks mean nothing when everyone and their grandmothers has boonstrip and boon corruption or flat out boon steal

you confused engineer with revenant, engineer can get stability while evading if they give up protection sure but it is not whenever scrapper uses evade it is whenever scrapper Succesfully Evades an attack 5s cooldown by the way

and honestly i just noticed you’re just biased lumping out all engineer skills in a single build elixirs+slickshoes+elixir gun

what the hell are you using that you cant fight a build with no ranged nor lock down skills?
why are you blaming scrapper for not running a single stun break in your build?

NitroApe.9104:

Every decent engi that plays scrapper should recognize that this build is over the top and needs zero skill. I can’t even handle this thread…

answer me What the kitten is this 2 adept 1 master and 2 grandmasters traits

with 3 elixirs,slickshoes,elixir gun,sneak gyro Paladin+Mender amulet build?

lets see how open minded people are
What do you think actually needs nerfing ?
this is the statement no one has made
Be Specific dont just go and say sustain or damage because that could mean anything

Rezzet.3614:

lets see how open minded people are
What do you think actually needs nerfing ?
this is the statement no one has made
Be Specific dont just go and say sustain or damage because that could mean anything

Well … stuff. You know? Because devs.

That’s how complaining on the internet works!?

Rezzet.3614:

lets see how open minded people are
What do you think actually needs nerfing ?
this is the statement no one has made
Be Specific dont just go and say sustain or damage because that could mean anything

- Hammer: Cooldowns or damage. At the moment it just deals too much damage considering its tanky charakter. Make it more like shield offhand: utility, less dmg.
Also, #3 shouldn’t be a triple finisher, but that’s just my opinion.
- Gyro is fine, I guess. Maybe it could use an even higher cooldown, like 50-60 seconds, but make the detonation a stun instead of a daze?
- Traits: So, back then alchemy gave us a choice: It was either backpack regenerator for higher sustain and longer fights or auto elixir for sort of glassy builds, that need invuln more than sustain (doesn’t matter that every engi preferred elixir over regen, it’s all about the concept)
The scrapper tree provides protection, stability/adaptive armor and a very good regen trait, we can use alongside auto elixir.
Regeneration, Protection, Stability on its own is balanced, just like blocks, invuln and stealth. But combine all those mechanics in one build and you will get a nearly invulnerable bunker. And that’s exactly what the scrapper is.
So imo the scrapper tree could use a nerf too, it doesn’t even matter which trait.

Rezzet.3614:

lets see how open minded people are
What do you think actually needs nerfing ?
this is the statement no one has made
Be Specific dont just go and say sustain or damage because that could mean anything

• cut the healing from bunker down medpacks by 10%.
• cut rapid regen by 10%.
• change the boon duration in alchemy to something else that is useful but simply isnt boon duration (perhaps a C @ 5 condis, high ish cd). (keep the elixirs cleansing 1 condi half of the trait.)
• cut the protection from recovery matrix from 6 secs to 5 (or maybe 4).

after all that, scrapper should be more in line.

NitroApe.9104:

Rezzet.3614:

lets see how open minded people are
What do you think actually needs nerfing ?
this is the statement no one has made
Be Specific dont just go and say sustain or damage because that could mean anything

- Hammer: Cooldowns or damage. At the moment it just deals too much damage considering its tanky charakter. Make it more like shield offhand: utility, less dmg.
Also, #3 shouldn’t be a triple finisher, but that’s just my opinion.
- Gyro is fine, I guess. Maybe it could use an even higher cooldown, like 50-60 seconds, but make the detonation a stun instead of a daze?
- Traits: So, back then alchemy gave us a choice: It was either backpack regenerator for higher sustain and longer fights or auto elixir for sort of glassy builds, that need invuln more than sustain (doesn’t matter that every engi preferred elixir over regen, it’s all about the concept)
The scrapper tree provides protection, stability/adaptive armor and a very good regen trait, we can use alongside auto elixir.
Regeneration, Protection, Stability on its own is balanced, just like blocks, invuln and stealth. But combine all those mechanics in one build and you will get a nearly invulnerable bunker. And that’s exactly what the scrapper is.
So imo the scrapper tree could use a nerf too, it doesn’t even matter which trait.

what you ask for is way too dramatic and would completely break the profession
the only hammer skill with a short cooldown is electro whirl wich only blocks ranged projectiles not melee nor non projectile ranged attacks in this skill’s case it would need its scaling lowered to 2.0 or 1.8 out of 2.2 or have its cooldown increased to 8 seconds

as for gyro you did not specify so i assume you mean sneak gyro and honestly that’d be a good change as long the stun is a 2 seconds stun

rocket leap being triple finisher seems fine to me low damage hard to properly land and honestly it only seems broken when you use it on a build with something like mender amulet in wich case each leap heals over 3000 hp

as far as invuln elixir any engineer would tell you they dont really use it and would gladly give it up over nerfing elixirs as the auto elixir locks all skills and usually at 25% hp the one thing you wanna do is heal

however the problem i think is scrapper cant be balanced properly until the condi meta is toned down right now all scrapper can do is build anti Power builds

tone down the condi easy access and low cooldowns and then scrappers wont have to build fully bunker and full cleanse

insanemaniac.2456:

Rezzet.3614:

lets see how open minded people are
What do you think actually needs nerfing ?
this is the statement no one has made
Be Specific dont just go and say sustain or damage because that could mean anything

• cut the healing from bunker down medpacks by 10%.
• cut rapid regen by 10%.
• change the boon duration in alchemy to something else that is useful but simply isnt boon duration (perhaps a C @ 5 condis, high ish cd). (keep the elixirs cleansing 1 condi half of the trait.)
• cut the protection from recovery matrix from 6 secs to 5 (or maybe 4).

after all that, scrapper should be more in line.

i think rapid regen needs its base heal lowered but have its healing scaling increased right now it offers almost 500 hp/s without healing power

med packs i dont know they would only be a problem in rifle or pistol builds as for scrappers to benefit from it they need to be meleeing and even then they dont necesarily spawn ontop of the player so if they arent fully aware they ll miss them

i’d prefer having HgH boon duration replaced with Acidic Elixirs

Rezzet.3614:

insanemaniac.2456:

Rezzet.3614:

lets see how open minded people are
What do you think actually needs nerfing ?
this is the statement no one has made
Be Specific dont just go and say sustain or damage because that could mean anything

• cut the healing from bunker down medpacks by 10%.
• cut rapid regen by 10%.
• change the boon duration in alchemy to something else that is useful but simply isnt boon duration (perhaps a C @ 5 condis, high ish cd). (keep the elixirs cleansing 1 condi half of the trait.)
• cut the protection from recovery matrix from 6 secs to 5 (or maybe 4).

after all that, scrapper should be more in line.

i think rapid regen needs its base heal lowered but have its healing scaling increased right now it offers almost 500 hp/s without healing power

med packs i dont know they would only be a problem in rifle or pistol builds as for scrappers to benefit from it they need to be meleeing and even then they dont necesarily spawn ontop of the player so if they arent fully aware they ll miss them

i’d prefer having HgH boon duration replaced with Acidic Elixirs

on med packs:

the sustain you get out of these is directly tied to how many crits you dish out. with a crit amulet and hammer, you do lots and lots and lots of crits. you have gap closers and dashes to help you stay in melee and your crits give you another hit that can crit and give you more healing.

proccing it every 2 seconds is too strong in combination with having 3 defensive lines and zerker damage. something about it needs to change. it is balanced when using rifle, pistols, or even nades or ft. the weapons dont put out an especially large amount of hits, so your expected time to next medpack isnt 2-2.1 secs, its more like 2-3 secs. so that is a huge difference in overall effectiveness. those kits DO put out an inordinate amount of hits, but its balanced out by the fact that the kits dont do very good damage without explosives, firearms, or something else. so an engi using 1 of those kits is either giving up some damage or giving up a defensive traitline in order to make use of the synergy between high crit rate, multihit skills, and bunker downs sustain component.

its kind of blatant that bunker down is fine with anything but hammer, because just prior to HoT inventions was a great choice, but engi sustain was definitely not an issue with or without bunker down.

on acidic elixirs:

idk man, offensive support isnt exactly what alchemy needs. imo. im not defending my suggestion of C, but mixing offense and defense and getting too much of both is whats putting us in the situation of discussing nerfs in the first place.

Rezzet.3614:

lets see how open minded people are
What do you think actually needs nerfing ?
this is the statement no one has made
Be Specific dont just go and say sustain or damage because that could mean anything

You want a serious answer? Okay.

To start this off: This is from a PvP perspective. I am not in favor of buffing core things that were fine in terms of power pre-HoT. This will only lead to further power creep, which I believe is very bad for the game in the long term. So many changes I would like are instead aiming to tone new abilities/traits down to the level of pre-HoT core abilities/traits. Please keep that in mind.

The first problem I have with scrapper is that hammer is far superior to all of our other weapon choices. It has better defenses than P/S, as well as better & more frequent burst than rifle (as well as better CC). I don’t think it’s very fair to compare it to the pure condition P/P set, but P/P has some serious issues right now, first in the condi transfer from reapers that are now omnipresent, and second from its inability to contest a point for any decent amount of time, thanks to its lack of considerable active defense and how much damage pressure has increased on average since the introduction of HoT.

To address these issues there are two abilities on hammer that I think need to see change: Rocket Charge and Thunderclap.

Rocket Charge is currently far too good of a skill thanks to its triple leap finishers alone, considering how good our access to water fields is. To put this into perspective, a simple combo of HT+overcharge into rocket charge into detonate HT will, at only 250 healing power, gives you 10.8k self healing, on dealing good damage & providing short evade frames. You can alternate this with mortar kit’s elixir shell for more leap healing, or do either combos into a wall/corner for usually the same healing without the risk of your enemy blinking out of range. This is simply too strong. I don’t believe the skill can be balanced while keeping the triple leap finisher without increasing the cooldown to 30+ seconds, which I don’t think anyone would like, so I am in favor of reworking the skill into a single leap/rush, with all of the damage moved into a single hit. This will also allow for more counterplay.

Thunderclap I believe simply has far too high range for the effect that it has. It is a very strong AoE CC, with disruption nearly on the level of supply crate (which, if anyone remembers, was run by everyone in PvP prior to the core specs update, and considered one of the better elites in the game), as well as high damage & area denial on a relatively low cooldown. I believe that all of that in one is too much without adding a considerable drawback to the skill, so I would like to see the range decreased significantly to around 400. Note that the radius of the skill is still 240, so you can still hit targets at ~600 range like this with good aim. I think this will make counterplay significantly easier, as the engineer and thus the skill animation will almost always be visible at that range.

The second problem I see with Scrapper is that it is now possible to run 3 full defensive lines while still dealing good on-point damage with the combination of hammer, elixir gun, and HGH. Our 2 best defensive lines, Alchemy and Scrapper, are already very strong together, and adding in Inventions to that mix simply takes that overboard, especially the sustain.

The simple and lazy fix to this would be to have Bunker Down change places with one of the non-HGH Alchemy grandmasters, as this would be a significant hit to the currently-overboard Scrapper sustain, & more incentive to run a damaging line instead of triple defensive lines. However this would mean Inventions would be in a considerably worse position, and Bunker Down would hardly ever be taken.

So the better solution I think is to change HGH. Currently HGH affects a ton of skills, and the +20% duration -20% cd it gives is a very significant uptime increase, which is compounded for boons thanks to alchemy’s free +20% boon duration. I would like to cut elixir gun skills away from HGH, and instead add a trait that specifically addresses elixir gun skills, and adds something that fits the kit better thematically than free Might. With EGun skills no longer giving considerable might uptime, the currently high damage of 3x defensive line Scrappers is cut down, and it is lowered further by the decreased uptime on Acid Bomb, which currently constitutes a significant portion of Scrapper damage. Unfortunately right now I don’t have a very solid idea of what I would like this trait to do, or where it should go.

I realize a lot of people would be unhappy with this change, as it would stop the elixir trait from affecting the Elixir Gun, but I believe it is a necessary step for balance. The currently HGH does too much for far too many skills, and adding in the synergy it has with the minors in its own Alchemy line, as well as Self Regulating Defenses in the same line, has made Alchemy (and HGH) into a mandatory line for Engineer in PvP. I think that cutting down the very high number of skills it affects is the first and most important step for changing that. I would not mind seeing the might duration nerf HGH received reverted once EGun skills are cut off though.

There are also defensive traits in the Scrapper line that I believe are overperforming right now, which could use some shaves, but I don’t believe these changes are nearly as important as the ones I have listed above. But since this is a Scrapper balance post I’ll go ahead and mention them: I think Recovery Matrix could do with a ~20% duration nerf (still), the Super Speed portion of Rapid Regeneration healing could use a ~25% hit to its base healing (not HP scaling), and Adaptive Armor should have its condition damage reduction lowered to 15% or so. Those aren’t exact numbers, but more of a general list of the main traits there I think are overperforming, and where I think they should take a hit.

I should note that I played Marauder Scrapper from ruby to legendary last season, and I may be a little biased in that I did not enjoy the playstyle at all and would rather have more interesting styles with more kits rise to the top, but I do believe the above changes are fair and a good step in the right direction.

EDIT: Should probably add that I agree with adding a short (1/4s – 1/2s) cast to sneak gyro.

TL;DR: Rework Rocket Charge into single leap/rush, significantly reduce Thunderclap range, make HGH not affect EGun skills & revert might duration nerf, make slight nerfs to major Scrapper defensive traits. But read the kitten thing before you go and rant about this.

Agree with the precedent TL;DR. But without the HCG on elixir gun we lost 2 dispel. Actually the necros condi burst is just famous chill, snare, weakness, bleed, burn, torment. It´s not so good to loose this two good dispel. If the condi spam reaper is nerf maybe i totally agree with the previous proposal changes.

Rezzet.3614:

lets see how open minded people are
What do you think actually needs nerfing ?
this is the statement no one has made
Be Specific dont just go and say sustain or damage because that could mean anything

Hammer damage (reduce by 10%-ish on the whirl and rocket charge) and not making rocket charge a triple leap finisher. Lower rapid regeneration healing and increase the stealth gyro cooldown. We’d have to remember that pre-HoT engineer was in a generally greed ‘good spot’ so toning down only the elite spec would be wisest before cutting into core traitlines.

AND just for clarification purposes, everyone in this thread is talking about this overpowered scrapper spec with stability, condi cleanse, etc… —>http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Scrapper_-_Power_Hammer

You’d have to be new to engineer and never played a core engineer build to not see how easy it is in comparison.

For those concerned about the damage reduction in PvE… this is why PvE and PvP should be split. You have a hybrid defensive/offensive (currently great at both) weapon like hammer and can’t expect it to be capable of dishing out as much damage as other full DPS focused weapons in a pvp setting.

epouvante.7392:

Hum if you want to show all the scrapper possibilities we can make it for all professions you know?
- reaper, spamming a lot of condi, nobody could dispel continuously a reaper: chill, weakness, snare, fear, bleed, burn, torment, vuln. Have an overpowered dps, and condi burst at the same time. Stun option via the elite, mignion assist. A lot of corrupt, transfert. Survivability up via death shroud spamming.
- thief, hum the thief. Evade evade evda evade, cc, 3 shot good bye. And it´s not a joke we have a good thief in our team , when he pop behing you he spam the dagger #1 and it´s over.
We can continue like this for quasi all professions man.
For info, the bulwark gyro is easily killable. Boons could be easily corrupted. Cc via #5 hammer it´s dodgable. A hammer scrapper is kittable without condi snare and the gap closser (#3 hammer ) is on 12 sec now…
If you talk about 1v1 yes the scrapper is strong but in pvp (mainly 2v2 or 3v3) it´s not the same. When you face 2-3 guys gyros are useless.

You cant cause other professions don’t have as many options as Scrappers do, see the list you put for reaper and thief doesnt even come close to the options scrappers have. The amount of damage they can deal while being able to stay alive is ridiculous. Unlike scrappers other professions have weaknesses, scrappers with their phlentora of options dont have real ones.

You cant hold m down, with 2 stunbreaks and plenty of disengage options while also having stability if they trait for it, it is not gonna happen. You can’t reliably power burst m cause they have blocks/evades/stealth gyro/bulwark/Toolbelt skill on bulwark and they will regenerate. Weak to condi? No sir you have plenty of removal skills. Kite m? How exactly? They have plenty of skills to hold you down, EG auto ( not much dmg I agree), swiftness options , cripple and hard CC to hold you down.

They win or stalemate any profession on side points and in term of team fights they bring loads of utility with gyros. elixers ( Moa / Transform), damage and interupts.

But hey, I dont mind if scrappers do not get nerfed, having plenty of fun on mine owning. The only thing most scrapper builds lack is true ranged damage, hardly a weakness people can take advantage off in conquest.

DutchRiders.2871:

They win or stalemate any profession on side points and in term of team fights they bring loads of utility with gyros. elixers ( Moa / Transform), damage and interupts.

But hey, I dont mind if scrappers do not get nerfed, having plenty of fun on mine owning. The only thing most scrapper builds lack is true ranged damage, hardly a weakness.

and that is why we call L2P
because people try to use that last bit as excuse wich is impossible standards cant have moa+sneak gyro nor elixirs+ gyros asides from medi gyro and maybe one more gyro but then wouldnt have damage and interrupts

also immortal scrapper is proven even more wrong recently with the rise of paladin viper and/or mercenary DHs with the new burn+trap burst build and condi thiefs spamming dagger number 3 to victory

Twigifire.8379:

For those concerned about the damage reduction in PvE… this is why PvE and PvP should be split. You have a hybrid defensive/offensive (currently great at both) weapon like hammer and can’t expect it to be capable of dishing out as much damage as other full DPS focused weapons in a pvp setting.

I agree on them having to split balance – mostly because the modes are completely different, and the rest of the game isn’t based upon defending a small circle.
But comparing the hammer to other weapons isn’t exactly fair…mainly because those other classes have two weapon sets available at any time, and as such they’re balanced. *
And even if we were to make a comparison with other engineer weapons…it isn’t like we’ve got any other melee weapon to compare it with.

It seems to me that the main issue pvp-people have with it is in the design of the specialization itself – a tanky melee fighter with straightforward abilities and reduced group support (usually to its own detriment – purge and healing gyro target a single player at a time, after all).
Essentially, someone that’s extremely suited for conquest mode by design.
And if there is an issue, it is exactly there. It shouldn’t have been designed in such a way to begin with.
And given that’s the problem, i don’t think nerfing it would solve anything. If you remove what they’re supposed to be its strong points, the whole spec becomes pointless.
What could be reasonably done is to change the spec to make it less selfish and more oriented to groups, mainly by changing some traits so that it is less strong while alone (thus reducing its efficency in such situations) while not making the spec pointless in doing so. A trait like rapid regeneration could be changed to heal for a lesser amount but have its effect extended to allies too.
Adaptive armor could be changed (and its values decreased in doing so) to make it apply to nearby allies as well, alike Strength in Numbers, Spotter and similar buffs.
So that

• someone will mention kits or the toolbelt; kits aren’t available all the time (being optional) and thus aren’t the same as a second weapon set; and about the toolbelt, we aren’t the only class with F skills (guardians have 3 of them, for example, yet they don’t lack weapon skills as a drawback like engineers supposedly do)

Manuhell.2759:

Twigifire.8379:

For those concerned about the damage reduction in PvE… this is why PvE and PvP should be split. You have a hybrid defensive/offensive (currently great at both) weapon like hammer and can’t expect it to be capable of dishing out as much damage as other full DPS focused weapons in a pvp setting.

I agree on them having to split balance – mostly because the modes are completely different, and the rest of the game isn’t based upon defending a small circle.
But comparing the hammer to other weapons isn’t exactly fair…mainly because those other classes have two weapon sets available at any time, and as such they’re balanced. *
And even if we were to make a comparison with other engineer weapons…it isn’t like we’ve got any other melee weapon to compare it with.

It seems to me that the main issue pvp-people have with it is in the design of the specialization itself – a tanky melee fighter with straightforward abilities and reduced group support (usually to its own detriment – purge and healing gyro target a single player at a time, after all).
Essentially, someone that’s extremely suited for conquest mode by design.
And if there is an issue, it is exactly there. It shouldn’t have been designed in such a way to begin with.
And given that’s the problem, i don’t think nerfing it would solve anything. If you remove what they’re supposed to be its strong points, the whole spec becomes pointless.
What could be reasonably done is to change the spec to make it less selfish and more oriented to groups, mainly by changing some traits so that it is less strong while alone (thus reducing its efficency in such situations) while not making the spec pointless in doing so. A trait like rapid regeneration could be changed to heal for a lesser amount but have its effect extended to allies too.
Adaptive armor could be changed (and its values decreased in doing so) to make it apply to nearby allies as well, alike Strength in Numbers, Spotter and similar buffs.
So that

• someone will mention kits or the toolbelt; kits aren’t available all the time (being optional) and thus aren’t the same as a second weapon set; and about the toolbelt, we aren’t the only class with F skills (guardians have 3 of them, for example, yet they don’t lack weapon skills as a drawback like engineers supposedly do)

I agree with you.
Scrappers dont need nerfing, they need a playstyle shift.

People their issues with the Scrapper build, will be reduced if the Scrapper becomes less good in 1on1 and better in group support.

I like your suggestions of traits like Rapid regen and Adaptive armor being reduced for the Scrapper personally, but getting groupwide function.
The same could be done for similar traits. Like Recovery matrix for example?

Besides this, I would like to add, elixirs getting a wider radius.
Shouts and similar supportive spells have 600 radius, while elixirs only have 240.

It would also be nice if we can get rid of the randomness. When elixirs have a part where they give either a, b, or c boon. I rather just know which one it will be.

Small casttime to Stealthgryo seems fair too.

Other things I have read here.
Reducing the range of Hammer 5 could be done as well.
Around 600 would maybe be right.
Meaning it would have been reduced by half in range.

Some dmg from the Hammer abilities could maybe be shifted to the autoattacks, to make the other skills less damagy, without reducing overal dps.

Automatic medical response shouldnt reset heals anymore (not a Scrapper trait though). It should be more like :
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/Different-Automatic-medical-response/first#post5964042

The impression I get that enemies from Scrappers dislike:
Thief for example are really good in one area, with a big weakness in another (squishy when getting hit).
Scrapper is more allround.
Less specialised in one area than Thiefs. Not with no weaknesses, but those weaknesses are more spread around.
Scrapper is also well build for 1 on 1.
Builds good in 1 on 1 are often complained about.

p.s.

Would be nice if they could make the utility gyros and heal gyros useful by fixing their movement problems and stats issues for example.
In such case, you could maybe shift the stunbreak from Slickshoes toolbelt to the utility (would mean nearly double cd increase of the stunbreak) and/or to one of the Gyros/Gyro toolbelts.