Guild Wars 2

Fixing thread with reply.

(Sometimes it shows zero post, nor a button to second page, when the last post on first page has been done).

nerf hammer, not core engi. core engi is actually playable for wvw roaming right now, I can hold my own vs elites. having it nerfed would force engi to run scrapper which would blow.

furthermore, as hammer is the weapon that needs no kits to supplement it, and rifle and pistols need kits its obvious that it is too strong. hammer is too good currently, and that is the main issue.

choovanski.5462:

furthermore, as hammer is the weapon that needs no kits to supplement it, and rifle and pistols need kits its obvious that it is too strong. hammer is too good currently, and that is the main issue.

Why is it bad that it doesn’t need a kit to supplement it? It’s a good thing! We have also other skills than kits, you know? Kits are not our mechanic. It would surely be nice to see more builds using other utilities than kits.

If there is a nerf to hammer damage I would like that rocket charge was made in to a 3 click skill so I can choose not to continue with it, many say it is so OP but what many don’t know is that it is very hard to control and you can’t abort the skill. I am fighting a lot of engineers and they are one of the most easy classes to beat for me where Revenant is hardest and Reapers after that. Whats so special about scrappers is they are like DHs, once you learned how to fight them they are easy as pie.

But still yes, elite specs over all is plain OP. I can’t go back to play regular engineer anymore. But same goes for the other classes.

Enter and drop a kit while using Rocket Charge to abort it

Manuhell.2759:

• someone will mention kits or the toolbelt; kits aren’t available all the time (being optional) and thus aren’t the same as a second weapon set; and about the toolbelt, we aren’t the only class with F skills (guardians have 3 of them, for example, yet they don’t lack weapon skills as a drawback like engineers supposedly do)

Yeah but engineer has been designed with kits in mind to supplement for the loss of a weapon. Saying that hammer/engineer weapons need to be stronger to supplement for not having another weapon still allows for people to run kits, hence making it too strong with 1/2 kits effectively as good as another classes weapon as well as another weapon which is more powerful than others :P

You run kit so you loose your utility skills? Elem swith attument but have his utilities

Twigifire.8379:

Yeah but engineer has been designed with kits in mind to supplement for the loss of a weapon.

What you describe is essentially the attunement mechanic.
And that’s what we should have got if we were effectively supposed to be designed over kits. Instead, we’ve got the toolbelt.
Given that the engineer was the last class to be revealed, and that kits were kinda in a primitive state when the game was released, my impression about them is more about them being something added during late development to recycle other enviromental weapons and save some time, rather than something we were actually designed upon.

Twigifire.8379:

Saying that hammer/engineer weapons need to be stronger to supplement for not having another weapon still allows for people to run kits, hence making it too strong with 1/2 kits effectively as good as another classes weapon as well as another weapon which is more powerful than others :P

Well, that’s the issue with kits – how do you balance a class that can have either a single weapon or 6* at the same time (albeit, i do not think that kits are really comparable to proper weapons)?
The variance is far too high, indeed.
The proper solution should be to balance those kits accordingly, though, not the main weapon. As in doing so, an engineer wouldn’t be essentially forced to take kits instead of other utilities. Cause that is what happens when you balance the class over a supposedly optional utility.

Alas, i’ve said so many times my opinion on the matter – the current kit playstyle would be better suited as an elite spec, rather than being the core engineer whose every other elite spec must be based onto.

Its d/d cele ele complaints all over again huehue

Chaith.8256:

Enter and drop a kit while using Rocket Charge to abort it

Well my problem is that I play with a full gyro build and don’t come saying it is my own doom for not going with kits because at my level I win against all meta scrappers. I did even win once against 3 scrappers at once

I would like a way to stop the skill without “exploiting” :P

EdgarMTanaka.7291:

I would like a way to stop the skill without “exploiting” :P

The Engineer profession is unique in that Stow Weapon doesn’t work on the majority of the skill-pool of abilities. Drop bundle is a very common remedy to this

leviathan.2148:

choovanski.5462:

furthermore, as hammer is the weapon that needs no kits to supplement it, and rifle and pistols need kits its obvious that it is too strong. hammer is too good currently, and that is the main issue.

Why is it bad that it doesn’t need a kit to supplement it? It’s a good thing! We have also other skills than kits, you know? Kits are not our mechanic. It would surely be nice to see more builds using other utilities than kits.

uh… you missed the point

all our other weapons need to be combined with kits for the best effect. hammer is so strong it doesn’t need them. this means it’s significantly stronger than enfis other weapons.

I’m 100% pro kits and will never not run them. they are the appeal, flavor and advantage of the class.

choovanski.5462:

I’m 100% pro kits and will never not run them. they are the appeal, flavor and advantage of the class.

Don’t you think that it limits your choice? Most of the other utilities are quite useless in comparison with kits. It’s not about whether you like using kits. Engi should have also other viable utilities. Again, it’s not bad that hammer doesn’t need kits. It’s bad that other weapons do.

Bullcrap. Another kittened post. Finally I dont feel like crap playing engineer. Scrapper SHOULD NOT BE NERFED. We always get nerfs (do I have to remind stability eng nerf that we got anyway?). ENG is about survival so if we get nerft I want necro and war and guard and all other to get nerfs to their core game play style. Period.

Scrapper is my prey with marauder rifle build core engi. I can beat him with druid, I can beat him with warr(need some lucky yea..) so only one problem is, that ppl still don’t know how to beat him.

For me; scrapper is nearly optimal balance, but still, too much boring to play

mov.1246:

Scrapper got enough nerfs in the past, u just need to learn how to play against them.
Scrapper are weak against: condi, hard cc, kite. We must have a lot of blocks, invuln and evades because we lack condi cleanse, stability, armor, and range attacks.
The only thing that is patethic, is that you whine in the engi forum that we are too strong in your oppinion.

tldr; L2P

It’s funny reading this, I main a thief and read you saying you lack condi cleanse, stab, armor and range that’s why you need a lot of invuln, blocks etc
well i do not have any stab, bad condi cleanse, a 2 sec invuln noone takes, less armor and less range
so why don’t we buff thief to have all the sustain scrapper has? since that is your way of argumenting about the current state of scrapper ^^

No I’m not crying out for thief buffs but i think some of the ppl in this forum like to overdo it a bit, scrapper is a very forgiving class to play, like it or not, that is why there are so many around nowadays,
yes it is true that hammer is kinda the only good power based weapon, but it simply does too much too good, it basically combines defense in offense meaning you as opponent are screwed no matter what you do (at least as power based player, not talking condi pleb :P)
the risk reward system with the scrapper is mainly relativly low risk combined with high reward
Anyhow, i know that most ppl will disagree, not because I’m wrong, but because they don’t want there easy mode to be nerfed, which is fine
I’m just pointing out some sillyness in argumentation and stating my opinion

DHawk.2687:

mov.1246:

Scrapper got enough nerfs in the past, u just need to learn how to play against them.
Scrapper are weak against: condi, hard cc, kite. We must have a lot of blocks, invuln and evades because we lack condi cleanse, stability, armor, and range attacks.
The only thing that is patethic, is that you whine in the engi forum that we are too strong in your oppinion.

tldr; L2P

It’s funny reading this, I main a thief and read you saying you lack condi cleanse, stab, armor and range that’s why you need a lot of invuln, blocks etc
well i do not have any stab, bad condi cleanse, a 2 sec invuln noone takes, less armor and less range
so why don’t we buff thief to have all the sustain scrapper has? since that is your way of argumenting about the current state of scrapper ^^

Your arguments both dont hold. Scrapper doesnt have the burst Daredevil has, nor the mobility. Besides Daredevils are more about avoiding dmg, rather than blocking or healing it back up.
As weird as it sounds, Daredevils dont have less range than Scrapper.

Anyway, Scrapper needs a playstyle change to be a bit less good in 1 on 1 and a bit better in support.

Currently Scrapper is more allround with smaller weaknesses spread out, rather than really specialised in one area, with a big weakness in another.
They are build well for 1 on 1, which raises complaints.
Becoming more supportive and less powerful in 1 on 1 could fix issues, without nerfing them into useless.

Hammer needs a damage reduction. Ideally, you want a balance between rifle and hammer.

Current scrapper meta is going for full defensive/sustain traits/skills so the end result of being tanky is as expected. However, such spec can still do tons of damage is simply a bit too much.

leviathan.2148:

choovanski.5462:

I’m 100% pro kits and will never not run them. they are the appeal, flavor and advantage of the class.

Don’t you think that it limits your choice? Most of the other utilities are quite useless in comparison with kits. It’s not about whether you like using kits. Engi should have also other viable utilities. Again, it’s not bad that hammer doesn’t need kits. It’s bad that other weapons do.

I have to agree here. Toolbelt is our core mechanic and the kits, as good as they can be, are utilities. Having a weapon that’s good enough on it’s own to not need supplementing with a kit opens the class up for gadget, elixir, turret, and gyro heavy builds; All of which should be equally viable as a kit build.

Any scrapper that can’t roflstomp a DH is worth scrap.

Yashuoa.9527:

DHawk.2687:

mov.1246:

Scrapper got enough nerfs in the past, u just need to learn how to play against them.
Scrapper are weak against: condi, hard cc, kite. We must have a lot of blocks, invuln and evades because we lack condi cleanse, stability, armor, and range attacks.
The only thing that is patethic, is that you whine in the engi forum that we are too strong in your oppinion.

tldr; L2P

It’s funny reading this, I main a thief and read you saying you lack condi cleanse, stab, armor and range that’s why you need a lot of invuln, blocks etc
well i do not have any stab, bad condi cleanse, a 2 sec invuln noone takes, less armor and less range
so why don’t we buff thief to have all the sustain scrapper has? since that is your way of argumenting about the current state of scrapper ^^

Your arguments both dont hold. Scrapper doesnt have the burst Daredevil has, nor the mobility. Besides Daredevils are more about avoiding dmg, rather than blocking or healing it back up.
As weird as it sounds, Daredevils dont have less range than Scrapper.

Anyway, Scrapper needs a playstyle change to be a bit less good in 1 on 1 and a bit better in support.

Currently Scrapper is more allround with smaller weaknesses spread out, rather than really specialised in one area, with a big weakness in another.
They are build well for 1 on 1, which raises complaints.
Becoming more supportive and less powerful in 1 on 1 could fix issues, without nerfing them into useless.

scrapper might not have a DrD burst yes, but what good is a burst if the enemy player has 1 to 2 get out of jail free cards with invuln skills/autoproc invuln traits,
consistant high dmg with good tankyness if much more viable in 1v1 or outnumbered situations than 1 to max 3 good burst if you just end up doing 0 dmg due to silly autoprocs
and yes DrD has less range, unless you consider wasting all your gap closers at once for range, which still isn’t ranged dmg, it’s a gap closer
Hammer simply does too much dmg for what it does, there are enough engi players out there that aggree that the hammer makes every other set obsolete
I also like playing hammer, for the playstyle, but i feel cheesy as f doing so cause it’s simply easy mode on the scrapper, the dmg on most skills is very high yet the CD are really low, meaning you mostly don’t even need much more than the hammer and the heal turret to win a match
nerfing it’s dmg down and/or increasing CD would make rifle more viable as power set and open up more diversity amongs builds

Let’s remove all dmg from hammer. You know what? It offers too much defense, let’s remove also that. And while we’re at it, the hammer has too many skills anyway. 5? Are you kidding me? Too OP! 1 is enough – the skill that downs engi when people with l2p issue attack scrapper.

DHawk.2687:

cut

Whereas by “diversity” you mean “people will have to rely on kit even more because there aren’t other way to damage opponents once hammer gets nerfed”. No, thanks.
I agree with reducing self-sustain and changing it into group-support to make it less suited to 1vsX situation. But hammer being better than rifle in melee situations is perfectly logical. Rifle is a ranged weapon, and suited at keeping opponents at range most of the time (via net shot and overcharged shot). You need to be at close range only once every 10s (blunderbuss) or 20s (jump shot). But other than that, you do not need to be at melee range.
Whereas the hammer requires you to be constantly at melee range, and that in itself poses more risks – and thus must have appropriate rewards. Sure, the hammer does provide active defenses -the point of the elite spec is to make a mid-range fighter like the engineer better at melee range after all, and that requires staying alive to do it too – and rather telegraphed as they should be. Meaning that skilled opponents can work around them, assuming they aren’t just spamming skills at random (something that, i guess, is the actual issue at hand).
To sum it up, sure, the hammer is more suited than the rifle to defend a point. As a melee weapon, that’s perfectly logical. The mechanics don’t require anything else than staying inside a point and staying alive in a situation that puts you a melee range, so that’s a natural outcome. So, if you want to blame something…blame the mechanics, not the instruments provided.

scrapper needs buff and nerf but non can happen until the other professions are toned down specifically reaper, revenant,mesmer,druid and DH

leviathan.2148:

Let’s remove all dmg from hammer. You know what? It offers too much defense, let’s remove also that. And while we’re at it, the hammer has too many skills anyway. 5? Are you kidding me? Too OP! 1 is enough – the skill that downs engi when people with l2p issue attack scrapper.

Engineer should do 1 dmg per sec, its enough. I remember when they removed stability from Jug – it returned later. I have slowly enough these nerfs. ENG Is my only char and if they would keep nerfing it I will be useless like before and stop playing….

Try ingrish when you come to our forum and troll

I think its stealth and stealth alone that makes scraper as op as ppl are saying. I think stealth as is in GW2 on all classes who can use it is simply to powerful in a pvp setting becuse it kills effect skill of the player who must fight vs it. Stealth is far to safe and to hard to remove at best there are soft counters such as contdions dmg but most classes who have stealth can remove a lot of condtions with out trying. The hard counter of revile is to easy to wait out due to it not lasting all that long.

Stealth needs more of a tell and not a 100% invariability may be a slight shimmer when the stealth person is moving.

Not true. Stealth is qui pro quo – I play with the crate instead of it to get healing and dmg boost instead escaping option. Lets not nerf anything, as engineer was PATHETIC class for all this years, being kicked from teams in pve and pvp. Whoever thinks it needs nerf is kittened. I want warrior and necro to be nerfed as well, to much dmg, but hey this is they core play and we learned to counter them and now they are saying to lower scrapper survivability?

Why gave us hammer then? It needs direct contact so we need boost to surv, seriously there is lack of logical thinking on anet side.

DHawk.2687:

Yashuoa.9527:

DHawk.2687:

mov.1246:

Scrapper got enough nerfs in the past, u just need to learn how to play against them.
Scrapper are weak against: condi, hard cc, kite. We must have a lot of blocks, invuln and evades because we lack condi cleanse, stability, armor, and range attacks.
The only thing that is patethic, is that you whine in the engi forum that we are too strong in your oppinion.

tldr; L2P

It’s funny reading this, I main a thief and read you saying you lack condi cleanse, stab, armor and range that’s why you need a lot of invuln, blocks etc
well i do not have any stab, bad condi cleanse, a 2 sec invuln noone takes, less armor and less range
so why don’t we buff thief to have all the sustain scrapper has? since that is your way of argumenting about the current state of scrapper ^^

Your arguments both dont hold. Scrapper doesnt have the burst Daredevil has, nor the mobility. Besides Daredevils are more about avoiding dmg, rather than blocking or healing it back up.
As weird as it sounds, Daredevils dont have less range than Scrapper.

Anyway, Scrapper needs a playstyle change to be a bit less good in 1 on 1 and a bit better in support.

Currently Scrapper is more allround with smaller weaknesses spread out, rather than really specialised in one area, with a big weakness in another.
They are build well for 1 on 1, which raises complaints.
Becoming more supportive and less powerful in 1 on 1 could fix issues, without nerfing them into useless.

scrapper might not have a DrD burst yes, but what good is a burst if the enemy player has 1 to 2 get out of jail free cards with invuln skills/autoproc invuln traits,
consistant high dmg with good tankyness if much more viable in 1v1 or outnumbered situations than 1 to max 3 good burst if you just end up doing 0 dmg due to silly autoprocs
and yes DrD has less range, unless you consider wasting all your gap closers at once for range, which still isn’t ranged dmg, it’s a gap closer
Hammer simply does too much dmg for what it does, there are enough engi players out there that aggree that the hammer makes every other set obsolete
I also like playing hammer, for the playstyle, but i feel cheesy as f doing so cause it’s simply easy mode on the scrapper, the dmg on most skills is very high yet the CD are really low, meaning you mostly don’t even need much more than the hammer and the heal turret to win a match
nerfing it’s dmg down and/or increasing CD would make rifle more viable as power set and open up more diversity amongs builds

Scrappers usually dont play with Elixir S on their utility bar + Elixir S trait, so they wont have those 2 invulns that you are talking about.
Some play with neither. Sure it can be nice vs power dmg, but you cant use any abilities while its active and if you have a condi bomb on you, than you will die while the invuln is active.

Also the strengths I mentioned from Daredevil can be useful (not only their burst but their mobility and +1 function too).
Not everyone has invulns and even if they do, bursting someone so that it procs is useful too (nor is the fight over when it procs).

Regarding less or more range. Scrappers have less gap closers than Daredevils and less ranged dmging abilities.

If you dont need more than the hammer and healturret to win a fight, than you fight people who really have no clue how to fight a scrapper. I think that you are exaggarating.

Scrappers are more allround with strengths and weaknesses spread out, rather than few big strengths and few big weaknesses (as some other builds).
So its less obvious how to tackle them. They are good in 1 on 1 (without dominating most/without losing hard to most. Usually slight advantage, slight disadvantage or stalemate), which probably raises complaints.
They have never been stacked or overly represented on tournies, so they cant be way to good either.

Making scrapper a bit more about groupsupport and a bit less strong in 1 on 1 could be good. That would keep scrapper good while weakening it 1 on 1 a bit.
Meaning it doesnt need a nerf, it needs a bit of a playstyle shift.

There are some others like reapers, druids and daredevils for example. who are just as good as scrapper. What about those?
Also when changing/nerfing a class, you have to keep the other classes in mind too. Changing/nerfing one class can make another class to strong.
A build can sorta keep another class their build in check. Thinking DH and Tempest with group reflects previous patch for example. As in if counters to a class get nerfed, that class can get to strong, without being changed itself. Or the other way around, a class becoming useful, because it counters a popular build.

When it comes to nerfing scrapper it will require a great deal of care to not just kill the whole spec. Possible changes:
Possibly a very small (10% most) damage reduction to hammer.
Definitely imo there needs to be an increase in cd times to make hammer a bit less on demand everything cause 4 sec cd’s and such but that goes for most everything in HoT.
Remove triple leap finisher and just have 1 with the 3 evades for a still extremely useful skill without allowing for full heal combos on demand.
Make sneak gyro uncastable when cc’d so that it is a tactical tool for positioning and for opening, not an “oh kitten I forgot how to play intelligently” button.

Shaving some of the other especs should give a little more room for nerfing anything that may be over the top on scrapper but atm that’s really all I can see that would avoid destroying the whole spec while stopping it from being the be all end all for pvp builds.

And then there’s the change that needs to happen game wide with the removal of auto invuln procs with a universal damage reduction to make 1 shot impossible thereby eliminating the need for the existence of auto procs.

The issue right now isn’t scrapper being blatantly op and needing to be mega nerfed to save the game. The issue is that nerfs need to happen game wide to remedy the power creep from HoT so it’s challenging to find out what’s actually op because compared to vanilla it may be op (difficult to tell if it’s just a counter or if it’s op because there’s no defined benchmark for balancing) but then compared to the other especs it may be trash. Anet will need a major balance update that addresses HoT balance issues overall to even have a chance at balancing. It’s not only scrapper performing well so don’t tunnel vision yourself into believing that.

Yashuoa.9527:

DHawk.2687:

Yashuoa.9527:

DHawk.2687:

mov.1246:

Scrapper got enough nerfs in the past, u just need to learn how to play against them.
Scrapper are weak against: condi, hard cc, kite. We must have a lot of blocks, invuln and evades because we lack condi cleanse, stability, armor, and range attacks.
The only thing that is patethic, is that you whine in the engi forum that we are too strong in your oppinion.

tldr; L2P

It’s funny reading this, I main a thief and read you saying you lack condi cleanse, stab, armor and range that’s why you need a lot of invuln, blocks etc
well i do not have any stab, bad condi cleanse, a 2 sec invuln noone takes, less armor and less range
so why don’t we buff thief to have all the sustain scrapper has? since that is your way of argumenting about the current state of scrapper ^^

Your arguments both dont hold. Scrapper doesnt have the burst Daredevil has, nor the mobility. Besides Daredevils are more about avoiding dmg, rather than blocking or healing it back up.
As weird as it sounds, Daredevils dont have less range than Scrapper.

Anyway, Scrapper needs a playstyle change to be a bit less good in 1 on 1 and a bit better in support.

Currently Scrapper is more allround with smaller weaknesses spread out, rather than really specialised in one area, with a big weakness in another.
They are build well for 1 on 1, which raises complaints.
Becoming more supportive and less powerful in 1 on 1 could fix issues, without nerfing them into useless.

scrapper might not have a DrD burst yes, but what good is a burst if the enemy player has 1 to 2 get out of jail free cards with invuln skills/autoproc invuln traits,
consistant high dmg with good tankyness if much more viable in 1v1 or outnumbered situations than 1 to max 3 good burst if you just end up doing 0 dmg due to silly autoprocs
and yes DrD has less range, unless you consider wasting all your gap closers at once for range, which still isn’t ranged dmg, it’s a gap closer
Hammer simply does too much dmg for what it does, there are enough engi players out there that aggree that the hammer makes every other set obsolete
I also like playing hammer, for the playstyle, but i feel cheesy as f doing so cause it’s simply easy mode on the scrapper, the dmg on most skills is very high yet the CD are really low, meaning you mostly don’t even need much more than the hammer and the heal turret to win a match
nerfing it’s dmg down and/or increasing CD would make rifle more viable as power set and open up more diversity amongs builds

Scrappers usually dont play with Elixir S on their utility bar + Elixir S trait, so they wont have those 2 invulns that you are talking about.
Some play with neither. Sure it can be nice vs power dmg, but you cant use any abilities while its active and if you have a condi bomb on you, than you will die while the invuln is active.

Also the strengths I mentioned from Daredevil can be useful (not only their burst but their mobility and +1 function too).
Not everyone has invulns and even if they do, bursting someone so that it procs is useful too (nor is the fight over when it procs).

Regarding less or more range. Scrappers have less gap closers than Daredevils and less ranged dmging abilities.

If you dont need more than the hammer and healturret to win a fight, than you fight people who really have no clue how to fight a scrapper. I think that you are exaggarating.

Scrappers are more allround with strengths and weaknesses spread out, rather than few big strengths and few big weaknesses (as some other builds).
So its less obvious how to tackle them. They are good in 1 on 1 (without dominating most/without losing hard to most. Usually slight advantage, slight disadvantage or stalemate), which probably raises complaints.
They have never been stacked or overly represented on tournies, so they cant be way to good either.

Making scrapper a bit more about groupsupport and a bit less strong in 1 on 1 could be good. That would keep scrapper good while weakening it 1 on 1 a bit.
Meaning it doesnt need a nerf, it needs a bit of a playstyle shift.

There are some others like reapers, druids and daredevils for example. who are just as good as scrapper. What about those?
Also when changing/nerfing a class, you have to keep the other classes in mind too. Changing/nerfing one class can make another class to strong.
A build can sorta keep another class their build in check. Thinking DH and Tempest with group reflects previous patch for example. As in if counters to a class get nerfed, that class can get to strong, without being changed itself. Or the other way around, a class becoming useful, because it counters a popular build.

to be honest the only really strong thing about reapers are their shroud, if you can kyte/survive the shroud the necro has 0 chance
Druids healing and perma daze is a bit off the top i agree, needs a bit of adjustment, plus the new pets are just stupidly strong, most druids beat other ppl in 1v1 not because of their skills, no because they just spam heals and let their pets do all the dmg
Daredevil, i mean come on, i strong hit and the DrD is so low he has to back out and reset or might even be dead, by your logic that hammer is a close range melee weapon it needs sustain and survivability then why are thieves so squishy (I know why I’m just making a point here)
I think the biggest error Anet ever made was to put invuln skills in this game, the warri i can understand, he should have endure pain as a skill, not trait, just like the guards renewed focus is fine since you can’t attack or do anything while invuln, but every other classes invuln or “get out of jail free” card/trait should be removed and the power creep tuned done, adjust skills to be balanced in dmg and we would have a more healthy skill based game
but that ain’t ever gonna happen

Scrapper isn’t the problem. The problem is the game mod, spvp is only stay and hold little points. It is logical that a class that is designed to survive long time on melee range is on advantage here…
If anet really decide to nerf scrapper AGAIN, then all wvw and pve scrappers will play base engi. Scrapper have one big weakness – kiting. We MUST be at our target.

its not hard to keep yourself from being kited between hammer 3, 5, super speed, and stability…

I just compare with base engi

its not a weakness though, its mitigated by about 5 things.

its like if a rifle engi takes toolkit and you say kiting is a weakness because toolkit is melee. that makes no sense.

They are other classes that need nerf, scrapper was nerfed enough so anet should really think this through. For me scrapper saved the class – if not this I wouldnt be playing at all. I have only 1 char, and limited time (there is more ppl like me), and I play engie from release…

why do you only have 1 toon when you have 5 slots? :/

insanemaniac.2456:

why do you only have 1 toon when you have 5 slots? :/

No time my friend, no time. Engie was my fav. I was playing since beginning when it was very weak, constantly nerfed down, kicked from dungeons for being pathetic etc. Just used to it, I had every build ever posted Loved it to much man, now with scrapper I am really satisfied. Until nerfs will go down. Why they dont nerf necro or warrior – no idea. Engie surv is based on traits and it should stay this way, scrapper is very balanced right now – no need to nerf because some freaking morons dont find it easy to kill like it was before….

DHawk.2687:

Yashuoa.9527:

DHawk.2687:

mov.1246:

Scrapper got enough nerfs in the past, u just need to learn how to play against them.
Scrapper are weak against: condi, hard cc, kite. We must have a lot of blocks, invuln and evades because we lack condi cleanse, stability, armor, and range attacks.
The only thing that is patethic, is that you whine in the engi forum that we are too strong in your oppinion.

tldr; L2P

It’s funny reading this, I main a thief and read you saying you lack condi cleanse, stab, armor and range that’s why you need a lot of invuln, blocks etc
well i do not have any stab, bad condi cleanse, a 2 sec invuln noone takes, less armor and less range
so why don’t we buff thief to have all the sustain scrapper has? since that is your way of argumenting about the current state of scrapper ^^

Your arguments both dont hold. Scrapper doesnt have the burst Daredevil has, nor the mobility. Besides Daredevils are more about avoiding dmg, rather than blocking or healing it back up.
As weird as it sounds, Daredevils dont have less range than Scrapper.

Anyway, Scrapper needs a playstyle change to be a bit less good in 1 on 1 and a bit better in support.

Currently Scrapper is more allround with smaller weaknesses spread out, rather than really specialised in one area, with a big weakness in another.
They are build well for 1 on 1, which raises complaints.
Becoming more supportive and less powerful in 1 on 1 could fix issues, without nerfing them into useless.

scrapper might not have a DrD burst yes, but what good is a burst if the enemy player has 1 to 2 get out of jail free cards with invuln skills/autoproc invuln traits,
consistant high dmg with good tankyness if much more viable in 1v1 or outnumbered situations than 1 to max 3 good burst if you just end up doing 0 dmg due to silly autoprocs
and yes DrD has less range, unless you consider wasting all your gap closers at once for range, which still isn’t ranged dmg, it’s a gap closer
Hammer simply does too much dmg for what it does, there are enough engi players out there that aggree that the hammer makes every other set obsolete
I also like playing hammer, for the playstyle, but i feel cheesy as f doing so cause it’s simply easy mode on the scrapper, the dmg on most skills is very high yet the CD are really low, meaning you mostly don’t even need much more than the hammer and the heal turret to win a match
nerfing it’s dmg down and/or increasing CD would make rifle more viable as power set and open up more diversity amongs builds

daredevil is as easy as running staff+ bounding dodger that way you yank up to 3k hp By Dodging per dodge daredevil’s high mobility alone is a counter against hammer scrappers as long you have even one stun break they wont lock you down unless you are simply bad

thief does have cleanses if you dont know them that isnt scrapper’s fault
thief has a 15 second cooldown block and 2 seconds absolute invuln 2s evade > invuln as it ignores both direct and condi skills .

your question goes backwards to you what good is a defensive profession and build if it can be burst instantly like any other glass build?

mov.1246:

If anet really decide to nerf scrapper AGAIN, then all wvw and pve scrappers will play base engi.

No they wont lol, (imo) a large portion of the wvw scrappers are just some bandwagoners who play scrapper because its strong and easy to play. Where were all those engineers before HOT was released?

Rational reaction to a nerf demand is rare on this forum.
However a nerf to rapid regeneration is sorely needed. Either that or hammer needa a slight damage nerf and fewer leaps on 3.

This doesn’t mean that other classes don’t need nerfing too, if it were not for the current god tier on scrapper we would have no way to deal with necros at all.

Kaizoku.1298:

So you are saying eles/tempests should be nerfed too ?

This made me laugh. Ele is in a goodspot i thi k. To have the sustain they have now they need to invest in stats, ckerics, scrapper doesn’t and that is where the problem is.

Yashuoa.9527:

DHawk.2687:

mov.1246:

Scrapper got enough nerfs in the past, u just need to learn how to play against them.
Scrapper are weak against: condi, hard cc, kite. We must have a lot of blocks, invuln and evades because we lack condi cleanse, stability, armor, and range attacks.
The only thing that is patethic, is that you whine in the engi forum that we are too strong in your oppinion.

tldr; L2P

It’s funny reading this, I main a thief and read you saying you lack condi cleanse, stab, armor and range that’s why you need a lot of invuln, blocks etc
well i do not have any stab, bad condi cleanse, a 2 sec invuln noone takes, less armor and less range
so why don’t we buff thief to have all the sustain scrapper has? since that is your way of argumenting about the current state of scrapper ^^

Your arguments both dont hold. Scrapper doesnt have the burst Daredevil has, nor the mobility. Besides Daredevils are more about avoiding dmg, rather than blocking or healing it back up.
As weird as it sounds, Daredevils dont have less range than Scrapper.

Anyway, Scrapper needs a playstyle change to be a bit less good in 1 on 1 and a bit better in support.

Currently Scrapper is more allround with smaller weaknesses spread out, rather than really specialised in one area, with a big weakness in another.
They are build well for 1 on 1, which raises complaints.
Becoming more supportive and less powerful in 1 on 1 could fix issues, without nerfing them into useless.

Less burst? Are you sure? Go check out my explosives scrapper on metabattle.com. Tell me we don’t have vurst after than.
Less mobility, sure, less burst? God no.

Novuake.2691:

Rational reaction to a nerf demand is rare on this forum.
However a nerf to rapid regeneration is sorely needed. Either that or hammer needa a slight damage nerf and fewer leaps on 3.

This doesn’t mean that other classes don’t need nerfing too, if it were not for the current god tier on scrapper we would have no way to deal with necros at all.

No its not needed. This pathetic posts about nerfing some class just because someone is to weak to defeat are getting tedious. If scrapper will get nerfed with its core survival abilities (which is needed for medium armor class , being created for medium range combat) then warrior should get nerf with dmg or guardian with boosts etc. These are their core play abilities (the way the class should be functioning) and this would be only fair to do. Should I remind again how juggernaut was nerfed and few other scrapper skills as well? Before scrapper engineer was pathetic, and now when its as easy to play as other button hitter classes – morons that cant take it are writing about nerfs. One more – if scrapper should be weaker in survival why giving him hammer at all?

Engie is part of the PvP meta for more than 2 years non-stop and was occasionally so strong, that some pro teams were using 2 of them. Calling this pathetic and putting current scrapper on the same stage as guard or warrior when it comes to the need of nerfes, makes it impossible to take you serios.

Rezzet.3614:

DHawk.2687:

Yashuoa.9527:

DHawk.2687:

mov.1246:

Scrapper got enough nerfs in the past, u just need to learn how to play against them.
Scrapper are weak against: condi, hard cc, kite. We must have a lot of blocks, invuln and evades because we lack condi cleanse, stability, armor, and range attacks.
The only thing that is patethic, is that you whine in the engi forum that we are too strong in your oppinion.

tldr; L2P

It’s funny reading this, I main a thief and read you saying you lack condi cleanse, stab, armor and range that’s why you need a lot of invuln, blocks etc
well i do not have any stab, bad condi cleanse, a 2 sec invuln noone takes, less armor and less range
so why don’t we buff thief to have all the sustain scrapper has? since that is your way of argumenting about the current state of scrapper ^^

Your arguments both dont hold. Scrapper doesnt have the burst Daredevil has, nor the mobility. Besides Daredevils are more about avoiding dmg, rather than blocking or healing it back up.
As weird as it sounds, Daredevils dont have less range than Scrapper.

Anyway, Scrapper needs a playstyle change to be a bit less good in 1 on 1 and a bit better in support.

Currently Scrapper is more allround with smaller weaknesses spread out, rather than really specialised in one area, with a big weakness in another.
They are build well for 1 on 1, which raises complaints.
Becoming more supportive and less powerful in 1 on 1 could fix issues, without nerfing them into useless.

scrapper might not have a DrD burst yes, but what good is a burst if the enemy player has 1 to 2 get out of jail free cards with invuln skills/autoproc invuln traits,
consistant high dmg with good tankyness if much more viable in 1v1 or outnumbered situations than 1 to max 3 good burst if you just end up doing 0 dmg due to silly autoprocs
and yes DrD has less range, unless you consider wasting all your gap closers at once for range, which still isn’t ranged dmg, it’s a gap closer
Hammer simply does too much dmg for what it does, there are enough engi players out there that aggree that the hammer makes every other set obsolete
I also like playing hammer, for the playstyle, but i feel cheesy as f doing so cause it’s simply easy mode on the scrapper, the dmg on most skills is very high yet the CD are really low, meaning you mostly don’t even need much more than the hammer and the heal turret to win a match
nerfing it’s dmg down and/or increasing CD would make rifle more viable as power set and open up more diversity amongs builds

daredevil is as easy as running staff+ bounding dodger that way you yank up to 3k hp By Dodging per dodge daredevil’s high mobility alone is a counter against hammer scrappers as long you have even one stun break they wont lock you down unless you are simply bad

thief does have cleanses if you dont know them that isnt scrapper’s fault
thief has a 15 second cooldown block and 2 seconds absolute invuln 2s evade > invuln as it ignores both direct and condi skills .

your question goes backwards to you what good is a defensive profession and build if it can be burst instantly like any other glass build?

1. if you pick bounded dodger as thief your mobility is 0
2. heal on dodge has a ICD and it’s not 3k hpa thiefs stunbreak is at least 50sec cd, least is 40, how long is hammer #5 #3 cd? don’t give me that kitten easy
3. yes thief has a nerfed cleanse on shadow arts, a trait line that makes no sense to take anymore, and it only takes away dmg dealing condis, which is ok in theory but horrible in practice, can’t remove vuln, weakness, slow etc.
4. Acrobatic is still a trait line that makes no real sense to take, especially because it’s basically a weak DrD tree, meaning if you take both you are missing dps or utility, if you take on of them there is no reason to take Acro over DrD as power build
5. even if you would take Acrobatic, noone except for noobs that instant die all the time take the invuln trait, hell i haven’t seen it on a thief 1 ever since it came out, why? because it’s useless, if you take acro, you take the condi cleanse that cleanses when you take dmg below 70%hp with a high icd, —> horrible cleanse against condi heavy builds
6. as DrD you have bandit’s defense which is a 1,5s block on 15s CD, a skill that is very situational and therefore isn’t often used or successfull, especially considering the amount of unblockable skills in the game you mostly don’t even succeed in the block, and furthermore you are acting like 1 single block on 15s cd is gonna make thief wreck other classes, scrapper has 2 blocks, 1 that even does dmg while blocking, what was the CD on those?? :P

the hammer on scrapper needs adjustment, the CD are too low/the dmg is too high
and it’s that way on porpouse, so anet can sell more copies of the DLC, which one of you all hasn’t noticed that EVERY elite is better than the base class, furthermore the elite spec line makes 1-3 of the other lines of the class totally irrelevant, e.g. thief, DrD makes acro and shadow arts basically useless
every single elite needs to be tuned down

UmbraNoctis.1907:

Engie is part of the PvP meta for more than 2 years non-stop and was occasionally so strong, that some pro teams were using 2 of them. Calling this pathetic and putting current scrapper on the same stage as guard or warrior when it comes to the need of nerfes, makes it impossible to take you serios.

really now? can we get some evidence on pro teams not on ly having 2 engineers but owning their game victories to said engineers now ?

if i recall anything what teams usually had was 2 eles

hell if anything i think 2 engineers are all the engineers that play in pro pvp and the only one i ve seen has been five gauge lol , but i do agree putting scrapper in the same stage as dragon hunter is absurd scrapper needs some serious buffing to catch up to DH cheapness

Rezzet.3614:

UmbraNoctis.1907:

Engie is part of the PvP meta for more than 2 years non-stop and was occasionally so strong, that some pro teams were using 2 of them. Calling this pathetic and putting current scrapper on the same stage as guard or warrior when it comes to the need of nerfes, makes it impossible to take you serios.

really now? can we get some evidence on pro teams not on ly having 2 engineers but owning their game victories to said engineers now ?

if i recall anything what teams usually had was 2 eles

hell if anything i think 2 engineers are all the engineers that play in pro pvp and the only one i ve seen has been five gauge lol , but i do agree putting scrapper in the same stage as dragon hunter is absurd scrapper needs some serious buffing to catch up to DH cheapness

True. Sometimes I think all of this warriors, guardians etc will be satisfied when scrapper will have 1 skill only. Otherwise – it will be OP all the time. Every class has some OP skills, Necro dmg output – conditions etc. Warrior the same. Nerf them first, and do not touch scrapper as it is in perfect balance at the moment imho. I play a lot of pvp and sometimes i win a lot , sometimes I die but its always balanced… Enough said – no nerfs, we got them a lot recently.

Rezzet.3614:

really now? can we get some evidence on pro teams not on ly having 2 engineers but owning their game victories to said engineers now ?

if i recall anything what teams usually had was 2 eles

hell if anything i think 2 engineers are all the engineers that play in pro pvp and the only one i ve seen has been five gauge lol , but i do agree putting scrapper in the same stage as dragon hunter is absurd scrapper needs some serious buffing to catch up to DH cheapness

The Abjured won WTS 1 with double engi. Cheese Mode won Go4 Cups with double engi. Just to name the two most famous examples. A few other teams were running 2 engies too back then and many teams had at least one.

Just check https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SLrzstIN0s&list=PLDCvogxNKN3mkRmRCNMj96JAfVS7oIytH for example and tell me, how many tournament finals had no engi player. I doubt you will find many (I’m too lazy for an exact research).

If you think, engi was weak in the past or scrapper is weaker than warrior or DH right now, then sorry, but you know nothing about balance.

Apart from that, past performance of a class shouldn’t justify current balance issues and therefore doesn’t matter when it comes to buff or nerf requests (i didn’t brought up engi’s past because i want them to get nerfed, just to correct those false statements).

Is this thread still a thing? Nothing to see here, move along.