Guild Wars 2

Probably one of my biggest laments about the scrapper is that the auto attack for the hammer will never be useful. The hammer adds plenty of utility skills, but the auto attack itself is just plain sub-par. This is written from a PVE perspective mostly.

For this analysis, I will work with the following basis. These numbers will be acquired via the tooltip values when standing in the mists, while wearing no equipment that boosts or alter stats, and with no traits that alter or manipulate stats or weapons. The damage will be rounded to the nearest whole number, where the buffs or conditions will be rounded to the nearest 1/10th. With that out of the way, here are the numbers:

Hammer Auto: (313 + 313 + 391) / 2.75 = 370 DPS. 5.8 might, 5.8 vuln x1.1 damage for traits.
Bomb Auto: (444) / 0.84 = 529 DPS. x1.1 damage from traits. 6 vuln from traits. 2.14 bleed ticks per second from traits.
Flame Jet: (890) / 2.57 = 346 DPS. 0.8 burn ticks per second. 5 might
Grenade: (117 × 3) / 1 = 351 DPS. x1.1 damage from traits. 15 vuln from traits. 5.4 bleed ticks per second from traits.
Hip Shot: (266) / 0.764 from traits = 348 DPS.
Tool Kit: (284 + 284 + 622) /3.23 = 368 DPS. x1.1 damage from traits. 7.4 vuln.

I currently have no animation time for Mortar Shot. Complete scaled DPS is as follows. Note: “In a group” means that any benefit from might and vulnerability essentially don’t exist, as the group will handle those.

Hammer: 407 in a group. 459 solo.
Bomb: 582 in a group. 617 solo. 2.14 bleed ticks either way.
Flame Jet: 346 in a group. 366 solo. 0.8 burn ticks either way.
Grenade: 386 in a group. 444 solo. 5.4 bleed ticks either way.
Hip Shot: 348 either way
Tool Kit: 405 in a group. 435 solo.

So basically, the Hammer auto is beat out by the bomb auto no matter what, the grenade auto if you have shrapnel, and is roughly on par with just swinging a wrench with the tool kit. So the hammer is nothing special.

However, it is “nothing special” in a painful way. First, the bomb auto serves the exact same function, but much better. 42% more damage, 360 degree attack radius, no reliance on completing skill chains to maximize damage, and it still stacks vulnerability for the group. It is available regardless if you have an elite spec or not.

Second, is that the hammer auto does nothing special. Grenades and hip shot, those are ranged attacks that can be done from afar. The tool kit, for all its inferiority, still cripples and does that silly “repair turrets” thing. The flamethrower can self stack a load of might with the right traits, and is excellent for tagging mobs in zergs due to its wide cone attack. But the hammer’s gimmick is that it slowly stacks a small amount of might and vuln in a lopsided way, and nothing else.

This means that hammer auto (and also, by extension, the tool kit) are wasted space. They are skills that have very little purpose in existing, serving only to be that weird thing your character does while you wait for useful skills to be off cooldown.

So, my suggestion, is simply as follows:

#1: Increase the damage from for every skill in the hammer auto attack chain by 20%. It is still weaker than the bomb, but now we at least have a reason not to grenade enemies in the face on a power build.

#2: Increase the damage of Smack and Whack from the Tool Kit’s auto attack chain by 42%. The damage is way too end-loaded on this skill set.

Wahoo!

Just gonna leave this here for you.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/All-Skills-Damage-for-Power-and-Condi-3/first#post5996853

Those are all skills used by the current strongest (damage wise) raid builds, calculated with raid envoirment values.

I think toolkit should apply weakness rather than buffing the damage. It should be annoying, not dangerious. However they could increase the attack speed of the last hit in the chain, it’s a bit too slow.

Hammer is totally fine imo. 2nd best aa we have and also grants might and causes vulnerability. It’s pretty strong, I’m happy with it.

Greez!
- Ziggy

if autos do more damage than skills that “only” do damage, then there is no point to having those skills. yes the auto sucks, and the reason is that you can almost always be doing something better, unlike other classes where you get stuck on a weapon and cant just do other things while your hard hitter(s) recharge.

that said, i really really hate that toolkit 3rd auto is single target.

insanemaniac.2456:

if autos do more damage than skills that “only” do damage, then there is no point to having those skills. yes the auto sucks, and the reason is that you can almost always be doing something better, unlike other classes where you get stuck on a weapon and cant just do other things while your hard hitter(s) recharge.

that said, i really really hate that toolkit 3rd auto is single target.

#1: My suggestions would not make the autos do more damage than “damage only” skills.
#2: The fact that you have to be playing Schubert on your keyboard to play the engineer is bad design. If the engineer isn’t supposed to be using an auto attack, then why don’t they just remove the auto attacks for skills that are actually useful?
#3: If your assertion is that the Engineer should never be auto attacking, then buffing auto attacking would mean that the peak performance of the engineer wouldn’t increase. It would just allow for a more relaxed playstyle.

Xyonon.3987:

Wahoo!

Just gonna leave this here for you.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/All-Skills-Damage-for-Power-and-Condi-3/first#post5996853

Those are all skills used by the current strongest (damage wise) raid builds, calculated with raid envoirment values.

---

I think toolkit should apply weakness rather than buffing the damage. It should be annoying, not dangerious. However they could increase the attack speed of the last hit in the chain, it’s a bit too slow.

Hammer is totally fine imo. 2nd best aa we have and also grants might and causes vulnerability. It’s pretty strong, I’m happy with it.

Greez!
- Ziggy

Here’s the thing: The hammer is totally “not fine”. And I’m not leaving this up to opinion. Over the past day or so I cataloged the base damage done by auto attacks of the various weapons of every class I play. Here were the results:

Guardian: (note, passive burn is always an effect).
Longbow 317
Greatsword: 438. 1.05 damage mod. 2-6 might.
Sword: 441 15% crit chance mod
Mace: 346. 15% crit chance mod (though technically the symbol increases this to 382)
Hammer: 444. 506 with Zeal trait line. 2 vuln.
Scepter: 296. Orb of Wrath increases this to 394. 15% crit rate mod.

Revenant:
Staff: 426.
Sword: 477. 1.1 damage mod. 8.8 vuln.
Hammer: 297

Thief:
Staff: 595. 15 Vuln
Dagger: 582, 3.57 poison
Sword: 548
Pistol: 217
Shortbow: 206, x 3 against multiple targets.

Necro:
Life Rend: 376. 433 w/ traits. 18 or 20.7 might. Cap invuln with trait.
Dagger: 474.
Greatsword: 469.
Axe: 288. 1.1 damage mod.
Life Blast: 355 at close range.

Mesmer:
Sword: 379 w/o boon. 4 vuln. 319 w/ boon.
Greatsword: 264 at max range.

Elementalist:
Fireball + Lavafont: 512. 1.1 damage mod
Lightning Whip: 472. 9% crit chance mod.

So, taken among all the melee weapons, the Engineer Hammer is 3rd place for worst auto attack, ahead of mesmer sword, maybe guardian’s mace sans burning. I haven’t checked Ranger or Warrior, but I am fairly confident it is below those as well.

Here’s the thing, the “weaker” auto attacks all do something. Guard Mace heals for quite a bit. Mesmer Sword tears boons away. The Engi Hammer auto just does damage, and the small amount of might/vuln is just a further damage bonus that’s meaningless if other teammates cover it for you.

The engineer isn’t exactly swimming in additional modifiers, either. You’ll get a situational 5%, a 7%, that fluctuating “based on condi” trait, and some critical chance modifiers that basically every class has. I’m not going to lie: playing my scrapper feels like crap right now, even using the build that you’ve posted. I’m so busy swapping through kits just to do damage that I have barely any utility. Even when playing my mesmer I feel like I’m having more of an impact, because even if my personal damage is low it is worth it to see all my teammates turn into chainsaws when I give them 24 seconds of quickness and cut their cooldowns.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

insanemaniac.2456:

if autos do more damage than skills that “only” do damage, then there is no point to having those skills. yes the auto sucks, and the reason is that you can almost always be doing something better, unlike other classes where you get stuck on a weapon and cant just do other things while your hard hitter(s) recharge.

that said, i really really hate that toolkit 3rd auto is single target.

#1: My suggestions would not make the autos do more damage than “damage only” skills.
#2: The fact that you have to be playing Schubert on your keyboard to play the engineer is bad design. If the engineer isn’t supposed to be using an auto attack, then why don’t they just remove the auto attacks for skills that are actually useful?
#3: If your assertion is that the Engineer should never be auto attacking, then buffing auto attacking would mean that the peak performance of the engineer wouldn’t increase. It would just allow for a more relaxed playstyle.

there are 8 other classes to play that are more relaxed. its unfortunate they feel mostly like cliche fantasy instead of cliche scifi, imo :/

idk, when someone makes a thread saying “i dont want the engineer to be what the devs seem to want it to be” it just seems kinda… like it aint gonna happen. plus, if you dont wanna play piano, grab dat flamethrower build and turn on dat autotargeting.

insanemaniac.2456:

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

insanemaniac.2456:

if autos do more damage than skills that “only” do damage, then there is no point to having those skills. yes the auto sucks, and the reason is that you can almost always be doing something better, unlike other classes where you get stuck on a weapon and cant just do other things while your hard hitter(s) recharge.

that said, i really really hate that toolkit 3rd auto is single target.

#1: My suggestions would not make the autos do more damage than “damage only” skills.
#2: The fact that you have to be playing Schubert on your keyboard to play the engineer is bad design. If the engineer isn’t supposed to be using an auto attack, then why don’t they just remove the auto attacks for skills that are actually useful?
#3: If your assertion is that the Engineer should never be auto attacking, then buffing auto attacking would mean that the peak performance of the engineer wouldn’t increase. It would just allow for a more relaxed playstyle.

there are 8 other classes to play that are more relaxed. its unfortunate they feel mostly like cliche fantasy instead of cliche scifi, imo :/

idk, when someone makes a thread saying “i dont want the engineer to be what the devs seem to want it to be” it just seems kinda… like it aint gonna happen. plus, if you dont wanna play piano, grab dat flamethrower build and turn on dat autotargeting.

It has been my experience that the devs are somewhat aimless regarding class ideals, and will periodically make dumb decisions regarding balance. But, since you remain convinced that the hammer and tool kit can’t have higher auto damage because of power cosmic or something like that, let me rephrase this in a different way:

Who loses? If the hammer and the tool kit get a 20% stronger overall auto attack, who is the person who loses?

In PVP? No one loses. The players who lose to engi are losing because of the combination of “damage skill”, and raising the auto damage of the hammer/toolkit to a passable level isn’t suddenly going to make more people die. The peak engi stays the peak engi.

In PVE? No one loses. So people who have hand health problems ore aren’t good at DPS calcs do a bit more damage. This is to the benefit of people as a whole, not to their detriment.

I certainly know who wins. Players who aren’t good at mashing their keyboard. Players who would like a less active playstyle with their class. Players who would like to use a utility set other than bomb-grenade-elixiir-mortar. Players who run alternate builds than the standard meta. Players who play along side of those players who fit into the previous categories.

So, if nobody loses, and everybody wins, then why hasn’t this happened yet?

Because people are somehow convinced we must be a piano class, despite not even being rewarded properly even when we play like one, just due of some utilities that should be optional but instead end up impacting any single balance decision of the whole class just by existing.
And because they don’t balance different modes properly, so whatever ends up working nicely in a small circle, usually in a 1vsX setting, is deemed good or even overpowered in any possible situation. Even if it isn’t. The scrapper is a fine example in that regard: in PvE it is frowned upon, yet people want it nerfed due to PvP. Whereas the condi engi spec is widely accepted instead.

It is working as intended.

First, bomb auto attack has the highest coefficient in the game for an auto so this doesn’t even require discussion. I wouldn’t have even brought it up.

Second, comparing secondary effects of traits is ineffective. If we were to do that your analysis is worthless since Hammer literally gives itself (when traited) quickness boosting it’s own DPS by 50% (it’s a little higher, actually). So does flamejet when you take Juggernaut. You are selectively choosing Shrapnel as a “natural decision” in the bomb trait line but ignoring many other traits that make weapons viable.

The analysis is just bad altogether.

I can just repeat myself Blood Red Arachnid.2493 – hammer auto is not strong, but it’s good enough because the whole kit is super strong. It’s not supposed to wreck.

+ what DGraves said.

Applied Force works on everything, though. And those needed might stacks will be provided by someone else in party/raid settings, either way. So the end result is that you’ll still be using that quickness with bomb autoattacks, rather than hammer ones.
Yet again, people are convinced that the hammer is so strong, despite no one actually using it in any optimized setting. Go figure.

Xyonon.3987:

I can just repeat myself Blood Red Arachnid.2493 – hammer auto is not strong, but it’s good enough because the whole kit is super strong. It’s not supposed to wreck.

+ what DGraves said.

#1: DGraves is factually wrong in nearly everything he says. It is best to just ignore him.
#2: What you’re saying doesn’t make sense. The hammer auto being poor is not somehow justified by the weapon having decent utility.

He sometimes talks garbage wich doesn’t mean he always does – like pretty much everyone here. I don’t care who says something, I only care about what one says.

btt: Sure it makes sense – you just don’t want it to make sense to confirm yourself.

If you have two weapons, one with only high damage skills, the other with high damage skills with utility, would it be justified that both weapons have the same strong auto attack?

Manuhell.2759:

Applied Force works on everything, though. And those needed might stacks will be provided by someone else in party/raid settings, either way. So the end result is that you’ll still be using that quickness with bomb autoattacks, rather than hammer ones.
Yet again, people are convinced that the hammer is so strong, despite no one actually using it in any optimized setting. Go figure.

In a Raid setting why are you using auto attacks primarily to begin with though? The proposed 20% boost to the coefficient of the hammer wouldn’t do anything to that. This is why the analysis is so bad; we can’t keep shifting gears and changing the battlefield then talk about the results.

Last I checked people didn’t even use bomb auto in Raids all that often even for power builds and it does de facto have the highest coefficient of it’s own skills per attack.

No, it does not make sense. Having good utilities does not necessitate a bad auto attack. The fabric of the universe isn’t going to rend asunder just because the hammer auto gets a 20% boost to direct damage.

You’re pulling a false dilemma completely out of thin air. There is no weapon that suffers if the hammer and toolkit autos get a buff. There is no weapon that will have “the same strong auto attack” given my suggestion. You’re making up a situation that doesn’t resemble my suggestion in any way to try and argue against me, and even then you’re wrong: they should both have a sufficient auto attack, because one weapon should not be needlessly nerfed to compensate for the bad design of another.

I’ll ask again: Who loses?

Since you haven’t dealt with DGraves that much, let me demonstrate something. Keep in mind this is a man who has fought for months that everybody has condition damage wrong.

DGraves.3720:

First, bomb auto attack has the highest coefficient in the game for an auto

False. Thieves are higher for every single melee weapon.

DGraves.3720:

Second, comparing secondary effects of traits is ineffective.

False again. Traits pertaining to specific weapons only are always important.

DGraves.3720:

If we were to do that your analysis is worthless since Hammer literally gives itself (when traited) quickness boosting it’s own DPS by 50% (it’s a little higher, actually).

False. That isn’t a hammer specific trait. Hammer doesn’t give itself that boost from that trait either: it cannot stack enough might.

DGraves.3720:

So does flamejet when you take Juggernaut.

False. Juggernaut doesn’t stack enough might to gain the quickness bonus. You need additional traits.

DGraves.3720:

You are selectively choosing Shrapnel as a “natural decision” in the bomb trait line but ignoring many other traits that make weapons viable.

False again. I’m looking only at traits that pertain to a specific weapon, since any trait that applies to any weapon will just cancel out in the comparison. Shrapnel applies to bombs/grenades/mortar. Not hammer or toolkit.

When I say everything he says is wrong, there is not an iota of exaggeration there. He is factually incorrect on every single point and is readily understood and such by anyone with even a passing knowledge of the game. Your endorsements of his claims just undermine you as a whole.

DGraves.3720:

Manuhell.2759:

Applied Force works on everything, though. And those needed might stacks will be provided by someone else in party/raid settings, either way. So the end result is that you’ll still be using that quickness with bomb autoattacks, rather than hammer ones.
Yet again, people are convinced that the hammer is so strong, despite no one actually using it in any optimized setting. Go figure.

In a Raid setting

See? He’s already lying. He completely ignored half of the party/raid setting by just saying “raid”. He is trying to distract from the point as a whole. He doesn’t have any actual factual proof for what he is saying, so he is reducing everything to nitpicking nonsense.

DGraves.3720:

In a Raid setting why are you using auto attacks primarily to begin with though? The proposed 20% boost to the coefficient of the hammer wouldn’t do anything to that. This is why the analysis is so bad; we can’t keep shifting gears and changing the battlefield then talk about the results.

When every other good choice is on cooldown. Something that, in a power build, does happens – and rather often, i should add, since we haven’t got many of them, and they’re all from different sources (on purpose, due to how kits work – else you could just equip some kits and chain high direct damage skills by swapping continuosly).

Last I checked people didn’t even use bomb auto in Raids all that often even for power builds and it does de facto have the highest coefficient of it’s own skills per attack.

People don’t use engineer/scrapper power builds in raids to begin with. Aside from that, using bombs would indeed be a good choice if the need arises. As said above, those other skills do end up being on cooldown…

Manuhell.2759:

Applied Force works on everything, though. And those needed might stacks will be provided by someone else in party/raid settings, either way. So the end result is that you’ll still be using that quickness with bomb autoattacks, rather than hammer ones.
Yet again, people are convinced that the hammer is so strong, despite no one actually using it in any optimized setting. Go figure.

this is an issue with engi, not with hammer. if power engi did anything unique, you would see hammer almost exclusively. but all the boons engi gets are selfish or easier to get with a ps warrior or rev, and all the vuln an engi generates is unnecessary because everyone else generates it too with their (elite) specs, and all the content is easy enough to not need water or unavoidable enough to want a dedicated healer.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

DGraves.3720:

First, bomb auto attack has the highest coefficient in the game for an auto

False. Thieves are higher for every single melee weapon.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Staff_Strike

The coefficient for the staff is 75%. That is lower than 125%. The staff is a melee weapon. This just isn’t true.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Double_Strike

Dagger. 80% coefficient.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Slice_%28thief_skill%29

Sword. 80% coefficient.

Unless you disagree with the wiki itself?

Manuhell.2759:

DGraves.3720:

In a Raid setting why are you using auto attacks primarily to begin with though? The proposed 20% boost to the coefficient of the hammer wouldn’t do anything to that. This is why the analysis is so bad; we can’t keep shifting gears and changing the battlefield then talk about the results.

When every other good choice is on cooldown. Something that, in a power build, does happens – and rather often, i should add, since we haven’t got many of them, and they’re all from different sources (on purpose, due to how kits work – else you could just equip some kits and chain high direct damage skills by swapping continuosly).

Last I checked people didn’t even use bomb auto in Raids all that often even for power builds and it does de facto have the highest coefficient of it’s own skills per attack.

People don’t use engineer/scrapper power builds in raids to begin with. Aside from that, using bombs would indeed be a good choice if the need arises. As said above, those other skills do end up being on cooldown…

If running shrapnel Grenades would be the better choice since it has a coefficient of .99 when all three hit and gives a 45% chance to proc’ Shrapnel, 99% chance to proc Sharpshooter, and with Sigil of Earth an additional chance for a bleed and also induces 3 vulnerability and all three hits would gain from the 7% bonus against targets with vulnerability plus it has more team play and you can be further away.

Not that bomb kit is inferior or anything for single strike damage but it is more of a rapid termination weapon in my opinion or if you are solo-playing. But that is my opinion of course.

The problem is that you are only looking at the auto attack of the hammer not the entire kit. Hammer is in a real good spot right now (can’t speak for PvE though).

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

This is written from a PVE perspective mostly.

… and this is the fault in your logic. if anet had separated the skills for each game mode then i would agree. any buff to hammer from a pvp perspective would only serve to further push them more over the top.

DGraves.3720:

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

DGraves.3720:

First, bomb auto attack has the highest coefficient in the game for an auto

False. Thieves are higher for every single melee weapon.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Staff_Strike

The coefficient for the staff is 75%. That is lower than 125%. The staff is a melee weapon. This just isn’t true.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Double_Strike

Dagger. 80% coefficient.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Slice_%28thief_skill%29

Sword. 80% coefficient.

Unless you disagree with the wiki itself?

Coefficient per second, the bombs may hit harder but the staff hits fast enough to do more damage overall.

bloodletting wolf.2837:

The problem is that you are only looking at the auto attack of the hammer not the entire kit. Hammer is in a real good spot right now (can’t speak for PvE though).

The thing is, one doesn’t lead to another. Yes, hammer skills 2-5 are sexy as hell, but they serve a different purpose from the auto attack.

Auto attacks themselves exist as the baseline damage of the weapon. They are the minimum DPS output that a class has given no additional skills or inputs. And as such, they don’t always affect the PVP balance of the class.

What the auto attack does change is two things. First is the skill floor., AKA ease of use. Classes with high auto attacks are fairly easy to play, being capable in most player’s hands. I.E. Thief and Necromancer both have strong auto attacks on their melee weapons, meaning that it is easy to be passable at the class. You just walk up and press 1 once, then let things take care of themselves. It isn’t the peak performance of the class, not by a long shot, but this does make the baseline easier to play.

Second is build diversity. When a class has a poor auto attack, the end result is a narrowing of viable builds. You have to keep picking utilities and traits specifically to deal with the inability to do damage. This kills the versatility of the class. Take, for example, the humble Mesmer. Mesmer auto attacks are probably the worst in the game, having the same base DPS as Engi Hammer but fewer mods. The end result being that Memsers end up with but a single viable way to play the class. In PVE this is the quickness sharing chrono, a build made specifically because Mesmers can’t do damage on their own. In PVP it is condi shatter.

Hence, here is my problem. When making a melee engi, I am stuck with a single build: Explosives/Firearms/Scrapper Bomb kit – Grenade kit – Elixir Gun – Mortar. You can’t take away any of those bits. You need the bomb kit for its auto attack and fire field. You need grenades for a ranged offense and the damage they do. You need elixir gun for acid bomb, the stun break, and a condi cleanse. Mortar for orbital strike and blind field. And that is it. There are so many other utilities that I could take, but replacing any one of those skills results in my performance taking a huge hit, specifically because the class was designed to be kitten unless you spam every high damage utility you could possibly slot.

A stronger auto attack means less gimping, more build diversity, and more ease of play. It does not mean that engineers will suddenly become overpowered and kill everybody else in PVP by just auto attacking people.

Stand The Wall.6987:

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

This is written from a PVE perspective mostly.

… and this is the fault in your logic. if anet had separated the skills for each game mode then i would agree. any buff to hammer from a pvp perspective would only serve to further push them more over the top.

Thankfully this buff would probably do very little in PVP. Maybe more engineer build diversity.

What people don’t realize is that my suggestion would take the hammer auto, and would raise its base damage from 370 dps to 444 dps. Relative to other class autos, that’s still fairly low. It is on par with some guardian auto attacks, but those come with a burn proc, and if you include the mods it is about on par with necro auto attacks, sans all the unique things those do like LF generation and chill. The buff is far from unreasonable.

Serval.6458:

Coefficient per second, the bombs may hit harder but the staff hits fast enough to do more damage overall.

If you were take the “coefficient per second” the calculation would be totally different. Much like “damage per hit” isn’t “damage per second”. This coefficient represents damage per hit.

take away the evade on engi hammer leap, or the massive aoe stun, or lower cd block than warriors, THEN we can talk about buffing hammer autoattack.

then meh. if its that negligible then why have it? MEH. hodor seeks understanding.

I just want the hammer to repair turrets like the toolkit XD