Guild Wars 2

The profession and utilitys do NOT need an overhaul, there are more realistic and easy solutions. I think turrets get so much hate because people dont understand the intentional design behind them.

This can mean a few things.
1) they are not doing what people instinctively want to do with them.
2) the designed use does not fit into the meta or pve play style well.
3) they are just plain less effective at the designed goal compared to other options.

Turrets are essentially a bunker option. Whether your bunkering on a point in WvW, setting up for a boss fight in PVE, or bunkering a node in SPVP.

We can see that is the design idea for several reasons.
1) its in the toughness/healing tree.
2) we have traits to cause them to regenerate, mitigate more damage, or offer further range. It is also the tree that helps the engineer take more punishment. And we have a kit that heals them.
3) Turrets can not move.
4) outside rifle, all turrets have abilities for disabling an opponents ability to hurt you or others. (knockdown, immobalize, blind, knockback, stun, cripple)

So now that we know what the intended use of turrets is by design. We can look at how they are not fullfilling it correctly. (common complaints)

1) Turrets die too easily. In PVE bosses do many AE’s and often immidiatly kill them even when traited. In WvW due to many AE"s etc they are often taken out effortlessly. in SPVP often one or two abilities from certain professions immidiatly destroys them even when traited.
2) They dont seem to do enough damage. Turrets dont scale off power, but to be fair its really just the rifle turret thats not doing enough damage and they did say they are increasing its damage as it is the only turret whos ONLY purpose is damage.
3) You feel limited on how many turrets you can use due to needing other survival tools to bunker that the turrets dont allow and needing toolkit which limits you even further to one turret.

Simple solutions.

How to make them live longer.

1. ) Allow turrets to scale off toughness/vitality. This only makes sense.
2.) Make the turrets resistance to AE abilities so pve bosses, and wvw aoe does not instantly kill them. Currently even in spvp 1-2 ae’s can finish off most turrets even when traited for toughness.

How to make them do more damage

1. Make them scale off power. They scale off condition damage why not power?
2. Buff rifle turrets damage. (they aleady are doing this, and between this and the power scaling Rifle Turret should fullfill enough damage that you wont feel necessary to have 2 other turrets doing damage)

Add utility.
(this is already being done with the thumper turret., but right now peopel still feel like they have to give up space for stun break, etc)

Add a new Elite turret.

This actually solves SEVERAL problems by itself. Much like the Flesh Golem for necromancers…heres how.

1. ) A strong turret that would allow you to feel more comfortable traiting for turrets but not devoting every utility slot to one, perhaps 1-2 turrets, and toolkit and perhaps one other utility. You would still always have 2-4 turrets depending on yoru play style.
2. ) would warrant the TF2 style of sitting back healing a turret during WvW due to the expected ruggedness the turret might have.
3. ) Would open up more options for the engineer, and much like the flesh golem for necromancers, still weakens (literally not the condition) the necromancer if you kill it…but does not mean the necromancer wont be able to have it again for a later fight.

Also Supply drop.

Some people might say “well we already have a turret elite!” Well sorta, but should it be one?

I beleive the more they buff turrets the more this already powerful elite will be pushed into the OP zone.
Also whether you agree with that or not, i dont beleive this fullfills what turret users desires. This skill would be better off only dropping perhaps the healing turret along with stim packs, and condition removal pots (medkit stuff) and perhaps with the upgrade dropping flame thrower/elixer gun kits…..ya know…supplies!
Then you could have the support Elite (supply drop) and the turret bunker elite (Elite turret..or whatever you call it).

Best part about what i’m suggesting, it fixes the problem with mostly just number tweaking and only adding one new elite skill that i cant imagine would require much coding as it does not function differently than another turret. Just simply would be a bit stronger.

Engineers dont have to be rebuilt from the ground up to make turrets fun and useable, just changes to whats already there will make it do what you want it to do, and have fun doing it.

Well, yeah. It’s obvious to we the players, but-… Something tells me that the actual fix put forth isn’t going to have anything to do with any of those suggestions. XD Probably going to be something wacky like redirecting damage from the Engineer to the turrets, without any health increase on the turrets themselves.

A lot of this sounds good, although I question your suggestion about Supply Crate. It provides AoE cc, damage, and support. I don’t see how stripping it down to only AoE support would be better.

They are increasing damage on the rifle turret which is the “damage turret”.

I dont think any redirecting is necessary, simply tougher to kill turrets that are not easily destroyed by AE.

And the elite turret i beleive is the core solution to allowing people (if they feel they need) a stun breaker or some other utility to grab it, and still be able to pump out good damage between a rifle/rocket and their elite.

Obviously the elite turret is something we prob wont see for awhile, but tbh i think most players would be perfectly happy having it and removing mortor or elixer X in exchange.

Chaba.5410:

A lot of this sounds good, although I question your suggestion about Supply Crate. It provides AoE cc, damage, and support. I don’t see how stripping it down to only AoE support would be better.

It would still be an AE stun/nuke thus your damage and cc (also its a blast finisher), but instead of dropping a flame turret (and maybe net turret). it would drop a stim pack you or an ally could grab to increase your personal damage. As well as a condition removal. it would still be a very very good elite and would be prefered to those wanting to play a more supportive role in a team fight vs laying a turret to bunker down on a point.

Also, less counter play…as in boss fights and even spvp, a lot of times that flame/net turret get instantly killed anyway by AE’s. Point is this would actually be making Supply drop BETTER without tieng it too much to turrets. Which means it doesnt need to be considered when making balance changes to turrets. so it can stay its awsome self regardless of any turret changes.

More simply put.

New supply crate would do the following.

Wide AE damaging nuke.
Wide AE 2 second stun.
Blast finisher.
Drop bandages.
Spawn healing turret.

(new things)
Drop Stimulant
Drop Antidote
(possibly with or without trait)
Drop Flamethrower Kit
Drop Elixer Kit.

(what it no longer would do)
Flamethrower Turret.
Net Turret
(with trait)
Rifle Turret.

If supply drop moved away from being a turret spawner, the next most likely choice for a turret elite would be a remake of the mortar. I believe other have suggested on that already, but, for a quick recap/keep people from digging through old posts, mortar could become mortar turret, with its overcharge being a ground targeted version of its number 5 ability. That would give engies 2 viable choices for elites, a survive button or a big damage/knockback button (which is what I think each of those were originally designed for respectively).

If ai was improved, it could make turret engies viable, with HT, a damage turret (rocket or rifle for direct, flame or rocket for condi), a control turret (net or thumper), a stun breaker or the tool kit, and the mortar turret. Personally, I would love to play this set-up and be able to be effective, it’s been my dream since I got my first skill point in the BWE to be able to just laugh as people rush me and get wrecked on by my turret army.

A few considerations though… Vitality would be less desirable if vit/tough on turrets scaled, since turrets can’t receive conditions (to my knowledge). This means most turret bunkers would probably run heal/tough/power or tough/heal/condi, since all those stats scale with turrets. Of course, this would mean our natural counter would be heavy condi builds, so perhaps it could be balanced? It’d be great to have someone else’s input there.

Also, as to chaba’s question, right now supply crate is a bit too good for us. While we admittedly have no other options, supply crate would still be preferred in most cases even if x and mortar got retooled, as it provides aoe and individual healing, condition damage, a stun, and an immobilize. Giving it strong support and leaving the stun mechanic would give it a great spot for builds that lack those features, and removing the turrets (which may or may not benefit from the turret buff that’s supposed to be incoming) would make room for other elites on different builds.

As for aoe damage mitigation, it would likely need to be shared among all “pet” type abilities (spirits, spirit weapons, turrets, elementals, minions, pets, and thief’s thief-buddies), but that is not really a bad thing. Only problem would be implementation, as some abilities have “splash damage,” which means certain classes could have difficulty with the change (staff eles, staff necro, staff mesmer, staff… Basically, staves, hammers, possibly the mesmer gs in its upcoming form, and our own flamethrower engies, assuming they become viable soon). On the other hand, every class listed has some way to single target these battle buddies down, either by switching weapons or changing attunement. It’s another mixed bag that could change things greatly, but could also be awesome.

Sorry about all the words, and have a nice day!

This is the simplest solution to turrets! Please take a second a read it and picture your playstyle with something like this before commenting!

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/Turret-Facts-Petition/first#post1647110

Lets Re-Live your the dream most of us had pre-release of playing a turrent engineer!! without the need of taking up our entire utility bar! and the hopeless desperation of not being able to defend your turrets cause you used all your utilities to summon them!

google.3709:

This is the simplest solution to turrets! Please take a second a read it and picture your playstyle with something like this before commenting!

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/Turret-Facts-Petition/first#post1647110

Your solution is OP, and much more complicated.

Suggesting you have access to EVERY turret on a single utility skill and having all their cd’s lowered is asking for less options and an insane buff .It would require every turret to be nerfed so heavily that you could even consider having them all for one utility slot.

Open mind, you two. Both are about the same complexity from a programming standpoint, depending on how you go about it, and both certainly have the potential to fix the mechanic.

I say, lets wait and see. No need to be hostile towards each other, we’re all engies here.

Creld.8702:

Open mind, you two. Both are about the same complexity from a programming standpoint, depending on how you go about it, and both certainly have the potential to fix the mechanic.

I say, lets wait and see. No need to be hostile towards each other, we’re all engies here.

No hostility, just i’ve heard his idea 100x (i might have even suggested it back in beta before i knew better) and it always has the same problems that are pointed out everytime till people forget about it, then i see someone a few weeks later suggest it again, the problems are pointed out and it dissapears for awhile.

Also mine requires little programming outside allowing power/tough/vit to scale on the turrets (which cant be that hard they already scale off condition damage).

The elite skill would need only a model to represent it, which there are other turret models in the open world. So i dont view it as a big problem but because it would be giving us an ADDITIONAL elite option, it couldnt be put in untill everyone else gets one, or they decide to replace one (which our other two are lacking anyway).

Suggesting we throw every turret into one utility slot however. Would mean massively having to nerf every turret to the point they’re not fun and would leave us with less utility slots and a higher amount of kits over other utilitys. Also it would not be balanced with other kits, as other kits do not persist in the ability to aid you after you swap off of it. A couple lingering abilities like smokebomb/napalm/elxir heal but not 5 persisting damage sources that can take damage for you. Plus taking away the unique qualities of the pets (the over drives) just turns them into a bunch of damage sources with less uniquness. You would be better off just making a NEW turret that takes a utility skill that does what all 5 do…but it would have to be an elite skill…..not a utility skill.

its just doesnt work for the reasons i mentioned.

Also Creld you defend him by suggesting he wants the turrets to have durations, he never said that. he is wanting all the turrets as they are now with shorter cd’s and only using one utility slot that benefits from kit traits as well as turret traits.

What he is suggesting is op, and he is not acknowledging the CC and utility turrets bring. Also i wanna repeat, i’m not trying to be negative or rude. I have had an open mind to this idea, it came across my head as far back as beta and i’ve heard it a hundred times. I just dont beleive the end justifies the means….this is a less invasive approach i beleive. Everyones entitled to their opinion, but given that one more thought, i see too many flaws in it.

Creld.8702:

If supply drop moved away from being a turret spawner, the next most likely choice for a turret elite would be a remake of the mortar. I believe other have suggested on that already, but, for a quick recap/keep people from digging through old posts, mortar could become mortar turret, with its overcharge being a ground targeted version of its number 5 ability. That would give engies 2 viable choices for elites, a survive button or a big damage/knockback button (which is what I think each of those were originally designed for respectively).

I actually like this idea.

Creld.8702:

If ai was improved, it could make turret engies viable, with HT, a damage turret (rocket or rifle for direct, flame or rocket for condi), a control turret (net or thumper), a stun breaker or the tool kit, and the mortar turret. Personally, I would love to play this set-up and be able to be effective, it’s been my dream since I got my first skill point in the BWE to be able to just laugh as people rush me and get wrecked on by my turret army.

Ai improvements and bug fixes have been proving to increase the power incredibly on all pet abilities, i agree.

Creld.8702:

A few considerations though… Vitality would be less desirable if vit/tough on turrets scaled, since turrets can’t receive conditions (to my knowledge). This means most turret bunkers would probably run heal/tough/power or tough/heal/condi, since all those stats scale with turrets. Of course, this would mean our natural counter would be heavy condi builds, so perhaps it could be balanced? It’d be great to have someone else’s input there.

They actually are scaling off condition damage. And remember while some claim it to be buggy or unreliable atm. The Healing turret has an AE condition removal on its overcharge.

Creld.8702:

As for aoe damage mitigation, it would likely need to be shared among all “pet” type abilities (spirits, spirit weapons, turrets, elementals, minions, pets, and thief’s thief-buddies), but that is not really a bad thing. Only problem would be implementation, as some abilities have “splash damage,” which means certain classes could have difficulty with the change (staff eles, staff necro, staff mesmer, staff… Basically, staves, hammers, possiblyat lack those features, and removing the turrets (which may or may not benefit from the turret buff that’s supposed to be incoming) would make room for other elites on different builds. the mesmer gs in its upcoming form, and our own flamethrower engies, assuming they become viable soon). On the other hand, every class listed has some way to single target these battle buddies down, either by switching weapons or changing attunement. It’s another mixed bag that could change things greatly, but could also be awesome.

Sorry about all the words, and have a nice day!

You bring up a good point at the end, would simply buffing their toughness make the AE resistance unneeded? I mean it does give those professions some counter play to use to punish you for not spreading out your turrets.

I think this one is mostly geared towards PVE/WvW, but yea if they did it for engi they’d have to do it for ALL pet classes. But all professions with pet classes are asking for this….so it may be on the table, its hard to say right now.

You brought up a lot of really really good points and i appreciate it.

You just gave a solution right there. Also, currently, if you placed five turrets at once(just pretend you could get them all), would you really be a threat?

Now, they haven’t said anything about nerfing aoe to battle buddies, so turrets are still going to die. We also do not know the nature of the buffs we are going to receive, besides a focus on utility (or versatility, can’t remember which), and increased rifle turret damage, which may just be 5% more damage per shot.

So, if we’re still SoL with turrets after this patch, then we’ll need different options. Obviously, having 5 scaling, smart-targeting turrets in one kit is too strong. The alternative is 5 dumb, static, disposable turrets. Say tool belt is your detonate, they still get overcharge but are destroyed when it ends (which makes some sense as you’re pushing a machine beyond it’s design parameters), and have the same stats and either the same or increased cooldowns. It would make turrets viable in a fashion, perhaps not in the exact nature we want, but still viable nonetheless.

Your alternative is also good, having smarter turrets, up to 5 at a time, with a new elite and the turrets scaling and directly complementing your build. It would also make the turrets viable, in a different manner, which would suit the heavy point defense bunker turret engies.

Adding in the turret pack as an elite would do the same as making a turret elite, again in different ways, and would allow build diversity either way, as the pack could complement a gadget engy with more control, a condition engy with an option for direct damage/condition application, or a bunker engy for point defense. Meanwhile, a turret elite would complement the various builds in a similar manner, either providing more cc, direct damage, or point defense. The only difference there is numbers, which are more or less already expressed via supply crate, which you would also prefer changed for a solid turret elite.

As for programming, you would require ai improvements, stat scaling, and the introduction and removal of an elite. The alternative would require the introduction and removal of an elite, co-opting existing mechanics (that of the existing turrets and kits), and possibly some balancing (which will likely happen in either case, just more pronounced here). The biggest downside to the turret pack is losing 5 utilities that almost no one uses as intended, while yours would require no loss of skills.

Like I said, both are viable options. I know it’s been suggested many times before, but it is always good to keep an open mind, even if the idea is absurd or idiotic to you. Take care, and enjoy life!

@Creld
I actually fit the turrets into my builds as they are now. Just rarely will i use more than 1. The AI issue isnt an issue when there is only one person your fighting, the real issue comes when there are mesmers or mass pet classes or just a ton of people and your spamming AE’s. (like grenade kit)

Though i dont think the pet ai is as bad as people say, go lay down the rifle turret and the rocket turret next to the golems. Now start shooting the heavy golem….now about half way switch to the medium golem…now half way switch to the light golem.

They will start attacking on their next auto attack WHATEVER YOU ARE ATTACKING. The ai only becomes confused by AE’s, so stick to auto attacking what you want them to attack and they will follow.

also to quote you

“As for programming, you would require ai improvements, stat scaling, and the introduction and removal of an elite. The alternative would require the introduction and removal of an elite, co-opting existing mechanics (that of the existing turrets and kits), and possibly some balancing (which will likely happen in either case, just more pronounced here). The biggest downside to the turret pack is losing 5 utilities that almost no one uses as intended, while yours would require no loss of skills.”

1) Both would require ai improvements if AI is a problem with the functioning of the turrets. Not just my idea.
2) Stat scaling already exists, it just is only on condition damage. Test it on the golems using any of the turrets that have condition damage.
3) introduction or removal of an elite is the only thing. But programming another turret that functions no differently than the turrets that are already there would hopefully not be a big deal. It would be simply balancing how powerful it is VS another elite…and i dont think the necromancer flesh golem is a clear answer on how to do that.

And the turret kit would require it to be an elite to be of any significance that would satisfy the person using it. Thus why not just have an elite turret? Solves same issue.

I’ll stop posting on the other thread and just post here.

I don’t believe putting the turrets into a kit would have to make them an elite.

You may have misunderstood my other post so i’ll explain my idea again: After placing the first turret, the other turret skills don’t create new turrets, just upgrade the existing one like youy are attaching all those barrels in your turret. It would not be over powered because it takes time to setup and is only one target, kill it and the engie will have some trouble, don’t kill it and you are screwed.

You can’t give them too many stats because having many strong turrets is good for the engie but would be too hard to fight if your opponent is using 2 or 3 of them. When thinking about balance you have to make something that is good but can be countered in some way.

I believe having a turret kit is the best solution and having all of them in a single place is the way to prevent them from being overpowered.

So let me get this right.

one ability would place the turret.
2 through 5 would be upgrading it?

I’ll have to let this sit in my head for a minute if thats what your saying.

It has to work in a way that takes some time to reach its full potencial. If it is instant or can be done too fast, you can’t be countered. I’m immagining one and a half seconds for each upgrade. 7.5s to reach full potencial seems reasonable.

so about 6 seconds. That doesnt exactly take very long at all, if i run out to bunker down on a point in spvp (or wherever) i have to channel 6 seconds to bring this turret up to its full potential?. Wouldnt it make more sense to just have an evolving turret that you lay down and slowly grows stronger over 6 seconds? I dont see how this really adds any depth tbh. And all it does is prevent me from entering a fight and instantly having a turret at max power, but i could easily have one up long before anyone shows up upon bunkering on any oint, or before i’m noticed.

GuilguiS.2738:

It has to work in a way that takes some time to reach its full potencial. If it is instant or can be done too fast, you can’t be countered. I’m immagining one and a half seconds for each upgrade. 7.5s to reach full potencial seems reasonable.

ok 7.5 seconds. That still doesnt answer the issue. Is this something that is fun to do or necessary?

If you said turret kit pulls out a turret that fires on people with slot skill 1
then 2-5 are overcharge abilities you can make the turret do. This would make sense.
(then the turret wouldnt be contributing much while you dont have the kit out replacing your weapon skills)

but saying 2-5 are things you have to click on the turret to get it to max power….i might as well have a turret that i lay down that slowly just gets stronger. Eliminating an annoying behavior that doesnt really add to the fun factor or strategy of the turret.

@GuilguiS
It’s a bit odd for me. Having only 1 turret means you lose all of the turrets’ overcharges, you can’t spread your turrets out to maximize their effectiveness over time, and it make pre-placement both much more and much less important (you only have to worry about one to place, but you only have one to place).

@Zinwrath
Lessee… I can’t test right now, though I do distinctly remember turrets attacking destroyed objects rather than npcs, though it may have been fixed since I last farmed centaur. Condition damage scaling does currently exist, as it simply required them to attribute the healing/condition damage to you. Direct damage/toughness scaling probably would function differently, as it would have to dynamically (or possibly on turret placement) scale the turrets damage to you, though they could do something similar to condition damage with that (the turret’s attack is your attack). Toughness would certainly have to be attributed from you on placement, which is actually quite doable… The question is then, how much power/toughness do they get from you? If it’s full, then bunker turrets would be incredibly difficult to kill, especially for condition based enemies. Glass cannons would literally become glass cannons, putting out massive amounts of damage in an overcharge, but dying quickly. Most likely it’d be a percent (my initial guess would be a base+.4~.6*stat) which would make turrets easily balanced by modifying that percent… I forgot, who am I arguing for? Oh well, doesn’t matter.

Honestly, I would like any option that would improve the class, give us more viable builds, and create interesting gameplay. Both ideas can do this, both are possible to implement, if I were to make a gander I’d say yours Z is more likely, but I would never say a turret pack is impossibru!

6 or 7 seconds is more than enough time for someone to rush in a point an try to stop you. The time is there for balancing purposes, because having something strong and easy to place or use is OP like thief backstab combo(the problem is not the damage, it’s the lack of counters and ease of use).
I don’t think it makes sense to place a turret htat auto upgrades itself because that’s too easy. And the depth comes in the gameplay, a turret build would play like the TF2 engineer, let him upgrade his turret and he’s hard to kill, kill it and he’s pretty much dead.
You don’l lose the overcharges because they will be in the kit you equip. After using the skill to “upgrade” the turret it becomes the overcharged ability.

Creld.8702:

@GuilguiS
It’s a bit odd for me. Having only 1 turret means you lose all of the turrets’ overcharges, you can’t spread your turrets out to maximize their effectiveness over time, and it make pre-placement both much more and much less important (you only have to worry about one to place, but you only have one to place).

@Zinwrath
Lessee… I can’t test right now, though I do distinctly remember turrets attacking destroyed objects rather than npcs, though it may have been fixed since I last farmed centaur. Condition damage scaling does currently exist, as it simply required them to attribute the healing/condition damage to you. Direct damage/toughness scaling probably would function differently, as it would have to dynamically (or possibly on turret placement) scale the turrets damage to you, though they could do something similar to condition damage with that (the turret’s attack is your attack). Toughness would certainly have to be attributed from you on placement, which is actually quite doable… The question is then, how much power/toughness do they get from you? If it’s full, then bunker turrets would be incredibly difficult to kill, especially for condition based enemies. Glass cannons would literally become glass cannons, putting out massive amounts of damage in an overcharge, but dying quickly. Most likely it’d be a percent (my initial guess would be a base+.4~.6*stat) which would make turrets easily balanced by modifying that percent… I forgot, who am I arguing for? Oh well, doesn’t matter.

Honestly, I would like any option that would improve the class, give us more viable builds, and create interesting gameplay. Both ideas can do this, both are possible to implement, if I were to make a gander I’d say yours Z is more likely, but I would never say a turret pack is impossibru!

I think its only fair that turrets should be squishier if the engineer is squishier. Not sure if you were saying that was an issue or not. You bring up a good point regarding how the damage is calculated and that the turrets damage should be calculated as a source from the player not the turret (which i never thought about that it might not be…very confusing).

Also (if they’re not, never considered it) turrets should be vulnerable to condition damage. It just makes things much easier to balance…so if they’re not they should be.

I’m not sure on the math of what is a balanced % for the turrets to receive from the player, that would just have to be weighed out. I just think its important that they do, as most any other ability (outside pets) that does damage can have its damage increased through the players statistics. Toughness on turrets i’m simply aiming at the issue of them being a little too squishy in their current state.

Also, a turret kit per say isnt impossible. Just the design that he presented and others have presented. If i was to design a (turret kit) which i STILL could write an essay on why given this state of the game might not be for the best would work kinda like what guil said.

How A Turret Kit Might Work

Toolbelt (place turret, clicking again destroys turret)

ability 1 ) Remote fire! – An auto attack that does more damage than when the kit is not in use. Turret attacks whatever the engineer is targetted on as if its his own auto attack but fires 1200 range from the turret, not the engineer. (because its replacing the engies auto attack, it applies Sigil and Trait procs)

Ability 2 ) some kind of ae fireblast

Ability 3 ) some kind of CC (launched smoke combo field?)

ability 4 ) some kind of super high damage attack…perhaps a large rocket that does knockdown.

ability 5 ) an AE knockback pbao from the turret.

It would work because your not getting tons of free damage turrets just for 1 utility slot and you get to have fun remote controlling the turret for long range high damage (that you could be a reasonably safe distance from) still has counter play because turret is weaker than you so players can attack it, Toolbelt recharge on the turret could be kept low.

Also when turret is dead, while having the kit out the auto attack would need to still work but come from the engineer itself. only problem i see.

The idea is that the turret kit is like a package with the turret parts and you build it during or before the fight. Every skill places a piece of the turret and then becomes the overcharged ability. So for example step-by-step: Equip the kit-> build the thumper part -> build the net part -> build the rocket part -> build the flame part -> build the rifle part. It doesn’t have to follow that order and the overcharged abilities can be used before finishing the upgrades.

GuilguiS.2738:

The idea is that the turret kit is like a package with the turret parts and you build it during or before the fight. Every skill places a piece of the turret and then becomes the overcharged ability. So for example step-by-step: Equip the kit-> build the thumper part -> build the net part -> build the rocket part -> build the flame part -> build the rifle part. It doesn’t have to follow that order and the overcharged abilities can be used before finishing the upgrades.

Basicly your borrowing the TF2 engineer upgrade play style.

Only thing is it works better in TF2. I’m not sure i’d enjoy channeling each ability on a turret so i can use its abilities. How powerful do you think this turret would be after you upgraded it? I mean if you wasted all that time and they eaisly killed it it would be pretty annoying….this might work ok in certain PVE scenerios but i’m having a hard time wrapping my mind around it in pvp.

The max health can be increased for each part, with balanced numbers of course. Besides you still have space in your utility skills for the tool-kit and other stuff so you should be able to keep it alive through control or tool-kit heals.

Maybe some numbers like the rate of fire for each part would have to be tweaked but the fully built turret should be strong enough to make your enemies worry about wich they have to kill first, you or the turret, because it does a lot of things at the same time.

Honestly i believe it would work much better in pvp than pve since it remains immobile, wich is the turret’s worst problem in pve.

@GuilguiS
I got how you meant for it to work, I’m just not overfond of it personally. Having a single turret do multiple turrets’ work means you either have a really powerful buddy or a really big target.

@Z
The biggest thing I’d advocate on a turret “kit” is it not be considered a kit in the traditional sense. Kits are weapon alternatives, what I would prefer is a pack of turrets. If you went strictly kit, it might be better to go the banner way. Have up to 3 turret kits with several shared abilities and 1-2 abilities unique to the turret. Still, I don’t think that’s what we need right now. Having the ability to deploy 5 turrets as an elite might be acceptable, with access to the pack limited to every x seconds (15-30 seconds long, but the turrets and turret overcharges have increased individual cooldowns as well). This would be in lieu of major buffs to turrets, the buffs themselves giving the high possibility of some of these ideas being unnecessary.

I think the majority of ideas are unnecessary If arenanet just gives the appropriate buffs, which is kinda the point of my thread. The elite turret it just sort of a way to please a certain crowd.

Peoples issue with turrets is they are thinking of the TF2 engineer.
The TF2 engineer’s damage is puny, but he can build this massive hard hitting turret.

They want their turrets to be these crazy power houses that make up the most of the engineers damage like in TF2..so instead of you doing much damage/etc its being done through the machines you built..

But they are not weapons, they are utilitys and have to be balanced as such, if you want a turret that is anywhere remotely close to that scale it has to be an elite or the class defining skill the way Ranger pets are.

So basicly my “turret kit” was a way to allow a turret to be powerful and for the engineer to (in some small way) do majority of his damage THROUGH the turret. by (while the kit is out) sacrificing his own weopon damage for higher turret damage, while also having access to turret related abilities. Its not a perfect idea…i could find flaws it in all day if i really wanted to. But something like this is more in line with what the turret fanatics want who were dissapointed.

As they are, with a few buffs/bug fixes however they will be very viable in a couple builds. And i’m sure if one day they put in an elite turret, those people who wanted a beefcake turret will be happy

If turret builds are for bunkering and point holding then our damage isn’t very different from the TF2 engineer and we would need the turret to make up for it.

Just going out of topic for a moment but how can you play the engineer class and not think about TF2? We are the TF2 roster, only the sniper and spy are missing.

GuilguiS.2738:

If turret builds are for bunkering and point holding then our damage isn’t very different from the TF2 engineer and we would need the turret to make up for it.

Just going out of topic for a moment but how can you play the engineer class and not think about TF2? We are the TF2 roster, only the sniper and spy are missing.

And heavy. Though we can stealth/gain stability, so heavy and spy are kinda there in spirit.

However, I do disagree that we should use tf2 as a basis for our class balance. Also, in theory, you can have offensive turret builds with explosive turrets and deployable turrets, but making them work is very difficult… Still, bunkers in gw2 aren’t supposed to be massive damage dealers, merely area denial/burst counters. There are exceptions to this, but generally it holds true that bunkers have lower damage than other playstyles.

Here’s what we need for an ‘Elite Turret’…

@Creld

Not thinking of TF2 as a basis for our balance but as an inspiration for the design of the class. I threw this idea because i really like this playstyle and i think it would work.

That would be an awesome elite, i’d even take it over the mortor…but you could make it as awesome looking as you want to….as long as they dont buff their durability or let you share your toughness. It’ll be just a bad kitten monster turret that gets two shotted like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyoqHs1pGaU

and yes…ed 209 spoke spanish

@Ejiofor
I’ll take 5.

@GuilguiS
You like the idea, of course. But it would end up either being incredibly powerful (making a turret engy unbeatable 1v1 due to immobilize, cripple, 2 burns and a constant attack) or completely useless as it would either be horrible at either damage (which is what keeps people off points), survival (if something can dish out a lot of damage, it has to die just as fast), or it would only be able to do one turret’s attack at a time (either alternating or randomly between the 5).

Engineer turrets should be threatening, but not to the point of a one mech army. All I want is enemies to see a turret engineer on a point and have to think twice about engaging. There are some changes we need to do this, but making an all-in-one turret most likely is not it.

@Zinwrath.2049

I got a simple question for you, how much damage do you believe each turrent should be able to make ? both berserker and condi builds ?

also, how much damage should they be able to tank ? should they be able to tank vets in dungeons? take hits for bosses? for for the 450 and 600 range, should they survive a zerg fight ?

some numbers would be nice

My opinion is that numbers won’t fix our turrets wheter it is stats or cooldowns in pvp at least. It will help, people will try them and think “yeah they are strong now”. They’ll go full turret build and try it but it won’t work because even with more damage or health, our core problems with them are the lack stun breakers and cleanses in the builds and their lack of mobility(wich is mainly a pve problem).

What i mean is when people see a turret engineer in a point, they’ll know that he’s weak aggainst conditions cause he has only one cleanse, they can always easily move out of range from the turrets and hit them from range and aoes.

That’s why i thought about an all in one turret, because it is a change in mechanics and playstyle. You can protect your single turret from ranged attacks with the tool kit and the shield blocks, as well as repair it( wich becomes almost impossible if you have 2 or 3 turrets spread on the point), and have more cleanses with your other utility slot.

@GuilguiS
Well, you skipped one or two suggestions made in this post, but that’s fine. A healing/power/toughness bunker with HT, EG, rocket turret, and either net or thumper turret ought to be able to survive a while versus conditions. If a turret elite is added, that would make him harder to kill as well, though supply crate currently works well for this anyways. As for repairing/keeping up constant turrets, that’s less than ideal, as the tool kit works much better in repairing turrets out of combat than in. Turrets also have a short cast/cooldown so that if they are destroyed, you can bring them back before you’re killed.

I realize you really want to play a tf2 engineer in gw2, but it is very unlikely to happen. Also, you can stack 3 turrets in to same spot, healing them all at once. If that’s the playstyle you wish to pursue, I say go for it, but others may not agree with you.

@google
Numbers should be whatever is balanced.

They should scale appropriatly off your gear. So if you built high defencive stats you would have tankier turrets that reflect how your outfitting your character. If you high power/condition they should do more damage reflecting how you outfitted your character.

Just like all other abilities in the game. Take life siphon for necromancer… if you build healing it heals you for more, if you build power it hits harder. Your ability is better at doing whatever YOU are building yourself to do through gear.

@Guilguis
As much fun as the engineer in TF2 is the thing you have to understand if your all about having this super powerful turret that makes up the majority of what you do…that would require a complete class redesign. From weapons to abilitys to traits.

You would want it to be built like the Ranger is with his pets. his abilities/traits/weapons/damage etc….are all balanced around this pet he always has. And it can be a significant amount of his damage and tanking ability.

But since engineers are not that way, asking for that…is REALLY unlikely at this point.

Zinwrath.2049:

@google
Numbers should be whatever is balanced.

They should scale appropriatly off your gear. So if you built high defencive stats you would have tankier turrets that reflect how your outfitting your character. If you high power/condition they should do more damage reflecting how you outfitted your character.

Just like all other abilities in the game. Take life siphon for necromancer… if you build healing it heals you for more, if you build power it hits harder. Your ability is better at doing whatever YOU are building yourself to do through gear.

I want to have a rational discussion that’s why i want to ask you politely to explain something to me. bunkers are mentioned a lot when talking about turrets. so lets assume they do scale with the player’s power and toughness. bunkers normal deal low damage because of their set up, which means turrets would deal low damage as well, so as a bunker, what would be the benefits of bringing turrets instead of condi removals, stun breakers, etc ?

ps: life siphon benefits by 5% so at 1000 healing power, they would heal an extra 50hp per tick, but realistically no necromancer would spec this much healing power.

Even the damage they bring now is damage you would not have if you grabbed other utility skills. Also turrets like the flame turret for example, do not just bring damage and potentially distract enemy attacks from you..it also lays down a smoke combo field which constantly blinds the enemy and allows you to temporarily stealth with your combo finisher on shield/jumpshot to quickly evade and reposition.

Engineers do not bunker simply by taking a truck load of damage. And a bunker still wants to be able to win a fight if possible. Turrets do several things for holding a point.

Rocket turret, net turret, (soon thumper) and flame turret all have overcharge abilities that CC the enemy your fighting. this buys you more time to tear them down with your auto attacks, and the auto attacks of the turrets. This also buys you more time (ontop of the time you buy yourself with your pistol cc, shield cc’s or rifle cc’s) for your energy to recharge so you can dodge again all awhile pumping out damage.

So if a rogue wants to come in and assasinate you for example to take your point, he has to deal with the fact even if he CC’s you, your turrets are still applying damage to him, as well as CC. If he ignores you to fight them, you can unload damage on him and cc him. You juggle your opponent wittling them down all while being very tanky (we have protection procs off being crit and cc’d through traits as well as runes). Because of this you cant be burst down under normal situations.

Also healing turret is a condition removal. And you dont need stunbreakers if A) you cant be burst down anyway, and B ) you have more stuns than your opponent.

This is how we bunker with turrets.

Most of the cool downs are on 30s cool down, smoke field last for 5 secs and is easily avoided by jumping away from the point

thumper turret requires target to be within 240 range making it only effective vs melee

Explosive rocket is shot at the sky and can be easily avoided by walking out its landing place

also don’t forget that turrets special abilities only trigger on their next attack and not when you command them, as a bunker who needs to stay alive, can you rely on them ?

Cleansing burst is indeed a condition removal on a 60 second cool down which removes 2 conditions ( description is currently bugged ), also if you need acess to this in order to remove immobilize to prevent a spike or high bleed/confusion stacks, you would have to use your heal, which then will be put on a 20s cool down

stun breaker? what if you get attacked by a HB warrior or back stack thief, what if the attacker is a Mesmer ( very possible ) which can stay at range away from turrets and still deal impressive damage

or if you’re facing a condition thief, ranger or necro ?

what if the player has AoE?

Google….jumping out of the smoke field stops you from having the blind applied, and if the turret is in the middle of the point that means they’re not standing on it contesting it. Also you can still auto attack for 20% chance to blind them on each attack by shooting through or in it. Also them not being in it doesnt stop you from being able to invis off it.

Thumper is only good vs mellee, true….but someone who wants to take the point you placed it on…has to stand on that point where the thumper is, and if they decide to take it out before moving onto the point, you just bought yourself that much time, plus you could be shooting them while they’re doing this….

Explosive rocket can be, if your not Netted (i suggested this earlier) and its kinda hard to focus on what the 2-3 turrets are doing when your in mid battle with an engineer who is CCing you…so its not that big of a deal.

I also already answered why the next attack thing isnt relative…you dont read my posts…why am i even writing this….you dont click them till you can net them, for a long CC combo…or in anticipation of needing them. They work fine.

Odds are if you have that much condition damage on you, you probably need to heal anyway….never the less, you should prob trait for 8% chance for conditions to boons if your bunkering (maybe even immunity to conditions under 25% health). i dont have issues with conditions, if its that big of a deal drop a turret…pick up elixer C.

Dont need em, those classes if smart would use another form of CC to get you to blow your stun breaker early before they would use such abilities on you, also if you see one charging you, you can go ahead and activate the CC on your abilities to stun themf irst, or dodge roll…..also if you are full bunker, you wont die..they will blow all their crap and then you will heal, and then cc the hell out of thema nd pummel them because they are ALL damage stats thus they have no HP or toughness and no skills cause they blew them all on you.

If the player has AOE, i’d hope your smart enough not to stick all your turrets on the point, most points have high areas you can place your long range turrets……yawn…

this is all..like…stuff i shouldnt have to tell mr “i’m 40 in spvp”. You keep making fun of me saying i must never use turrets….yet here i am telling you how to use them. Irony. Anyway, no further posts by you will be answered in this thread by me.

How much blinds can you apply on a 20% chance on 5s window ? every 30 seconds ?

in sPvP, they would kill you first then cap the point >.> idk what you’re talking about

the fire rate is 4s and it has a 1-3s travel time, can your net last this long ?

so you would bunker without a reliable condition remover ? and leave it up to 8% chance? also, for what i understand the 25% trait, doesn’t allow you to get new conditions under 25% but it will not remove any pre-existing conditions, so any burning/bleedings/poison will most likely still kill you

special abilities trigger on their next attack, that could be 1s 2s or 4s after you needed them.

you don’t understand that turrets like flame turret have a 450 range, thumped turret a 240 range, net turret 600.. if you want them to hit an enemy or take use of their ability, they would have to be placed relatively close to each other, so most of the time they will be hit by same AoE

and i say it, because if you had tried them, you would understand all this, turret skill description look amazing when you read them off the wiki, but once you get to use them is a different story

ps: i mention im almost rank 40 for credibility, lots of the things you mention about bunkering really don’t make sence and also, the examples you’ve given me on how to play turrets are theory at the most and haven’t been tried, if you tried the turrets right now, you would like ‘wow he’s right’, take some time and use turrets in 1 sPvP match, 1 dungeon, WvW, try them in shore and you will realize that turrets do not work as you picturing them in your mind

First, obviously i dont think they’re where they should be or i wouldnt be asking for small buffs to them (and they are giving buffs to them)…which is my whole point of my thread, they just need to be made worth their utility slot…per turret.

Second, feel free to hit me up in game and try to take a point from me. I’ll use turrets in their weakened state and even record it for ya. if theyr’e so bad i’m sure you’ll mop the floor with me im only level 30

I like these ideas and other potential “small” changes to turrets (like letting you pick up and reposition them) much better than anything major like making a “Turret Kit” which would require a great degree of balancing and probably some pretty big changes. I like turrets the way they are for the most part, they just need a bit more “oomph”.

All stats scaling with turrets and turret causing Line of Sight, not just your enemies but your own also, meaning you can damage your own turrets.

As you stated, no need for two turret elite. I think a Golem summon like azure’s golem summon elite would do the trick. With the condition and boon scaling buff alone, the Supple Crate elite is already pushed into the top elites spots.

Lite.3819:

All stats scaling with turrets and turret causing Line of Sight, not just your enemies but your own also, meaning you can damage your own turrets.

As you stated, no need for two turret elite. I think a Golem summon like azure’s golem summon elite would do the trick. With the condition and boon scaling buff alone, the Supple Crate elite is already pushed into the top elites spots.

Honestly, supply crate is too good. It’s one of those skills we have that just outshine everything else…

Hmm, I have an idea.