Guild Wars 2

Does the engineer have a solid single target dps build that can dish out good damage?
Everything that I’ve seen so far has been AoE. Even the rifle/pistol basic attacks do AoE instead of single target.

I use a rifle crit build that does fairly decent damage to single targets and has extremely high survivability. The grenade spam was hurting my hands after awhile so I had to stop using them lol… (I have no idea why they can’t autofire like every other weapon.)

Skills are: med kit, utility goggles, elixir c, elixir s, take root (sylvari racial that gives handy invulnerability + turrets, swap for supply drop otherwise)

Traits: 10, 30, 0, 0, 30. Exploit weakness, hair trigger, rifle mod, go for the eyes, speedy kits (for perma run), scope, armor mods.

Gear: Focus on critical chance/critical damage/power, but also add in some toughness/vitality gear to give survivability.

-The way to play is get in close and dish out tons of damage with the rifle skills. Blunderbuss/jumpshot criticals become extremely powerful with fury, make sure you land these.
-Use your med kit for health+fury.
-Use goggles for more fury and to inflict 10% vulnerability.
-Elixir C to get rid of conditions.
-Elixir S to run away/stomp people
-If you are sylvari like me, take root is an anti-burst button and makes turrets. Fun vs. thieves.
-If you’re not sylvari, use supply drop.

I find this build pretty useful for small groups in WvW. Generally pick a target, focus on them, and kill them as quickly as possible. You also run around the map with perma-swiftness, so you can easily be where you’re needed. I’m not super pro or anything, but I fair pretty decently vs. most other professions. I was surprised to see how many kills I started getting upon switching to this build. Expect to feel useless in a zerg though, there’s not much AOE you can do. Focus your efforts on taking out camps and skirmishes in the open where you excel.

Also, as a final word, you can run through a zerg using elixir S/elixir C/lots of dodging/swiftness. There’s usually not much they can do to stop you given the amount of stunbreaks you have. Really useful for reinforcing towers/keeps under siege.

kazi.6438:

I use a rifle crit build that does fairly decent damage to single targets and has extremely high survivability. The grenade spam was hurting my hands after awhile so I had to stop using them lol… (I have no idea why they can’t autofire like every other weapon.)

They can’t auto fire because they require ground targetting. Take for example when you go underwater, they can be auto targetted there because they’re no longer ground-targetted.

Honestly, if they sped up the grenades and removed ground targeting, I doubt that too much would change gameplay-wise.

i use a rifle to but unlike kazi i didn’t take grenades because im kitten at aiming lol.

anyway my traits are 20/30/0/20/0 i take you basic damage dealing traits except in alchemy i take fast-acting elixirs and cleaning formula 409.

my stats are power 1800ish precision 1700ish and toughness vitality between 1400-1500, with the boons i get powers almost always over 2k and fury is up nearly permanently , my skills are elixir h, elixir b, elixir r, flamethrower kit and supply kit, thanks to the trait skill cleaning formula and all those elixirs and the belt skills i got heaps of condition removal.

anyway i try to spam my heal whenever i can to get the most outta the might stacks as well as elixir b so i can keep that fury up, i pop elixir r when i need to get away from combat really fast, and try to save my tool belt elixirs for condition removal and boons but saving the toss elixir r when im about to go down (you have no idea how much this owns when your vs’ing 2 or 3 people and they all try to finish you)

any way for fighting i like to net people jump shot blunderbuss and then knock back to counter any ideas they had for dishing out some damage while switching to flamethrower now and then to make use of the fire combo field, while using the knock back to throw then back threw the fire wall and the blind is always handy , also make note of what the other people are doing using your knock backs to interrupt as much of there kitten as possible and finally use your supply kit only when u need to, if your any good chances are you’ll never need to use it in a 1v1, also just something i like to do when fighting multiple people drop your fire wall on any one you’ve downed this will hopefully discourage him team mates from rezzing him stop him from healing and if they do try to rez him u can deal out some extreme damage to any one stupid enough to stay still for that long

hope this helps, im not so good at this whole explaining thing but if you have any question ill be happy to provide answers

kazi.6438:

Honestly, if they sped up the grenades and removed ground targeting, I doubt that too much would change gameplay-wise.

Yeah, it would change a lot actually. Grenades are awesomely powerful in PvE but they take some skill to aim, like nading on the move, hitting mobs that are moving (and properly leading your targets), throwing nades behind you while running at full speed, etc.

Two things could happen if nades were auto-targeted.
(1) The aim of nades would likely under-lead moving targets so you would be completely useless against anything that’s on the move (like a big mob chasing you), whereas before you can control the aim and lead targets properly.
(2) The nades would lead targets almost perfectly and be too powerful, likely leading to nades getting nerfed. So those of us who can currently aim grenades the manual way would have less utility for them because they have now been simplified to no-skill spammable weapons that are no longer as powerful as they once were. People would whine endlessly about nades being ‘dumbed down’ and not as fun — likely grenades would see further nerfs (damage, explosion radius, etc) in PvP game modes.

So does the rifle really outshine the dual pistols/pistol+shield combos by that much?

No, it depends on your gear and how much condition damage bonuses you have. If you have minimal condition damage bonuses, rifle is the way to go. If you spec for high condition damage then p/p or p/s is the way to go.

For example, I sport a power-oriented build, and even with 2200 power, the rifle doesnt nearly put out the DPS that grenades do. I’m usually scoring like 50%-66% DPS with rifle vs a single target then I would be doing with nades (being full grenadier spec). I use the rifle for situations where I need to temporarily control a target, or kite a moving target that I cant aim nades properly at.

However, when it comes to absolute DPS, Pistol/Pistol is where its at if you’ve got a decent amount of condition damage bonuses going on. And even if you don’t, p/p is still decent because the damages over time caused by all the conditions that pistols inflict can outpace that of power-oriented rifle users.

I carry a rifle, pistols and a shield and switch them up depending on the task that needs to be done. My pistols are carrion exotics with +75 condition damage each and even without having a lot of condition damage on my other gear (nor am I deep enough into the alchemy tree to benefit from sizeable condition bonuses), they slightly outpace my rifle in pure DPS.

The main problem with pistols (aside from lack of good target controlling abilities) is that the more condition damagers you have attacking the same target, the less return you’re going to get on your condition damage bonuses, as well as the fact that condition damage DPS starts out slow and ramps up, making it unsuitable for using on squishy targets that are going to die quickly anyways.

no they dont. conditions do not come close to direct damage, even on pistols themselves.
And rifle outdamages pistols significantly the vast majority of the time. withough coated bullets is not even close. With coated bullets, rifle does more damage, unless pistols hit 3 times per target.

Grenades significantly out dps everything else. if you want dps. grenades. they outdo everything else by 2-3times.

Below that its a bit more murky.
Rifle scales the best inherently. Its high base damage is largely the cause. note it doesn’t even have a magic god talent like juggernaut, coated bullets, etc.
Toolkit does well, esp when paired with static discharge, on low CD toolbelt skills.
Rifle also can be paired with discharge/toolbelt skills really.

Coated bullets. 3 hits per target, pistols catch up to rifle. less then 3, its weaker.
Bombs are above rifle I think, but obviously need you to stand on your target nonstop. not really viable for dps. Even TK doesn’t require as much.
FT is pretty terrible.

kazi.6438:

Honestly, if they sped up the grenades and removed ground targeting, I doubt that too much would change gameplay-wise.

Except they would be OP as kitten. Grenades’ projectile speed was nerfed just a few patches ago because even with ground-targeting they were too strong.

So there would be a change in game-play. All other kits wold become obsolete… again. :P

Casia.4281:

no they dont. conditions do not come close to direct damage

Somebody doesn’t know how to build for condition-damage…

DreamOfACure.4382:

kazi.6438:

Honestly, if they sped up the grenades and removed ground targeting, I doubt that too much would change gameplay-wise.

Except they would be OP as kitten. Grenades’ projectile speed was nerfed just a few patches ago because even with ground-targeting they were too strong.

_pretty sure we’re talkin pve here and no since the cond nerf to engineers alone (no others suffered because of this thus my 63 tick bleeds compared to my 94 bleed thief) they have never fixed it. that’s on top of the targeting issue where one out of the three nades miss 30% of the time.

mmmmmPretty sure 30 grenades in pve is underpowered. 3 nades per throw ten throws to kill a single mob in Orr, yeah underpowered. they are grenades you know.

Casia.4281:

no they dont. conditions do not come close to direct damage

Somebody doesn’t know how to build for condition-damage…

Uhm no, as someone who has built his toon all around cond damage before the nerf I can tell you they definitely made it impossible for engis to do as much damage as even the other two adventurer classes in this game so yeah, we know what we are talking about and it’s not an ignorance thing. Casia is right.

Also, they have messed with the splosion radius. you do know this right? and that it caused the radius to be even smaller now when choosing forceful explosives as a trait?

DreamOfACure.4382:

kazi.6438:

Honestly, if they sped up the grenades and removed ground targeting, I doubt that too much would change gameplay-wise.

Except they would be OP as kitten. Grenades’ projectile speed was nerfed just a few patches ago because even with ground-targeting they were too strong.

So there would be a change in game-play. All other kits wold become obsolete… again. :P

Casia.4281:

no they dont. conditions do not come close to direct damage

Somebody doesn’t know how to build for condition-damage…

math doesnt lie.

what cond CAN do, is build for defense, and still deal damage. as its scales with 2 stats only. cond and cond duration. only one of which is a prime stat. (aka cond duration doesn’t come on gear/trinkets.)

But direct damage has higher coefficients. scales with weapon damage, including exotics, which itemized past base level. Scales with vul, scales with traits that provide +damage %, discharge, retaliation, etc all scale with power.

tigirius.9014:

DreamOfACure.4382:

kazi.6438:

Honestly, if they sped up the grenades and removed ground targeting, I doubt that too much would change gameplay-wise.

Except they would be OP as kitten. Grenades’ projectile speed was nerfed just a few patches ago because even with ground-targeting they were too strong.

_pretty sure we’re talkin pve here and no since the cond nerf to engineers alone (no others suffered because of this thus my 63 tick bleeds compared to my 94 bleed thief) they have never fixed it. that’s on top of the targeting issue where one out of the three nades miss 30% of the time.

mmmmmPretty sure 30 grenades in pve is underpowered. 3 nades per throw ten throws to kill a single mob in Orr, yeah underpowered. they are grenades you know.

Casia.4281:

no they dont. conditions do not come close to direct damage

Somebody doesn’t know how to build for condition-damage…

Uhm no, as someone who has built his toon all around cond damage before the nerf I can tell you they definitely made it impossible for engis to do as much damage as even the other two adventurer classes in this game so yeah, we know what we are talking about and it’s not an ignorance thing. Casia is right.

Also, they have messed with the splosion radius. you do know this right? and that it caused the radius to be even smaller now when choosing forceful explosives as a trait?

ok, I know you are agreeing with me…
but you, and I think one or two others keep talking about a cond nerf.
I don’t remember seeing one, cond damage was always like this.

What was changed exactly?

I would think Med Kit and Elixers B+U could help, but in the grand scheme of things your giving up allot more then your gaining. I also hear Tool kit got a nice buff.

Casia.4281:

no they dont. conditions do not come close to direct damage, even on pistols themselves.
And rifle outdamages pistols significantly the vast majority of the time. withough coated bullets is not even close. With coated bullets, rifle does more damage, unless pistols hit 3 times per target.

This does of course depend on the target, though. The one claim to fame a pistol-condition build has is that it’s not bad at ripping apart high-toughness characters that build up condition clearing; engineer conditions are short lived and varied and can’t easily be cleared. The rifle has a harder time here.

a good build for high single target damage is as follows

20/30/0/10/10

the main thing to get is ‘static discharge’, ‘incendiary powder’ and ‘enhanced performance’

i use full runes of lyssa with a superior sigil of air. the trick to this build is to run with the rifle turret and make sure to spam the toolbelt skill for it whenever its available. with my rifle if i crit i can hit them essentially 4 times on the opening strike.

the reason i like the runes of lyssa is because of the massive crit chance it gives you, and the random boon every time you heal. with this build you get one defensive buff, one random buff and three stacks of might every time you chug elixir H.

warning " this build is crap against thieves"

Lucky Charmz.5089:

So does the rifle really outshine the dual pistols/pistol+shield combos by that much?

Nah. In fact I would say p/p outshines rifle. They both kinda suck at doing damage though.

@OP

Grenades + grenadier are the engineers only good source of sustained DPS.

Bombs are ok, but are best used while dancing between grenades.

Casia.4281:

math doesnt lie.

what cond CAN do, is build for defense, and still deal damage. as its scales with 2 stats only. cond and cond duration. only one of which is a prime stat. (aka cond duration doesn’t come on gear/trinkets.)

But direct damage has higher coefficients. scales with weapon damage, including exotics, which itemized past base level. Scales with vul, scales with traits that provide +damage %, discharge, retaliation, etc all scale with power.

Math doesn’t lie indeed. The problem here though, is you have a horrible habit of having posted inaccurate math. Certainly a glass cannon crit damage build will out damage any condition damage build, but the common pow/tough/vit build will not out damage the a condition damage build. You in particular have had a nasty habit of making condition damage comparisons to the more class canon like builds in general, otherwise you have a horrible habit of calculating condition damage, all the while leaving the direct damage of attacks in a condition damage build out.

For example I have seen you compare pistol #1 skill to rifle #1 skill, while neglecting damage from rune of earth (which is extremely commonly used in pistols) and the actual direct damage of the pistols attack, by just calculating the bleed damage and calling it a day. Then compare them. You have to figure in the total condition damage added to the skills base direct damage with crit chance damage divided into that. You always fail to leave portions of that out.

You cannon cherry pick a condition build and compare it to your cherry picked direct damage build, calculate it with lacking mathematics, then make the claims you are making here.

I would agree, if you make the mistake of going full tank, then conditions will come close to power. A nominal value of tough/vit if you feel you are too soft is all you really should do. 200-300 tough. Active skills like overcharged, elixir R, U, S, shields should be the first step for +survival.
In fact,I said that in the post you quoted…

As power scales with crit, crit damage, vulnerability, % damage traits, and weapon damage. if you don’t HAVE any of those, then cond does become more appealing.
Retaliation scales with power, static discharge scales with power. Cond doesnt work on seige, doors, etc.
on my mesmer for example. I can stack 10-20 stacks of confuse, and staying alive to cast portal, null field, shatters over and over is more powerful then any attempt to burst.
So yeah, cond/tough/vit is pretty viable.

When its close I get into it. But that bleed also does not apply to the aoe hit, and thus multi hit on coated bullets for pistols. Pre coated bullets, yeah, the bleed is a larger portion.
I just get tired of repeating myself, and doing the math over and over and over. so I simplify it sometimes.
Pistol 1 with coated bullets. 2-3 aoe hits of direct damage, and 1 bleed single target(piercing). If I need to explain why the direct hit is significantly more damage AOE, then the bleed which is single target…
We even broke down the math on sharpshooter when discussing +duration. Sharpshooter dps is pretty insignificant. ( The direct bleed gained ALOT from +duration btw. +duration was way more powerful then +cond for a pistol cond build)

I also do the math based on a full 2600 armor target. Something, only a few npcs/targets have. light armor is 920. 916 base tough. +764 toughness needed to get 2600.
Med is 1064. 916 base tough, +620 toughness needed.
heavy is 1211. +473 needed. (obviously, that one is pretty easy.)

Adding the bonus condition damage would just make the direct damage dps values even higher.

I’ve never said cond should be ignored. Simply that it should not be the focus. Direct scales much better. Cond damage is a nice bonus on top of it.
30 firearms. Might stacking with juggernaut, or hgh. Gives you plenty of cond. more then you need. The focus should always be on power.

Casia.4281:

Adding the bonus condition damage would just make the direct damage dps values even higher.

I’ve never said cond should be ignored. Simply that it should not be the focus. Direct scales much better. Cond damage is a nice bonus on top of it.
30 firearms. Might stacking with juggernaut, or hgh. Gives you plenty of cond. more then you need. The focus should always be on power.

Are you being intentionally obtuse?

I was specifically pointing out that you have a horrible habit of neglecting to add in the direct damage of attacks from condition damage builds into the specific attacks over all damage.. So why your ignoring that and speaking directly to adding condition damage into direct damage builds is beyond me.

As well, you declare that condition do not compare to direct damage. That is an incorrect statement you have mad repeatedly. This is one of the repeated cases in which you cherry pick a specific direct damage build and skill set and compare it to your cherry picked condition damage build, in which you stack the deck in your build choice and then make a broad blanket statement that is not fully true.

As in your last post, with the pistol #1 skill you mention damage in terms of basic single target bleed damage, and that damage only, when it is very ordinary for conditions build to have burn chance on crits, you neglect that fact that rune of earth will put bleeds on multiple targets (as does sharpshooter), and you absolutely neglect to accredit the direct damage that the pistol #1 skill inflicts. You mention coated bullets that demonstrates, naked, and with no other traits invested yet, the character in that scenario has 18% crit chance, which you conveniently never figure the pistol #1 skill either.

Casia.4281:

I just get tired of repeating myself, and doing the math over and over and over. so I simplify it sometimes.

It is not called “simplifying”, when you only simplify the side of the equation that benefits your argument, yet take the time to complicate the side of the equation that supports your argument. It is called cheating, and it is never actually “math” as you repeatedly claim, when you do not actually do the math, because you stack the deck by simplifying it in a manner that benefits your point at the time.

This is a dps thread. The topic is dps.
If you want to skip dps traits, skip dps stats, and skip dps gear.

Then yes. condition does more then power on pistols, and possibly EG.

In fact I clearly stated as such.
But if you make any attempt to trait, and gear for damage, direct damage scales dramatically more then condition damage, even when we stack the deck in condition damages favor with high armor and no cleansing.

kazi.6438:

-snip-

Can I get some clarification, I thought PvE skills weren’t allowed in WvW.

p1 is a 2s bleed.
42.5+.05*cond per stack per second.
so 85+.1 per shot. cond. to direct hits.

Rabid jewel is 1560 prec, 923 cond, 1560 toughnes.
49% crit and 1223 cond with 30 firearms.
I won’t specific the rest of the points. Alch will give might for cond/power. Tools gives crit damage, etc.

207 damage over 2s per shot. .85s attack speed. on bleed.

.35 skill coeff.
952 average damage. on exotic pistol.
vs 2600 armor target.
916 power

5% vs bleeding. 30% chance of 3s bleed on crit. +10% crit vs under 50% hp target.
.35*952*916/2600=117 hit +49% chance of 150% damage.=203 average damage aoe.

So at base, 207 bleed damage over 2s, and 203 average direct damage aoe with 1 hit.
Now, obviously that 10% crit vs low hp targets directly buffs the direct damage as well. But well ignore that.
Target the maimed 5% to bleeding target.
That is pretty consistent. After 1 shot, that target will be bleeding.
203*1.05%=213.

So let me say this. RABID gear. prec, tough, condition. we already are dealing MORE single target direct damage without including vul or coated bullets yet.
Precise sights. 50% chance of vul on crit. 25% chance after that 50% chance of crit.
Every stack of vul you put on, or allies put on is 1% increase to direct, and only direct damage.

Sharpshooter. ok back to bleeds.
A 30% chance of 49% is 14.7%. This is aoe at least. A 3 bleed is 310 damage.
Average 46 damage per shot. Not bad mind you.

But coated bullets. The direct bleed doesn’t hit aoe. sharpshooter does.
Single target double hit.
Crit chance for vul doubles. But we won’t add that. only the base 213×2
426 direct damage aoe
1 207 bleed from direct hit, and 92 average aoe. from sharpshooter.

The thing to see here is how poorly sharpshooter really scales. its a minor damage buff.
The aoe damage coated bullets puts out via direct damage dramatically outpaces cond damage.
Again, that was only a single double hit. triple hitting, quad hitting? only goes to make direct even farther. As well as vul stacks.

And now, if we did the math in berzerker gear, with crit damage, and power. can you even imagine? or if we targeted light or medium armored targets. Again, Im proving direct deals more damage vs HIGH armored targets in a condition build.. how crazy is that?

The rest of the skills.
PDV is .4 per hit, for 2 power scaling.
Also gains from the 5% target the weak.
84+.1 per hit. 5 hits, for 420+610=1030 over 10s.
+230 ave from sharpshooter? hrm.
.4*952*916/2600=134 hit +49% chance of 150% damage=233 ave x5=1163
Poison scales less, but with sharpshooter, cond overall scales more, without including 5% maimed, vul, etc. huh. closer then I thought Ill admit.

Static.
.4 per hit.
pve confuse is 130+.15*cond=313/stack
spvp confuse is 65+.075*cond=157/stack
2 stacks per shot.
First of all. Confuse is strong. Ill admit that right away. But your target has to use a skill to deal the damage. And if they use multiple skills they will take damage multiple times. so it hard to really compare the two.
The direct hit is direct and happens every time.
But its a 12s CD, not really relevant to dps anyway. And a double/triple hit with coated bullets is more dps. Static is for the confuse/blind.
90% of your dps is pistol 1.

Blowtorch
Burn wins this one hands down.
And adds a nice chunk of constant dps to the pile. 317, which can be added back to the top figure really.
This is where if you don’t have coated bullets, cond can take the lead again. But if you do have coated bullets, it doesn’t.
and again, this is a full cond damage build. Over 50% of your damage is still direct single target. Aoe 80% is direct.

If we add static discharge? direct damage.

so again, a BUNKER build
Which will be pistols, but not coated bullets.
Turrets, which do not scale with anything.
Inventions, and alch, which do not have +power, +prec, or +crit damage, then yeah.
woo cond damage. A singular stat will gain more. Go cond. (while I laugh at your anemic damage.)

And finally, a power-oriented build will usually have terrible condition DPS when wielding p/p. p/p is better if you spec not only condition damage, but also precision! I like to put 2 different sigils on my pistols, the earth sigil (30% chance to bleed on crit) and the one which has a 30% chance to freeze on crit. It makes kiting a lot better. Combine this with the fact that you’re inflicting a max amount of vulnerability on your target and p/p works quite well because the bleeds and poison damages continue to harass your enemy even when combat is being interrupted. In PvP however the mesmer is still going to pwn you due to the fact that he can transfer his conditions to you.

So yeah, if you do decide to go p/p then precision should be your primary stat, not cond, cond should be a secondary stat and power never quite goes to waste though you shouldnt focus on it.

Coincidentally, high precision builds also tend to work well with flamethrower as the main kit since crits on flamethrower tend to cause extra burning damage and you are gonna proc a lot of crits if you are precision oriented.

uh well. if you are going p/p, power, then crit, then crit damage should be your focus.
you get 300 “free” prec from 30 firearms. as well as 300 “free” cond damage.
This means power will be scaling with your free crit %.

If you do a might build, note that it does give power and cond damage. Again, more cond that you do not need to itemize for. While the power is scaling off your crit.
Power and crit should admittedly be kept fairly even if you can. Each makes the other better.

Ruby jewels are kindof op.
3% crit damage on them. http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Exquisite_Ruby_Jewel
While a coral jewel is 15 cond. http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Exquisite_Coral_Jewel

So according to this, 3% crit damge is worth 15 cond?
Well look at:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ruby_Orichalcum_Ring_of_the_Berserker
Full ring. 3% crit damage..
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Coral_Orichalcum_Ring_of_the_Rampager
full ring.. 48 cond damage.

wait… is 3% crit damage worth 48 or 15 cond damage?
Pretty sure ruby jewels are supposed to be 1%, not 3% crit damage. Take a look at ascended gear. They scale in the same way. crit damage % scaling way beyond cond.

Cond dealing damage over time as a good thing is a logical fallacy.
There is no situation where 400 damage instantly is not better then 400 damage over 5s.

Casia.4281:

no they dont. conditions do not come close to direct damage, even on pistols themselves.
And rifle outdamages pistols significantly the vast majority of the time. withough coated bullets is not even close. With coated bullets, rifle does more damage, unless pistols hit 3 times per target.

Are we only comparing Pistol 1 vs Rifle 1? Or Pistol Vs Rifle as a whole? Because as a whole, pistols are more DPS than rifle. Assuming that you’re the only burner/poisoner and you know how to rune.

no. it isn’t.
Ok, see my post where I just proved even in a condition damage build and gear, that pistols deal more direct damage then conditions?
Well, guess what, if we swapped that to zerkers, so they were scaling with high power, and crit damage, the pistol dps would be significantly higher.
And rifle? is even higher then that.
As rifle has the same attack speed, but hits for higher coeff, and much higher base.
pistol is 952 average, rifle is 1095. Seriously, that is huge.

Remember how pistol 1 is .35?
Rifle 1 is .65.
So coated bullet double hit, .35+35=.7, pistols do more!!
nope.

2000 power
.35*952*2000/2600=256*2=512
.65*1095*2000/2600=546 yeah. rifle still does more with a single hit.
(yeah the bleed can be added. 85+.1 puts pistol back over. Triple hitting does as well.
Of course, when we add the 10% rifle damage trait in, or any other + damage bonus, rifles raw damage takes over again, and scales it up higher, faster. )
Blunderbuss is 1.6 + 4 stacks of 4s bleed. 1360+ 1.6cond Thats more then PDV. same cooldown.

discharge on crit sigils are just as OP as static discharge, esp when compared to Earth.
Try testing stuff, and doing the math. please.

Again you use fail math Casia. For example you list explosive shot or static discharge. In both cases, you give them credit for condition damage and condition damage only. Guess what? at 100 condition damage or 1500 condition damage, my explosive shot still does a couple hundred direct damage. You always seem to conveniently ignore that fact.

Also, I believe “pve confuse is 130+.15*cond=313/stack” is inaccurate to my knowledge those numbers are not accurate it actual in game numbers. Yet you admit that, and still use it to claim you know for a fact how this damage compares to other damage. How do you make that claim knowing your numbers are wrong?

Casia.4281:

So at base, 207 bleed damage over 2s, and 203 average direct damage aoe with 1 hit.

I do not agree with this number either. More bleed damage then that in game. As well, In actuality My builds ALWAYS has more then 2 stacks of bleeds up. Usually more like 4-6. Again you make an effort to allow your ahem “math” ahem. To be inaccurate to reality.

So in all those bloated post, what are you exclaiming my average explosive shot to be? I see all of your inaccurate formulas, and alot of your inaccurate conclusion, as well as your accurate ones, and you never just make any actual statements as to what the damage is for a particular skill.

You throw all these numbers around, but I do not see what your suggesting explosive shots damage is? Figuring crit chance, crit damage, basic direct damage, and condition damage together, what exacly are you suggesting is my explosive shot damage?

So at base, 207 bleed damage over 2s, and 203 average direct damage aoe with 1 hit.

Static discharge is the only build that has what OP wants, but I wouldn’t recommend it. Unlike the glass cannon rifle warrior (which still has heavy armor even with no toughness) and the glass cannon thief (stealth), the static discharge build has very little utility.

coglin.1496:

Again you use fail math Casia. For example you list explosive shot or static discharge. In both cases, you give them credit for condition damage and condition damage only. Guess what? at 100 condition damage or 1500 condition damage, my explosive shot still does a couple hundred direct damage. You always seem to conveniently ignore that fact.

Also, I believe “pve confuse is 130+.15*cond=313/stack” is inaccurate to my knowledge those numbers are not accurate it actual in game numbers. Yet you admit that, and still use it to claim you know for a fact how this damage compares to other damage. How do you make that claim knowing your numbers are wrong?

Casia.4281:

So at base, 207 bleed damage over 2s, and 203 average direct damage aoe with 1 hit.

I do not agree with this number either. More bleed damage then that in game. As well, In actuality My builds ALWAYS has more then 2 stacks of bleeds up. Usually more like 4-6. Again you make an effort to allow your ahem “math” ahem. To be inaccurate to reality.

So in all those bloated post, what are you exclaiming my average explosive shot to be? I see all of your inaccurate formulas, and alot of your inaccurate conclusion, as well as your accurate ones, and you never just make any actual statements as to what the damage is for a particular skill.

You throw all these numbers around, but I do not see what your suggesting explosive shots damage is? Figuring crit chance, crit damage, basic direct damage, and condition damage together, what exacly are you suggesting is my explosive shot damage?

So at base, 207 bleed damage over 2s, and 203 average direct damage aoe with 1 hit.

Not to be rude. but can you not read?
“So at base, 207 bleed damage over 2s, and 203 average direct damage aoe with 1 hit”
right there. I included your direct hit. That entire long post was showing direct damage and condition damage in a rabid jewel build, which is prec/tough/cond.
Do not accuse me of ignoring the direct damage component, when that was the entire point of the post.

With a rabid jewel spvp set up, you have 916 power.
952 average damage.

1560 toughness, 1223 condition damage. (runes of course will increase this a bit.
if you go for +50% duration, you are looking at +75 cond iirc)
you will hit for 117 vs a 2600 armor target, and crit 49% of the time for 176.
Averaging 203 damage.
5% gain from target the maimed, 123 average hit, 213 average with crit included.

Im not sure you understand how bleeds work.
they run their full duration and drop off.
Having 2 or 10 stacks is irrelevant. how much it deals per shot is all that matters for bleeds. in this case, EACH shot of bleed is so 85+.1 per shot. cond. to direct hits.
or 85+122=207 damage over 2 s. you will see 104 tick 2 times with 1 shot.
you will see 3 stacks of bleed without sharpshooter procs, due to 2s duration and .85s cast speed.

checked pve cond.
no cond. level 80.
static is 260.
so 130/stack is accurate.
400 cond is 380 on skill use.
so .15 per stack is accurate as well.

ok zerkers ammy

1914 power
1860 prec
+30% crit damage
300 cond

p1 246 direct ave * .7 crit at 49%=330 average damage. 347 with target the maimed 5% (vul, fury, and 10% crit obviously making this even higher.

115bleed over 2s
sharpshooter average 127+.3=217*.49*.3=32 average dps
347 aoe single hit aoe
115 bleed single target.
and 32 average aoe from sharpshooter.
coated bullets.
694 aoe average on double hit.
115 single target, and 64 aoe bleed from sharpshooter average.

PDV
420+150=570 over 10s.
160 av sharpshooter
280 hit= 376 average crit damage=1974 with5% and 5 hits.

Blowtorch
700hit, 735 with 5%=987
2531 burn

Your 1 skills is the vast majority if your damage. a .85s cd.
PDV is 8. static is 12, blowtorch is 12
9 explosive shots for every one PDV.
PDV is a 2 second cast, while static and blowtorch both are .85s.

in a 12s interval:
9 explosive shots. 1 pdv, 1 static, 1 blowtorch

Using 10 ep, 1pdv, and 1 blowtorch to compare zerkers vs rampagers.

6940 aoe double hit + 1974 sortof aoe pdv+987 aoe bowtorch
9901 direct

1115 piercing bleed
570 poison sortof aoe..
896 aoe sharpshooter
2531 burn aoe.
5112 cond
15016 damage applied over 12s interval
1251 dps

Your calculations assume lackluster cond and increased crit damage power. Isnt it better to assume that it’s better to have a higher crit % (via precision) than to have a higher crit damage boost? Or even better, to have a higher condition damage than a higher crit damage? I mean half the point of going pistols is to inflict conditions anyways and your sample stats seem to assume that the pistol user is using condition damage on his pistols only and maybe a minor piece of armor. This isnt anything close to a condition build but more of a ‘lets put condition on our pistols since thats what they do anyways’ build that pretty much ignores the fact that you need condition damage IN ADDITION to actual precision to do a decent amount of condition damage.

rabid is not lackluster cond its cond first, then prec/tough second.

I was using spvp gear for equal values. Vs pve where everyone might have bits and pieces.
Using spvp also ignores the ruby exquisite being OP issue.

Rabid spvp ammy is 923 cond damage.

2 rabid exotic pistols= 180 cond.
full set rabid armor=495 cond
full set carrion trinkets=461
1136 cond. (rabid is only rare drop for trinkets. carrion is power/vit/cond with cond first.)(did not count backpiece)

I did ignore the additional cond you would get from possible runes.
As 60% might duration, vs 50% bleed duration, issues come up. Which is better?
or even 20% might, and 20% all boons.

food also can complicate, with 40% duration food. which is pretty fantastic.

None of this changes the outcome.

I stacked the deck IN YOUR FAVOR, and cond still lost.

Add HGH, and might into the equation. what do you think happens?
Static discharge, 10-20 in tools? vul from allies.
Fury. Retaliation. Toolbelt skills.
What happens when you stop attacking targets in full toughness gear and heavy armor?

Redo the math vs a 2000 armor target and see where cond lands.

As the current system stands, the reason you go condition damage as an engineer primary is because your itemization and traits don’t allow you you stack sufficient power. If you’re 30 deep in Marksmanship and can’t be itemizing power because you’re going for crazy durability then your only option is to go cond because it’s your only way to get around enemy toughness.

Engineers also have very good condition output; they don’t do big long-duration conditions but instead continually apply shortlived ones, minimizing the effect of condition cleaners. So there is nice synergy there.

So there is a place for condition damage, but only with specific builds that can’t itemize for power for whatever reason.

Either way, pistol needs to be improved in either its ROF (the way it used to be, I’m told) or its damage (which would be disappointing).

I appear to be talking in circles at this point. I prove a point, and people just repeat the same stuff without looking at the math.
300 cond from firearms was 115 damage per shot from cond on the bleed. + 32 av sharpshooter.
1223 cond from rabid+firearms was 207 damage per shot from cond on the bleed. + 46 ave sharpshooter.
Increased cond more then 400%, and damage increased less then100%.

You say, traiting for cond. yet, name the traits that scale cond damage. sharpshooter.
explosives.(does anyone spec explosives with cond for +duration?) 6% chance to bleed on explosions. Every other trait scales with power/crit/crit damage.

The only situation where cond> power or crit is if you are gearing cond/vit/toughness for some reason. Which really. your damage would be so terrible, its not worth discussing. even in a tank build, it would be laughable. You would be building far too tanky. Ignoring the fact this is a dps thread. Wherein cond has been proven mathematically inferior even in high armor situations. so stop saying, “but vs high armor!!!” I just proved it still is less, then crit, alone.

Regardless,
I think pistol 1 is supposed to be .5s attack speed.

A ranger shortbow is for example. While longbow is 1.25s.
At live. pistol 1 scaled the same as static/PDV.
.4 coeff.
Then in spvp it was reduced to .35 in the tooltip. however, still did .4 anyway.
Eventually, this was fixed and it did .35 in spvp. .4 in pve.
Then, it was reduced to .35 in both pve, and spvp. At the same time the timers were shown. P1 listed at 3/4s. (its .85)
Week later the tooltip was changed to show .5s. The attack rate is still .85.

Without coated bullets, p1 is MASSIVELY inferior to rifle 1. Less then half the damage, even with the bleed.

Casia.4281:

I appear to be talking in circles at this point. I prove a point, and people just repeat the same stuff without looking at the math.
300 cond from firearms was 115 damage per shot from cond on the bleed. + 32 av sharpshooter.
1223 cond from rabid+firearms was 207 damage per shot from cond on the bleed. + 46 ave sharpshooter.
Increased cond more then 400%, and damage increased less then100%.

I agree with this assessment.

Casia.4281:

You say, traiting for cond. yet, name the traits that scale cond damage. sharpshooter.
explosives.(does anyone spec explosives with cond for +duration?) 6% chance to bleed on explosions. Every other trait scales with power/crit/crit damage.

You’d do this with some kits, under the misguided assumption those kits work well.

Casia.4281:

The only situation where cond> power or crit is if you are gearing cond/vit/toughness for some reason. Which really. your damage would be so terrible, its not worth discussing. even in a tank build, it would be laughable.

In WvW, there are very good applications of a 0/30/0/30/10 (or 0/30/10/30/0) Flamethrower build that uses backpack regenerator, flamethrower, and elixir gun. And that build will only get better. For that specific build when you max toughness and vitality, condition damage can make sense because your damage is so bad no matter what you do with your power stacking that there’s no sense optimizing for it.

You’re there to soak up hits, cc, and provide healing and light fields for your group. It is an inglorious, boring, terrible job. But in that specific type of vanguard build for WvW, condition damage is superior because your DD options are pathetic and your condition damage options scale independently of that.

I am not sure I agree with the itemization rule that 1 condition damage = 1 power or 1 precision. But it is absolutely the case that if your power is rubbish and you follow that build, condition damage is your only real way to do any sort of appreciable DPS, even if it’s mediocre.

I’m not sure why you’re arguing against this. There are constant offsets you’re ignoring.

Casia.4281:

You would be building far too tanky. Ignoring the fact this is a dps thread. Wherein cond has been proven mathematically inferior even in high armor situations.

Only in PvP would it be “too tanky.” In WvW and PvE this build has uses. Especially if you can get confusion in there. Confusion is brokenly powerful in WvW, and you’re seeing a lot of builds start to reflect that.

Casia.4281:

so stop saying, “but vs high armor!!!” I just proved it still is less, then crit, alone.

You demonstrated (not proved, by the way) the derivative of the damage function is superior. I don’t disagree But you’re neglecting those troublesome constant offsets. In one specific kind of support tank build condition damage is better because you simply cannot maintain your goal of being an infinite and nigh-unkillable and highly obnoxious damage sink that does knockdowns, CCs, and heals for the group and not have rubbish direct damage. It is not possible. And given how much better damage other classes’ balance and offense builds do, I think you’re wasting your time when you gear an engineer for damage unless it’s support dps, and support DPS is a role that is losing popularity in WvW except when you’re low level and you can only itemize for one or two stats.

It’s sort of frustrating you won’t yield this point, because I agree with your math. I think you’re arguing against a different point than I making.

All I can say is that when sigils effect kits I am speccing for flamethrower and kitten the math. My sick burns will be so long and hot that they shall melt the forums and scorch the sun!

Engineers can’t stack confuse enough to make a cond/confuse viable.
I’ll admit my mesmer on the other hand. I am very much considering cond/tough/vit.

EG and Flamethrower also scale with direct damage better then condition.
Both would serve better with power/vit/tough.
And frankly in the end, going full bore power/vit/tough is an incredibly bad idea.
If you are 30 alch, you don’t need any more vit at all really. You could split some power/tough/cond, and prec/tough/cond. (Valk ammy is power, tough, crit damage, and healing. perfect)
Your survival would be the same, and your offense would be dramatically higher.

Damage avoidance is far stronger then mitigation.
And hp buffs are numerous. in addition ample healing. stating for high mit is a mistake.
Especially when we start breaking down the numbers there.
Again, look above. High toughness is NOT countering high damage. so, some hp and toughness to reduce damage by a % is fine. but the majority if your avoidance needs to be active skill based on dodge, CC, etc.

That is all of course off the point.
Since this is a DPS thread.
And why any of you keep bringing up 100% tank builds in a dps thread, I still don’t know.
But regardless, Condition damage is inferior in all cases.

The above showed 600 prec, provided a larger dps gain for pistols then 923 condition damage(with coated bullets). So yes, even when building vit/tough, and only 1 dps stat. Condition damage looses. Power or prec is better.
(If you just have firearms, and its 300 prec, power wins. if you have hgh, or other means to stack might, more prec, wins as it will scale with your sharpshooter, and power from might)

Casia.4281:

High toughness is NOT countering high damage. so, some hp and toughness to reduce damage by a % is fine. but the majority if your avoidance needs to be active skill based on dodge, CC, etc.

Evidently I am not very good at those active skills yet, since in the only two dungeons I’ve done so far with my group, AC and CM, like the rest of my group I died over a dozen times in each. I am trying to figure out what I should get for Exotics at 80 when I reach it in a couple of weeks, so that I can survive these things better. I will probably do a bit of WvW once I hit 80, but am mainly a PvE player.

I’m fine with spamming grenades for main dps. I plan to add some Vitality and Toughness since I stink at active survival, but for the damage side should I focus completely on Power, or try for more of a 50:50 split between Power and Precision, or even a 3-way split of Power/Precision/%crit for the dps side of gear?

Grenades are far and away the highest dps option. 2-3times everything else. (when speced grenadier and steel packed)
They admittedly are not the best CC, avoidance weapon. Chill and blind. Both of which are quite good. but tied to the throw.
Chill not only slows movement, but slows recharge as well. Abilities take longer to come off cooldown. blind makes the next attack miss. only 1 attack mind you.

Additional survival tools vary on your build.
Elixir H throw has regen/protection 409 is major cleansing. Elixir R is full endurance for more dodging. as well as 6s cleanse, and self res. Elixir U can throw up a reflect/block wall. Supply drop stuns, and immobilizes(net turret)
Net turret itself is a very effective periodic immobilize.

Rifle has the net, and knockback. Can be traited to blind, which is not very reliable, however does reduce overall damage.

Pistols have static shot blind. very very effective, since is fast and on call. High skill based reward. Glue shot. immobalize and cripple, again ground target high skill based reward.
Shield block and daze.
And so on. many options really. What is right for you and your playstyle and all.

What do you have with grenades? 30 alch?
if so, you have 300 power from explosives, hgh is probably giving you power and cond.
I would recommend strength runes, I think. I have considered + 60% might runes, which gives 75 power, vs 165power, 5% damage while might is up, and+ 20% might duration. I feel the 5% damage wins. It should be up full time with elixir B.
Note, elixir B does not have any good defensive function. It is the antithesis of the rely on active skills. The retaliation is very nice of course. but the rest is damage increases. Probably a must for any offesive build, and certainly pve. but in pvp, consider if something like U, R, rocket boots, net turret or ram would not be more ideal. (or even FT for blind/knockback.)
So, stat wise you have power on runes, power in explosives, power in might. You need prec scale off that. Try to get closer to 50% crit, then back to power.

Also, note, ruby exquisite jewels seem to be over itemized. the crit damage they have on them is out of line, with the crit damage % on other items.
Thus, ammy, rings, earrings, and back. orichalum ruby . of the berzerker is what I recommend.

This leaves your weapon and armor.
If you are 30 alch, you have 3000 hp from that. and thus 18500 iirc, without WvW buff.

As long as kits do not get stats on weapon. And rifle is heavy melee. Get some of your toughness on rifle. Swap to it when you are in close, and need to tank.
Swapping to grenades when you want to kill something, that is CC’d, or in pve.
Frankly any situation where you need to worry about taking damage, you should be in rifle. Theif? mesmer? d/d elem? too mobile for grenades. Rifle lock on is what you need, and CC.
(not going to lie. I just though of this, and blew my own mind. Why haven’t I been doing this? Is there a 179 toughness rifle? Rifle is good damage, but really there is NO reason for me to be running around with a zerker rifle in a grenade build)
*edit yep. Arah’s has one. 179tough, 128power/prec. Looks ideal.

On armor, A bit of each is fine. why not 2 pieces power/tough/vit. 2 of power/prec/crit damage and 2 power/prec/tough?

Casia.4281:

Your survival would be the same, and your offense would be dramatically higher.

Damage avoidance is far stronger then mitigation.

It is not a binary equation. You can have both. And the math on what happens when a high toughness, high healing, high vitality player also gets regeneration is pretty clear. It’s why Guardians are so tough to kill even with low base hp. Because frankly… Engineer as the “master of CC” is something of a misnomer.

If you think I have written off Engineers for damage from talking with me, I have. There is no reason to every build an engineer for damage as the system is currently defined in the domains I play in. You are always outshined significantly by another class that has better avoidance mechanisms.

As of right now, I find the class useless except for as a healbot. If you want a glass cannon DD support, take an Elementalist. They can easily beat grenade spam with a trivial rotation on staff, and they have better escapes and invulns which, unlike engineer, they get to keep while outputting damage. The idea that grenade spam somehow beats a 30/*/30 elementalist staff build on AoE is completely wrong when you throw arcane power in the mix.

We should make a separate thread for that discussion.

Again, look above.

I have to be honest, that last post? I cannot read it. It’s all but incoherent to me.

High toughness is NOT countering high damage. so, some hp and toughness to reduce damage by a % is fine. but the majority if your avoidance needs to be active skill based on dodge, CC, etc. [/quote]

Since this is a DPS thread.

The idea of an engineer dps thread is the problem. The class is broken for DPS right now and should not be used as such.

Thank you for running the numbers casia. I had been specced for Pow > Prec > Cond and noticed that pistol DPS is only slightly lower than rifle DPS, but this was probably due to the fact that cond (which is scaled terribly with engies as your evidense) was de-emphasized on my build. Assuming that you’re right than that means that direct damage via prec and maybe pow would be the ONLY way to do any amount of sizable damage with the engineer profession. Which further emphasizes use of the Rifle/Nade/EG builds that you’re seeing now.

Still, and although this is a thread about pure DPS — I do not think you should underestimate the usefulness of the chill inflicted by the ice sigil and how often it procs on +prec builds. Condition breaking abilities which might be wasted on bleed/poison could mean that the person is easy prey for a chilled and crippled state inflicted by glue shot and the sigil combined without needing any further steps in kit rotation other than to switch to pistols while your favorite kit is recharging — Net shot on the other hand could be mitigated ‘unshakeable’ or a single stun breaker which any PvPer is likely to carry in their arsenel.

Casia’s right on.. every account she’s stated. I think the only people willing to argue with her are people too stubborn to be dissuaded from thinking a 2s bleed is worth investing in.

Let’s compare:

Engineers – can’t break a 2.5s bleed duration on weapons. 4+ seconds with elixir gun, which is still a terrible duration.

Necromancers – 14+s bleeds easily via scepter and proper traiting. 0.7 condition damage ratio per auto attack, versus ~0.1 scaling.

Using an engineer for condition damage is like using a ranger for healing power support (and to be clear on this comparison – no healing spring does not actually heal beyond the regeneration boon, it just pops off a condition with every tick). Pick up grenades. Using multiple kits to boost your DPS is fine – I personally run elixir gun and toolkit to supplement grenade kit. Acid Bomb, Prybar, and Throw Wrench actually add to the already high DPS, while bringing other skills to the table to be utilized (namely super elixir, gear shield, magnet, and healing mist).

Casia.4281:

Engineers can’t stack confuse enough to make a cond/confuse viable.

This is one of those times that you demonstrate you d onto comprehend what “viable” means.

Casia.4281:

High toughness is NOT countering high damage

This comment is just inaccurate. It demonstrates again that you will intentional post misinformation or apparently post comments that conflict with plain old common sense.
For every 1 toughness, incoming damage per attack, gets reduced by about approximately .305

I have done several post with real math on all of our attacks, vitality compared to toughness as defensive value. The difference is, I didn’t “simplify” or “modify” as you do to get to where I want to go.

Longer bleed durations arent important if the DPS on the bleed is high. Think for example if bleed did say 200 damage overall, then what would be more useful having a longer or a shorter bleed? Almost certainly the shorter bleed would be better since the damage takes effect sooner and you will be less likely to heal it off. Furthermore, having stacks of bleed applied so frequently (every half second) means that your condition removers arent going to really do anything since you’ll just accumulate those stacks quickly anyways. Regardless, it would be better if the absolute damage in bleed scaled a bit more either in duration (with same damage per second) or in plain DPS without affecting duration.

This is in opposition to poison which stacks duration. 1 minute of poison on your enemy isnt going to save your hide anyways since for most high damage/low HP enemies (like your typical risen) you are going to want to end the fight in seconds before you are overwhelmed by numbers and stacking poison duration is not going to help you one bit if you have too many of em on you.

Damage is"
skill coeff*weapon*power/(armor+toughness)

base values of power and toughness are 916 at 80.
Armor is 1064 on medium armor for an engi.

skill*weapon*916/(916+1064)=damage
Rifle 1. .65*1095*916/1980=329.27
+ 1 power. .65*1095*917/1980=329.63 =1.9% damage increase.
+ 1 toughness .65*1095*916/1981=329.108 = .49% damage decrease.
+1 both. .65*1095*917/1981=329.47 =.6% increase.

+100 both.
.65*1095*1016/2080= 347.66 =5.58% damage increase.

Toughness will be a percentage based on your armor.

Casia.4281:

This leaves your weapon and armor.
If you are 30 alch, you have 3000 hp from that. and thus 18500 iirc, without WvW buff.

As long as kits do not get stats on weapon. And rifle is heavy melee. Get some of your toughness on rifle. Swap to it when you are in close, and need to tank.
Swapping to grenades when you want to kill something, that is CC’d, or in pve.
Frankly any situation where you need to worry about taking damage, you should be in rifle. Theif? mesmer? d/d elem? too mobile for grenades. Rifle lock on is what you need, and CC.
(not going to lie. I just though of this, and blew my own mind. Why haven’t I been doing this? Is there a 179 toughness rifle? Rifle is good damage, but really there is NO reason for me to be running around with a zerker rifle in a grenade build)
*edit yep. Arah’s has one. 179tough, 128power/prec. Looks ideal.

On armor, A bit of each is fine. why not 2 pieces power/tough/vit. 2 of power/prec/crit damage and 2 power/prec/tough?

Thanks for the tips; I am indeed 30 Explosives/30 alchemy/10 Tools (for Speedy Kits when traveling, Kit Refinement in fights). Well, I will be 30 alchemy when I reach 80 at least. I often switch to Bombs in melee since Smoke Bomb, from what I can tell, is one of our most effective CCs even after the nerf, but that is a good idea about a Toughness rifle. I also tend to carry a pistol/shield, and try to use those sometimes so I can get used to those skills, the 4 and 5 skills on those may be very handy in dungeon situations. 5 seems to be the Engineer’s only reliable projectile reflection. I just don’t survive well enough for P/P.

I was indeed thinking of mixing and matching armor, I just don’t have a good enough feel yet for the overall damage system here to be sure exactly what the best mix of precision and crit damage are with power. For dungeons medium term dps, i.e. over the course of 20-30 seconds, seems to be more important than burst damage in 2-3 seconds, so you can start looking at averages for crits, especially with grenades which get a lot of them.