Guild Wars 2

On the kit refinement nerf

Once again you are punishing the engineer class for being “versatile”.

Let me get these things straight : You DON’T want us to use multiple kits, you DON’T want us to swap in and out of kits during a fight, You completely kill the many ways the engi could kill a player (For example : tool kit magnet into 100 nades burst).

What else are you planning for the engineer class Anet?

Toolkit magnet + 100nade is still usable if you jump while switching to toolkit. But kitten it’s gonna be annoying

Kardiamond.6952:

Toolkit magnet + 100nade is still usable if you jump while switching to toolkit. But kitten it’s gonna be annoying

And you think this is how it’s supposed to work LOL?

Not at all.

I’m as mad as you right now.

Especially since I was considering switching to a multikit conditions build.

Maybe the change in the trait is a way the devs tell us to not use 100 Nades build, because it a lame build that show no true skill r use of what the engineer can really do

Kardiamond.6952:

Not at all.

I’m as mad as you right now.

Especially since I was considering switching to a multikit conditions build.

That is what I run and I can’t tell you how much it relies on every kit refinement to put on the condis.

Teldo and 5Gauge, our best Engineer, used it. Watch their video and tell me they have no skills. If you think 100nade was lame, you just didn’t know how to use it. using 25 different skills during a fight, with bait and rotation.

What pro build are you using good sir?

Azimuth.7091:

Maybe the change in the trait is a way the devs tell us to not use 100 Nades build, because it a lame build that show no true skill r use of what the engineer can really do

Oh, you mean the unreliable burst build that is basically a gamble and is just as squishy or maybe squishier than all the other glass builds.

Yapp.

Might as well give 100 blades a 5 minute cooldown since it’s such a “strong” attack.

waka.9826:

Kardiamond.6952:

Not at all.

I’m as mad as you right now.

Especially since I was considering switching to a multikit conditions build.

That is what I run and I can’t tell you how much it relies on every kit refinement to put on the condis.

I know man, I was using it in tPvP. It’s a shame..

Azimuth.7091:

Maybe the change in the trait is a way the devs tell us to not use 100 Nades build, because it a lame build that show no true skill r use of what the engineer can really do

Like my warrior who sits at back of crowd and pops frenzy + Kill shoot 3+ people at once for 12K is why we are suppose to play

This probably the worst way to nerf Kit Refinement someone could come up with. It wrecks build diversity with kits and Kit Refinement in general. Managing more mental cooldowns isn’t exactly fun.

1. my build s more tanker that nades
2 i dont see my build getting nerf
3 i still going on as a beast

Ayestes.1273:

This probably the worst way to nerf Kit Refinement someone could come up with. It wrecks build diversity with kits and Kit Refinement in general. Managing more mental cooldowns isn’t exactly fun.

Before I actually watched the opponent to see if I needed to reset my burn on them with FT refinement, or if I had condis on me. Or if I was getting low on HP and had condis on me and my team mates I would use elixir gun refinement.

Now it’s just going to be me randomly swapping in and out of all my kits hoping one of them procs properly, yay thanks anet for this change.

Azimuth.7091:

1. my build s more tanker that nades
2 i dont see my build getting nerf
3 i still going on as a beast

This isn’t about if your build is still good or not, this is just making less builds possible or ideal which is exactly the opposite of what anet should be doing.

Azimuth.7091:

1. my build s more tanker that nades
2 i dont see my build getting nerf
3 i still going on as a beast

You look so full of yourself.

Learn the 100nade build before saying random kitten about it.

Why dont they apply internal cooldown to dodging arcana for Eles ?

learn the 100 nades..
History before 100 nades what post i was around for a month it was nerf 3 times before people truly got into it. the build does no show of what the class can really do other than say i press buttons.

also once of your skill go on CD the hold build turns south if the person your fight isa ele or a another engi with a diff build. must i go on?

@Silver There is an internal cooldown for Evasive Arcana: 10 seconds

@Azimuth

What is your build? That OHHH pro build that everyone should use to showcase their skill.

Also I can’t read you last sentence?

not saying my build is pro , say 100 nades is the only build out there.
i use a build that maxes out confusion and retaliation along with laying down blinds.

My opinion is that the idea of "100nades was someone just wanting to play a thief, i dont see any real engi traits in it unlike tankcat, condition overload, Elixir build, etc
you can call me kitten, troll or what ever but just look how you play and compare to what other engis with different builds can do.

Lets see… Our 4 kit refinement traits
Cleansing Fire (Already 10 seconds)
Super Elixir (20 seconds to 10 seconds)
Melee Grenade Barrage (20 seconds to 10 seconds)
Box of Nails (10 seconds)

Now lets say we connect with all of them for damage or something.

Box of Nails → Cripple + Bleed
Cleansing Fire → Purge 1 condition and some burning
Barrage → Damage

This is overpowered how?

Daigle.8497:

Lets see… Our 4 kit refinement traits
Cleansing Fire (Already 10 seconds)
Super Elixir (20 seconds to 10 seconds)
Melee Grenade Barrage (20 seconds to 10 seconds)
Box of Nails (10 seconds)

Now lets say we connect with all of them for damage or something.

Box of Nails -> Cripple + Bleed
Cleansing Fire -> Purge 1 condition and some burning
Barrage -> Damage

This is overpowered how?

It honeslty seems like anet just wants us to use 1 kit. Thanks for our “unique” class mechanic that we already have to equip unlike ELE anet.

Azimuth.7091:

not saying my build is pro , say 100 nades is the only build out there.
i use a build that maxes out confusion and retaliation along with laying down blinds.

My opinion is that the idea of "100nades was someone just wanting to play a thief, i dont see any real engi traits in it unlike tankcat, condition overload, Elixir build, etc
you can call me kitten, troll or what ever but just look how you play and compare to what other engis with different builds can do.

So Engineer can’t burst? Why?

Where does it say that?

Each day, I do duel with guardian, warrior, elem, mesmer that can go for 30 sec to 2 minutes.

I assure you, 100nade is far from being only one combo.

Kit refiniment nerf is only thing they are nerfing on engi, otherwise its “buffs”. I use 4 kit build so it might do a little harm to that. Like.. a big one It will just need more timing.

Omnio.3652:

Kit refiniment nerf is only thing they are nerfing on engi, otherwise its “buffs”. I use 4 kit build so it might do a little harm to that. Like.. a big one It will just need more timing.

Too bad the other buffs are just junk buffs. Carry on

Does SE even heal as much as it did before it got nerfed in december? I haven’t checked it out.

Guys, you can still 100 nades. You just have to run around with toolkit out before engaging. Magnet → Rifle, Net Shot → Grenade Barrage + Grenade Kit.

GREAT, just GREAT, they even managed to artificially force engineer (the supposedly “versatile” class) into single kit builds… and please, PLEASE don’t get me started on med-kit.

So… now… we can’t use more than one kit, that means one kit of choice, healing turret as a must, the usual stun breaker/situational utility/stomper and…. what exactly?…. I can’t find a truly reliable option to that slot.

Rfreak.6591:

GREAT, just GREAT, they even managed to artificially force engineer (the supposedly “versatile” class) into single kit builds… and please, PLEASE don’t get me started on med-kit.

So… now… we can’t use more than one kit, that means one kit of choice, healing turret as a must, the usual stun breaker/situational utility/stomper and…. what exactly?…. I can’t find a truly reliable option to that slot.

And why can’t you use Med Kit?

@Alkron.1345

Because it bombs my kit refinement usage with a dumb, pointless and completely unnecessary “BOOM!”

Rfreak.6591:

@Alkron.1345

Because it bombs my kit refinement usage with a dumb, pointless and completely unnecessary “BOOM!”

No it doesn’t, read the description. Med Kit is not included in that.

@Alkron.1345

Ok they didn’t kill the med-kit but whoever was running elixir-gun AND flamethrower’s now kinda screwed (I’m one of them).

What kind of versatility and build diversity did they want to get out of this patch I wonder, if I can use just one kit (and yea a med-kit)?

And for those who are wondering, the kit-refinement skills don’t exactly share a global cooldown, not the same at least, it’s the plain old CD just that you can’t use more than one in a build efficiently due to another hidden CD on top of a previously hidden CD, ultimately having a double hidden CD.

@RFreak

Toolit and Grenade cooldown seems to not be working tho.

We have report saying you can still use both those refinement without CD.

So… they DIDN’T nerf 100nade. They nerfed everything ELSE.

Perhaps the most ham-fisted and clueless nerf to this class I’ve seen to date. I can’t figure out the reason for this change, other than aNet wants this class running in single kits.

I’ve gone from being able to support my group by KS-ing FT for a quick personal condition removal, then dropping into EG (minor heal, condition removal and light field), dropping and exploding the healing turret for some heals and area retaliation to plodding along with one KS every 10 seconds… ut that’s all ok I guess, they’ve added some DPS to some of our other sklls…woo hoo.

Good skills aNet, can’t wait till the next patch.

so they equalized the CD of all kits to 10 second and removed the ability to drop 4 kits all at once.

sounds like kittens are mewling that they can’t rofl foes by button mashing any more. I mean I’ve read numerous times that people felt they were just mashing buttons with KD hoping to hit something, and now it is timed and reliable and there every 10 seconds.

on top of an exploit fix (which you all seem to call a nerf) they buffed 3 other kits. and you still complain.

nakoda.4213:

so they equalized the CD of all kits to 10 second and removed the ability to drop 4 kits all at once.

sounds like kittens are mewling that they can’t rofl foes by button mashing any more. I mean I’ve read numerous times that people felt they were just mashing buttons with KD hoping to hit something, and now it is timed and reliable and there every 10 seconds.

on top of an exploit fix (which you all seem to call a nerf) they buffed 3 other kits. and you still complain.

Well its currently not working correctly as you can still tool kit kr into grenade kr. However elixer gun and ft kr does kick in the cd.

But working properly, theres a global 10 sec cd for kr so you can’t chain kr. However kits still have their own internal cd too. So grenade kr still has the 20 sec cd.

I see. (@work still, so haven’t had a chance to play yet) but my commentary stands, they fixed an exploit (4x insta-KD procs) and buffed three kits.

this is a good day for engies.

Nakoda…

I’m not sure how exploity the kit refinement thing was even before the nerf, and it’s not like people play 4-kit to abuse the procs on the kit refinement, either. The most useful option was the 2x condition cleansing from FT/EG, but even those had their own cooldowns.

The other most powerful one is the melee-range Grenade barrage, and our box of nails, but even they have their cooldowns.

Even landing all 4 in one go: how exactly is that overpowered?

Mesmers don’t really have a GCD on their shatter skills that’s quite as steep(.25 seconds is a workaround so they can’t use all 4 shatters on the same 3 clones/phantasm)
Elementalists, although their Evasive arcana has global cooldown, their elemental attunement does not. They can theoretically do a full cycle for buffs.

Thieves can drop caltrops all the time whenever they want. No cooldowns (except for endurance regen etc)

I do appreciate the buffs from Anet, but.. did they really have to nerf the bugs that are in our favor first?

nakoda.4213:

I see. (@work still, so haven’t had a chance to play yet) but my commentary stands, they fixed an exploit (4x insta-KD procs) and buffed three kits.

this is a good day for engies.

Kardiamond.6952:

Toolkit magnet + 100nade is still usable if you jump while switching to toolkit. But kitten it’s gonna be annoying

I don’t play an engie, but how Anet is harming the engie with every patch is beyond comprehension. This quote just shows how messed their game and design is.

Daigle.8497:

Nakoda…

I’m not sure how exploity the kit refinement thing was even before the nerf, and it’s not like people play 4-kit to abuse the procs on the kit refinement, either. The most useful option was the 2x condition cleansing from FT/EG, but even those had their own cooldowns.

The other most powerful one is the melee-range Grenade barrage, and our box of nails, but even they have their cooldowns.

Even landing all 4 in one go: how exactly is that overpowered?

Mesmers don’t really have a GCD on their shatter skills that’s quite as steep(.25 seconds is a workaround so they can’t use all 4 shatters on the same 3 clones/phantasm)
Elementalists, although their Evasive arcana has global cooldown, their elemental attunement does not. They can theoretically do a full cycle for buffs.

Thieves can drop caltrops all the time whenever they want. No cooldowns (except for endurance regen etc)

I do appreciate the buffs from Anet, but.. did they really have to nerf the bugs that are in our favor first?

nakoda.4213:

I see. (@work still, so haven’t had a chance to play yet) but my commentary stands, they fixed an exploit (4x insta-KD procs) and buffed three kits.

this is a good day for engies.

im not speaking about other classes, im speaking about engineer, the question as it is put is this: do you honestly think it was intended to be able to use: box of nails, grenade barrage, heal kit (twice! a bug often bragged about), and a full condition cleanse all within less than 3 seconds?

op or not (a point which is irrelevant, like it or not), do you honestly think that is the intended use?

I don’t.

im often accused of playing the ignorance is bliss card, but the truth is that ignorance is the willing act of refusing to see a perspective other than the one you already have.

stop being ignorant, start being receptive and adaptive.

and for kitten sake, stop ignoring the notion that this is a game, and there are many ways to play it with enjoyment. they fixed a bug that reduced the efficacy of a single trait that had the potential to be exploited. I never once said that everyone who uses KR exploits.

your inductive reasoning is flawed.

Not too dissimilar to the ele’s Evasive Arcana adjustments.
Be thankful that kit swapping doesn’t have similar cooldowns to attunement switching

Azimuth.7091:

1. my build s more tanker that nades
2 i dont see my build getting nerf
3 i still going on as a beast

play style is as important as the build you use, if your build is so good let us see it pm ingame we’ll meet up, if you can out DPS 100nades or outlive my full glasscannon engi i will give 10g!

besides, if you’re build isnt gettin nerfed is because no one uses it :| lol

google.3709:

Azimuth.7091:

1. my build s more tanker that nades
2 i dont see my build getting nerf
3 i still going on as a beast

play style is as important as the build you use, if your build is so good let us see it pm ingame we’ll meet up, if you can out DPS 100nades or outlive my full glasscannon engi i will give 10g!

besides, if you’re build isnt gettin nerfed is because no one uses it :| lol

why do you still think the FT is intended to do as much dmg as a glasscannon nade build?

the FT is a (pow based) bunker weapon with ridiculous cond output thanks to it’s high crit and 10 hits every few seconds. it is not meant to burst like nades or even out dps nades.

you were good up to where you said playstyle is everything … yes, good, we agree.

everything else you said sounds like “narf narf narf”

toothless.1429:

Not too dissimilar to the ele’s Evasive Arcana adjustments.
Be thankful that kit swapping doesn’t have similar cooldowns to attunement switching

Atunement switching has stupidly strong effects tho lol and can be traited to be even more stupid, like gettin protection and stability for going on earth ? remove conditions, heals and gives AoE regeneration for switching to water? all we have is a box of nails.. lmao

not even close or nearly as OP as ele switching atonement

nakoda.4213:

google.3709:

Azimuth.7091:

1. my build s more tanker that nades
2 i dont see my build getting nerf
3 i still going on as a beast

play style is as important as the build you use, if your build is so good let us see it pm ingame we’ll meet up, if you can out DPS 100nades or outlive my full glasscannon engi i will give 10g!

besides, if you’re build isnt gettin nerfed is because no one uses it :| lol

why do you still think the FT is intended to do as much dmg as a glasscannon nade build?

the FT is a (pow based) bunker weapon with ridiculous cond output thanks to it’s high crit and 10 hits every few seconds. it is not meant to burst like nades or even out dps nades.

you were good up to where you said playstyle is everything … yes, good, we agree.

everything else you said sounds like “narf narf narf”

how are you gonna bunker on pve now without food ? :S i dislike FT because 1 burn means nothing, get runes of baltazar and kit refinement you can keep perma AOE burns you know, i met the weapon when it was GREAT and now is merely a shadow and tbh .. i had no idea he used FT… so stop overreacting , they were talking about 100nades… lol i play condition builds too yanno

I do appreciate the bug fixes and general improvements to the rest of the kits, and the amount of time Anet has put into the Engineer this round.

From how we engineers used to play before, with the whole keyboard orchestra, it wasn’t that far off from our normal combo operation, as we could have done the same combo (minus the box of nails), without Kit refinement.

The point is, with the new kit refinement, there is now a whole disjoint, in where swapping the kit with kit refinement will now hinder the use of other procs you may want to use.

Also, my inductive reasoning may be flawed, but I’m getting the attitude that the devs are putting resources into relatively insignificant bugs which are in our favor, over larger things.

At the end of the day, I’ll still play my engineer, but I would still like to know why that “bug” was fixed in such a way.

snip

im not speaking about other classes, im speaking about engineer, the question as it is put is this: do you honestly think it was intended to be able to use: box of nails, grenade barrage, heal kit (twice! a bug often bragged about), and a full condition cleanse all within less than 3 seconds?

op or not (a point which is irrelevant, like it or not), do you honestly think that is the intended use?

I don’t.

im often accused of playing the ignorance is bliss card, but the truth is that ignorance is the willing act of refusing to see a perspective other than the one you already have.

stop being ignorant, start being receptive and adaptive.

and for kitten sake, stop ignoring the notion that this is a game, and there are many ways to play it with enjoyment. they fixed a bug that reduced the efficacy of a single trait that had the potential to be exploited. I never once said that everyone who uses KR exploits.

your inductive reasoning is flawed.

nakoda.4213:

im not speaking about other classes, im speaking about engineer, the question as it is put is this: do you honestly think it was intended to be able to use: box of nails, grenade barrage, heal kit (twice! a bug often bragged about), and a full condition cleanse all within less than 3 seconds?

The only full condition cleanse engineers have is drink Elixir C; flamethrower and elixir gun KR is one condition each. I’m pretty sure it was intended originally as a reward for taking multiple kits that were less powerful individually since they could not all be traited well. That said, it seems that the patch notes were incorrect and it’s actually a pretty small change; the only build that took a big hit is elixir gun/flamethrower.

Kardiamond.6952:

Teldo and 5Gauge, our best Engineer, used it. Watch their video and tell me they have no skills. If you think 100nade was lame, you just didn’t know how to use it. using 25 different skills during a fight, with bait and rotation.

What pro build are you using good sir?

Agreed, I run 100nades like a boss in pvp and I use every single skill Ive got. Most people cant even account for that.

google.3709:

Atunement switching has stupidly strong effects tho lol and can be traited to be even more stupid, like gettin protection and stability for going on earth ? remove conditions, heals and gives AoE regeneration for switching to water? all we have is a box of nails.. lmao

Attunement switching is also solely responsible for 95% of all elementalists running 30 points in Arcana. The trait you’re referring to is a grandmaster trait. If you don’t do this as an elementalist, people will openly call you out for playing badly simply because so much of an elementalist’s power comes from attunement switching. Be glad engineers aren’t like that and don’t have a semi-mandatory build.

As for your comparison with water, EG engineers also get condition removal/heal/aoe heal on switch (just buffed with this patch, too), but they get it from an adept trait, which IMHO justifies that it’s not quite as efficient (20s vs 10s cooldown). Engineers can also get swiftness and vigor permanently from switching kits via adept traits, and we never have to wait for a cooldown before we can switch to a specific set of skills. This is incredibly powerful.

Something similar applies to the Mesmer comparison I saw somewhere. They need to focus their entire build on shattering often if they want to use their profession mechanic often. Be glad we don’t have to do that.

I mean, I agree that it’d be nice if they didn’t nerf multi kit builds like this. But it doesn’t hurt the main cheesy build (100nades still works, just have to be careful when to switch). EG builds with Kit Refinement get the benefit from the buff to Super Elixir twice, and they now have a blast finisher on EG #4. The toolkit buff on Pry Bar isn’t bad either, great for tankcats. Everything in this update was a buff except the Kit Refinement change, and that only affects builds that tried to burst all their procs at the same time (they all already had 10s to 20s internal cooldowns before).