Guild Wars 2

(Please note, I wanted to make this comparison thread sooner, but I was afraid of getting either Mesmer, or any other class nerfed. Its a kitten shame that people are scared to make informative threads for fear of nerfing, Anet.)

Hey guys,

Guardians and Elementalists have been lauded as the best support classes in the game, and I was curious as to what makes them so special? This isn’t really a challenge as much as a comparison of what support these classes bring to a group and what makes them so valuable compared to other classes’ supportive abilities.

In case you don’t know, support Mesmers can bring:

- Up to 25x Might / Fury (AltruismRunes, Signet) / Perma Swiftness / Perma Regen / Perma Vigor / Aegis / Protection (a bit unreliably) / Perma Retaliation / 2.9k AoE burst heals every 3 seconds.

In addition to the usual Portals, Reflects, Rezz, blah blah… (If we kitten damage, we can do all of the above. If not, a lot of the above)

Would anyone knowledgeable on support Engineers be able to enlighten me a bit? Examples of different builds, traits, abilities? Perhaps pros and cons? I’d like to work on making a comparison of all the different classes’ support abilities.

At work so I can’t go too in-depth right now, but briefly the Engineer…

- can bring a lot of blast finishers (and I mean a lot). Good for might stacking & aoe healing.
- can spam healing bombs for aoe healing
- can utilize Altruism runes (and any ‘on weapon swap’ or ‘on heal’ rune/sigil) better than any other profession due to our kits’ lack of cooldowns
- has a lot of movement control skills: chill grenades, net turret, net shot, glue shot, slick shoes, big ’ol bomb, mine, overcharged shot, magnetic inversion, rocket turret, glue bomb, elixir F, air blast…..ok, you get the idea
- can throw elixirs to buff and cleanse conditions from allies
- has healing turret (that aoe heals/regens) and med kit (to drop) that benefit allies by design. can pre-drop med kits before an encounter that lets allies pick em up when needed.

First off, engineers have the most access in the game to hard CC. Hell, a quadturret/rifle build has 2 immobs, 5 knockbacks, a knockdown, and 2 stuns.

Second, engineers have a massive number of blast finishers. My favorite pure support build has 2 water fields, and has 5 (!) blast finishers to use with them, as well as projectile and leap finishers. This build just so happens to also have a third AoE heal, as well as throwable medpacks that heal for 1.3k health.

Third, engineers have some of the highest group healing potential. Elixir gun has awesome healing potential, exploding healing turrets also are great, and medkit lets you contribute as well. Healing bombs is less common, but still great fun.

Fourth, engineers are great at group-buffing with elixirs. The ability to throw elixirs gives them some awesome group utility.

Fifth, with kits, engineers can proc on-swap or on-heal sigils/runes at will. This means lots of might with Altruism, or lots of healing with Water.

Sixth, engineers generally have many ways of dealing with conditions, both on themselves and others. Elixir gun 5 cleanses, healing turret cleanses, properly traited elixirs cleanse, and so on.

Seventh, engineers have a great number of “defensive conditions” available. They have lots of blinds, permanent weakness on non-champions, 50% uptime on champions (which another engie or perhaps a necro can boost up to 100%), several cripples and chills, and the like.

Eighth, engineers have a large number of situational abilities they can easily tailor to the fight. My 0/0/30/20/20 build has trait support for every utility ability. That means if there’s a condi heavy fight, I can equip several elixirs, then after the fight switch to knockback utilities to deal with the fight after. None of this requires a spec/gear change.

Ninth, due to the versatility of the engineer, an engineer can fit in any group. My first question to any group I join is if they would prefer AoE conditions or AoE healing more, and that’s only with two sets of gear.

There are more awesome things about engineers, but you only asked for support :P

EDIT: clarity and typos

… Wow. I had no intention of levelling an ALT until I read that.

Could anyone elaborate? Some heal numbers or the exact kinds of boons Engineers have access to?

I’d do the healing math, but it’s 1 in the morning and I don’t feel like hard thinking :P
Engineers aren’t as good at boon application as mesmers, but they are just as good if not better in removing conditions from allies or applying them to enemies.

Non-selfish boons will be in bold. Selfish boons will be unbolded, but still listed.

Boons specifically:
~Non-engineer-specific, but notable:
Runes of Altruism allow you to proc 3x Might and Fury every 10 seconds with medkit. This is a lower cooldown than almost any other profession.
Engineers have many blast finishers, so any blast finisher-based boons available will be more frequently activated than most other professions.

~Weapon skills
Engineers have no access to weapon-skill based boons with their normal weapons.

~Gadgets and Gadget Toolbelts
Utility Goggles applies fury, but only to the engineer. Slick Shoes toolbelt applies what is essentially improved swiftness, but also only to the engineer.

~Elixirs and Elixir Toolbelts
Elixir H heals and randomly grants protection, swiftness, or regeneration. Throwing Elixir H randomly applies protection, vigor, or regeneration in an AoE.
Elixir B grants might, swiftness, fury, and retaliation to the engineer. Throwing Elixir B provides one of those randomly in an AoE.
Elixir C converts all conditions on the engineer into purely random boons. Throwing Elixir C converts one condition to a purely random boon in an AoE.
Elixir S itself acts like elementalist mist form, while throwing it applies either stealth or stability randomly in an AoE.
Elixir U grants the engineer quickness, and throwing it creates a random combo field which can apply additional boons (retaliation or stealth) when combo’d.
Elixir X grants stability to the engineer. X cannot be thrown.
All of these can be traited to also apply might, in addition to any other effects.

~Turrets and Turret Toolbelt
Healing turret and healing turret toolbelt both apply regeneration in AoE.
Thumper turret toolbelt applies stability to the engineer.

~Kits and Kit Toolbelt
Medkit #5 applies swiftness and fury. This can be given to an ally.
Elixir Gun #2 applies swiftness to allies. This randomly bounces, so it isn’t reliable except in small fights. Elixir Gun toolbelt applies regeneration.

~Traits
A master explosives trait applies 3x might to the engineer upon heal skill usage.
A master firearms trait applies might periodically while using the flamethrower.
An adept inventions trait provides protection on being crit, and another provides stealth on being immobilized.
An adept alchemy trait provides vigor on getting swiftness, another procs Elixir S (see above) at 25% health, and a third provides protection on being CC’d.
A master alchemy trait increases elixir durations (thrown or not) by 20%.
A grandmaster alchemy trait provides might on elixir use or throw.
An adept tools trait provides swiftness on equipping a kit.
A grandmaster tools trait provides aegis on being crit.

While I’m at it, here’s some more stuff: Support conditions available, by condition. This ignores combos, as trying to count all of those would make my head hurt.

Blind
Pistol #3: AoE bouncing attack. Can be traited to penetrate, increasing application
Bomb #4: AoE blind reapplied over several seconds. Can be traited to have a larger area
Flamethrower #5: AoE instant blind, usable while CC’d
Grenade #3: AoE blind
Flame Turret overcharge: AoE blind field (See bomb 4)
50% chance of AoE blind on throw Elixir U
50% chance on rifle crit with master firearms trait
50% chance on being hit in melee with adept alchemy trait

Weakness
Elixir Gun #1: single-target weakness, 100% uptime on non-champions

Cripple
Toolkit: #2 always, any with master tools trait
Pistol #5: AoE cripple field
Bomb #5: AoE cripple field
Elixir Gun #2: Bouncing cripple
On hitting enemy below 25% health with adept explosives trait
On immobilizing enemy with adept firearms trait

Chill
Grenades #4: AoE chill.
Technically mortar can, but no one in their right mind uses mortar.

Immobilize
Rifle #2: Single target
Pistol #5: AoE immobilize
Bomb #5: AoE immobilize
Net Turret: Single target
Net Turret Toolbelt: Single target

Vulnerability
Elixir Gun #3: AoE cone, 5 stacks
Utility Goggles Toolbelt: 10 stacks, single target
On explosion with 25 points in explosives: 1 stack
On immobilize with adept firearms trait: 5 stacks
50% on critical hit with adept firearms trait: 1 stack

Chaos Archangel.5071:

… Wow. I had no intention of levelling an ALT until I read that.

Could anyone elaborate? Some heal numbers or the exact kinds of boons Engineers have access to?

Lucky for you, I did the Math the other day. An Engi can burst heal a group of people to full health in about 3 seconds due to many blast finishers being insta-cast.

At max healing power (1849 from my quick build) with all Healing power gear and Rune of Water, your initial heal will hit for about 5054. The blast finishers, of which you can do 5 in a row without breaking your fingers and each one healing for 1698 would be a total of 8449. Combine that with the initial heal and that’s 13.5k, the full health of some classes. You can do a proper burst heal every 20 seconds and you can do a minor 4k heal every 20 seconds as well. This healing is just from the Healing turret alone, the Elixir Gun can provide a good amount of sustain as well and would increase the amount of healing that has been detailed here if factored in.

The problem with the blast healing though, is that people have to be within about 300 range (This still needs to be confirmed but the range is from the middle of a point in Battle of Khylo to the edge of the point and I believe that is about 300units) of you but the inital heal is 600 range so that’s pretty good.

As for the boons they can generate, the main one is regeneration. They can also generate might from blast finishers, up to 15 stacks every 30 seconds. If you throw in Rune of Altruism, that’s 18 stacks and Fury. They could also get a lenghty amount of Retaliation from light fields with blast finishers but I wouldn’t use my Blasts on more than two things in a given encounter.
TLDR; Regen, Might, Fury (with Altruism Runes) and Retaliation.

A lot of good stuff to digest here, thanks guys. Could anyone point me to a sample build to refer to? Will be making a side-by-side comparison soon.

Omg, this thread makes me want to roll an engineer now so bad, lots of CCs and group support.
How hard is to play a support engineer effectively? Does it require high skill cap?

Chaos Archangel.5071:

A lot of good stuff to digest here, thanks guys. Could anyone point me to a sample build to refer to? Will be making a side-by-side comparison soon.

I don’t have a PvE build for support but this is my PvP build; http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fcAQJAqelIqya3zSZF1LJx4DdO8hCL6R+tsj/UQuA-ToAg2CuI0SplTLjWStsaNWYKC

Maybe you can retro fit it for PvE.

EDIT; I went ahead and did it for you anyway. This is is no way proven to work but, this is what I’d use in PvE; http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fcAQJAqelIqiY3zSZF1LJy4DfW4DFGoC51nHvVaBhA-jwCB4MgIOA0CAkIgpQKr5RCiFhFRjVLDVPbIyqbYmbFRrWIAprBA-e

You can replace the Thumper turret with the Elixir Gun for more support.

Yes it is keenlam. There are a lot of things you can do on your Engineer and you need to figure out by yourself in what situation they need to be used, in what order and what skill will promote other skill,etc…

Chaos, try 20/10/0/30/10, Trip kit Teldo Build. Take FT/Elixer, Bomb and Tool Kit. It is not easy to play but once you get a hang of it, it is a blast.

First +1 to the OP Engineer and Mesmer bring different things to the table but fill slimier roles. It will be nice to see some discussion here.

In PvE I run a support build with my guild (in pug’s I run a burst build) ill outline some of the benefits and try to list what Mesmer brings as well.

ENGINEER
-As a pure Support we tend to dish out more constant DPS than a Mesmer but Mesmer does have some nice burst.
-With blast finishers group healing is on par with Mesmer
-Vuln stacking with grenades is probably the best in the game
-Might stacking through runes is easy with Med Kit
-Condition removal with Elixirs/Elixir Gun
-Our hard CC is the best in the game

ENGINEER cons
-Access to might stacking is good but not as good as other classes
-Our group boons are less than Mesmer other that Regain
-Group healing requires a lot of coordination (if your not in vent then people will miss the heals)
-There may be more but meh…

MESMER pros
-have no clue my mes has been lvl 10 sense launch lol (group Quickness is pretty cool though)

Im not sure how a mesmer can maintain 25 stacks of might or perma protect retal ect but if that’s legit than i may just level mine lol

BTW the #s for healing on blast finisher is 1,320 + 20% of healing power ie BOSS