Guild Wars 2

Consider the fact that Engineers need to might stack to achieve the DPS that other classes can get without might stacking. I think that’s a pretty serious flaw.

And the fact that certain skills are totally useless without traits is also a flaw (IE Toss Elixir B )

@Kontrolle:
I will agree with you that Engineer has little role in ZvZ in WvW. In fights of 10+ on each side, Engineer’s relevance quickly falls to the wayside due to – as you mentioned – lack of high stability uptime and a shonky Retaliation implementation that all non-Engineers claim is “fine”.

WRT The Warrior:
If you play classes solely predicated upon base stats and a stronger toolset all the more power to you.
Warrior was designed to be an easy to learn, medium-hard to master class with highly telegraphed animations and a strong backbone of Traits and weapon skills.
Engineer was the last class added to the game and still suffers from junk traits, utilities and requires excellent APM. It was designed as a hard to learn, hard to master class.

If you find that making it easier on yourself is the way forward then I’m sorry to see you go.

This is not to say that Engineer is “fine” as it is. But it’s “Good enough” for most cases and if you don’t want to fall asleep at the keyboard then it should be the class to play.

Heh, read it as Zombies vs Zombies…

VIVorcha.7853:

Consider the fact that Engineers need to might stack to achieve the DPS that other classes can get without might stacking. I think that’s a pretty serious flaw.

And the fact that certain skills are totally useless without traits is also a flaw (IE Toss Elixir B )

Consider that our raw dps capability is only really beaten by wars I’m on with that. We don’t have to stack might to be on par with other classes I do t know where your getting that from.

Even on a war… Lets say you wanted to run with a hammer in pve, would you cry because greatsword does more damage? No you would use GS just like everyone else. So it doesn’t really matter if the way you want to play your engi doesn’t match up with other classes. The class as a whole is a great dps class.

The only reason guardians and mesmers are more popular is because they make wars do more dps lol, running the right setup you are the 2nd best dps class on the game… And your complaining.

Sure some stuff can be fixed but its the same across the board. Just ask a Necro who wants to run Minions… Or a guardian who loves there spirit weapons… Or a staff ele… Or a warrior who doesn’t like hammers. See where I’m going with this yet??

@digiowl:
Zerging in WvW basically boils down to 2 things: Have a long ranged auto-attack to tag things, have a few Guardians for Might, Retaliation and Aegis, have Warriors for Swiftness, Fury and Might. After that it’s Staff Elementalists and Necros for support. Everyone else can just spam 1 and pat themselves on the back. Oh, and Arrowcarts. Arrowcarts as far as the eye can see.

The GW2 design has been broken for 8v8 and upwards since beta. I wouldn’t read much into the whole “tactic” of zerging.

@tattoohead:
Actually if you’re running Mace/Shield/Hammer your DPS is comparable to GS assuming you take Unsuspecting Foe/Merciless Hammer. Your autoattacks hit for 2-3k depending on the build which is just hilarious. You’re slower than a turtle though, but that’s what permaswiftness is for.

Besides, Axe/Mace has been shown to be objectively superior to GS 100B in terms of DPS. GS is good for 2 things: Mobility, and spiking CCd targets. Even the latter is beaten out by a proper Hammer build, so it’s really more for Mobility.

I will say that Engineer doesn’t have to stack Might to be effective at DPS – as long as you’re running Grenadier and you can hit every single skillshot.

There’s a reason why FT was given Juggernaut and the condi-Grenadier spec first found its way into PvP in conjunction with HGH.

With regard to Static Discharge, it’s an all-or-nothing burst build that does have downtime between periods of peak DPS.

Really, if you’re looking for a balanced build that also has excellent DPS, Grenadier is our only real, relatively safe and effective option. Other classes have a lot more leeway and it’s sad that for the Engineer that this is the case.

I think this is where ViVorcha is going with his arguments.

MonMalthias.4763:

So I would say that it is not Backpack Regenerator that is OP, rather, Adrenal health is – after the condition management changes for warrior .

Nail on the head. I’m glad there are people who “get” the faulty logic in comparing traits between classes.

That being said, I have never and will never take Backpack Regenerator in any build. I believe Teldo used it at one point in his condi-burst far point assault build – and you’ll still see some engineers running it because they copy-pasted his innovation – but it is far inferior to something like Protection Injection where the additional mitigation you have while disabled is far stronger than any passive health regeneration.

I wouldn’t mind a rework of the trait though. Passive regeneration – even on a specific trigger of requiring a kit to be equipped – is boring and it takes up a Major slot to boot. Perhaps a trait replacement that introduces Stability on a specific trigger may be in order.

I got caught on this when I swapped to Engineer at first—needing a reliable build before figuring out “what works” for myself after some warm-up time. I now run Protection Injection on nearly any build with 20 in Alchemy (and that’s most of my builds).

I definitely agree on the need for a better “on demand” or at least “guaranteed” Stability boon.

Whilst I’m in this thread, I’d very much like a change to Speedy Kits. Mashing kit swap keys to keep it up isn’t “fun” in any way. Might as well just make it a 10s swiftness to make it less of a pain to maintain the buff without making it too powerful/hands-off in combat.

MonMalthias.4763:

@digiowl:
Zerging in WvW basically boils down to 2 things: Have a long ranged auto-attack to tag things, have a few Guardians for Might, Retaliation and Aegis, have Warriors for Swiftness, Fury and Might. After that it’s Staff Elementalists and Necros for support. Everyone else can just spam 1 and pat themselves on the back. Oh, and Arrowcarts. Arrowcarts as far as the eye can see.

The GW2 design has been broken for 8v8 and upwards since beta. I wouldn’t read much into the whole “tactic” of zerging.

Heh, i know. This likely because professions are design around quick decisive duels rather than drawn out wars. But outside of the SPVP centerpiece, that is exactly what combat is in the game. Either because of the numbers on each side (WVW), or because of the health pools one side is given (PVE).

MonMalthias.4763:

@digiowl:
Really, if you’re looking for a balanced build that also has excellent DPS, Grenadier is our only real, relatively safe and effective option.

I used to think that the Bomb Kit was “unsafe,” but I made a point to trying most dungeon paths with it, and I found that I wasn’t going down really at all. The luxury of the build is that you have a strong disengage through Smoke Bomb applying stealth if you bite off more than you can chew, ideally in combination with Rocket Boots, giving you considerable distance. A lot of higher-end PvE content in both dungeons and fractals involves a lot of wall-hugging anyway, so you’re going to be in PBAoE range a lot of the time regardless. The only time I felt it was useless was TA F/U for obvious reasons, but that’s not a path players regularly run outside of completing Dungeon Master anyway. For most dungeons people run (AC and CoE especially) the Bomb Kit is just as safe as any other kit.

Also, the Flamethrower may dish out less than the Grenade Kit and Bomb Kit, but it’s still good DPS when rotating in Acid Bomb from the Elixir Gun so you take full advantage of Deadly Mixture. Flame Jet is weak, but I think people get way too side-tracked by that and forget that Flame Blast is one of the hardest hitting skills we have—on a 4.5 second cooldown with Fireforged Trigger.

VIVorcha.7853:

Consider the fact that Engineers need to might stack to achieve the DPS that other classes can get without might stacking. I think that’s a pretty serious flaw.

And the fact that certain skills are totally useless without traits is also a flaw (IE Toss Elixir B )

I might-stack so I can surpass my average damage not to reach someone else’s. Maybe for Power builds we probably need to might stack but, it’s isn’t really that necessary because we have enough skills and tricks that make our damage quite formidable without might-stacking.

One thing I noticed about this game is that, multiple sources of damage is better than depending on one skill to do all your damage. So something like Static discharge that depends on multiple skills is better than depending on Eviscerate which just a single skill. This is because for multiple skills, your average damage is always going to be greater and your chance of hitting also greater than that of a single attack skill. And if there’s anything an engineer is good at, it’s creating multiple sources of outgoing damage.

Dirame.8521:

….snip…
One thing I noticed about this game is that, multiple sources of damage is better than depending on one skill to do all your damage. So something like Static discharge that depends on multiple skills is better than depending on Eviscerate which just a single skill. This is because for multiple skills, your average damage is always going to be greater and your chance of hitting also greater than that of a single attack skill. And if there’s anything an engineer is good at, it’s creating multiple sources of outgoing damage.

I agree with this on principle, but in order to be balanced, these smaller sources of damage should add up to more Damage Per Second than skills like eviscerate or 100blades simply due to power curve fall off.

A Warrior simply has to be in melee range for these skills to cleave, we have to land multiple shots (sometimes skill shots) in order to do less damage per second in the current model, especially when you look at damage as health percentage.

Ha, you’re seriously claiming Engineers are one of the best DPS classes? And WITHOUT might stacking?

Yeah, that’s just… no.

VIVorcha.7853:

Ha, you’re seriously claiming Engineers are one of the best DPS classes? And WITHOUT might stacking?

Yeah, that’s just… no.

Who said anything about best? SD doesn’t might stack but can still burst people from 100% to 0, The Bobomber build doesn’t use might-stacking and I can burst people from 100 to 0.

Dirame.8521:

VIVorcha.7853:

Ha, you’re seriously claiming Engineers are one of the best DPS classes? And WITHOUT might stacking?

Yeah, that’s just… no.

Who said anything about best? SD doesn’t might stack but can still burst people from 100% to 0, The Bobomber build doesn’t use might-stacking and I can burst people from 100 to 0.

Tattoohead did. Reading threads is a wonderful thing.

Dirame.8521:

VIVorcha.7853:

Ha, you’re seriously claiming Engineers are one of the best DPS classes? And WITHOUT might stacking?

Yeah, that’s just… no.

Who said anything about best? SD doesn’t might stack but can still burst people from 100% to 0, The Bobomber build doesn’t use might-stacking and I can burst people from 100 to 0.

Good DPS and Good burst are not the same.

Conan.8046:

Dirame.8521:

VIVorcha.7853:

Ha, you’re seriously claiming Engineers are one of the best DPS classes? And WITHOUT might stacking?

Yeah, that’s just… no.

Who said anything about best? SD doesn’t might stack but can still burst people from 100% to 0, The Bobomber build doesn’t use might-stacking and I can burst people from 100 to 0.

Good DPS and Good burst are not the same.

SD fills both those slots quite nicely. It has great damage per second because it very short window between static discharges.

VIVorcha.7853:

Dirame.8521:

VIVorcha.7853:

Ha, you’re seriously claiming Engineers are one of the best DPS classes? And WITHOUT might stacking?

Yeah, that’s just… no.

Who said anything about best? SD doesn’t might stack but can still burst people from 100% to 0, The Bobomber build doesn’t use might-stacking and I can burst people from 100 to 0.

Tattoohead did. Reading threads is a wonderful thing.

First off, no need to be condescending. Second off, you didn’t clearly reply to anyone.

The damage output of each profession’s “best” build doesn’t differ much from each other very much anyways, what’s more important is what besides damage those “best” builds add to the team, particularly damage boosts.

The Engineer’s issue is that his “best” build requires conditions, and it takes 7-8 seconds to inflict 20+ stacks of Vulnerability and ~20 seconds to inflict 20+ stacks of Bleed; in this time speed clear teams have already killed most foes so the Engineer isn’t very useful in that regard.

What the Engineer misses is a “good” direct damage option, a few buffs the Tool Kit could help out here.

I think the main issue here is how the person wants to play the char not how a few builds revolving around kits being OP. mind you it requires quite a bit of skill to be switching kits and using them effectively in battle and not everyone has the time and patience to learn how to be good.

DesertRose.2031:

The damage output of each profession’s “best” build doesn’t differ much from each other very much anyways, what’s more important is what besides damage those “best” builds add to the team, particularly damage boosts.

The Engineer’s issue is that his “best” build requires conditions, and it takes 7-8 seconds to inflict 20+ stacks of Vulnerability and ~20 seconds to inflict 20+ stacks of Bleed; in this time speed clear teams have already killed most foes so the Engineer isn’t very useful in that regard.

What the Engineer misses is a “good” direct damage option, a few buffs the Tool Kit could help out here.

You do realize you can run your basic nades build with zerker gear and be top tier DPS at range right? Forget if you close the gap and melee jumpshot and blunderbuss just to boost it more. The problem is that the speed clear as it is right now is pointless. There is no more strong CoF farm. The idea that everything must be cleared for speed is a waist. You want a world record go for it but that has little to do with the engineer. Fact is the class is so versatile that most players get caught up in the BS that engineers do not have good direct damage (here’s a secret we do). The issue is many players are still getting caught up with big pretty numbers vs DPS and that will not change.

All joking aside we could run builds with consistent fire fields for group might stacking, still have group condition clearing still stack vulnerability, and still be ranged most of the time.

Look assuming conditions are the best build is wrong imho. too many builds that are direct damage have passive condition overwrites. Condis simply are not the best build you can get out of engineer or any class for that matter outside PvP. If your PvE either go direct damage or hybrid that still leans toward direct damage. the miss conception that engineer does not hit hard is so strange.

Ellementalist.4381:

I think the main issue here is how the person wants to play the char not how a few builds revolving around kits being OP.

There’s nothing wrong with using a fun build, but don’t complain that it isn’t as good as other profession’s best builds or that groups might not want you in their party if you use one.

TheGuy.3568:

You do realize you can run your basic nades build with zerker gear and be top tier DPS at range right?

Even with Berserker gear and Scholar Runes the direct damage output of a grenade Engineer is way lower than the direct damage output of e.g. a Guardian, Warrior or Thief; only with the Bleeding of Shrapnel Grenade, Shrapnel and possibly Sharpshooter and possibly Poison from Poison Grenade and Burning from Fire Bomb the damage output becomes equal to or even surpasses the other professions.

All joking aside we could run builds with consistent fire fields for group might stacking, still have group condition clearing still stack vulnerability (…)

That’s what I meant when I said “what’s more important is what besides damage those “best” builds add to the team, particularly damage boosts”.

In essence, the engineer has a workload akin to elementalists to maintain DPS. This by swapping between 3 kits and a weapon set to cherry pick skills from each.

digiowl.9620:

In essence, the engineer has a workload akin to elementalists to maintain DPS. This by swapping between 3 kits and a weapon set to cherry pick skills from each.

Bingo.

Only Elementalists don’t need to waste all their utilities to do so.

And other classes can achieve greater DPS than us without working anywhere near as hard as we do.

That’s a flawed design if I ever saw one.

Elementalists are the jack of all trades, we’re the jack of no trades.

Makes me think about whatever ANet has done to promote “skill”.

Seems to me that they have attempted to do so by obfuscating information (limited visibility of skill recharge states for example) and padlocking skills to slots (can’t cluster them for easy reach). Didn’t they rearrange one of the weapon skill sets for Guardian early on because it was “too easy” to hit the numbers in sequence to produce a reasonably good combo?

In the end tho this seems to just favor people that have access to programmable gaming peripherals, allowing them to set up easy to access skill clusters (and perhaps more).

DesertRose.2031:

Engineer is way lower than the direct damage output of e.g. a Guardian.

How so?

Guardians can put out a lot of damage with their Sword/Focus Radiance build, but the Grenade Kit by comparison is like a Guardian spamming Sword Wave over and over again as an AA chain.

this thread is literally a giant congregation of whiners. if you don’t like the class, switch. if you don’t know how to play, learn. if your build doesn’t do damage, read the previous sentence and then google a new one.

if you don’t think engineer does good damage in dungeons, check out that thread where the guy spams 8.5k bomb auto attacks. then hang your head in shame, copy his build and quit posting here.

anyone who compares engis to ele needs to shut up. “Wah! Wah! Only Elementalists don’t need to waste all their utilities to do so.” last time i checked, the cooldown on attunement swapping is 9 times longer fully traited than kit swapping. furthermore eles and engis have different playstyles. no ele will come close to matching the dps of an engi, but they have huge partywide buffs and constant self heals.

a comment for a different forum, but to the guy who says mace/hammer damage is comparable to axe/gs warrior, lol. please stop.

comparing traits from different classes is idiotic. the reason why dogged march is an adept trait is because engineers don’t have the problem of being kited forever and ever and ever. but since it’s apparently the cool thing to do, check out dhuumfire, a grandmaster trait that’s worse than incendiary powder, an adept trait. funny how nobody mentions that. oh no engineer traits must be op then!!11

the only agreeable topic that that has any substance in this thread is that a full turret build is worthless. but you know that we’re not unique in this issue right? ever see a full spirit weapon guardian? how about a full glyph elementalist? some builds are just better than others. get over it. yes i agree turrets need to be worked on, but that can be discussed elsewhere instead of a cry thread that no dev will ever pay attention to.

I main engi. Loved the class, 2 character i ever made (first was thief but found out wasn’t to interested in them) and only have a few complaints. I would love to see not as much RNG in some of our skills i.e. Elixir H and Elixir X (Great skill, but i always get the thing that doesn’t help me out much and i either have to exit and wait over a minute to try again or just roll with it and hope i don’t get stomped (killed)), Turrets: would love to see a little more survivability and little bit damage, maybe would use them more often, and lastly downed skills, just feel like other classes have a lot better choices for theirs then engineers do. that is all. hope i did not rant.

the “feedback” in here is like someone going to the warrior forums and saying 100b doesn’t do enough damage.

VIVorcha.7853:

digiowl.9620:

In essence, the engineer has a workload akin to elementalists to maintain DPS. This by swapping between 3 kits and a weapon set to cherry pick skills from each.

Bingo.

Only Elementalists don’t need to waste all their utilities to do so.

And other classes can achieve greater DPS than us without working anywhere near as hard as we do.

That’s a flawed design if I ever saw one.

Elementalists are the jack of all trades, we’re the jack of no trades.

It seems like someone hasn’t seen the Ele forums yet.

If you want to play a class that can just prance around nuking everything, there’s your Warrior, there’s your Thief. As for me, I enjoy being creative and bursting things down with my many buttons.

ellesee.8297:

this thread is literally a giant congregation of whiners. if you don’t like the class, switch. if you don’t know how to play, learn. if your build doesn’t do damage, read the previous sentence and then google a new one.

if you don’t think engineer does good damage in dungeons, check out that thread where the guy spams 8.5k bomb auto attacks. then hang your head in shame, copy his build and quit posting here.

anyone who compares engis to ele needs to shut up. “Wah! Wah! Only Elementalists don’t need to waste all their utilities to do so.” last time i checked, the cooldown on attunement swapping is 9 times longer fully traited than kit swapping. furthermore eles and engis have different playstyles. no ele will come close to matching the dps of an engi, but they have huge partywide buffs and constant self heals.

a comment for a different forum, but to the guy who says mace/hammer damage is comparable to axe/gs warrior, lol. please stop.

comparing traits from different classes is idiotic. the reason why dogged march is an adept trait is because engineers don’t have the problem of being kited forever and ever and ever. but since it’s apparently the cool thing to do, check out dhuumfire, a grandmaster trait that’s worse than incendiary powder, an adept trait. funny how nobody mentions that. oh no engineer traits must be op then!!11

the only agreeable topic that that has any substance in this thread is that a full turret build is worthless. but you know that we’re not unique in this issue right? ever see a full spirit weapon guardian? how about a full glyph elementalist? some builds are just better than others. get over it. yes i agree turrets need to be worked on, but that can be discussed elsewhere instead of a cry thread that no dev will ever pay attention to.

Typical from a PVE player. 8.5k auto attacks with bombs….maybe with stupid buffs or something but in pvp…not gonna happen. If it did you would get hit with the nerf bat so hard you wouldn’t know what day it was.

LOL mace/hammer vs GS/axe in pvp is no contest. While probably you would choose mace or hammer rather than both…both are extremely good in pvp. Axe and GS are easy to dodge and don’t have half the control. Although many warriors still use the sword for mobility its not the damage that’s great unless you stunned the target with your mace ofcourse, otherwise they will just dodge or move from your 100 blades and you will stand there hitting air.

No class can be kited forever.

Conan.8046:

ellesee.8297:

this thread is literally a giant congregation of whiners. if you don’t like the class, switch. if you don’t know how to play, learn. if your build doesn’t do damage, read the previous sentence and then google a new one.

if you don’t think engineer does good damage in dungeons, check out that thread where the guy spams 8.5k bomb auto attacks. then hang your head in shame, copy his build and quit posting here.

anyone who compares engis to ele needs to shut up. “Wah! Wah! Only Elementalists don’t need to waste all their utilities to do so.” last time i checked, the cooldown on attunement swapping is 9 times longer fully traited than kit swapping. furthermore eles and engis have different playstyles. no ele will come close to matching the dps of an engi, but they have huge partywide buffs and constant self heals.

a comment for a different forum, but to the guy who says mace/hammer damage is comparable to axe/gs warrior, lol. please stop.

comparing traits from different classes is idiotic. the reason why dogged march is an adept trait is because engineers don’t have the problem of being kited forever and ever and ever. but since it’s apparently the cool thing to do, check out dhuumfire, a grandmaster trait that’s worse than incendiary powder, an adept trait. funny how nobody mentions that. oh no engineer traits must be op then!!11

the only agreeable topic that that has any substance in this thread is that a full turret build is worthless. but you know that we’re not unique in this issue right? ever see a full spirit weapon guardian? how about a full glyph elementalist? some builds are just better than others. get over it. yes i agree turrets need to be worked on, but that can be discussed elsewhere instead of a cry thread that no dev will ever pay attention to.

Typical from a PVE player. 8.5k auto attacks with bombs….maybe with stupid buffs or something but in pvp…not gonna happen. If it did you would get hit with the nerf bat so hard you wouldn’t know what day it was.

In PvP it’s 2k crits. And for PvP it’s pretty good for an AoE auto-attack. Also this thread never said whether it was talking solely about PvE or PvP so his argument is quite valid.

VIVorcha.7853:

digiowl.9620:

In essence, the engineer has a workload akin to elementalists to maintain DPS. This by swapping between 3 kits and a weapon set to cherry pick skills from each.

Bingo.

Only Elementalists don’t need to waste all their utilities to do so.

Our toolbelt kinda makes up for that, no?

digiowl.9620:

VIVorcha.7853:

digiowl.9620:

In essence, the engineer has a workload akin to elementalists to maintain DPS. This by swapping between 3 kits and a weapon set to cherry pick skills from each.

Bingo.

Only Elementalists don’t need to waste all their utilities to do so.

Our toolbelt kinda makes up for that, no?

Not really, most tool belt skills are just alot of crap, they give minor effects where as true utilities give major effects.

A more skilled player should always beat a less skilled player.

A less skilled warrior can beat a more skilled engineer.

And no. Our toolbelt is nowhere near as amazing as all the diehard Engineer fans claim it is.

Our toolbelt skills are much weaker than normal utilities. The toolbelt would actually be useful if it gave four skills that were as powerful as utilities.

would be nice is players gave a little bit of their background, just to see where they are coming from. alot of “Facts” are being thrown around that simply aren’t true or only apply to 1 aspect of the game, like slick shoes can be consider weak on PvE but great on PvP.

this could help with all the bias comments being throw around due to ignorance of how something might work on a different game type. or when compared to the players main class.

sadly, the loudest people tend to know the least on forums sometimes.

Conan.8046:

Typical from a PVE player. 8.5k auto attacks with bombs….maybe with stupid buffs or something but in pvp…not gonna happen. If it did you would get hit with the nerf bat so hard you wouldn’t know what day it was.

LOL mace/hammer vs GS/axe in pvp is no contest. While probably you would choose mace or hammer rather than both…both are extremely good in pvp. Axe and GS are easy to dodge and don’t have half the control. Although many warriors still use the sword for mobility its not the damage that’s great unless you stunned the target with your mace ofcourse, otherwise they will just dodge or move from your 100 blades and you will stand there hitting air.

No class can be kited forever.

thanks for the pvp lessons though i would imagine that anyone reading 8.5k bomb auto attacks would understand this was directed at whiny pve engis. i assumed too much and i apologize.

i also don’t understand the hate on toolbelt skills. an hgh engineer has three extra aoe condition removals. that’s 6 condi removals, excellent for both pve and especially in pvp, and that’s not even including the might stacks, the boons, the stability, etc.

a static discharge engi is built based on toolbelt usage.

any bomb engi has a huge aoe knockback. point control? blast finisher? these are all apparently useless?

rocket boots toolbelt is essentially blowtorch, which is huge damage.

i’m not gonna go over all the other good toolbelt skills, but someone explain to me what the issues are with toolbelt abilities. i’m certainly not seeing them. do you guys pick your complaints out of a hat or what?

toolbelt is great, thats why i wonder about the background, and if possible what kind of build they run, cause ofc not all skills are great, but as engineers have the best utilities in the game, and even toolbelt skills tend to be better than utilities in other professions, that hate for it is just odd.

google.3709:

toolbelt is great, thats why i wonder about the background, and if possible what kind of build they run, cause ofc not all skills are great, but as engineers have the best utilities in the game, and even toolbelt skills tend to be better than utilities in other professions, that hate for it is just odd.

I think it’s because of the obvious differences in strength within the utility/toolbelt of the same skill. For example, take drinking elixirs vs. throwing elixirs. Thrown elixirs are basically just weak versions of the main version, with the bonus of the effects extending to your teammates if they happen to be nearby (but seriously, how often is that?) That makes the toolbelt skills appear weak to people—no one would take throw elixir B as a utility skill because it would be awful. Yet it does have its place in an HGH build.

I don’t know if it is sad or hilarious that throwing the toolbelt wrench do more damage on a shorter cooldown than throwing the off-hand shield.

Yes yes, there is the CC part of the shield throw. But frankly, CC means crap all outside of PVP because mobs simply have too much health.

digiowl.9620:

I don’t know if it is sad or hilarious that throwing the toolbelt wrench do more damage on a shorter cooldown than throwing the off-hand shield.

Yes yes, there is the CC part of the shield throw. But frankly, CC means crap all outside of PVP because mobs simply have too much health.

It’s not even about the CC. The shield is a defensive weapon, damage isn’t it’s forte.

VIVorcha.7853:

A more skilled player should always beat a less skilled player.

A less skilled warrior can beat a more skilled engineer.

And no. Our toolbelt is nowhere near as amazing as all the diehard Engineer fans claim it is.

Our toolbelt skills are much weaker than normal utilities. The toolbelt would actually be useful if it gave four skills that were as powerful as utilities.

Skill ceilings for each class is different. And if an unskilled Warrior was to beat a skilled Engineer then that engineer probably made a mistake somewhere in the fight.

Dirame.8521:

digiowl.9620:

I don’t know if it is sad or hilarious that throwing the toolbelt wrench do more damage on a shorter cooldown than throwing the off-hand shield.

Yes yes, there is the CC part of the shield throw. But frankly, CC means crap all outside of PVP because mobs simply have too much health.

It’s not even about the CC. The shield is a defensive weapon, damage isn’t it’s forte.

And imo it sucks even at that. ANet seems to horribly afraid of PVP bunkers that they are gimping anything defensive into worthlessness in PVE.

sadly, the loudest people tend to know the least on forums sometimes.

like slick shoes can be consider weak on PvE but great on PvP.

Irony! Slick shoes are not a good choice in pvp but i am just a loud noob right

- 9mins 40 sec.

dear god reading comprehension. i won’t quote your post and give you an opportunity to delete it before anyone else reads it.

ellesee.8297:

dear god reading comprehension. i won’t quote your post and give you an opportunity to delete it before anyone else reads it.

Your posts speak for themselves when you talk of reading comprehension

“Can be” = Never. Slick shoes are NEVER a good choice in PVP, there’s always better choices.

Conan.8046:

sadly, the loudest people tend to know the least on forums sometimes.

like slick shoes can be consider weak on PvE but great on PvP.

Irony! Slick shoes are not a good choice in pvp but i am just a loud noob right

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zA1pgnlQaYI

- 9mins 40 sec.

Lol so because Teldo says it’s bad in PvP you’re going to follow him? Are you also one of those guys that thinks FT/BK are the only kits we can use in PvP?

Even ignoring the balance issues, the sheer number of bugs with the class (like Super Speed not actually giving double speed) and the constant unnecessary nerfs make this a less desirable option compared to other professions.

When was the last time engineers actually got a justified nerf or a significant buff?

VIVorcha.7853:

Even ignoring the balance issues, the sheer number of bugs with the class (like Super Speed not actually giving double speed) and the constant unnecessary nerfs make this a less desirable option compared to other professions.

When was the last time engineers actually got a justified nerf or a significant buff?

Significant buff—healing turret, April.

Justified nerf—there have been several; original Juggernaut, last September; original IP, sometime last year; another change to IP this spring, all justified.

VIVorcha.7853:

XelNigma.6315:

Nice Review VIVorcha, Great job at poiting out the elixir flaws. All but the biggest flaw imo.
And thats; WTF is an engineer doing with magic potions?

Ok my hatred for these thing aside, once you add in the defective turrets and subpar gadgets its starting to lookt pretty bad.

Luckly engineers have weapon kits that are more powerfun than our real weapons. Then sprinking in an elixir or gadget that stun breaks and thats your build.

I’ve asked people why engineers have magic potions, and I got told “It’s technology because it’s like chemistry.”

But alchemy isn’t chemistry. Alchemy was people in funny pants who didn’t understand how the universe works.

Somebody above me probably already hit on this… but alchemy and chemistry are fundamentally one and the same thing.

In fact, chemistry was derived from alchemy.

The actual reason I suspect engineers use alchemy is because the artificer/alchemist archetype is used very often in near-industrial fantasy and many times they’re the same archetype. The artificer in 4e DnD is very similar to the GW2 Engineer, for example.

digiowl.9620:

Makes me think about whatever ANet has done to promote “skill”.

Seems to me that they have attempted to do so by obfuscating information (limited visibility of skill recharge states for example) and padlocking skills to slots (can’t cluster them for easy reach). Didn’t they rearrange one of the weapon skill sets for Guardian early on because it was “too easy” to hit the numbers in sequence to produce a reasonably good combo?

In the end tho this seems to just favor people that have access to programmable gaming peripherals, allowing them to set up easy to access skill clusters (and perhaps more).

They also adjusted the recharge time of the weapons on the Guardian greatsword (which is what you’re talking about) so that the combo couldn’t be performed anymore. It used to be that the symbol was on 2 and the whirl was on three or four.

Of course, people immediately cried that Guardians are completely unplayable after the change, but it was done so that we didn’t have an easy way to maintain 100% retaliation uptime.

… Not that they really achieved that,b ut at least now we have faster Whirling Wrath.