Guild Wars 2

Kalan.9705:

Thanks for engaging with your customers Tyler – I really hope this wasn’t just a publicity action and you and/or others come back for more.

I think most engineers feel a major case of not being listened to at all:

1. We want less RNG, not some extra new & awful KR butchery RNG added.
2. We want our weak multi-kit swap builds to be supported not euthanised. The only reason multi-kits relied so heavily on KRefinement is because the rest of the traits do such a terrible job of supporting multi-kit playstyle.
3. Turrets need masses of work, especially in WvW where they evaporate in 0.1 seconds.
4. We’d like some versatility please, many of our kits are too weak compared to weapons, and we have only pistol, shield and rifle and no weapon swap. This is extremely few options.
5. The only reliable conditions removal now being in elixirs is another casualty of the KR mess.
6. The length of the Engineer bug list, it’s a bit embarrassing at this stage tbh.
   I’ll stop the list there before it gets too long.

Finally as a general point your class balance team appears to be over-worked, understaffed and getting blinkered or just plain inaccurate feedback. More staff are needed, someone needs to seriously consider adding a dedicated dev for each class (8 total) ontop of the current team. If your classes are evolving well then every single piece of gameplay gets a massive boost, and especially any weaker performing game modes will pick up numbers, and the reverse is true also.

More specifically it would be condition removal on multi kits – the reason why multi kits are less favoured after the KR nerf. Same goes for turrets.

Tyler Bearce.3427:

Thanatos.2431:

Hows that invisible cooldown on kit refinement treated ya? I think your the last engi to still have it…..

It’s not perfect, but it opens up some interesting play possibilities, especially while stunned. I don’t have a stunbreaker in this build, but I can still swap kits while stunned, which allows me to pop a clutch magnetic aura while being pelted with projectiles, or a magnet bomb to interrupt a melee spike.

^oh rly? so you just sit there and never use medkit or bombkit until you get stunned?

pro strat!

@ OP
I cant watch the kylho video (german music gema right protection bullkitten) and you cut out the ending credits on the niflhel video. So for all i care you`re playing rank 20s and dont want to show how bad you actually are

I can play without traits at all and still win against baddies. Owning noobs with crappy builds doesnt make the builds or the player good

EDIT: In fact in the Niflhel video you lose node vs a SINGLE MESMER. A Bunker build (and if i recall correctly you called your build a turret bunker somewhere) that is not able to hold node vs 2 (GC) opponents at the same time for quite a while is not worth it in the slightest.

RaynStargaze.6510:

Tyler Bearce.3427:

Thanatos.2431:

Hows that invisible cooldown on kit refinement treated ya? I think your the last engi to still have it…..

It’s not perfect, but it opens up some interesting play possibilities, especially while stunned. I don’t have a stunbreaker in this build, but I can still swap kits while stunned, which allows me to pop a clutch magnetic aura while being pelted with projectiles, or a magnet bomb to interrupt a melee spike.

^oh rly? so you just sit there and never use medkit or bombkit until you get stunned?

pro strat!

@ OP
I cant watch the kylho video (german music gema right protection bullkitten) and you cut out the ending credits on the niflhel video. So for all i care you`re playing rank 20s and dont want to show how bad you actually are

I can play without traits at all and still win against baddies. Owning noobs with crappy builds doesnt make the builds or the player good

EDIT: In fact in the Niflhel video you lose node vs a SINGLE MESMER. A Bunker build (and if i recall correctly you called your build a turret bunker somewhere) that is not able to hold node vs 2 (GC) opponents at the same time for quite a while is not worth it in the slightest.

First of all there isn’t any “ending credits” at all. I cut out all the parts that aren’t fights. Second, anyone that knows anything about turret engineers knows that mesmers are THE hard counter. Third, why are you so angry?

If your a EU player than you probably won’t notice but there are some known people that i beat. In a video that i’m uploading right now i have a fight with powerrr, if you know who that is. maybe that will be good enough for you Mr. RaynStargaze?

RaynStargaze.6510:

Fairtex.7810:

RaynStargaze.6510:

Tyler Bearce.3427:

Thanatos.2431:

Hows that invisible cooldown on kit refinement treated ya? I think your the last engi to still have it…..

It’s not perfect, but it opens up some interesting play possibilities, especially while stunned. I don’t have a stunbreaker in this build, but I can still swap kits while stunned, which allows me to pop a clutch magnetic aura while being pelted with projectiles, or a magnet bomb to interrupt a melee spike.

^oh rly? so you just sit there and never use medkit or bombkit until you get stunned?

pro strat!

@ OP
I cant watch the kylho video (german music gema right protection bullkitten) and you cut out the ending credits on the niflhel video. So for all i care you`re playing rank 20s and dont want to show how bad you actually are

I can play without traits at all and still win against baddies. Owning noobs with crappy builds doesnt make the builds or the player good

EDIT: In fact in the Niflhel video you lose node vs a SINGLE MESMER. A Bunker build (and if i recall correctly you called your build a turret bunker somewhere) that is not able to hold node vs 2 (GC) opponents at the same time for quite a while is not worth it in the slightest.

First of all there isn’t any “ending credits” at all. I cut out all the parts that aren’t fights. Second, anyone that knows anything about turret engineers knows that mesmers are THE hard counter. Third, why are you so angry?

If your a EU player than you probably won’t notice but there are some known people that i beat. In a video that i’m uploading right now i have a fight with powerrr, if you know who that is. maybe that will be good enough for you Mr. RaynStargaze?

Ok so you claim the hard counter to your build is mesmer? lol?
Let`s seeeeeee what else hard counters your build … hmmm

ohh yea conditions – in fact you have no condi remove at all except for a clean swipe every 60!!!! seconds.
Honestly any condition heavy build with some range would just kitten you

On a sidenote powerrr=hotjoin hero nuff said

Still i dont understand why you just HAAAAD to remove the table at the end which shows opponent ranks.

You know what most condition heavy builds are lacking? Stability. How can anything stand against me without stability? Go ahead and count how many times i’m defeated by a condition heavy build. its not many

And what would you have done against that mesmer that neutralized the node for 15 seconds? Stayed in his chaos field and ate conditions, get stomped, then lose the node? Or let him neutral it, kill him, then recap.

You probably don’t tourny, but 3 out of 4 times the assaulter is melee burst. The average opponent rank i face is 40 plus. Mostly Ransackers.

Heres a new video showing a full match at Battle of Kyloh, theres the table at the end for you

RaynStargaze.6510:

Tyler Bearce.3427:

Thanatos.2431:

Hows that invisible cooldown on kit refinement treated ya? I think your the last engi to still have it…..

It’s not perfect, but it opens up some interesting play possibilities, especially while stunned. I don’t have a stunbreaker in this build, but I can still swap kits while stunned, which allows me to pop a clutch magnetic aura while being pelted with projectiles, or a magnet bomb to interrupt a melee spike.

^oh rly? so you just sit there and never use medkit or bombkit until you get stunned?

pro strat!

I wonder why we never get Devs to comment here.

Fairtex.7810:

Kimbald.2697:

Fairtex.7810:

Kimbald.2697:

On the topic of turrets: their targeting needs work, and they’re still rather squishy.
I love the damage rocket turret does, it hits the hardest of all turrets, but if that one shot is wasted on a pet or something… it’s frustrating.

At first it was very frustrating to see my turrets target the wrong thing. I’ve started to appreciate it to some extent because from watching some of my clips you can see where it has saved me. Plus, its not like a shot is totally wasted if it hits the ranger pet. they are annoying.

You’ll also notice that clones will attack my turrets instead of me at times. and they do squat for damage. If there was a way to make them target your target on command…

the poor UI can be usefull and actually save you by targeting the pet or clone, but the thing is that it’s random…
You can’t rely on it.

my suggestion, to be more reliable:
1. my target
2. if no target, player attacking me
3. if no target, and no player attacking me: npc attacking me
4. if none of the above: do nothing, keep still, just look pretty and turrety and be still.

The thing is its not random though, it targets closest enemy to turret. I’m not against your suggestions but if you make them target your target, target swapping (2v1s) is out of the question. Whenever you would switch a target for CC or whatever, your turrets physically take time to rotate, and they’re not attacking during this time. What i like to do in a 2v1 situation is pay attention to who my turrets are targeting and I will target the other player. Every so often i’ll be able to pull of a 2v1 this way.

I completely agree that you can’t rely of turret targeting. You just have to have great awareness and be able to make decisions on the fly. I know a lot of people don’t like the targeting AI, and i get it, but i personally have accepted it for what it is and found ways to use it to my advantage. But i know i could find ways to play with your suggestions too.

thanks for the post

Is that reliable, that closest to the turret?
If so, I’m thinking of skipping deployable turrets and will stop putting them on edges and roofs. I do this to keep them safe mostly.

What I am practicing on now, is to run in and drop turrets where they are.
I swap tool kit and start bashing in the overcharges.
If they aoe and kill my turrets, the turrets explode and knockback… making that not a total loss.
In this scenario, the closer my turrets are to me, and my enemy, the more i can count on them targeting him and not a pet wandering about?

nakoda.4213:

how would this destroy their independence?

right now all you get is an over charge after you put it down.

the idea i posted would allow you to drop the turret (or deploy it, trait depending) and then it is still on it’s own. This idea allows you to then swap to the turrets “controls” to reasign a target or drop down some extra abilities, or use the over charge, or pick it back up again.

not sure where that ruins their independence or interferes with current swapping capabilities.

the whole premise is that each turret is it’s own kit. the utility slot is the “swap to kit” just like any kit, and you get a full bar of 5 abilities, then you swap out to something else, just like we do now.

this idea was a reaction an idea to put all turrets in one kit, which i believe would be far too limiting. rather, increase the utility and function of each turret by giving it its own “kit”

controlling them one at a time is the idea.

ie: possible combo using idea above:
net shot (toolbelt) -> drop net turret -> overcharge (skill #4) -> ft 2 -> caltrops in radius around turret (say, kit #2) -> ft 3 -> oil slick (net turret #1, perhaps) -> ft 1 (ignites the oil)

or whatever, really. i don’t see this idea hindering the play or use of your turrets at all, especially since we can swap kits at will. you still place then and let them do their thing. the kit abilities are extra utilities built in to the turrets and the “kit” is like your remote control.

you could be on one side of a point fighting, your allies on the other near your turrets, and swap to turret skills to aid allies while still engaging a foe where you are, slick as chicken louie.

But swapping through all those turret kits would proc my KR triggers!! [insert-completely-unrelated-and-ridiculous-KR-complaints]

But on a serious note, Turrets would become indistinguishable from Kits by design. I was against the original “Turret Kit” idea because it compresses an entire mechanic into a single skill. ANet would then have to create four new skills to readjust for decrease in total skills. Then the turrets would have to be balanced for all being available in a single kit… It would be way too much of an overhaul of how it works. Your idea doesn’t have half of those problems but still maintains the core issue. I don’t think ANet wants the Turret method of play(MoP) being similar to the Kit MoP.

And when he means, independence, he’s talking about how this change would make the turrets a lot more manual. They would lose their “Drop it and let it work” style in favor of something that you actually want to spend time micromanaging. And while I do enjoy the micro that Engineer gives me, I don’t think every part of it should require it. Turrets are a refreshing level of simplicity in a profession that I spend time creating and practicing 13 step combo chains. (And even then, turrets are often a part of them)

Kimbald.2697:

Fairtex.7810:

Kimbald.2697:

Fairtex.7810:

Kimbald.2697:

On the topic of turrets: their targeting needs work, and they’re still rather squishy.
I love the damage rocket turret does, it hits the hardest of all turrets, but if that one shot is wasted on a pet or something… it’s frustrating.

At first it was very frustrating to see my turrets target the wrong thing. I’ve started to appreciate it to some extent because from watching some of my clips you can see where it has saved me. Plus, its not like a shot is totally wasted if it hits the ranger pet. they are annoying.

You’ll also notice that clones will attack my turrets instead of me at times. and they do squat for damage. If there was a way to make them target your target on command…

the poor UI can be usefull and actually save you by targeting the pet or clone, but the thing is that it’s random…
You can’t rely on it.

my suggestion, to be more reliable:
1. my target
2. if no target, player attacking me
3. if no target, and no player attacking me: npc attacking me
4. if none of the above: do nothing, keep still, just look pretty and turrety and be still.

The thing is its not random though, it targets closest enemy to turret. I’m not against your suggestions but if you make them target your target, target swapping (2v1s) is out of the question. Whenever you would switch a target for CC or whatever, your turrets physically take time to rotate, and they’re not attacking during this time. What i like to do in a 2v1 situation is pay attention to who my turrets are targeting and I will target the other player. Every so often i’ll be able to pull of a 2v1 this way.

I completely agree that you can’t rely of turret targeting. You just have to have great awareness and be able to make decisions on the fly. I know a lot of people don’t like the targeting AI, and i get it, but i personally have accepted it for what it is and found ways to use it to my advantage. But i know i could find ways to play with your suggestions too.

thanks for the post

Is that reliable, that closest to the turret?
If so, I’m thinking of skipping deployable turrets and will stop putting them on edges and roofs. I do this to keep them safe mostly.

What I am practicing on now, is to run in and drop turrets where they are.
I swap tool kit and start bashing in the overcharges.
If they aoe and kill my turrets, the turrets explode and knockback… making that not a total loss.
In this scenario, the closer my turrets are to me, and my enemy, the more i can count on them targeting him and not a pet wandering about?

yes you can rely on them hitting the closest target. Thats why i’m been trying to be a little more savvy with my placement and actually waiting untill combat engages. nothing surprises an enemy more than an electrified net coming out of no where.

I’ve been keeping my rocket turret up, out of the way. then i’ll overcharge it when an enemy gets close. before they dodge roll to miss the rocket, i’ll drop net turret and overcharge immediately. Its a good way to secure the CC rotation of the two turrets.

Tyler Bearce.3427:

Ultimately Kit Refinement was too powerful as a tier 1 trait, and so far we’ve been avoiding swapping the tier a trait is in. Other considerations were improving the weak kit refinement skills on Bomb Kit and Med Kit, reworking the really strong skills of Grenade Kit and Elixir Gun, and also any kit refinement proc that gives a skill that’s already on that kit, like the Caltrops on Tool Kit.

I would want a developer to reply this:

If Kit Refinement was too powerful, then why do the elementalists still get to have the elemental attunement adept level arcana trait? This gives the elementalists 15 s of might (fire), 5 s of swiftness (air), 5 s of protection (earth) and 5 s of regeneration (water). To make it even more overpowered the elementalist actually gives these boons to its allies at well without any additional trait. And with boon duration runes and swapping between the attunements it is possible to keep up all the 4 boons up 100% of the time using the common dual dagger 0/10/0/30/30 build.

I would argue that elemental attunement is much stronger and more reliable than the kit refinement trait, yet it costs the same 10 points. And it also doesn’t suffer from some gimmicky internal cooldown as most elementalists anycase invest 30 points into the arcana line and can swap between the attunements every few seconds.

Currently it feels that many of the engineer traits are just weaker than what other professions get for the same amount of points. Prime example: adrenal implant has exactly the same effect as ranger’s natural vigor. Engineer needs to spend 30 points in a trait line to get the same effect what rangers get with 5 points!

Note: I have level 80 elementalist, engineer and ranger. Played them all. And the traits are NOT balanced.

I’m mostly upset about the Kit Refinement nerf because it took away condition removal from multi-kit builds.

Deniara Devious.3948:

If Kit Refinement was too powerful, then why do the elementalists still get to have the elemental attunement adept level arcana trait? This gives the elementalists 15 s of might (fire), 5 s of swiftness (air), 5 s of protection (earth) and 5 s of regeneration (water). To make it even more overpowered the elementalist actually gives these boons to its allies* at well without any additional trait. And with boon duration runes and swapping between the attunements it is possible to keep up all the 4 boons up 100% of the time.

Pretty sure only swiftness, fury, vigor, and might can be kept up indefinitely with the standard build, and d/(x) does it best.
Frankly, I don’t find boon duration all that great without a mainhand dagger, because the attunements of the scepter and staff are much more situationally dependent. (For instance, if I were to attack an enemy from range with the scepter, any attunement other than the air attunement would be a terrible choice, because my attacks would either do next to no damage (Shatterstone, Stone Shards if non-condition build) or not hit at all. (Dragon’s Tooth, Phoenix, Shatterstone again))

Anyway, my point is that you should specify that part of the issue you have is mainly with mainhand dagger eles.

People keep saying that multi kit engineers were not powerful. Even after the KR nerf multi kit engis are very powerful in PvE. Grenade kit, Elixir kit and Toolkit provide great dmg, utility and together with rifle very good CC and protection.

And in WvW many engis still use several kits, even after the KR nerf. KR was perhaps too powerful. Specially considering that you could easily get another rather powerful trait in the same tree, static discharge. And everyone who used 100 nades would also have tool kit, meaning you got throw wrench. You are now 1 rifle turret tool belt skill from unleashing 7 types of hell that would instantly gib anyone not a bunker. If you carry a rifle with that build you also have alot of CC on short CD.

There was just too much synergy in the tool trait line. Shorter toolbelt skills makes static discharge from toolbelt skills cool down faster, it makes grenade barrage faster, KR put all that over the top. It also gives crit dmg, faster heals, perma swiftness.

Don’t get my wrong KR in it’s current state is useless. It went from one extreme to another.

Fairtex.7810:

Heres a new video showing a full match at Battle of Kyloh, theres the table at the end for you
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmsvtaA4evM&feature=youtu.be

Nice to see you`re playing good people first of all

All the things i said in my previous post about why the build fails still stand though and i dont see my opinion on those changing anytime soon.

Overall in this game you got great teamwork and trebfire helps you out a lot.

I dont really think that you contributed much to this game what a different build/profession couldnt have done better though.

At 6:22 for example the engi and the guard attack in a 2v2 situation and the engi just instagibs you really fast – notice the guard doesnt do anything at all really getting pushed back by your turrets once but that only means that you got killed by 1 engi solo pretty much (the necro joining in as well later on).
Which is pretty much what i said for a non-dps class you die too fast to too many things and dont bring enough utility aside from net turret.

You lose node twice even though youre clearly defending while walking off node to place turrets or something – obviously thats bad and you shouldnt do that.

Later on you get attacked by a guard and a warri you die to them relatively quick even though you use turret knockback – i feel like an aoe slow would have helped you more in that situation.

Tyler Bearce.3427:

No, we’d rather it not feel random and I agree it no longer has synergy with Speedy Kits. The cooldown was just an unfortunate trade off we needed to make to keep it balanced as a tier 1 trait.

I said this in another thread, but I think it wouldn’t be that hard to make this trait less random without changing the maximum availability that much. Work it into a buff that makes the Kit Refinement spell go off every X kit swaps. The only downside is that players will not have it automatically cool off outside of combat, but I can’t imagine any Engineers that wouldn’t take that kind of consideration over the current one that they have no real power to moderate.

I don’t think it is possible to have KR be useful the way it functions right now. In that it creates a spell on a GCD. Really when you think about it, the only reason it was ever reliable even before the first round of changes was because you could jump in the air and have it do nothing so you could save whatever effect you wanted for when you wanted it. Which is honestly what we really want, but I will be the first to admit that it was stupid and ugly and several overpowered even from a basic professions level. You now had 1-4 extra spells (depending on how many kits you ran) that you could use basically on command for a 10 point trait on fairly low CDs.

I would rather kit refinement was not an active spell, but rather a permanent passive ability that made that specific kit slightly better when you switched to that kit. Shorter CD for something, higher chance for something, increased dmg on something. Things like that. It would easier to balance, it would not be random and it would be a useful 10 trait point, rivaling SD and Speedy kits.

Med kit – Short CD for bandages with 1-2 sec or increased healing with 5-10%
Bomb kit – 10% chance bombs heal you for whatever Infused bombs would
Grenade kit – 5% chance you throw an extra grenade
Elixir gun – Heal field of super elixir increased by X or shorter CD
Tool kit – increase block duration by 1 sec
Flame kit – increase range with 100 yards

Now these suggestions are just me making stuff up as I wrote it. They are not balanced and are probably a product of my wishes and lack of creativity. It’s just to demonstrate the gist of what I am saying.

Kit refinement:
What if it only worked in combat?

One of my main complaints about it is that it conflicts with Speedy Kits. I end up using my cooldown spells from kit refinement while swapping kits for speed. I’m always dropping some silly effect just running from place to place.

Slamz.5376:

Kit refinement:
What if it only worked in combat?

One of my main complaints about it is that it conflicts with Speedy Kits. I end up using my cooldown spells from kit refinement while swapping kits for speed. I’m always dropping some silly effect just running from place to place.

that’s the least they could do… It’s not like the tool kit 2 sec speed is usefull out of combat anyhow.
You would take speedy kits for that, any day…

In combat would certainly be better then how it works now. Surely from a technical aspect it would be easy to implement. But the problem with KR is that the spells it creates feel deliberate due to their active nature and when you can not use them reliably at decisive moments it feels like a waste.

Sepahbod.4653:

In combat would certainly be better then how it works now. Surely from a technical aspect it would be easy to implement. But the problem with KR is that the spells it creates feel deliberate due to their active nature and when you can not use them reliably at decisive moments it feels like a waste.

single kit and only usable in combat.
That’s how I see the new KR being decent.
Still a 20 sec cooldown is too long for most effects, but at least you could rely on the effect when you wanted it.

When a dev says he uses it when stunned, swapping to one of his 2 kits, I wonder what he did with his kits those 20 seconds before getting stunned… because he can’t have used either of those kits pior to that moment, if you want to be sure you get the effect.

When I use multiple kits, I swap sometimes on the second, often after 4-5 seconds… only occasionaly i would be in one kit for 20 seconds. When I do that, it means I’m doing an easy fight and than frankly: who cares about that little KR effect when the fight is easy?

Back to turrets: what turrets do you lot prefer?
I think net turret is a clear winner, and rifle turret for (power) Static discharge builds.
I like rocket turret a lot, but hate the cooldown. And it’s sort of easy to avoid of course.
The long range is nice, but it also means it ends up targeting whatever runs around

keep the KR talk in the KR thread plx.

this is about turrets.

nakoda.4213:

keep the KR talk in the KR thread plx.

this is about turrets.

tell that to the dev…
He uses KR in his turret build, so questions were asked about that and a few other things we found surprising.

Adamantium.3682:

RaynStargaze.6510:

^oh rly? so you just sit there and never use medkit or bombkit until you get stunned?

pro strat!

I wonder why we never get Devs to comment here.[/quote]

Ugh, its a conundrum.
The strategy he said works only occasionally by coincidence.
It by no means is a notable or reliable counter to a CC or ranged attacks.

That is a terrible loss, I mean, I’m happy some people are still enjoying themselves but that doesn’t mean it wasn’t a bad attempt at a reboot of the skill.

Anet didn’t have to leave the abilities so good that they couldn’t be on different CDs.
Anet didn’t have to leave it as a tier 1 trait.

garethh.3518:

Adamantium.3682:

RaynStargaze.6510:

^oh rly? so you just sit there and never use medkit or bombkit until you get stunned?

pro strat!

I wonder why we never get Devs to comment here.

Raynstargaze doesn’t have a reputation for formulating his opinion in the most polite and kind manner
He can come out pretty harsh at times in the way he says things, as he does now.

But in all fairness: he does have a point on this one.
I wouldn’t formulate it like this at all… but I do wonder the same: how does Tyler rely on the trait effect? By not using either of his kits until stunned? Or only once every 20 seconds?

RaynStargaze.6510:

Nice to see you`re playing good people first of all

All the things i said in my previous post about why the build fails still stand though and i dont see my opinion on those changing anytime soon.

Overall in this game you got great teamwork and trebfire helps you out a lot.

Actually, this would have been a good place to stop.

Fairtex shows solid play and good teamwork. He’s on a team for those reasons. There’s more to being a good teammate than being an unstoppable killing machine. I see a lot of players playing tier 1 professions/builds who don’t know a thing about teamwork and never get asked back. You’re coming off as very bitter and someone who hasn’t found a place on a team. If you have, then I’d like to see some of your gameplay videos. Also, you’re doing an awful lot of talking about bunkering—so show us what you know. Talk is cheap.

Adamantium.3682:

RaynStargaze.6510:

Tyler Bearce.3427:

It’s not perfect, but it opens up some interesting play possibilities, especially while stunned. I don’t have a stunbreaker in this build, but I can still swap kits while stunned, which allows me to pop a clutch magnetic aura while being pelted with projectiles, or a magnet bomb to interrupt a melee spike.

^oh rly? so you just sit there and never use medkit or bombkit until you get stunned?

pro strat!

I wonder why we never get Devs to comment here.

Its a conundrum.
Devs can say that an ability is working just fine for them and give out a situation or 2 where it has helped… but that doesn’t mean it was a good fix.

Being dev friendly is great, I mean if it helps keep them around and communicating why not?? but that doesn’t mean the dev fixes are good.

Kit refinement is unreliable in the best of times now. The ability to drop a kit refinement proc during CC is complete coincidence at best now, short of a one kit and/or mainly bomb engi, because of the shared 20s CDs.

That when something as simple as just toning down the abilities so they did fit into a tier one trait’s level would have worked, or moving it to a tier 3 trait…

It just doesn’t seem like the best or even a good decision in any way for the sake of the engineer as a class…

There should be a trait that makes turrets mobile, but really slow.

Jay.4837:

There should be a trait that makes turrets mobile, but really slow.

someone did a great suggestion in another post:

let turret cooldowns count from putting down, not from picking up.
The result is: when picked up after their normal cooldown duration, you can put down immediately.
If before their normal duration (25 sec flame, 50 sec rocket, etc) you can’t put down till that timer is fully done.

When destoyed, or exploded yourself, they get their normal duration of course.
Their has to be a punishment when the enemy takes them out, or we use them to detonate!

Tyler Bearce.3427:

Go turrets! Someone asked me to post my turret build, so this seemed like a good place for it:
http://www.gw2build.com/builds/simulator.php#1.4.8.0.0.0.33.0.0.0.80.94.85.86.102.8.8.12.228.234.0.0.0.0.256.0.0.276.271.0.289.291.0.20.0.10.20.20

I used to think the devs weren’t good at PvP. Now my theory is that they’re just asked to use niche builds to demonstrate their viability. I tip my hat to you for not only using two turrets but also taking kit refinement in the same build. It’s…not easy to make those work.

Do you find the lack of targeting an issue? Of course, thumper turret is fine without it, but do you ever find your rocket overcharge hitting a clone or pet or minion? That’s been the major thing preventing me from using turrets.

Also, I’d grab runes of melandru since this build doesn’t have condi removal outside of drop antidote, and no stunbreaks.

NevirSayDie.6235:

Tyler Bearce.3427:

Go turrets! Someone asked me to post my turret build, so this seemed like a good place for it:
http://www.gw2build.com/builds/simulator.php#1.4.8.0.0.0.33.0.0.0.80.94.85.86.102.8.8.12.228.234.0.0.0.0.256.0.0.276.271.0.289.291.0.20.0.10.20.20

I used to think the devs weren’t good at PvP. Now my theory is that they’re just asked to use niche builds to demonstrate their viability. I tip my hat to you for not only using two turrets but also taking kit refinement in the same build. It’s…not easy to make those work.

It is a bit suspicious, isn’t it

The one time we get a dev posting an engineer build, it has Turrets AND Kit refinement, after the patch and all…

But that’s also us being too tangled up in conspiracy theories. In all fairness: that was my thought as well when I saw the build.
Let’s hope he just likes to play that.

The remarks about KR being used as stunbreak do make me wonder a bit though. Might just sound like a theorycrafted build somewhat.

Still, I really aprreciate Tyler giving feedback here, he does know he comes standing directly in the line of fire of cynical kittens like us.
We might be wrong, we might even be right… but that still doesn’t change the fact he is talking to us, and he’s pretty brave at that!

Just want to say that we should probably keep the KR and various buff suggestions to a minimum in a thread discussing a certain build/playstyle.

Hey all. Long time reader, first time poster. Just wanted to post my WvW and tPvP turret builds and see what the OP thought of them. They’re pretty similar but no condition damage – uses Rifle. I wish I had some gameplay videos to post since a lot of fights are just hilarious. I’m having a ton of fun with turrets. Haven’t lost a 1v1 yet (honestly who care though?), won most 2v1’s.

(copy/paste)
WvW version http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?fcQQFAUlIq6ZntSXF1bJx4DdO8hCDSxetroC6/TB5C;ToAA1CtoMyYkwIrROjkGNG4MA
tPvP version http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?fcQQFAUlIq6ZntSXF1LJR4DFGki9aXRF0/XGyluA;ToAA1CtoMyYkwIrROjkGNG4MA

Nilix.2170:

nakoda.4213:

how would this destroy their independence?

right now all you get is an over charge after you put it down.

the idea i posted would allow you to drop the turret (or deploy it, trait depending) and then it is still on it’s own. This idea allows you to then swap to the turrets “controls” to reasign a target or drop down some extra abilities, or use the over charge, or pick it back up again.

not sure where that ruins their independence or interferes with current swapping capabilities.

the whole premise is that each turret is it’s own kit. the utility slot is the “swap to kit” just like any kit, and you get a full bar of 5 abilities, then you swap out to something else, just like we do now.

this idea was a reaction an idea to put all turrets in one kit, which i believe would be far too limiting. rather, increase the utility and function of each turret by giving it its own “kit”

controlling them one at a time is the idea.

ie: possible combo using idea above:
net shot (toolbelt) -> drop net turret -> overcharge (skill #4) -> ft 2 -> caltrops in radius around turret (say, kit #2) -> ft 3 -> oil slick (net turret #1, perhaps) -> ft 1 (ignites the oil)

or whatever, really. i don’t see this idea hindering the play or use of your turrets at all, especially since we can swap kits at will. you still place then and let them do their thing. the kit abilities are extra utilities built in to the turrets and the “kit” is like your remote control.

you could be on one side of a point fighting, your allies on the other near your turrets, and swap to turret skills to aid allies while still engaging a foe where you are, slick as chicken louie.

But swapping through all those turret kits would proc my KR triggers!! [insert-completely-unrelated-and-ridiculous-KR-complaints]

But on a serious note, Turrets would become indistinguishable from Kits by design. I was against the original “Turret Kit” idea because it compresses an entire mechanic into a single skill. ANet would then have to create four new skills to readjust for decrease in total skills. Then the turrets would have to be balanced for all being available in a single kit… It would be way too much of an overhaul of how it works. Your idea doesn’t have half of those problems but still maintains the core issue. I don’t think ANet wants the Turret method of play(MoP) being similar to the Kit MoP.

And when he means, independence, he’s talking about how this change would make the turrets a lot more manual. They would lose their “Drop it and let it work” style in favor of something that you actually want to spend time micromanaging. And while I do enjoy the micro that Engineer gives me, I don’t think every part of it should require it. Turrets are a refreshing level of simplicity in a profession that I spend time creating and practicing 13 step combo chains. (And even then, turrets are often a part of them)

see, the added micro-management of the turrets is precisely what I would like. The engie is like a database for me, each kit is a table with call values based on the inputs (environment, foes, etc), and so “calling” the kit and executing the right command in sequence is the meta-game I play, from a certain way of looking at it. The more robust each kit, the more combos we can effectively create.

Kimbald.2697:

NevirSayDie.6235:

Tyler Bearce.3427:

Go turrets! Someone asked me to post my turret build, so this seemed like a good place for it:
http://www.gw2build.com/builds/simulator.php#1.4.8.0.0.0.33.0.0.0.80.94.85.86.102.8.8.12.228.234.0.0.0.0.256.0.0.276.271.0.289.291.0.20.0.10.20.20

I used to think the devs weren’t good at PvP. Now my theory is that they’re just asked to use niche builds to demonstrate their viability. I tip my hat to you for not only using two turrets but also taking kit refinement in the same build. It’s…not easy to make those work.

It is a bit suspicious, isn’t it

The one time we get a dev posting an engineer build, it has Turrets AND Kit refinement, after the patch and all…

But that’s also us being too tangled up in conspiracy theories. In all fairness: that was my thought as well when I saw the build.
Let’s hope he just likes to play that.

I wouldn’t say it’s a conspiracy theory. I think it’s great to sit down and say “is it possible to make a working build that includes two turrets and kit refinement?” and then take it from there. Even if the answer is only “almost,” it’s worth it and creates fun new builds.

Zorgog.3908:

Hey all. Long time reader, first time poster. Just wanted to post my WvW and tPvP turret builds and see what the OP thought of them. They’re pretty similar but no condition damage – uses Rifle. I wish I had some gameplay videos to post since a lot of fights are just hilarious. I’m having a ton of fun with turrets. Haven’t lost a 1v1 yet (honestly who care though?), won most 2v1’s.

(copy/paste)
WvW version http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?fcQQFAUlIq6ZntSXF1bJx4DdO8hCDSxetroC6/TB5C;ToAA1CtoMyYkwIrROjkGNG4MA
tPvP version http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?fcQQFAUlIq6ZntSXF1LJR4DFGki9aXRF0/XGyluA;ToAA1CtoMyYkwIrROjkGNG4MA

bad link on both

Zorgog.3908:

Hey all. Long time reader, first time poster. Just wanted to post my WvW and tPvP turret builds and see what the OP thought of them. They’re pretty similar but no condition damage – uses Rifle. I wish I had some gameplay videos to post since a lot of fights are just hilarious. I’m having a ton of fun with turrets. Haven’t lost a 1v1 yet (honestly who care though?), won most 2v1’s.

(copy/paste)
WvW version http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?fcQQFAUlIq6ZntSXF1bJx4DdO8hCDSxetroC6/TB5C;ToAA1CtoMyYkwIrROjkGNG4MA

Hey Zorgog,

I hope you don’t mind me chiming in. The first thing I noticed about this build is the lack of Accerlant-packed Turrets. I see where you’re going with the minor traits, though. They seem useful to the build, but consider this: APT + Healing Turret + Detonate Healing Turret = burst heal + AE knockdown all in one. You can also lay the healing turret down and kite around it using the detonate to interrupt burst set ups by melee attackers. You also get some more area denial and damage with your other turrets. I’m not sure what I would drop from your build to get it, but think about it.

Secondly I noticed the sigil choice. I like the sigil of hobbling, but with 10 points in Explosives and the sigil you don’t get enough duration bonus to get an extra second on any of your immobilize effects. I would take advantage of your kit/weapon swap and grab a weapon swap sigil. There are a lot of powerful effects you could make use of: hydromancy, geomancy, battle, energy, leeching, etc.

tPvP version http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?fcQQFAUlIq6ZntSXF1LJR4DFGki9aXRF0/XGyluA;ToAA1CtoMyYkwIrROjkGNG4MA

This build is similar, so it’s hard to critique it separately. Here’s my advice for this build. Carry an extra set of gear with Runes of the Forge in them. If you see several condition classes in the enemy roster, keep the Melandru gear on. If you don’t see more than 1 or 2, swap to the gear of the Forge to get more up-time on Protection.

Just keep practicing with the build. A big mistake a lot of players make is swapping builds too often never getting a good sense of how the build really plays; what its strengths and weaknesses are.

Good luck.

You know, I think about that every time I use Healing Turret (where APT is at it’s best). I think I’ll shift some stuff around and see if I like it in WvW. I didn’t take it originally because the radius on APT was so horrible (has this been fixed?)

NevirSayDie.6235:

Kimbald.2697:

NevirSayDie.6235:

Tyler Bearce.3427:

Go turrets! Someone asked me to post my turret build, so this seemed like a good place for it:
http://www.gw2build.com/builds/simulator.php#1.4.8.0.0.0.33.0.0.0.80.94.85.86.102.8.8.12.228.234.0.0.0.0.256.0.0.276.271.0.289.291.0.20.0.10.20.20

I used to think the devs weren’t good at PvP. Now my theory is that they’re just asked to use niche builds to demonstrate their viability. I tip my hat to you for not only using two turrets but also taking kit refinement in the same build. It’s…not easy to make those work.

It is a bit suspicious, isn’t it

The one time we get a dev posting an engineer build, it has Turrets AND Kit refinement, after the patch and all…

But that’s also us being too tangled up in conspiracy theories. In all fairness: that was my thought as well when I saw the build.
Let’s hope he just likes to play that.

I wouldn’t say it’s a conspiracy theory. I think it’s great to sit down and say “is it possible to make a working build that includes two turrets and kit refinement?” and then take it from there. Even if the answer is only “almost,” it’s worth it and creates fun new builds.

I totally agree. it’s fun to create builds from basic pieces you want in it.
Often for me, those pieces are less popular or debatable choices.

My post was somewhere between serious and being funny.
A bit like the build he was testing I would guess

Zorgog.3908:

You know, I think about that every time I use Healing Turret (where APT is at it’s best). I think I’ll shift some stuff around and see if I like it in WvW. I didn’t take it originally because the radius on APT was so horrible (has this been fixed?)

It is very small, but I was suggesting it for your s/t PvP build because you’ll be doing most of your fighting in close quarters on points.

In WvW it only has one use. Knocking enemy players off of walls and cliffs. The latter can be very useful if you’re defending siege that are placed near a cliff.

What do you think about combining turrets with grenade kit? Good or terrible idea.

I tried it. I went into hotjoin.

I only fought phantasm mesmers and got killed. And turrets targeted nothing

I think it’s a sign of bad luck.XD

Someone up there doesn’t want grenades and turrets to be together.

I guess we all are happy that a game designer is playing an engineer. Hopefully you will be a voice for us

How do we go about talking to someone about the state of Necro traits, abilities and bugs? It’s lovely you engineer chaps have someone who’s playing your class (and the buffs to turrets speaks volumes regards the impact it’s had) but where’s our rep?

Come to think of it, how come there isn’t a rep per class?

SupahSpankeh.8452:

. . . but where’s our rep?

Don´t worry, an engi playing turrets and KR in tPvp (which is already a narrow part of the game in it´s own) might be about as representive as a Necro with a greatsword.

Tyler Bearce.3427:

I’ll try to respond to some of the comments since my last post…

…

Kit Refinement works in my build for a couple of reasons. First, I’m often bunkering a point. So my refinement is cooling down while I’m waiting for an opponent to show up, unless I’m preemptively dropping bandages and antidotes. It depends on who I expect to show up. The other reason is because my fights tend to last a long time, so even if it isn’t off cooldown at the very beginning of the fight, I’ll often still get multiple uses out of it before I fight is concluded.

…

Thank you for the reply Tyler, I feared we would never see you again! I can understand that this might be a good place to use the new Kit Refinement, but what about multi kit builds that actively swap between kits all the time? Those are widely viewed as very fun builds, regardless of what the flavor of the month is. Is the new KR simply not meant for those builds? If true it would seem counter intuitive that a trait benefitting the swapping of kits penalizes you for doing it a lot. Penalize meaning you can never know what effect you’re actually going to get so you can’t plan for it, making the trait annoying and hardly worth taking. As much as I don’t like comparing to other profession skills and abilities, it’s hard not to look at all the goodies Elementalists can get when attunement swapping.

I appreciate you telling us your experience. You pvp more than I do, and although we may disagree on KR, contrary to what some would like to believe it looks like you do know how the Engineer works and it is heartening that we have someone “in our corner”. I have been using turrets more lately, and aside from the AI on them on the way the overcharges don’t work instantly, I really like them. Like most people I have certain concerns about them but specifically about cooldowns I have an idea.

Cooldowns are pretty bad on Rocket/Thumper, I think a good idea might be to look into either lowering those or changing the toolbelt skill you get to something less potent and on a smaller cooldown. It is frustrating to not only have a turret unavailable for nearly a minute after it dies (a lot), but also the toolbelt skills unavailable for nearly a minute as well. I think all toolbelt skills should be balanced similar to Surprise Shot from Rifle Turret. Doesn’t hit hard, low cooldown, something to use when you don’t want to waste laying Rifle Turret or it just died. To be completely honest I don’t think Rocket or Shockwave are that great, but if that means Rocket doesn’t do AOE or has less damage, or Shockwave isn’t a blast finisher (we have plenty already) then so be it. I think that is more to the spirit of what the toolbelt skills were introduced for, something to actively use while your turret is gone. Just my two cents.

It is not bad. I played also this build and it works until you have someone with a lot of condition damage. I guess Tyler knows it now by himself, that’s not bad for us.

Dear Tyler,

We really appreciate to discuss about our class mechanic and I am really delighted that you really try to improve our class.
My comment to KR, since you seem to like it the way it is: It is simply broken. Sorry to be so harsh but it is totally against the class mechanic of an engineer. We are supposed to take advantage from our kids and tools and since KR got nerfed you simply broke one part of our class mechanic. How about a visible cooldown? How about reducing the cooldown and make it kit dependend again? You as a Kit user heavily rely on the effects of KR and they need to be predictable. That is the main point, I dont want to compare 10-point traits with other class but atm it is broken!
So I hope you as a team come up with a viable solution instead of decreasing our strength and the traits which are really class defining and which have a big contribution in the “fun-part” of being an engineer.
Thank you

Tyler Bearce.3427:

I’ll try to respond to some of the comments since my last post…

Yes, I do play this build in tournaments. I’ve used it for my last 30ish matches. I generally solo queue and I’m currently rank 289 NA. I’m playing this build because I prefer to use my own special blends, rather than flavor of the month builds. Would I be higher ranked if I was playing HGH? It’s entirely possible, but maybe not. At any rate I’m still winning more than I lose and having fun in the process. Part of the reason I play unpopular builds is to see how far off they are, and look for areas that we can improve to get them up to a similar level as the stronger builds.

Kit Refinement works in my build for a couple of reasons. First, I’m often bunkering a point. So my refinement is cooling down while I’m waiting for an opponent to show up, unless I’m preemptively dropping bandages and antidotes. It depends on who I expect to show up. The other reason is because my fights tend to last a long time, so even if it isn’t off cooldown at the very beginning of the fight, I’ll often still get multiple uses out of it before I fight is concluded.

Yes, sometimes rocket turret targeting does not end in my favor. However, the overcharge aoe is pretty big, and my build still works even if my rocket turret is missing my primary target. However, when the rockets are hitting, my build suddenly becomes lethal, rather than just tanky. And it provides some extra AoE CC through the overcharge knockdown and the detonate.

You deserve respect just for coming out here and posting about engineer builds you use.

I had a few questions about how much this was a real build, or rather a theorycrafted build you dabbled a bit with.
Seems you use it for real.

And as a developper, I understand you use builds and traits that are under discussion, or recently changed… it is still work after all, even if you’re just playing and having fun at that point.
I would actually think it a bit too easy when a dev would play HGH condi burst now, instead of finding the new possibilities.

On the Kit Refinement: I understand the waiting, but isn’t it a bit a guess as to what kit you’ll need to use first?
Or do you simply use the kit with the desired KR effect first?
When I use multiple kits, I swap out way way more often than once every 20 seconds. Having to wait that long before knowing what effect I will get, simply means the trait is no longer worth anything in a multi-kit build for me.
Not to mention those 10 points are always better spent on something else. Speedy kits alone is a hundred times more reliable than KR with the cooldown… Even for kiting around a point.
For me it doesn’t work with multiple kits, I simply swap too fast for that.

Rocket turret is indeed rather superb if overcharged when you are going full out.
I don’t doubt your build has good offensive.
An overcharged rocket turret combined with a net turret is a world of hurt and cc indeed!

I’m often critical, but thanks for doing this.
Doesn’t make every issue magically disappear, but at least we know you’re trying stuff out yourself.

Tyler Bearce.3427:

I’ll try to respond to some of the comments since my last post…

Yes, I do play this build in tournaments. I’ve used it for my last 30ish matches. I generally solo queue and I’m currently rank 289 NA. I’m playing this build because I prefer to use my own special blends, rather than flavor of the month builds. Would I be higher ranked if I was playing HGH? It’s entirely possible, but maybe not. At any rate I’m still winning more than I lose and having fun in the process. Part of the reason I play unpopular builds is to see how far off they are, and look for areas that we can improve to get them up to a similar level as the stronger builds.

Kit Refinement works in my build for a couple of reasons. First, I’m often bunkering a point. So my refinement is cooling down while I’m waiting for an opponent to show up, unless I’m preemptively dropping bandages and antidotes. It depends on who I expect to show up. The other reason is because my fights tend to last a long time, so even if it isn’t off cooldown at the very beginning of the fight, I’ll often still get multiple uses out of it before I fight is concluded.

Yes, sometimes rocket turret targeting does not end in my favor. However, the overcharge aoe is pretty big, and my build still works even if my rocket turret is missing my primary target. However, when the rockets are hitting, my build suddenly becomes lethal, rather than just tanky. And it provides some extra AoE CC through the overcharge knockdown and the detonate.

Thank you very much for all your posts in this thread THIS kind of communication / discussion is what we would love to see on the rest of the professions sub-forums…

Thank you Tyler. More devs should follow your example.

Tyler Bearce.3427:

I’ll try to respond to some of the comments since my last post…

Yes, I do play this build in tournaments. I’ve used it for my last 30ish matches. I generally solo queue and I’m currently rank 289 NA. I’m playing this build because I prefer to use my own special blends, rather than flavor of the month builds. Would I be higher ranked if I was playing HGH? It’s entirely possible, but maybe not. At any rate I’m still winning more than I lose and having fun in the process. Part of the reason I play unpopular builds is to see how far off they are, and look for areas that we can improve to get them up to a similar level as the stronger builds.

Kit Refinement works in my build for a couple of reasons. First, I’m often bunkering a point. So my refinement is cooling down while I’m waiting for an opponent to show up, unless I’m preemptively dropping bandages and antidotes. It depends on who I expect to show up. The other reason is because my fights tend to last a long time, so even if it isn’t off cooldown at the very beginning of the fight, I’ll often still get multiple uses out of it before I fight is concluded.

Yes, sometimes rocket turret targeting does not end in my favor. However, the overcharge aoe is pretty big, and my build still works even if my rocket turret is missing my primary target. However, when the rockets are hitting, my build suddenly becomes lethal, rather than just tanky. And it provides some extra AoE CC through the overcharge knockdown and the detonate.

Thanks, excellent explanations. Props again for making the build work. Now just slot those runes of melandru and you’ll be the best bunker turret kit refinement engi in the world!

NevirSayDie.6235:

Tyler Bearce.3427:

I’ll try to respond to some of the comments since my last post…

Yes, I do play this build in tournaments. I’ve used it for my last 30ish matches. I generally solo queue and I’m currently rank 289 NA. I’m playing this build because I prefer to use my own special blends, rather than flavor of the month builds. Would I be higher ranked if I was playing HGH? It’s entirely possible, but maybe not. At any rate I’m still winning more than I lose and having fun in the process. Part of the reason I play unpopular builds is to see how far off they are, and look for areas that we can improve to get them up to a similar level as the stronger builds.

Kit Refinement works in my build for a couple of reasons. First, I’m often bunkering a point. So my refinement is cooling down while I’m waiting for an opponent to show up, unless I’m preemptively dropping bandages and antidotes. It depends on who I expect to show up. The other reason is because my fights tend to last a long time, so even if it isn’t off cooldown at the very beginning of the fight, I’ll often still get multiple uses out of it before I fight is concluded.

Yes, sometimes rocket turret targeting does not end in my favor. However, the overcharge aoe is pretty big, and my build still works even if my rocket turret is missing my primary target. However, when the rockets are hitting, my build suddenly becomes lethal, rather than just tanky. And it provides some extra AoE CC through the overcharge knockdown and the detonate.

Thanks, excellent explanations. Props again for making the build work. Now just slot those runes of melandru and you’ll be the best bunker turret kit refinement engi in the world!

not to mention the ONLY bunker-turret-kit refinement engi in the world!

Sorry, couldn’t resist

(my real reply is a few posts up)

it seems to me that the benefit to multi kit builds (which still exist and never stopped existing) is that you have immediate access to up to 24 skills. No other class can do this.

Kit Refinement seems to refine what you get out of one or two kits by compensating for the loss of the extra skills from multiple kits.

If you choose to make a build without some skill you seem to think is essential, like cond removal, or whatever, that is a choice you made while building your engi, not a deficiency in the class.