Guild Wars 2

nakoda.4213:

it seems to me that the benefit to multi kit builds (which still exist and never stopped existing) is that you have immediate access to up to 24 skills. No other class can do this.

Kit Refinement seems to refine what you get out of one or two kits by compensating for the loss of the extra skills from multiple kits.

If you choose to make a build without some skill you seem to think is essential, like cond removal, or whatever, that is a choice you made while building your engi, not a deficiency in the class.

the thing with a ttrait like Kit refinement is that it should get stronger the more kits you use.
While this version gets weaker the more kits you use.

It’s counter-intuitive. A trait working on all kits in a different manner sort of screams ‘multi-kit users over here!’
This is also because the trait used to work like that…

I agree the trait was too strong, on Grenade barrage firstly, Super elixir secondly.
But they went overboard with the changes.
Now the trait isn’t a multi-kit trait anymore, that’s the odd part.
And the reason for that is not the changed effects, some are worse, some are better, overall they are more balanced and practical.
It’s just the shared cooldown… not even 20 seconds as such… just the shared part. Nothing more and nothing less.

nakoda.4213:

it seems to me that the benefit to multi kit builds (which still exist and never stopped existing) is that you have immediate access to up to 24 skills. No other class can do this.

Kit Refinement seems to refine what you get out of one or two kits by compensating for the loss of the extra skills from multiple kits.

If you choose to make a build without some skill you seem to think is essential, like cond removal, or whatever, that is a choice you made while building your engi, not a deficiency in the class.

And there is the Catch 22 that is holding our profession back from being truly great. Engineers can’t weapon swap, so we have kits. We can’t make kits abilities as strong as weapon abilities, since an engineer can potentially have 4 at one time. If we limit the Engineer to 1 kit at a time, we can make it stronger, but then what’s the point of kits—we should just let them have access to other weapons at that point.

This is a problem that needs to be addressed. Personally I feel that we should be limited to 1 kit at a time, and it should reside in our weapon swap slot. This still gives us access to 5 weapons that no other profession has access to and it allows the developers to buff kits to a more competitive level. It allows engineers to have 2 weapons (like every other class) and use of all of their utility slots. Kit dancing feels cool, but it isn’t the best use of our abilities. Most people are doing it to access maybe 1-2 of each kits most powerful or useful abilities, then swapping out of it. The old Kit Refinement made this style of play work due to the lack of a shared cooldown, making kit builds feel more effective, but even then most engineers were once again cherry picking the best KR spells and leaving the rest behind.

Choosing Traits and Utilities should never ever be a matter of avoiding absolutely broken, useless, or weak options. This is a place where the Engineer is, and just because there are a few vocal players on the forum that claim everything is peachy while reveling in their special snowflake status, doesn’t mean that this profession is free of design flaws. I’m glad players are making the Engineer work for them. I’m one of those players and I persist because I enjoy the aesthetics of the profession, and some of the more complex interactions of our traits and abilities. That means nothing with regards to accessibility of the profession, or whether the traits and abilities are balanced, working properly, or fun for the larger player base to use.

p.s. I’m not interested in your opinion on all of this if your argument is based on you liking the Engineer because it’s inaccessible to the larger player base and therefore has a “higher skill cap.” That’s elitist bv11sb!7, and has no place in a community.

our kit swapping is already inherently better than weapon swapping because it is instant. we carry up to 4 weapons without inventory space. this costs us in terms of a utility slot, and is (marginally, I agree) compensated by the tool belt.

we are in no way suffering from lack of options during combat.

nakoda.4213:

our kit swapping is already inherently better than weapon swapping because it is instant. we carry up to 4 weapons without inventory space. this costs us in terms of a utility slot, and is (marginally, I agree) compensated by the tool belt.

we are in no way suffering from lack of options during combat.

That assumes all kit skills are on par with weapon skills which is very obviously not the case.

Adamantium.3682:

nakoda.4213:

our kit swapping is already inherently better than weapon swapping because it is instant. we carry up to 4 weapons without inventory space. this costs us in terms of a utility slot, and is (marginally, I agree) compensated by the tool belt.

we are in no way suffering from lack of options during combat.

That assumes all kit skills are on par with weapon skills which is very obviously not the case.

Maybe that’s because the designer’s intent was to center our class around versatility and not efficiency.

Dimes.7281:

Adamantium.3682:

nakoda.4213:

our kit swapping is already inherently better than weapon swapping because it is instant. we carry up to 4 weapons without inventory space. this costs us in terms of a utility slot, and is (marginally, I agree) compensated by the tool belt.

we are in no way suffering from lack of options during combat.

That assumes all kit skills are on par with weapon skills which is very obviously not the case.

Maybe that’s because the designer’s intent was to center our class around versatility and not efficiency.

The two are not mutually exclusive, in fact I would say almost dependent on one another. If you are versatile, you are efficient in the way you engage combat.

Adamantium.3682:

Dimes.7281:

Adamantium.3682:

nakoda.4213:

our kit swapping is already inherently better than weapon swapping because it is instant. we carry up to 4 weapons without inventory space. this costs us in terms of a utility slot, and is (marginally, I agree) compensated by the tool belt.

we are in no way suffering from lack of options during combat.

That assumes all kit skills are on par with weapon skills which is very obviously not the case.

Maybe that’s because the designer’s intent was to center our class around versatility and not efficiency.

The two are not mutually exclusive, in fact I would say almost dependent on one another. If you are versatile, you are efficient in the way you engage combat.

Not necessarily. Versatility is how well one can adapt to a number of different scenarios, efficiency is the amount of energy that needs to be exerted in order to accomplish a certain task. Thus, the Engineer is a very versatile class because we have weapon kits for many different scenarios, but not a very efficient one since we have to frequently swap between them to use select abilities for each different scenario.

The main balancing issue I see with our utility skills is that our weapon kits, elixirs, and to some degree turrets, are substantially better than our gadgets to the point where there is little reason to no reason to slot a gadget skill over a weapon kit, elixir, or turret. Maybe if they decreased the CD timers of our gadget’s it would make up for the diversity we lose.

I think Engineers can be quite efficient, but I get what you’re saying. It takes us a lot of button clicks to do what other professions can do quite easily.

I also wholeheartedly agree about the gadgets being underwhelming. I love the idea of gadgets, but they’re just not good enough to use. Some say they made an Engineer because of the kits, or turrets, but I really liked the gadgets. I hope they get some upgrades in the future.

Adamantium.3682:

Dimes.7281:

Adamantium.3682:

nakoda.4213:

our kit swapping is already inherently better than weapon swapping because it is instant. we carry up to 4 weapons without inventory space. this costs us in terms of a utility slot, and is (marginally, I agree) compensated by the tool belt.

we are in no way suffering from lack of options during combat.

That assumes all kit skills are on par with weapon skills which is very obviously not the case.

Maybe that’s because the designer’s intent was to center our class around versatility and not efficiency.

The two are not mutually exclusive, in fact I would say almost dependent on one another. If you are versatile, you are efficient in the way you engage combat.

I agree whole heartedly that efficiency and versatility go hand in hand. I know that “rl” comparisons tend to lack, but think of it this way:

engineers are given the skills to use, well, anything, and then specialize (civic, electronic, etc etc). if an rl engineer tried to use every tool for every job, they would miss deadlines, create less than excellent products, or inadvertently leave half a new subdivision without internet (the horror!). and yet, they remain versatile enough to do anything put before them.

the engineer who is efficient is knowledgeable enough to bring the tools needed rather than the whole tool box.

likewise, in game, the efficiently played engineer take only the tool he needs to do what he plans to. look at maskaganda’s builds. super minimal, super efficient, super effective.

multikit builds work the same way. each kit has skills, some which work in unison, some which do not. to use multikits efficiently, you take the kits that work together. the more kits, the more difficult this becomes to manage.

this is intended.

kr does not “make swapping viable” it adds an effect on swap. it refines the process.

kit swapping is perfectly viable and effective as it is, if you plan your game accordingly.

You know what would help? If the engie’s favorite game designer and awesome all around engie * wink wink Tyler Bearce ;D * was able to define what they mean by versatility. Does it mean choosing skills before battle, during battle or some other time?

Its questions like those that keep me up at night. Apparently it does for Tyler too, this guy always posts here around midnight pst lol

Penguin.5197:

You know what would help? If the engie’s favorite game designer and awesome all around engie * wink wink Tyler Bearce ;D * was able to define what they mean by versatility. Does it mean choosing skills before battle, during battle or some other time?

Its questions like those that keep me up at night. Apparently it does for Tyler too, this guy always posts here around midnight pst lol

he’s probably one of those pimp-kitten devs who shows up for work at, like, 2330, and then logs on to pwn some nubs while his code compiles, code which he hammered out on his android while riding in the back of his charr-chauffered bentley complete with asuran chicks pouring drinks while on the way to the office.

nakoda.4213:

Penguin.5197:

You know what would help? If the engie’s favorite game designer and awesome all around engie * wink wink Tyler Bearce ;D * was able to define what they mean by versatility. Does it mean choosing skills before battle, during battle or some other time?

Its questions like those that keep me up at night. Apparently it does for Tyler too, this guy always posts here around midnight pst lol

he’s probably one of those pimp-kitten devs who shows up for work at, like, 2330, and then logs on to pwn some nubs while his code compiles, code which he hammered out on his android while riding in the back of his charr-chauffered bentley complete with asuran chicks pouring drinks while on the way to the office.

This… this… so much this haha.

Tyler we need you to record and upload a day at the office to YouTube. Make it happen. Thanks.

One thing I can’t get my head around after trying a turret build is why the cooldowns are so long. I understand the overload cooldowns, but an engineer is pretty strongly crippling himself by using all turrets and having a lot less tools for survival. I enjoyed the turret build when I could actually put them out but find if I’m ever needing to move I’m incredibly weak without them and not noticing that I’m immensely strong with them.

Seems to me they should be on a lot shorter cooldown because without them on a pure turret build you may as well run.

Coldviper.6794:

One thing I can’t get my head around after trying a turret build is why the cooldowns are so long. I understand the overload cooldowns, but an engineer is pretty strongly crippling himself by using all turrets and having a lot less tools for survival. I enjoyed the turret build when I could actually put them out but find if I’m ever needing to move I’m incredibly weak without them and not noticing that I’m immensely strong with them.

Seems to me they should be on a lot shorter cooldown because without them on a pure turret build you may as well run.

Alternatively, some of our turret toolbelt skills can get the same treatment our turrets got this previous patch and give them extra effects. Our pocket rocket skill? Now also causes burn and isn’t so lame after all. Shockwave? Now also aoe cripples. (Knock back may be a bit too much)