Upcoming Global Change to Player Minions

Upcoming Global Change to Player Minions

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Posted by: Adamantium.3682

Adamantium.3682

Link to dev post:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/hot/Upcoming-Global-Change-to-Player-Minions

Hey all,

As some of you may have seen in raids during the last BWE, we were trying out something new with player minions. Basically, in that final BWE, player minions did not take damage from boss attacks. We thought that made minion-based professions feel so much better in combat, but that change did expose some problems such as minions being able to withstand a damaging attack indefinitely.

We wanted minions to not die left and right, but we did want them to have some attrition instead of being completely immune to attacks. This problem is mainly prevalent in PvE as we have huge attacks all over the place that are meant to be dodged by players but unfortunately for minions, they can’t dodge.

After reviewing BWE results, we wanted to create a better system to accomplish this as a global change for minions. To do that, we made it so that unless a minion is specifically targeted by a creature, they will be dealt drastically reduced damage and condition duration from attacks. Currently, this is set to 95% reduction as we feel like it’s a good starting place, but we’ll continue to monitor and adjust it. This means if your minion gains agro from a creature it will still take full damage, but if there is area effect damage hitting your minion, instead of usually killing it instantly, it will slowly attrition it down.

We felt like minions were in a good place for PvP so we didn’t want to change them there for now. Thus, the interaction between players and minions in PvP combat will remain the same.

The change is for all player minions, this includes things like engineer turrets and ranger spirits as well. This will be in for HoT Launch in a few days.

Pretty good news, this must be what Irenio was hinting at with the game-wide changes that would be helping out the gyros.

Not dying to AOE instantly is a big plus for AI in PVE. I would like to see this expanded to PvP/WvW with a much lower reduction (50% or so) but I understand the need to see how this works first.

[TNO] Gizmo Gigawatt (Engineer)
Jade Quarry

(edited by Adamantium.3682)

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Posted by: Irenio CalmonHuang

Irenio CalmonHuang

Game Designer

Simply posting here as well for the red tag visibility.

This was indeed the systemic change that I was referencing before.

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Posted by: Nieguen.6235

Nieguen.6235

So you fix PvE but do not even bother of PvP or WvW for 12 skills of the engineer.

A.W.E.S.O.M.E.

/ESports

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Posted by: Morfedel.4165

Morfedel.4165

So you fix PvE but do not even bother of PvP or WvW for 12 skills of the engineer.

A.W.E.S.O.M.E.

/ESports

I think in most cases it’s only a really a problem in an AoE rich Zerg environment. In small numbers I don’t think it’s usually going to be as much of a problem.

However I am Not Dead certain about that. I just know that as a mesmer main, I have felt moderately fine about the status of illusions in 1v1 and small groups.

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Posted by: Arantheal.7396

Arantheal.7396

Irenio, traditionally WvW shared the same rule set as PvE, and zerging is also where minions suffer the most. Can you please at least consider a test-weekend or the likes to see how 95% reduced dmg on minions by indirect attacks influences WvW?

Engineer is love, Engineer is life.

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Posted by: Morfedel.4165

Morfedel.4165

Irenio, traditionally WvW shared the same rule set as PvE, and zerging is also where minions suffer the most. Can you please at least consider a test-weekend or the likes to see how 95% reduced dmg on minions by indirect attacks influences WvW?

+1

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Posted by: Nieguen.6235

Nieguen.6235

So you fix PvE but do not even bother of PvP or WvW for 12 skills of the engineer.

A.W.E.S.O.M.E.

/ESports

I think in most cases it’s only a really a problem in an AoE rich Zerg environment. In small numbers I don’t think it’s usually going to be as much of a problem.

However I am Not Dead certain about that. I just know that as a mesmer main, I have felt moderately fine about the status of illusions in 1v1 and small groups.

Illusions/Phantasm are generated easily by many different skills and soon traits. There is nothing to compare with turrets (utilities, long cd, hp) and soon gyros (utilities long cd, hp).

AoE in sPvP can be really rich. Try it yourself you will see how turrets are dead.

We will even have the 23rd 2 ELITES defined by AI, with kittenty hp.

(edited by Nieguen.6235)

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Posted by: Zenith.7301

Zenith.7301

If you’re worried about pets tanking bosses with 95% reduction, why not remove them from the aggro table of raid/dungeon bosses?

Since aggro is so random, this help will help SOMETIMES, and what this means is that for my ranger it’ll still be risky using something like jaguars since we cannot control who a boss targets and minions are an integral part of a class’s performance.

I’m also curious why this approach won’t apply to WvW, ranger/mesmer/minion necro are virtually crippled in WvW team fights because of AoE spam.

Don’t get me wrong, this is a great step in the right direction at least, but the lack of control over mob aggro mechanisms still means the protection is random.

I just don’t know why we are so afraid of pets having 100% uptime in PvE when the very classes are BALANCED around that full pet uptime to have competitive damage output compared to classes who are not.

Also, what about boss melee cleave attacks like mossman and archdiviner and Ettin melee swings, will those count as reduced AoE when the pet is not targeted?

So you fix PvE but do not even bother of PvP or WvW for 12 skills of the engineer.

A.W.E.S.O.M.E.

/ESports

I think in most cases it’s only a really a problem in an AoE rich Zerg environment. In small numbers I don’t think it’s usually going to be as much of a problem.

However I am Not Dead certain about that. I just know that as a mesmer main, I have felt moderately fine about the status of illusions in 1v1 and small groups.

Illusions/Phantasm are generated easily by many different skills and soon traits. There is nothing to compare with turrets (utilities, long cd, hp) and soon gyros (utilities long cd, hp).

AoE in sPvP can be really rich. Try it yourself you will see how turrets are dead.

We will even have the 23rd 2 ELITES defined by AI, with kittenty hp.

Not really. Phantasms have 15-20 second cd’s, and mesmer autoattack and other ability sustained damage is so bad without ramping up 3x phantasms.

Engineers don’t heavily rely on turrets to do sustained damage anywhere as much as mesmers rely on illusions.

(edited by Zenith.7301)

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Posted by: lorddarkflare.9186

lorddarkflare.9186

It MAY eventually apply to PvP and WvW, but certainly not with the same reduction.

And I am guessing they are hesitant to do this with PvP/WvW because minions are not fun to have to fight. The fact they go down so quickly is the only thing that makes them bearable.

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Posted by: Manuhell.2759

Manuhell.2759

Mh, this could make gyros indeed more reliable, at least in PvE. Gotta see how often they happen to get aggroed, though. And how cleaving attacks work against them.

Edit: ok, cleaving attacks that don’t target them directly have their damage reduced. Fine. Gotta test about the aggro when the changes go live then.

Edit 2: I missed the line about minions being in a good place for PvP. Guess they forgot already what they did to turrets. Or just never tried them after that change.

(edited by Manuhell.2759)

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Posted by: Morfedel.4165

Morfedel.4165

Simply posting here as well for the red tag visibility.

This was indeed the systemic change that I was referencing before.

I’ve been posting this in the other thread, but what is going to happen with damage that is split off to the bulwark gyro and the phantasmal defender?

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Posted by: lorddarkflare.9186

lorddarkflare.9186

Mh, this could make gyros indeed more reliable, at least in PvE. Gotta see how often they happen to get aggroed, though. And how cleaving attacks work against them.

Edit: ok, cleaving attacks that don’t target them directly have their damage reduced. Fine. Gotta test about the aggro when the changes go live then.

Edit 2: I missed the line about minions being in a good place for PvP. Guess they forgot already what they did to turrets. Or just never tried them after that change.

They do not want minions to be effective in PvP. That has been obvious for years.

Short of a complete re-work, I think turrets are mostly dead in PvP.

Truth be told, I can live with this.

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Posted by: Haralin.1473

Haralin.1473

Mh, this could make gyros indeed more reliable, at least in PvE. Gotta see how often they happen to get aggroed, though. And how cleaving attacks work against them.

Edit: ok, cleaving attacks that don’t target them directly have their damage reduced. Fine. Gotta test about the aggro when the changes go live then.

Edit 2: I missed the line about minions being in a good place for PvP. Guess they forgot already what they did to turrets. Or just never tried them after that change.

They do not want minions to be effective in PvP. That has been obvious for years.

Short of a complete re-work, I think turrets are mostly dead in PvP.

Truth be told, I can live with this.

They are dead in every aspect of the game besides healing turrets or maybe rifle turret for there tollbelt skill none uses turrets in PvE or WvW, there are so much better options.

Haralin Engineer
[Skol]

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Posted by: Haralin.1473

Haralin.1473

Simply posting here as well for the red tag visibility.

This was indeed the systemic change that I was referencing before.

If you refer to this

“Gyros are going to be affected by a systemic change that should increase their survivability quite a lot”

i hope you have thought about WvW and gyros survivability.

Haralin Engineer
[Skol]

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Posted by: Alkalissa.1706

Alkalissa.1706

PvE is an area turrets have been very weak for a long time, so I’m really glad to have this change come in!

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Posted by: Nieguen.6235

Nieguen.6235

If you’re worried about pets tanking bosses with 95% reduction, why not remove them from the aggro table of raid/dungeon bosses?

Since aggro is so random, this help will help SOMETIMES, and what this means is that for my ranger it’ll still be risky using something like jaguars since we cannot control who a boss targets and minions are an integral part of a class’s performance.

I’m also curious why this approach won’t apply to WvW, ranger/mesmer/minion necro are virtually crippled in WvW team fights because of AoE spam.

Don’t get me wrong, this is a great step in the right direction at least, but the lack of control over mob aggro mechanisms still means the protection is random.

I just don’t know why we are so afraid of pets having 100% uptime in PvE when the very classes are BALANCED around that full pet uptime to have competitive damage output compared to classes who are not.

Also, what about boss melee cleave attacks like mossman and archdiviner and Ettin melee swings, will those count as reduced AoE when the pet is not targeted?

So you fix PvE but do not even bother of PvP or WvW for 12 skills of the engineer.

A.W.E.S.O.M.E.

/ESports

I think in most cases it’s only a really a problem in an AoE rich Zerg environment. In small numbers I don’t think it’s usually going to be as much of a problem.

However I am Not Dead certain about that. I just know that as a mesmer main, I have felt moderately fine about the status of illusions in 1v1 and small groups.

Illusions/Phantasm are generated easily by many different skills and soon traits. There is nothing to compare with turrets (utilities, long cd, hp) and soon gyros (utilities long cd, hp).

AoE in sPvP can be really rich. Try it yourself you will see how turrets are dead.

We will even have the 23rd 2 ELITES defined by AI, with kittenty hp.

Not really. Phantasms have 15-20 second cd’s, and mesmer autoattack and other ability sustained damage is so bad without ramping up 3x phantasms.

Engineers don’t heavily rely on turrets to do sustained damage anywhere as much as mesmers rely on illusions.

Please see that I was talking about PvP (no mesmer play with 3 phantasms continuously in sPvP) and your CD argument is invalid when using a 2H sword vs an engineer’s rifle. And try supply crate yourself in sPvP see how long your turrets stay alive. And just to get a better perspective compare the fact that the more interesting phantasms are in your weapon bar, not utilities, plus look at turrets cd (rocket, thumper, net turret in particular for PvP) and supply crate cd https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Turret

Come on, do not compare continuous generation of illusions/phantasms with utilities such as turrets, it is just not at all the same thing and not the same purpose in sPvP. It is like comparing oranges and tomatoes.

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Posted by: Manuhell.2759

Manuhell.2759

They do not want minions to be effective in PvP. That has been obvious for years.

Short of a complete re-work, I think turrets are mostly dead in PvP.

Truth be told, I can live with this.

Honestly, i don’t care a bit whether they want or not for them to be effective.
Those utilities are there, and they have to work. In any mode.
If they don’t want them to be effective on purpose, then remove them and give us something that is supposed to work. But just don’t leave them to waste.
And for the love of the six gods, especially don’t make new ai-based skill types if they are purposefully designed to be useless in two thirds of the game. Cause it makes no sense at all, and it ends up being a waste of time for both us and them. Yes, i’m talking about gyro.

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Posted by: Nieguen.6235

Nieguen.6235

They do not want minions to be effective in PvP. That has been obvious for years.

Short of a complete re-work, I think turrets are mostly dead in PvP.

Truth be told, I can live with this.

Honestly, i don’t care a bit whether they want or not for them to be effective.
Those utilities are there, and they have to work. In any mode.
If they don’t want them to be effective on purpose, then remove them and give us something that is supposed to work. But just don’t leave them to waste.
And for the love of the six gods, especially don’t make new ai-based skill types if they are purposefully designed to be useless in two thirds of the game. Cause it makes no sense at all, and it ends up being a waste of time for both us and them. Yes, i’m talking about gyro.

^
This.

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Posted by: lorddarkflare.9186

lorddarkflare.9186

They do not want minions to be effective in PvP. That has been obvious for years.

Short of a complete re-work, I think turrets are mostly dead in PvP.

Truth be told, I can live with this.

Honestly, i don’t care a bit whether they want or not for them to be effective.
Those utilities are there, and they have to work. In any mode.
If they don’t want them to be effective on purpose, then remove them and give us something that is supposed to work. But just don’t leave them to waste.
And for the love of the six gods, especially don’t make new ai-based skill types if they are purposefully designed to be useless in two thirds of the game. Cause it makes no sense at all, and it ends up being a waste of time for both us and them. Yes, i’m talking about gyro.

Ehh, pretty much all classes have useless utility types or a gaggle of useless skills.

And I think it is pretty unreasonable to demand that all utilities be effective in every mode. That is just not going to happen and it already does not.

That said, I DO think the turrets should be updated and made useful. I just do not think that this will happen in the same way everyone expects them to. More likely than not, if turrets are useful gain, it will be in a completely different way than they are now.

Also, Gyros are not useless. And those that look to be, are thus not because they are A.I. (Blast Gyro, Shredder Gyro, Purge Gyro) but because they are poorly designed.

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Posted by: Manuhell.2759

Manuhell.2759

Ehh, pretty much all classes have useless utility types or a gaggle of useless skills.

And I think it is pretty unreasonable to demand that all utilities be effective in every mode. That is just not going to happen and it already does not.

Having all the utilities effective in all the modes of the game is what they should aim for, though. But there is quite some difference from ones being weak due to being balanced wrongly and ones made weak on purpose.
And while i can condone errors, i can’t stand the latter at all.
Especially if they even end up making new utilities while still following that same mindset.

That said, I DO think the turrets should be updated and made useful. I just do not think that this will happen in the same way everyone expects them to. More likely than not, if turrets are useful gain, it will be in a completely different way than they are now.

Eh, whatever. At least they would be useful that way. Whatever way is it.

Also, Gyros are not useless. And those that look to be, are thus not because they are A.I. (Blast Gyro, Shredder Gyro, Purge Gyro) but because they are poorly designed.

In PvP and WvW they will be, since they’ll survive just as much as a turret. That is, few seconds at most. They’re even supposed to follow the scrapper better now, thus they’ll likely end up getting damaged by any attack aimed at him, since they’re there as well.
In the best case they will just be used alike turrets, to get the initial effect and the detonation, and who cares about how they’re actually supposed to work.
You say that’s due of their design? Yeah, their issue is that they’ve been created as a sort of minion skill by developers that have a terrible mindset versus minion skills. And that’s all.

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Posted by: Ricky Rouse.1583

Ricky Rouse.1583

They do not want minions to be effective in PvP. That has been obvious for years.

Short of a complete re-work, I think turrets are mostly dead in PvP.

Truth be told, I can live with this.

Honestly, i don’t care a bit whether they want or not for them to be effective.
Those utilities are there, and they have to work. In any mode.
If they don’t want them to be effective on purpose, then remove them and give us something that is supposed to work. But just don’t leave them to waste.
And for the love of the six gods, especially don’t make new ai-based skill types if they are purposefully designed to be useless in two thirds of the game. Cause it makes no sense at all, and it ends up being a waste of time for both us and them. Yes, i’m talking about gyro.

Ehh, pretty much all classes have useless utility types or a gaggle of useless skills.

And I think it is pretty unreasonable to demand that all utilities be effective in every mode. That is just not going to happen and it already does not.

That said, I DO think the turrets should be updated and made useful. I just do not think that this will happen in the same way everyone expects them to. More likely than not, if turrets are useful gain, it will be in a completely different way than they are now.

Also, Gyros are not useless. And those that look to be, are thus not because they are A.I. (Blast Gyro, Shredder Gyro, Purge Gyro) but because they are poorly designed.

Kits are effective in every mode though. It’s possible, they just don’t even bother trying.

Turrets haven’t been touched since they were nerfed.

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Posted by: Killyox.3950

Killyox.3950

Well, recent changes they gave us in a patch were just tiny part of balance changes so I have some hopes for future :P

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Posted by: Nieguen.6235

Nieguen.6235

Well, recent changes they gave us in a patch were just tiny part of balance changes so I have some hopes for future :P

Hopefully it is not tiny, but seeing how they look into the engi, I do not expect much..

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Posted by: lorddarkflare.9186

lorddarkflare.9186

They do not want minions to be effective in PvP. That has been obvious for years.

Short of a complete re-work, I think turrets are mostly dead in PvP.

Truth be told, I can live with this.

Honestly, i don’t care a bit whether they want or not for them to be effective.
Those utilities are there, and they have to work. In any mode.
If they don’t want them to be effective on purpose, then remove them and give us something that is supposed to work. But just don’t leave them to waste.
And for the love of the six gods, especially don’t make new ai-based skill types if they are purposefully designed to be useless in two thirds of the game. Cause it makes no sense at all, and it ends up being a waste of time for both us and them. Yes, i’m talking about gyro.

Ehh, pretty much all classes have useless utility types or a gaggle of useless skills.

And I think it is pretty unreasonable to demand that all utilities be effective in every mode. That is just not going to happen and it already does not.

That said, I DO think the turrets should be updated and made useful. I just do not think that this will happen in the same way everyone expects them to. More likely than not, if turrets are useful gain, it will be in a completely different way than they are now.

Also, Gyros are not useless. And those that look to be, are thus not because they are A.I. (Blast Gyro, Shredder Gyro, Purge Gyro) but because they are poorly designed.

Kits are effective in every mode though. It’s possible, they just don’t even bother trying.

Turrets haven’t been touched since they were nerfed.

And? Turrets are the least of the class’s issues.

-Gadgets have been useless for so long that it is just sad now.
-Pistol 1 is still laughable, 3 is still super erratic and 5 is still useless.
-Healing Turret is still the only good heal
-Grenades still crowd out too many damage options
-Med Kit is an even bigger waste than it was before (and it was poor before)

Both they and us have much better things to worry about when it comes to the class.

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Posted by: Manuhell.2759

Manuhell.2759

Why should they even bother fixing all the other skills if people are fine with having kit builds as the only decent option?
You can’t have both kits as they’re now and a decently balanced class. And people seems to prefer the first option. So, nothing will change.

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Posted by: lorddarkflare.9186

lorddarkflare.9186

Why should they even bother fixing all the other skills if people are fine with having kit builds as the only decent option?
You can’t have both kits as they’re now and a decently balanced class. And people seems to prefer the first option. So, nothing will change.

People are not ‘fine’ with this. They just do not want to see kits gutted.

Most of the things on that list would weaken kit dominance.

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Posted by: glenndevis.8327

glenndevis.8327

Not every single utility will be useful in any gamemode. That’s close to impossible in this game. And even trying to balance them out would be a LOT of work.

I don’t mind if certain utilities are useless in certain situations… as long as every single utility has some use in at least 1 gamemode.

Let’s look at Slick Shoes. It’s more or less useless in PvE but in PvP (especially with Scrapper) it can be really useful. And i’m fine with that.

But true, there are way too many utilities that are barely ever used.

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Posted by: Manuhell.2759

Manuhell.2759

People are not ‘fine’ with this. They just do not want to see kits gutted.

Most of the things on that list would weaken kit dominance.

Half of those things can’t be done exactly because of kits as they’re now.
If a main weapon ends up good enough to be used standalone, it will be op when used with kits. (so, no point 2)
Weapons not got enough standalone means that by using multiple gadgets we will lack offensive power. And single gadget skills can’t provide the same firepower or utility of a whole kit, for obvious reasons. At most they can offer skills that weren’t purposefully put in kits, but that’s it. (so, can’t do point 1)
Grenades crowd out too many damage options? What to do about it? At most they can nerf it. Buffing the others would just make us able to profit from both, due to how freely we can swap between kits. But i doubt people would like a nerf, even if it is the only reasonable option. (thus, probably no point 4)

Healing turrets gets used because it is good. One of the few non kit skills we reliably use, at least. Would rather not see it gutted. But we could see the alternatives being made better.
And thank the six gods that the Med Kit didn’t end up as forcefully imposed as any other kit, i should add. I would rather see it too weak than as strong as any other kit.

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Posted by: Terrahero.9358

Terrahero.9358

Mh, this could make gyros indeed more reliable, at least in PvE. Gotta see how often they happen to get aggroed, though. And how cleaving attacks work against them.

Edit: ok, cleaving attacks that don’t target them directly have their damage reduced. Fine. Gotta test about the aggro when the changes go live then.

Edit 2: I missed the line about minions being in a good place for PvP. Guess they forgot already what they did to turrets. Or just never tried them after that change.

They do not want minions to be effective in PvP. That has been obvious for years.

Short of a complete re-work, I think turrets are mostly dead in PvP.

Truth be told, I can live with this.

Good thing they gave us another brand new line with more minions then…

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Posted by: lorddarkflare.9186

lorddarkflare.9186

Mh, this could make gyros indeed more reliable, at least in PvE. Gotta see how often they happen to get aggroed, though. And how cleaving attacks work against them.

Edit: ok, cleaving attacks that don’t target them directly have their damage reduced. Fine. Gotta test about the aggro when the changes go live then.

Edit 2: I missed the line about minions being in a good place for PvP. Guess they forgot already what they did to turrets. Or just never tried them after that change.

They do not want minions to be effective in PvP. That has been obvious for years.

Short of a complete re-work, I think turrets are mostly dead in PvP.

Truth be told, I can live with this.

Good thing they gave us another brand new line with more minions then…

Yeah, terrible decision.

Still they have learned some. They are much better than turrets as a whole. And a few of them are even worth taking for their tool-belt.

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Posted by: codesherwin.9346

codesherwin.9346

I’d be curious to see which of these options the majority of Engineer mains would rather have:

1) The Engineer class is re-worked to make it so that Kits are not the staple mechanic of the Engineer class (which would probably come with the addition of weapon swap to the class at the expense of how powerful kit skills are).
2) When adding or altering to the Engineer class and it’s Elite Specs, the devs design around kits (adding more kits, patching current kit bugs, focus on balancing kit kills).

With the June 23rd patch, I think that the devs started down the direction of option two. They tried to buff the Med Kit and they turned Mortar into an Elite Kit utility. However, they then went a completely different direction with the Scrapper specialization. The Gyro mechanic is about as far from the micro play style of multi-Kit builds as you get.

So I’m left confused which direction the devs want to go with the Engineer. Personally, I enjoy the Kit mechanic of Engineers. It’s what makes the class so unique. I would take Kits over weapon swap. To clarify, I don’t want to see the Engineer get driven towards the only viable builds requiring 3 or 4 kits. But I don’t see why you wouldn’t want to take at least 1 Kit (to mimic weapon swap).

It feels to me like Engineer mains just want more options. If Kits are going to remain fundamental to the Engineer class, I would like to see devs focus towards adding new Kits and balancing our current Kits to give players more options and trade-offs.