Guild Wars 2

You need a serious buff ( sorry this turned into a wall of text )

All the little tricks Engies have has always fascinated me and after lvling and full exotic gearing both a Warrior and a Thief I have rolled one. Thats hundreds of hours of game time already under my belt so I know whats what I reckon

I of course have been reading all of your specs and builds and rationalizations for X spec vs this wep w Y damage etc and your pure STUBBORNESS to make this very interesting class work is admirable

This class forum imo has the least crying of any that I see and so overall Engies must be the more mature crew. So since ya’ll are too stalwart to cry ima do it for you. ANET does listen, at least enough to look at things even if they dont immediately/ever make changes.

The so called " viable " DPS specs? Are a JOKE compared to what either of my other characters can do,

Rifle to lvl? a joke..nifty utility with the snare but comparing it to the Warrs pure DPS rifle and GS?..cant be done wont happen. The turrets are too slow and dont work..pistol? cmon..

Flamethrower? 425 range? lonnnng cast time for its damage Thats kitten useless for WvW.. coolest looking animation in game but please save it for cool screenshots.. its a joke.

Grenades for pvp? Whats all the oooh and ahh about? I see all the math you guys throw but bottom line is its very clunky and WAY sub par to my Thiefs shortbow… Thief 1 skill is a ricochet for 1500-2k on crit ( constantly ) and hits 3 ppl at 900 range on auto attack? Shortbow can also spam Cluster Bomb 5-6 times as fast as I can click for an AoE at 1200 range that no joke hits regularly for 5-9k and god help them if I get a high crit in a Blast field.. I have hit for 11k. But the engineers have the f2 skill on that godawful timer? for compareable damage to that. Dont forget the Thief has steal for 10 trait points that also hits for 5-9k with steal for their F1 attack on top of that.

Why isnt grenades the 1 key.. on autoattack and targeted? Give the class abreak.. Do you SEE what the other classes weapons can do ANET?

Don’t even get me going on what my Warr can do with a GS just running around auto attacking for 2-3k a pop with immunity up in a crowd of 10 ppl… Hundred blades for 12k+ ( dont beleive warrs when we say its hard to set up its not )

So many things don’t work, don’t hit hard enough..or aren’t synergistic albeit COOL looking with this class. just to test..I hopped on my thief and went to WvW… I singled out 10 engies..80’s only ( small pool yes but just to see ) I just ran straight at them in plain sight got to 900m hit steal…then still in plain sight..spammed my AE at my feet and chased them around spamming until I was out of Initiative, they were dead… or they did something so I could observe. 7 died within 5 seconds 3 had a ton of hp but couldnt hurt me so I stealthed and left to think about it. This was with a SHORTBOW only… on the other wep set is a sword/pistol auto atack that hits for 4k and a pistol whip that hits for 9k ( if it lands ) and a point blank AE blind.. w more blind and stun jus waitin in the kitty..

Necros? EAT my thief alive..Mesmers? 50/50 on both my warr and thief lol.. Warrs? a good warr kill this thief destroying you..often do its a fair fight..Even rangers can run away.. Eles? have a crazy combo that they do that kills me half the time..

**I know you guys take alot of pride in the complexity of this class and the skill needed to play it but that doesn’t mean its balanced. Your basic tools of operation are NOT in line with the other classes.. and other than rangers the most need of help from an offensive standpoint…and 2nd only to Necros in the clunky department..

I am going to lvl and explore the Elixir support/bunker role and thow mortars off walls at ppl just because it looks cool =) and maybe shoot my flamethrower through gates at ppl hehe ( for the screenshots )

GL you have my true respect and all your threads/guides help me alot

A played a thief since head start and it is currently my main. I love my thief. Squishy. But does nice burst damage.

Tried ranger. It was okay. But it did the job to get me to 80. Disappointing as they were much better in the first guild wars.

Tried warrior. It was a blast.

Tried guardian. Pretty good.

Tried elementalist. Feels very tedious. Does a little bit of damage, but very very squishy if you don’t do x, y and z all at once. Then again, didn’t enjoy ele in the first guild wars either.

Trying engineer… Feels on the same level as elementalists. Except engineers are a little more tanky than ele, but can’t do decent damage to save their life.

Many issues in the profession have been around since BWE1. Engineers are among the least played professions, on par with necros. The fact that we don’t complain as much about our deficiencies is likely less about patience and more about lack of confidence that improvements are coming any time soon.

That being said, I like my Engi, which is my main. My dungeon mates are glad to have me because I bring decent support. Will I see amazingly large numbers flash on my screen? No. Will I see an amazingly large number of small numbers flash on my screen? No. But dungeons run smoother with a team-oriented Engineer.

Eviator.9746:

Many issues in the profession have been around since BWE1. Engineers are among the least played professions, on par with necros. The fact that we don’t complain as much about our deficiencies is likely less about patience and more about lack of confidence that improvements are coming any time soon.

That being said, I like my Engi, which is my main. My dungeon mates are glad to have me because I bring decent support. Will I see amazingly large numbers flash on my screen? No. Will I see an amazingly large number of small numbers flash on my screen? No. But dungeons run smoother with a team-oriented Engineer.

And if you don’t want to go support? Are engineers the monks of guild wars 2?

Nice someone came in and told us all how good he is…lol thanks

HA HA if you dont want to play support then go play another profession- maybe that y engineers dont whine and moan as much? We dont expect to do big number damage- as Eviator said dungeons and small teamed grouped events go wayyy smoother with an engineer thats because of the support they do. i know that the ‘holy trinity’ has been abolished in favour of damage/control/support and all proffessions are not equal in these areas. This is what makes the proffessions different to play – not just the animations but the whole play style. In any other mmo a support class(healing is supporting) would not expect to do high end damage- In fact i can support spec and still burn(:)) my way through Pve more so than i could in other mmos as a healer. So +1 to Anet for making Pve as a support enjoyable. . . . Theres an old saying from far distant lands – “if i wanna go to the moors i better take my thief” and this game is no different.
I love the variety and “quirkiness”

The point was that the engineer is a valued support character in dungeons. In that way it makes up for it’s lack of DPS. Not all professions can be great at all of damage, support, and control. I don’t know whether the profession needs a buff as the OP suggestions. But if ANet decided not to buff engineers, I gave a good reason why.

Azure Prower.8701:

A played a thief since head start and it is currently my main. I love my thief. Squishy. But does nice burst damage.

Tried ranger. It was okay. But it did the job to get me to 80. Disappointing as they were much better in the first guild wars.

Tried warrior. It was a blast.

Tried guardian. Pretty good.

Tried elementalist. Feels very tedious. Does a little bit of damage, but very very squishy if you don’t do x, y and z all at once. Then again, didn’t enjoy ele in the first guild wars either.

Trying engineer… Feels on the same level as elementalists. Except engineers are a little more tanky than ele, but can’t do decent damage to save their life.

I have an 80 full exo glass cannon thief.

Does engineer DPS compare? No not really, but thieves and warriors are kings of PvE DPS at the moment, can engineer do as much or more damage than other classes? Yes.

I also have an 80 exo mesmer.

Engineer does more dps in PvE and offers far more support and utility.

Engineers who think their main weapons do good damage are the ones that are deadweights in dungeons.

And no, ele’s are more tanky than engis as long as they dont go glass cannon, engis have more control however.

In the earlier threads there is a lot of complaining about the engineer being a weak class. We just got tired of talking about it.

I see people saying we’re a support class. What warrior, thief, ele or any class for that matter feels that we’re a necessary part of any group. They can take care of themselves.

hmm where exactly is the engi a better supporter (or even close to) an ele, a guardian or a nec? healing? well, then you actualy never played a guardian…heck even a warri can do more healing and better support with his banners/shout….combo fields? mesmer, guardian, ele…then perhaps engi…so where exactly is the great suppport commin from? blind?→thief…. this is an honest question, cause i`m leveling an engi-alt right now..and i just don`t see any great support compared to my other chars….yes nades are funny..but aside from aoe-effects it`s still not that amazing.

Engi support isn’t bad at all, it does offer a variety of fields if you take elixir gun/bombs though, lots of knockbacks too.

People who say engineer best support? I disagree, title should go to guardian or ele. Grenades IMO are horrible for this class as they are the go to weapon for DPS at any range.

the elixir gun, healing turret and the right traits(409) is amazing support, even with no +healing gear.

OP’s assessment is a joke
you can’t understand the beauty of this class by embarrassing a few noobs in WvW, then starting an alt.

what? healing turret..surely not…regenaration does not stack, the strongest regeneration effect counts first..so as soon as there`s an ele or guard/banner warri the turret and the waterfield are useless. bubbles? all other classes, blindspam..other classes.
as mentioned i don`t wanna hate on the engi, but i just don`t see the support-greatness…regeneration and water-field are completly uninteresting.
i get the condition-removing combofield, that`s one thing…but what else is there? Nofo is right, yes the combofields are nice to have, but honestly i would always favour aether-fields…chaosarmor is just way to strong atm. .

@ OP, is your engineer 80 with full exotics as well? It would be very unintelligent to compare an 80 thief and 80 warrior, both in full exotics, to an engineer, still in the leveling process, wearing blues and greens.

I can understand your views on some things OP, but for the most part, you have down right incorrect information and appear very misinformed on several skills and abilities, as well as how they work. Of course it does show a severe lack of judgement to compare the engineer to the two heavily over powered classes.

My main is an Engineer. 80 with full Exotics. I have it as a Tank Spec in WvW, and use Mortar ALOT. A single Engineer with Mortar can slow, if not stop, a zerg in it’s tracks, by letting the team rush forward. Dropping this down, and launching it into an opposing team pushes them back. Even one Engineer can make a difference, and turn the tide(Mortar has a nice AoE Heal). If that’s not support I don’t know what is! lol

Warriors and Thieves? Glue Shot, Poison Dart Volley, and Blowtorch has worked well against them. Slick Shoes stop them cold, and gives you a huge opening when they fall. Using a Shield/Pistol works nicely, as well as Tool Kit(box of nails, Pry Bar, and Thwack, along with Gear Shield is nice). I use this combo when it’s time to go melee. Alchemy(properly slotted) can give you amazing survivability. The trick is using trait skills that compliment each other. But that’s just me.

My main problem is I have too many fun toys to play with.

Yes. Warriors and Thieves have High DPS. Get an Engineer who knows what they are doing, who has a fundamental grasp of their traits and skills, and he/she can wear you down.

I don’t gripe about the ‘serious buff needed’. If the devs decide it’s needed, then good. I play to have fun. This class jumped out at me because of the unique-ness of it. It’s technical, yes, but extremely enjoyable.

coglin.1496:

@ OP, is your engineer 80 with full exotics as well? It would be very unintelligent to compare an 80 thief and 80 warrior, both in full exotics, to an engineer, still in the leveling process, wearing blues and greens.

I can understand your views on some things OP, but for the most part, you have down right incorrect information and appear very misinformed on several skills and abilities, as well as how they work. Of course it does show a severe lack of judgement to compare the engineer to the two heavily over powered classes.

Welcome to the forums OP, meet coglin.

Neither warrior or thief are heavily overpowered however they are DPS powerhouses that make engineer look like a wet noodle. This is comparing a full exo engi to full exo thief.

How is it a severe lack of judgement to compare these classes together?

Which abilities do you feel OP is misinformed about, I am not sure about the warrior abilities he was talking about but the thief comparisons were spot on.

nofo.8469:

I also have an 80 exo mesmer.

Engineer does more dps in PvE and offers far more support and utility.

I dunno about that. I kinda feel that mesmer who can consistently apply aegis and chaos shield in AOE is more usefull for organised group.

chaos field + ~15 might stacks to melee + quickness elite

Engineers offer healing, 25 stacks of vuln and bomb fields if they have it.

Comes out pretty even actually tbh you are correct. Still, engineer does slightly more dps (nothing to brag about)

Well I guess engi is more usefull for pugs, offering massive condition removal for those glass canons, a lot of slows\snares and some healing.

Mesmers are better for organized groups who can make use of chaos storm and combo fields through positioning. Just my thoughts.

Jonathan.1580:

Why isnt grenades the 1 key.. on autoattack and targeted? Give the class abreak.. Do you SEE what the other classes weapons can do ANET?

Because it would miss all of the time due to grenade travel time, since people are/should be moving (talking WvW here), or are you saying you want the grenades to hit people instantly, autoattacked, targeted, AoE and over range? oO
That would be imbalanced (imho).

I actually agree. I think we are a unfinished class with lots of potentien!
I’m still crying about it, but we’re kinda divided into 50/50 about the discussion if we are weak/unfinished or not.

But still, now I red your thread, I feel very weak with my engineer…

Kalas.4537:

hmm where exactly is the engi a better supporter (or even close to) an ele, a guardian or a nec? healing? well, then you actualy never played a guardian…heck even a warri can do more healing and better support with his banners/shout….combo fields? mesmer, guardian, ele…then perhaps engi…so where exactly is the great suppport commin from? blind?->thief…. this is an honest question, cause i`m leveling an engi-alt right now..and i just don`t see any great support compared to my other chars….yes nades are funny..but aside from aoe-effects it`s still not that amazing.

What makes engineers amazing is their versatility. We are not scalpels – we are swiss army knives. One particular build I like provides fully traited grenades, fully traited bombheals, 4 combo fields (water, fire, smoke, and poison), 8 finishers (6 blast, 1 leap, 1 projectile), single target and AoE knockback, single target and AoE immobilize, AoE Chill, 2 AoE blinds, AoE Confuse, and AoE bleed. That’s on top of the AoE health regen, and the gear for it is tanky enough that I can stand with the melee and not get instantly vaporized.

And if I don’t feel like being a support and utility powerhouse, I can just as easily spec and gear for rifle burst damage and be right up there with the rest of you glass cannons.

Granted, the Engineer has a fairly high skill requirement. This is not a class where you can expect to mash 2-3 buttons and win the game. A well-played engineer is a beast, though, able to take care of herself and her group besides.

sorry if this post comes off as something i do not intend it to be, but tl:dr i read a couple of lines and all i saw was you comparing other classes to us, well, i leveled pure rifle, only afterwords did i discover at like level 70 something that pistol was way higher dps, and also its really easy, yeah sure you dont get to walk around and press two buttons but instead you get to walk around feeling like the sherif of the wild west because you can kite you but off and you have lots more practice than other classes, you also have to put lots of thought into your utility skills unlike warriors, where thought still comes into play, but its mainly using the weapon skills. dont get me wrong here i love warriors and am not bashing them, but the fact is that some classes take more time and more involvement to play than others.

We aren’t weak. One of the strongest skirmish professions in the game IMO. The real issue sPVP wise is bein stat limited. I run unconventional stat and build breakdown you can’t make in sPVP. It’s incredibly effective in WvW but when I want to sPVP I usually play something else bc I feel much less effective than my WvW Engi build.

You cannot compare us to a thief or war. They should do more outright DPS, bc ill bounce them all around and CC them to death and back as is. If I could do that + burst as hard as them would be stupid.

All the Engi needs are bug fixes. Those who think the profession is weak should be playing something else. Engi is far from weak.

Velron.3729:

We aren’t weak. One of the strongest skirmish professions in the game IMO. The real issue sPVP wise is bein stat limited. I run unconventional stat and build breakdown you can’t make in sPVP. It’s incredibly effective in WvW but when I want to sPVP I usually play something else bc I feel much less effective than my WvW Engi build.

You cannot compare us to a thief or war. They should do more outright DPS, bc ill bounce them all around and CC them to death and back as is. If I could do that + burst as hard as them would be stupid.

All the Engi needs are bug fixes. Those who think the profession is weak should be playing something else. Engi is far from weak.

[Edit]Thank You!

im quite tired of seeing people cry about how weak we are :/

Scribbles.3974:

Velron.3729:

We aren’t weak. One of the strongest skirmish professions in the game IMO. The real issue sPVP wise is bein stat limited. I run unconventional stat and build breakdown you can’t make in sPVP. It’s incredibly effective in WvW but when I want to sPVP I usually play something else bc I feel much less effective than my WvW Engi build.

You cannot compare us to a thief or war. They should do more outright DPS, bc ill bounce them all around and CC them to death and back as is. If I could do that + burst as hard as them would be stupid.

All the Engi needs are bug fixes. Those who think the profession is weak should be playing something else. Engi is far from weak.

[Edit]Thank You!

im quite tired of seeing people cry about how weak we are :/

Engi since early access day 1 and my only alt is lvl 15. I love the profession.

Velron.3729:

Scribbles.3974:

Velron.3729:

We aren’t weak. One of the strongest skirmish professions in the game IMO. The real issue sPVP wise is bein stat limited. I run unconventional stat and build breakdown you can’t make in sPVP. It’s incredibly effective in WvW but when I want to sPVP I usually play something else bc I feel much less effective than my WvW Engi build.

You cannot compare us to a thief or war. They should do more outright DPS, bc ill bounce them all around and CC them to death and back as is. If I could do that + burst as hard as them would be stupid.

All the Engi needs are bug fixes. Those who think the profession is weak should be playing something else. Engi is far from weak.

[Edit]Thank You!

im quite tired of seeing people cry about how weak we are :/

Engi since early access day 1 and my only alt is lvl 15. I love the profession.

played a ranger first, said scre this, went engi, and now all my alts arent over level 10 besides my ranger which is still at 40 something :/

Haha I was Ranger in BWE 1 and 2. Went Engi BWE3 and never looked back.

Velron.3729:

Haha I was Ranger in BWE 1 and 2. Went Engi BWE3 and never looked back.

whats funny is that even though ive never played the bwe any of them, and when i got into the actual game, i looked at engi first, and was like “….ehhh” went ranger, and was like “oh heck yes!” later i figured out that my pet was too much of an asset to keep dying so i went engi and never looked back after that XD, i love love love the utility we have and our damage is actually very existant and real, my burns at lvl 80 atm tick for around 600 and my bleeds with no might tick for around 85-90 :/ so idk what people are talking about XD

It seems there are several underlying currents in OP’s thought pattern as displayed in the first post.

1) I have no idea how to play an engineer and I really don’t want to admit it. I’m very good at playing warrior and thief though!
2) Since I can kill people easily as glass cannon warrior or thief, the fact that I can’t do anything with my low level engineer must be because the class is broken.
3) Now that I’ve established the engineer class is broken, and I really rock on my warrior and thief, everyone who can actually play an engineer must be delusional. If I can’t do it, nobody can!
4) I even brought proof by recounting my great deeds of killing random engineers in WvWvW on my thief! So thief > engineer, and warrior > thief, and necro > thief, and mesmer > necros, and therefore 1+1 = mushrooms and I once again proved that engineer is a broken class. Oh, by the way, I probably forgot to mentioned that really rock on my warrior and thief.

Did I miss anything? >.>

Now for something constructive:

a) Most classes in this game can stick to a single weapon set with accompanying utility skills to be effective. Engineers, on the other hand, rarely stay in any one kit or weapon for more than few seconds before switching to another kit to chain skills together. There is no such thing as “grenade pvp” or “rifle pvp”, because every pvp build for the engineer uses every tool available, constantly.

This particular mechanic takes a bit more practice to master, but can get you results that you cannot get anywhere else. An engineer literally needs to press 8+ buttons to accomplish certain things thieves and warriors can do by pressing 4, such as in the case of burst. However, by pressing a different set of 8 buttons the engineer can run from a zerg at 200% speed while blocking, chilling, and knocking down pursuers, or AoE CC and burst an area at 1200 range plus area denial via spammable AoE at 1500 range, or pull a target out of the front lines of a zerg, immobilize it, and knock it towards your lines at the same time as crippling and chilling the enemy to prevent anyone from saving that target. All of that can be done with a single spec out of several viable specs, on the fly, and with no need to switch skills.

b) Engineers’ PvP burst is high and mostly ranged AoE. Yes, an engineer can burst higher than a warrior in many circumstances. Concurrent to this burst is a CC chain in which the opponent can do nothing to avoid damage short of invulnerability or block (preemptive stability or reflect can work also, but must be applied prior to the first CC). Obviously you need to be 80 and be in full exotics to burst effectively. Properly geared, you are looking at a 20-25k burst/cc chain in 5-6 seconds which can be extended to ~10 seconds for 35-40k damage, but you’d have to use an elite skill to do so.

c) Engineers can have a ton of CCs available while maintaining burst potential. In a 1 vs 1, an engineer can use CCs to lock down a target until it dies with the target having little chance to resist. In a small scale skirmish, an engineer can lock down multiple targets so your side can get the kills, leaving no chance of retreat for the enemy. The bonus is engineer burst and CCs are often AoE instead of single target, so one CC/burst chain and you’d have a lot of hurt targets ready to be picked off.

d) An engineer’s effective range in a rifle/grenade setup is 400-1500 yards, with optimal range being 400-1200. Anyone who gets within 400 can be CCed and/or knocked right back out. Anyone at 400-1200 range can be targets for burst. Anyone at 1200-1500 range must either keep moving or take damage and vulnerability stacks.

If you want to learn how to play a class, leave your ego at the door and ask for advice. You’d get far more out of it that way.

Istarien.3147:

Kalas.4537:

hmm where exactly is the engi a better supporter (or even close to) an ele, a guardian or a nec? healing? well, then you actualy never played a guardian…heck even a warri can do more healing and better support with his banners/shout….combo fields? mesmer, guardian, ele…then perhaps engi…so where exactly is the great suppport commin from? blind?->thief…. this is an honest question, cause i`m leveling an engi-alt right now..and i just don`t see any great support compared to my other chars….yes nades are funny..but aside from aoe-effects it`s still not that amazing.

What makes engineers amazing is their versatility. We are not scalpels – we are swiss army knives. One particular build I like provides fully traited grenades, fully traited bombheals, 4 combo fields (water, fire, smoke, and poison), 8 finishers (6 blast, 1 leap, 1 projectile), single target and AoE knockback, single target and AoE immobilize, AoE Chill, 2 AoE blinds, AoE Confuse, and AoE bleed. That’s on top of the AoE health regen, and the gear for it is tanky enough that I can stand with the melee and not get instantly vaporized.

And if I don’t feel like being a support and utility powerhouse, I can just as easily spec and gear for rifle burst damage and be right up there with the rest of you glass cannons.

Granted, the Engineer has a fairly high skill requirement. This is not a class where you can expect to mash 2-3 buttons and win the game. A well-played engineer is a beast, though, able to take care of herself and her group besides.

When i look at this…well it looks good…then i run a explo-mode-insertrandomdungeonname and the party is like 3warris1guard1mesmer or 4warrs1nec..and i do get reminded why you don`t need any of this.
As mentioned : regeneration doesn`t count, it doesn`t stack, you will never get the reg of an ele or guard, etc. ..their effects count, yours just up the duration.
What do you need fire for? To apply a burning or get fire-aura? Water?
Poison is great no doubt and smoke is awesome too, then a mesmer hops along and you see chaosarmor. AoE immboilize..i don`t know bout your explo-runs, but most runs i see is just everyone smacking mobs at point-plank-range (some bosses excluded) and nasty ranged mobs are bubbled, if it`s realy neccesary. AoE-blind? Well there`s the blind spamming thief…AoE-confuse is useless, AoE-bleed is just a little damage up..and again stacks end at 25.

But well i`m still trying to find a useful expo-build…it just feels so kitten useless in comparsion to my guard, mesmer or my warri.
After reading through this thread i just get the feeling many here don`t know how others classes work at 80…or what they can/do offer.
Haven`t tried the knockdown-build someone mentioned here, perhaps that has some use against trash…will try.
I`m not talking pvp or wvw, just explo-modes (the whole rest of pve-content is a faceroll anyway).

nofo.8469:

Welcome to the forums OP, meet coglin.

I can introduce myself, thanks. If i want a personal assistant, I will let you know though.

nofo.8469:

Neither warrior or thief are heavily overpowered however they are DPS powerhouses that make engineer look like a wet noodle. This is comparing a full exo engi to full exo thief.

That is a matter of opinion, and it appears the majority of the discussions from each profession severely disagree with you. Your opinion is in the minority.

nofo.8469:

How is it a severe lack of judgement to compare these classes together?

Because logically, you cannot compare to the 2 highest damage professions and expect any equivalence in damage. Stating it has harshly and often as the OP does, is about as relevant as proclaiming the sky is blue.

nofo.8469:

Which abilities do you feel OP is misinformed about, I am not sure about the warrior abilities he was talking about but the thief comparisons were spot on.

1) claiming Flame thrower has a 425 range, when 2 of its skills are 600.

2) His exclamation that flame thrower is “kitten” useless in WvW.

3) The fact that He makes up things out of thin air and declares that certain classes automatically and by default defeat other classes. it is a very mis-informed statement to make.

coglin.1496:

nofo.8469:

Welcome to the forums OP, meet coglin.

I can introduce myself, thanks. If i want a personal assistant, I will let you know though.

nofo.8469:

Neither warrior or thief are heavily overpowered however they are DPS powerhouses that make engineer look like a wet noodle. This is comparing a full exo engi to full exo thief.

That is a matter of opinion, and it appears the majority of the discussions from each profession severely disagree with you. Your opinion is in the minority.

nofo.8469:

How is it a severe lack of judgement to compare these classes together?

Because logically, you cannot compare to the 2 highest damage professions and expect any equivalence in damage. Stating it has harshly and often as the OP does, is about as relevant as proclaiming the sky is blue.

nofo.8469:

Which abilities do you feel OP is misinformed about, I am not sure about the warrior abilities he was talking about but the thief comparisons were spot on.

1) claiming Flame thrower has a 425 range, when 2 of its skills are 600.

2) His exclamation that flame thrower is “kitten” useless in WvW.

3) The fact that He makes up things out of thin air and declares that certain classes automatically and by default defeat other classes. it is a very mis-informed statement to make.

He probably introduced you because you are on the other side of the table in this discussions trying to mock you. Yes I am working as captain obvious sidekick now.

Whichg group thinks what and more important how big that group is, is not a argument in here. Because the majority thinks something is true does not make it true.

You can compare those classes, but you can not expect the same amount of damage output. But ‘not the same’ does not mean, that we are bad at dps (I think we are) and they uterly good, burning me down in 4 seconds. A good warrior will win from a good engineer.

1) You are right.
2) an opinion. You are very good at seeing what is an opinion or not, but never state that some of your sayings are opinions aswell.
3) the term average speaks for its self. We can keep saying ‘a kitten engineer, will win from a kitten thief’. But sadly, the vast majority of the people are average players and they can’t do a thing with all of those ‘do these 1000 things and you will just make it against a thief!’.

Ferum Flamebender.5910:

He probably introduced you because you are on the other side of the table in this discussions trying to mock you. Yes I am working as captain obvious sidekick now.

I am reasonably certain he can speak for himself. He can always call you if he needs a personal assistant though.

It says alot about you, to see you promoting trolling and attempting to justify trolling.

Kalas.4537:

When i look at this…well it looks good…then i run a explo-mode-insertrandomdungeonname and the party is like 3warris1guard1mesmer or 4warrs1nec..and i do get reminded why you don`t need any of this.
As mentioned : regeneration doesn`t count, it doesn`t stack, you will never get the reg of an ele or guard, etc. ..their effects count, yours just up the duration.
What do you need fire for? To apply a burning or get fire-aura? Water?
Poison is great no doubt and smoke is awesome too, then a mesmer hops along and you see chaosarmor. AoE immboilize..i don`t know bout your explo-runs, but most runs i see is just everyone smacking mobs at point-plank-range (some bosses excluded) and nasty ranged mobs are bubbled, if it`s realy neccesary. AoE-blind? Well there`s the blind spamming thief…AoE-confuse is useless, AoE-bleed is just a little damage up..and again stacks end at 25.

But well i`m still trying to find a useful expo-build…it just feels so kitten useless in comparsion to my guard, mesmer or my warri.
After reading through this thread i just get the feeling many here don`t know how others classes work at 80…or what they can/do offer.
Haven`t tried the knockdown-build someone mentioned here, perhaps that has some use against trash…will try.
I`m not talking pvp or wvw, just explo-modes (the whole rest of pve-content is a faceroll anyway).

And here, there’s evidence of people not understanding the full potential of GW2’s combat system. Have you ever taken deliberate advantage of combo fields and finishers? Put down a fire field. Apply a blast finisher. You get a stack of might. Apply 25 blast finishers, and you get 25 stacks of might. That’s a tall order for a small group, but if you have an Engineer specced 30 points in Alchemy with HGH traited, you can get really close to max might stacks with some intelligent play. And water? AoE heals of various descriptions. Additional finishers either magnify the effect or lengthen it. Or how about vulnerability? An engineer can put up 25 stacks of vulnerability on a single target all by themselves with the right setup.

Some of the easiest dungeons you’ll ever run are groups that take serious advantage of these mechanics. My guild runs a Panzer force for WvW, and it’s just as effective in PvE – 4 support-specced heavies and an engi/ele/mesmer/thief for utility. Build those might stacks and it’s like the dungeon suddenly became a game of Candyland.

Or don’t, if your group isn’t coordinated enough or has enough of that utility elsewhere. Most people in my guild have the sense to spec for utility, so I most often get asked to spec rifle DD/grenades for reliable ST and AoE damage that’s good at range, good in the water, and good against architecture elements whose hit boxes are currently wonky (I’m looking at you, graveling burrows).

That is a matter of opinion, and it appears the majority of the discussions from each profession severely disagree with you. Your opinion is in the minority.

The majority of people are very bad, if glass thieves for example were so OP you would see much more of them in tourny play (you rarely do because it is a bad spec designed solely to humiliate noobs) the rendering issue is game breaking but balancing a class around a bug is stupid.

I’m glad you fall into the majority opinion though.

Because logically, you cannot compare to the 2 highest damage professions and expect any equivalence in damage. Stating it has harshly and often as the OP does, is about as relevant as proclaiming the sky is blue.

Equivalence of damage? Should you expect a full exo dps thief to do roughly double the DPS as a full exo engineer? No you should not.

1) claiming Flame thrower has a 425 range, when 2 of its skills are 600.
2) His exclamation that flame thrower is “kitten” useless in WvW.
3) The fact that He makes up things out of thin air and declares that certain classes automatically and by default defeat other classes. it is a very mis-informed statement to make.

That’s some pretty serious misinformation.

Do tell what you use flamethrower for in WvW though.

I agree his certain classes beating other classes every time is misinformed however. Only time a necro will beat a thief every fight is if thief is condition spec. Good support ele will generally win vs thief 1v1 but warrior? Its in the thiefs favour imo.

Mesmer vs thief is about 50/50 as he said though.

nofo.8469:

Do tell what you use flamethrower for in WvW though.

Might stacks, significant added toughness for defense, nice melee range AoE, the AoE blind, and a knock back.

Pannonica.5378:

Jonathan.1580:

Why isnt grenades the 1 key.. on autoattack and targeted? Give the class abreak.. Do you SEE what the other classes weapons can do ANET?

Because it would miss all of the time due to grenade travel time, since people are/should be moving (talking WvW here), or are you saying you want the grenades to hit people instantly, autoattacked, targeted, AoE and over range? oO
That would be imbalanced (imho).

It already does it while underwater though? What’s the difference there?

Mysticforce.5096:

b) Engineers’ PvP burst is high and mostly ranged AoE. Yes, an engineer can burst higher than a warrior in many circumstances. Concurrent to this burst is a CC chain in which the opponent can do nothing to avoid damage short of invulnerability or block (preemptive stability or reflect can work also, but must be applied prior to the first CC). Obviously you need to be 80 and be in full exotics to burst effectively. Properly geared, you are looking at a 20-25k burst/cc chain in 5-6 seconds which can be extended to ~10 seconds for 35-40k damage, but you’d have to use an elite skill to do so.

If you want to learn how to play a class, leave your ego at the door and ask for advice. You’d get far more out of it that way.

Im leaving my ego and asking for advice, can I see this 40k damage build please?

coglin.1496:

nofo.8469:

Do tell what you use flamethrower for in WvW though.

Might stacks, significant added toughness for defense, nice melee range AoE, the AoE blind, and a knock back.

This exactly. When I run FT in WvW, I run with our frontline infantry to help soften up the opposition, mitigate some of their damage, and herd them into the teeth of our hammer wielders.

Azure Prower.8701:

Pannonica.5378:

Jonathan.1580:

Why isnt grenades the 1 key.. on autoattack and targeted? Give the class abreak.. Do you SEE what the other classes weapons can do ANET?

Because it would miss all of the time due to grenade travel time, since people are/should be moving (talking WvW here), or are you saying you want the grenades to hit people instantly, autoattacked, targeted, AoE and over range? oO
That would be imbalanced (imho).

It already does it while underwater though? What’s the difference there?

The difference is, that under water targets have no reference point in terms of a surface they are standing on. Imagine hitting a target floating in space with a ground targeted attack. Impossible… you need to have auto-target there, because you have no ground.

I want to take the conversation back to the OP. I played a warrior to 80, realised that running around and hitting things gets old after a while. What gets me interested in playing is utility and being able to help others.

Anet has tried to have utility in the warrior, but the engineer seems to play much more of a clutch role in utility. That is why I chose to play an engineer next.

That and the fact that I can use a kit that debuffs weakness with a dart, spray poison out of its tip, shoot acid, and launch elixirs, and thats just 1 kit. Frankly for me, it is always because we have alot more style and flavor.

well said coglin, I love the thought of having too much to choose from in a profession.

I agree engineers need changes, certain builds need buffs, and certain builds and abilities on other professions need buffs or nerfs as well. But I do not think that every build on every professions has to be numerically balanced.

I do not see a real reason why engineer dps has to be equal to that of warriors or thieves when we can already provide utilities or skills in the way they cannot.

Already with a 10 point trait and elixir gun we can exceed the amount of condition removal either of these professions can easily supply. Even with fully traited shout warriors using rune sets, the condition removal from kit refinement + EG is a close match.

As long as we have the flexibility in our roles, and our roles are meaningful in their contributions I think we are fine.

That does not preclude balancing on our or other professions dps, but every profession does not need to be exactly mirrored but with differently themed / arranged skills / animations.

That would suck.

Warriors, using only an untraited “Shake it off,” have arguably as much support capability as an engineer in any role simply due to the extremely low-cooldown teamwide stun break. Specced for support, Warriors drastically exceed anything an engineer can bring to the table, while still doing as much or more damage. This isn’t a question of homogenization, it’s one of balance.

I agree with SF… warriors can have a lot of utility, but I feel that there are basically maybe 2-3 viable utility builds for the warrior, while I see much more opportunity in the engineer to do the same thing.

Currently I am running around with an 80 warrior with the standard “shouts heal” build, and think its rather boring but don’t see any way of surviving all the conditions thrown at me with a different build.

Istarien.3147:

Kalas.4537:

When i look at this…well it looks good…then i run a explo-mode-insertrandomdungeonname and the party is like 3warris1guard1mesmer or 4warrs1nec..and i do get reminded why you don`t need any of this.
As mentioned : regeneration doesn`t count, it doesn`t stack, you will never get the reg of an ele or guard, etc. ..their effects count, yours just up the duration.
What do you need fire for? To apply a burning or get fire-aura? Water?
Poison is great no doubt and smoke is awesome too, then a mesmer hops along and you see chaosarmor. AoE immboilize..i don`t know bout your explo-runs, but most runs i see is just everyone smacking mobs at point-plank-range (some bosses excluded) and nasty ranged mobs are bubbled, if it`s realy neccesary. AoE-blind? Well there`s the blind spamming thief…AoE-confuse is useless, AoE-bleed is just a little damage up..and again stacks end at 25.

But well i`m still trying to find a useful expo-build…it just feels so kitten useless in comparsion to my guard, mesmer or my warri.
After reading through this thread i just get the feeling many here don`t know how others classes work at 80…or what they can/do offer.
Haven`t tried the knockdown-build someone mentioned here, perhaps that has some use against trash…will try.
I`m not talking pvp or wvw, just explo-modes (the whole rest of pve-content is a faceroll anyway).

And here, there’s evidence of people not understanding the full potential of GW2’s combat system. Have you ever taken deliberate advantage of combo fields and finishers? Put down a fire field. Apply a blast finisher. You get a stack of might. Apply 25 blast finishers, and you get 25 stacks of might. That’s a tall order for a small group, but if you have an Engineer specced 30 points in Alchemy with HGH traited, you can get really close to max might stacks with some intelligent play. And water? AoE heals of various descriptions. Additional finishers either magnify the effect or lengthen it. Or how about vulnerability? An engineer can put up 25 stacks of vulnerability on a single target all by themselves with the right setup.

Some of the easiest dungeons you’ll ever run are groups that take serious advantage of these mechanics. My guild runs a Panzer force for WvW, and it’s just as effective in PvE – 4 support-specced heavies and an engi/ele/mesmer/thief for utility. Build those might stacks and it’s like the dungeon suddenly became a game of Candyland.

Or don’t, if your group isn’t coordinated enough or has enough of that utility elsewhere. Most people in my guild have the sense to spec for utility, so I most often get asked to spec rifle DD/grenades for reliable ST and AoE damage that’s good at range, good in the water, and good against architecture elements whose hit boxes are currently wonky (I’m looking at you, graveling burrows).

Oh, i do know bout combo-mechanics, but i have never seen an engie beeing that useful…gotta admit those where random-engies most of the time. That`s one of the reasons i started gettin (now) one as my 4th alt.
And i must admit i was wrong..like completly wrong. Took me a while, but after running quite alot PvE lately i`ve seen the amazing number of diffrent fields you can put out with ease..even thinking of maining the engie now. Chaosarmor is still srong as hell imho, but the mass of fields on the engie just owns the class of chaosarmor.
I tried a pure shotty-dps-spec as well, changed some gear around and utility-talents..and it plain rocks.
I never questioned the dps of nades, i was just wondering bout the “great support”, but well learned something new there
So as mentioned, i was totaly wrong. You still don`t need any of this support …most of the time we are running 4warris one guard/mesmer, but it`s kinda fun to play atleast.
But i do get why so many people are complaining bout the class, or sucking with it..it`s kinda complicated to see the golden-land here…but when you`ve been there…you just don`t wanna come back anymore.

Helcor.9527:

Mysticforce.5096:

b) Engineers’ PvP burst is high and mostly ranged AoE. Yes, an engineer can burst higher than a warrior in many circumstances. Concurrent to this burst is a CC chain in which the opponent can do nothing to avoid damage short of invulnerability or block (preemptive stability or reflect can work also, but must be applied prior to the first CC). Obviously you need to be 80 and be in full exotics to burst effectively. Properly geared, you are looking at a 20-25k burst/cc chain in 5-6 seconds which can be extended to ~10 seconds for 35-40k damage, but you’d have to use an elite skill to do so.

If you want to learn how to play a class, leave your ego at the door and ask for advice. You’d get far more out of it that way.

Im leaving my ego and asking for advice, can I see this 40k damage build please?

That’s 35-40k over ~10 seconds (or ~12 seconds depending on variation of burst chain), so don’t expect to be able to explode someone before they know you are there. But, one added bonus is there’s very little your target can do to survive unless they are traited for survival or is a running a bunker build of some kind (in which case it takes longer to kill them, but you will still kill them).

The build I am currently using is a variation of grenade/rifle and made for WvWvW – don’t try this in sPvP. Note that this build is mostly for solo camps, scouting, roaming, 1 vs small group (2 is doable, 3 is iffy, 4 only if they are engaged with NPCs), and small scale skirmishes. It can certainly function well in a zerg, but is not optimally built for it, although it can certain escape from a zerg. It is more survivable but has less burst compared to the pure glass cannon variation.

30 Explosives
- Forceful Explosives (can be switched out for Incendiary Powder for extra damage as needed)
- Explosive Powder
- Grenadier

20 Firearms
- Hair Trigger / Rifle Barrels (switch in and out according to need – sometimes you want longer range instead of faster refresh)
- Rifle Mod

20 Tools
- Speedy Kits
- Static Discharge

Gear is full Knights, runes of divinity + berserker accessories. Sigil of Rage (don’t rely on it, but nice boost to burst whenever it does proc) Stats are:

Power: 2185 (2006 with kit)
Precision: 1872 (1744 with kit)
Toughness: 1291
Vitality 976
Crit : 50 (43% with kit)
Crit Dmg: 77% (68% with kit)

Skills:
Medkit
Grenade Kit
Slick Shoes
Tool Kit
Supply Drop

Burst Chain:
This assumes you are approaching from range, hopefully not from a direction that your target can see. If you start in melee then you’d want to use Jump Shot before Overcharged shot:
1. Use Stimulant prior to combat, medkit #5
2. Auto attack as you approach target. Can use Super Speed (toolbelt #3) to close quickly as needed.
3. Net shot, rifle #2
4. Grenade Barrage, toolbelt #2
5. Blunderbuss, rifle #3
6. Wrench, toolbelt #4
7. Overcharged shot, rifle #4
8. Jump Shot, rifle #5
9. Supply Drop, elite (may need to aim if you know the target will attempt to dodge)
10. Grenade #2
11. Grenade #1
12. Slick Shoes, utility #2
13. Rifle auto attack
13. Net shot, rifle #2
14. Blunderbuss, rifle #3

That’s ~20 button presses to set this up, but you are rewarded with a fully locked down target, plus plenty of AoE damage and CC for any of his friends nearby. There are obviously variations to the CC chain that can be used, such as squeezing in toolkit #4 when you know someone is going to try a stun on you, or switch to grenades early if a Mesmer or Thief tries to stealth…etc. This chain is just for straight up damage and control.

Glass cannon anything except necros and warriors rarely survive beyond step 8 unless they pop a reflect or block immediately upon being immobilized, or invulnerability.

Like all things in this game, counters exist. While Immobilize is a very powerful CC, it does not prevent your targets from using skills – they just can’t dodge to avoid damage. People with fast reactions or who are familiar with engineer burst can and will break this chain by timing abilities – I’ve certainly done it on both engineer and necro before. The key is to adjust the burst chain on the fly to suit the situation. Thankfully you are playing an engineer – you have a tool for every situation.

If somehow you find yourself at a disadvantage, pop toolkit #4 and Super Speed (toolbelt #2) and get out of there. Heal up with medkit, wait for skills to refresh, then come back for a second round.

Hmm, now this thread does not show for me at all. Testing.