Guild Wars 2

EdwinLi.1284:

Honestly, I believe as of currently the Anet team does not quite know how to develop Engineer into something that provide decent amount of utility due to its “Jack of All Trade but Master of None” nature from its Core Profession

^^ And this is the problem. We were sold as a jack of all trades class. But with every update it seems the focused classes have been given more hats to wear while still remaining focused and best at something.

Meanwhile it’s going to be two expansions in and we’re still going to be worst at everything. You don’t have to be a programmer or a mathematician or a genius of any stripe to see the disparity there- and why it’s no fun to play.

Nobody wants to be an underdog all the time. Contrary to popular belief it doesn’t make victory any sweeter. All it means is you had to wear your try-hard pants and the other guy had to try to lose against you.

Anet’s handling of engineer hasn’t just been neglectful, it’s been aggressively stupid. Less incompetent and more mean-spirited than anything. Most of the time we don’t even know who’s in charge of our development. We’re probably just cobbled together at the last minute from remainders.

It’s why whenever you keep bringing up the word, ‘paranoia’ what keeps running through my mind regarding engineers is the line from ‘Catch 22’, ‘just because you’re paranoid doesn’t mean they aren’t after you.’

Cold Hearted Person.6154:

Everything is a subject to change.

This is kind of an empty statement. Obviously everything is “subject to change,” as this is a game with balance patches and skill revisions. We obviously saw many of our utility skills buffed and nerfed over the years—and some of them completely redesigned, like the Med Kit and Mortar.

That doesn’t make our concerns regarding the Holosmith’s COMPLETE lack of utility any less legitimate, especially when many of the revisions made to utility skills over the years have been less than favorably received with a mixture of both good and bad (e.g., Elixir B vs. Elixir R).

While the engineer has seen a number of changes over the years, I don’t expect them to really do all that much for the Holosmith over the course of the next six weeks, and—full disclosure—I don’t even know if I have the confidence in them to get it right when they laid such a poor foundation out of the gate.

TeaPotty.5941:

EdwinLi.1284:

TeaPotty.5941:

This is easily the weakest of all new elite specs. Subpar damage, and yet for some reason you must damage to attain this. If you think otherwise, you havent looked at the new Ele/Necro/Mesmer/Ranger/Thief/Guardian/Warrior specs, which all easily have better DPS and utility. On top of this self-dmg insult, you also lose your F5 skill, and not the weapon-swap button. Bc reasons and excuses.

I’m not gonna waste my time anymore on what is my favorite class in terms of mechanics. Engineer is always a string of disappointments. They get little resources for proper development by Anet devs since launch. Nerfs and new ideas are always hastily implemented, with little concern for overall class feel and performance relative to other classes. Posts on this forum with suggestions are always ignored.

The past day saw TWO front-page threads on GW2’s subreddit with Holosmith being laughed at by everyone: Fidget-smith, and Jihad-smith. Well done, Anet.

Reddit is a has toxic community to begin with. Only select few people actually got the chance to test out the new Elite spec for a very limited time while everyone else is screaming wolf over speculations rather than having actully tested the Elite Spec and gotten the actual data.

1) No, people like you are toxic – dismissing other ppl’s concerns like they have no valid points to make, just because you can’t accept criticism of products you enjoy. You are also being rude to my comments, as if I dont have a mind of my own to form my own thoughts. Stop pretending you are above others because you feel differently, yet have no counter-argument.

2) We have the numbers from the actual skills, we can do math. I have spent nearly 5 years theorycrafting builds in GW2, and the numbers dont add up to anything significant for Holosmith. Dont tell me that feelings are more relevant than math and numbers.
Additionally, we’ve seen people play the class on stream. Its trash, unless your mostly concerned about style and concept.

EdwinLi.1284:

This entire paranoia going around is just unhealth for the community over pure specualtions and it not turning out as they wanted it to be is just causing unneeded anger issues.

Nonsense. Again, every other class revealed has more to offer in damage or utility.

EdwinLi.1284:

There is also talk on Reddit that Holosmith tree may replace tool tree or make a perm place in the meta by taking a place of one of the current Meta trees.

The new spec may do more damage than old Engi builds, but it still doesnt compete with other classes old or new builds. This is the overwhelming opinion of most veteran Engies I’ve seen on Reddit, this official forum, or in-game. Anything Engi can do, other classes can do better, while being more useful to their group. That is a fact.

without a spreadsheet or a screenshot of your dps meter or you know literally anything besides streamers who are just this games mini pop stars peakittening all of the tooltips as quick as they can without also mousing over their gear and then running around in open world pushing all the buttons to have some fun… your comments are kitten.

you dont know aftercasts. you dont know scaling coefficients. you dont even know if all bog otter did was throw on a zerk amulet in pvp. please tell me im wrong and someone had something better to offer and that you arent just calling it trash without providing something substantial to back it up. because that would be uncalled for and far outside of the hard math data stance you embrace. (i dont watch streams any more. im not aware of that community. i havent seen anything on reddit to back up your claims, but i dont spend a whole lot of time reading every comment there.)

and man, reddit is no more toxic than this forum. this forum is just more authoritarian and gets rid of kitten that is over the lines of “decency” and “normalcy” that they dictate.

Too soon for me to say about Holosmith -BUT it doesn’t seem to “fit” a Charr Engineer as much as Asura…that’s what struck me, anyone else?

meh why confine yourself to the default aesthetic tropes this game provides
do what you want

Yeah.

Thematically this was one of the most interesting new elite specs when revealed. But looking at the details…

It’s still a technological profession / spec which isn’t steampunk. That’s something.

Caeledh.5437:

Yeah.

Thematically this was one of the most interesting new elite specs when revealed. But looking at the details…

It’s still a technological profession / spec which isn’t steampunk. That’s something.

Steampunk maybe for when Engineer get a Human race themed Elite Spec.

As lore stated, Engineer theme on their technology design advanced differently for each Race.

Charr is more war machine theme with Scrapper focus on the turning Junk into something useful and Asura had the more advance technology theme with Holosmith tapping into the Asuran Holographic technology.

Rezzet.3614:

i love the holosmith so far , its a jack of all trades as an engineer should be it has both melee and long ranged attacks as well as some condi if you manage the heat system and trais properly , theres a no heat risk trait for low skill build and a high heat trait wich unlocks more effects on heat build up for skilled players

so yeah it is gonna be a spec with high skill ceiling but good pay off for once

What long range attacks?

There is one Elite with 1200range on a 60sec cooldown. That is it, that is all the long range there is. Literally every other skill is 600range or less. Holosmith is a close-range/melee fighter, just like every other Engineer spec.

Terrahero.9358:

Rezzet.3614:

i love the holosmith so far , its a jack of all trades as an engineer should be it has both melee and long ranged attacks as well as some condi if you manage the heat system and trais properly , theres a no heat risk trait for low skill build and a high heat trait wich unlocks more effects on heat build up for skilled players

so yeah it is gonna be a spec with high skill ceiling but good pay off for once

What long range attacks?

There is one Elite with 1200range on a 60sec cooldown. That is it, that is all the long range there is. Literally every other skill is 600range or less. Holosmith is a close-range/melee fighter, just like every other Engineer spec.

yeah but the elite is better than the whole deadeye spec so

insanemaniac.2456:

and man, reddit is no more toxic than this forum. this forum is just more authoritarian and gets rid of kitten that is over the lines of “decency” and “normalcy” that they dictate.

I agree that we should not get ahead of ourselves and assume things we don’t entirely know. It’s very well possible that Holosmith will be the #1 DPS specialization in Path of Fire. There’s no real way of knowing right now. I do, however, think you’re underestimating the severity of a lot of their (and my) complaints.

Whether we like it or not, Guild Wars 2 is an MMORPG where its meta is defined entirely by DPS. Sure, there are damage-oriented support specializations in nearly every game: Discipline Priest literally deals damage to heal in the Legion expansion of World of Warcraft; and every White Mage in FFXIV is expected to make use of every global cooldown, spamming Stone IV and maintaining Aero so long as no one dies in the process.

The “holy trinity” concept of MMOs is long dead, and Guild Wars 2 pretty much led the charge in that transition when it launched back in 2012. I can’t think of a single modern MMO that has “healbots” or “meatshields,” reduced to a singular role and never stepping outside of it. But unlike other modern MMOs like World of Warcraft or Final Fantasy XIV, Guild Wars 2 is literally defined entirely by the raid’s cumulative DPS. There are no aggro mechanics to handle, and healers have next to zero resource management. If we’re being honest, the PvE content in this game is still a completely joke compared to Mythic+ runs in WoW or Savage runs in FFXIV … so it’s not all that surprising that raid DPS—the easiest role of the “trinity”—is the only thing that really matters in Guild Wars 2. And as a result, every class is hand-chosen to be a member of the “meta” in PvE based not on their personal DPS contributions (which for Holosmith, as you said, is still in the air) but entirely their raid contributions through boons, alacrity, vulnerability, and class-specific buffs.

There’s a reason why warrior overtook elementalist for might stacking. It’s not that scepter/dagger or lightning hammer+staff are any less legitimate. After all, an elementalist, when traited, for it is just as effective at it (if anything, the rotation has only gotten easier over the years); instead, it’s the mere fact that a phalanx strength warrior and a staff elementalist together elevate team-wide DPS higher than a DPS warrior and a scepter/dagger elementalist does. It’s not that a berserker does bad DPS or that a tempest does poor support (if anything it’s quite the opposite) but rather that, as a sum of their parts, a warrior playing a supportive role with their banners and an elementalist playing an offensive role more consistently produces raid clears with a lower time-to-kill.

Even the healers are evaluated entirely by how much they can elevate raid DPS, which is why druids and their Grace of the Land stacks have such an overwhelming presence in nearly every raid group. And the simple fact of the matter is, if Holosmith contributes literally nothing to a raid group, it’ll likely be passed over for other class specializations in raids, fractals, World vs. World, and even structured PvP.

This just isn’t a game where personal DPS really matters, and acknowledging this doesn’t make me “toxic,” “paranoid,” or “authoritarian.”

Phineas Poe.3018:

This just isn’t a game where personal DPS really matters, and acknowledging this doesn’t make me “toxic,” “paranoid,” or “authoritarian.”

You’re right, it doesn’t make you any of those things – but it highlights the significant and glaring problem that the game’s mechanics and systems themselves are.

Scrapper is not a “DPS Spec”. The complaint should not be about holosmith doing damage. If anything engineer needs a viable damage spec.

I’m tired of the hybrid failures of the Engineer. Turrets never needed a nerf, but that’s not how balance team saw it. So for the engineer the class lacks a decent ranged combat and the rifle is by far the worst weapon in the game. The Holosmith is just a weapon swapping engi that does a lot of burst, but if the risk mechanic isn’t tuned well or too overbearing it will strip the engi of sustained damage. In short fights it’ll be amazing, but in long drawn out fights it’ll fall behind meaning raids won’t want them.

Some months ago I was reading a thread about new specs including new kits to play with and it seemed it was a very supported idea. My impression when I read it was “engineers do love their kits”. In fact, it came as a response against almost-kitless Scrapper. There’s such a love for kits that I don’t think they’ll ever overnerf them, causing that any dps-related utility skill to be discarded in terms of meta.

Photon Forge seems to work like a new kit. And traits support both power and condi options. So I kinda don’t understand so many complaints. Engineers didn’t seem to want a different gameplay when I read that thread, some just wanted more kits. But this spec does include some gameplay, coupled with a new kit.

It’s seems that the meta gameplay won’t change much. Just replacing Tools to Holosmith and making use of the new kit. But engineers still have Pinpoint Distribution, a very powerful buff to condi dps.

It’s not what I was asking for in relation to Holosmith (I wanted a support spec, the point where kits fail since I don’t like them very much), but since they could give barrier to Scrappers this Tuesday I remain hopeful.

EdwinLi.1284:

Steampunk maybe for when Engineer get a Human race themed Elite Spec.

IMO the base profession is fairly steampunk. As is scrapper.

Holosmith’s departure from that offers at least a little bit of variety. Though I’m not a huge fan of its visuals either. I’d have preferred something more Asura like, rather than super adventure box.

Caeledh.5437:

EdwinLi.1284:

Steampunk maybe for when Engineer get a Human race themed Elite Spec.

IMO the base profession is fairly steampunk. As is scrapper.

Holosmith’s departure from that offers at least a little bit of variety. Though I’m not a huge fan of its visuals either. I’d have preferred something more Asura like, rather than super adventure box.

Holosmith is more Asuran than people believe considering it originates from Asura race.

Going around Rata Sum you can see a lot of Holographic technology but a lot of people seem to ignore this part of Asura Technology and focus a bit too much on their Golem technology instead.

Asura tech had a lot of Holo Tech usually started as Holographic Golems, holographic computers, and other types of holographic projections.

In Battle on the Breachmaker we see the Holographic Asuran technology utilized by Scarlet. The Elite Skill for Holosmith is even Scarlet’s Holo Gun Laser attack. Think about it the entire time we fight Scarlet on the Breachmaker she was in her Holo Form the entire fight so guess we can say Scarlet was the first encounter with a Holosmith.

Super Adventure Box is asuran too. After all, Moto is asura in every aspect.
But IMO is true that the visuals of the spec seems closer to Moto than Ellie’s or Scarlet’s holograms, which I would have preferred.

Weylin.6478:

I would have rather had a specialization that focuses on vehicles and manned guns.

You all know just how kitten a big stompy steampunk battle mech would be. Could have various channeled area or column AoE attacks, and a blinding rocket engine leap that causes knock down after landing

Actually that would be an awesome idea and would fit better with the “Engineer” theme vs the way it’s sort of playing out. I didn’t mind that I didn’t get to weapon swap like other classes because I got to summon them from my kit but I am not really liking the the Holosmith idea and I really do think that the Engineer could use a rework on the base kit and then a build up from there as many others have said. When you compare the Engi to other classes it really is lackluster. I still love playing it but I admit I’ve been playing my necro and ele more because they just do everything a little better.. I loved the idea of the Engineer but I can’t ignore the really obvious problems with the class.

As for the theme, I’m not really liking the SAB theme they have going on. I’m not against the idea of switching things up but arcade style? It’s not something I’m likely to ever play.

Add in the constant burn damage? I was used to it with Necro on certain builds but those builds came with some really good damage… I’ll withhold judgement on it till I’ve tried it (though like I said with the SAB graphics I’m not sure I want to try it) but if the numbers are correct, the damage is way lower than what any other class gets without the “self-harm” and compared to necro’s when they go that route it’s still pretty low.

Egrimm Van Horstmann.7921:

I’m tired of the hybrid failures of the Engineer. Turrets never needed a nerf, but that’s not how balance team saw it. So for the engineer the class lacks a decent ranged combat and the rifle is by far the worst weapon in the game. The Holosmith is just a weapon swapping engi that does a lot of burst, but if the risk mechanic isn’t tuned well or too overbearing it will strip the engi of sustained damage. In short fights it’ll be amazing, but in long drawn out fights it’ll fall behind meaning raids won’t want them.

MH Pistol is much worse than Rifle.

Also, turrets needed a nerf. Sure you can argue it may have been too harsh, but it needed to happen.

lorddarkflare.9186:

MH Pistol is much worse than Rifle.

Also, turrets needed a nerf. Sure you can argue it may have been too harsh, but it needed to happen.

Must have missed the joke on this one. My apologies. Explain?

I’m really excited for the hobosmith. FINALLY a great DPS spec for engi, and the theme looks pretty cool as well. Plus the risk from the heat mechanic will keep it from getting boring. (bomb kit, I’m looking at you)

Midontto.5847:

lorddarkflare.9186:

MH Pistol is much worse than Rifle.

Also, turrets needed a nerf. Sure you can argue it may have been too harsh, but it needed to happen.

Must have missed the joke on this one. My apologies. Explain?

I agree with him and think that if he’s joking in that statement then something would be wrong. why do you think he’s joking?

insanemaniac.2456:

Midontto.5847:

lorddarkflare.9186:

MH Pistol is much worse than Rifle.

Also, turrets needed a nerf. Sure you can argue it may have been too harsh, but it needed to happen.

Must have missed the joke on this one. My apologies. Explain?

I agree with him and think that if he’s joking in that statement then something would be wrong. why do you think he’s joking?

And why do you agree?

Why is Rifle doing so much better than MH Pistol?

Tell me when Rifle/Rocket/Net/Flame/Thumper turrets were viable in the past few days. Perhaps weeks? Months? Years?

I’m not the person throwing out the bold statement here, but if you agree with him then enlighten us will ya?

mh pistol has 1 must use skill and 1 single target filler skill and the auto should basically never be used. the condis that are worth using arent condis that engi even has traits for. nearly all of condi engis weapon set damage is in pistol 4, which isnt mh pistol. thats not great at all. the reason its meta is because its the only option, not because its actually good. if sword were distinctly condi instead of hybrid, every condi engi looking for dps (which is what you go condi engi for, not control, support, tanking, healing, etc) that unlocks holosmith would use sword. since sword is a hybrid weapon, people will be divided on it, but from how it looks right now imo its really not a worse option than pistol dps wise and it brings extra mobility.

rifle has no useless skills. despite 2 and 4 being bad damage and 3 and 5 taking up so little of your time, there isnt a skill on rifle that you can say just plain hurts you to use like pistol 1. not that rifle is in a good spot compared to hammer when it comes to how well the weapon fills your time and multitasks, but it certainly is better off.

i dont know if you were around for turret engis in pvp. it literally erased skill at all tiers of gameplay. that is why turrets are kittenty today, and deservedly so, but a case can easily be made for skill splits. perhaps there are old youtube vids you can look up.

now why do you think hes joking?

insanemaniac.2456:

“mh pistol has 1 must use skill and 1 single target filler skill and the auto should basically never be used. the condis that are worth using arent condis that engi even has traits for. "

I don’t agree with this for spvp or wvw . With a sigil of agony/earth ( if i don’t miss the sigil name) you can easily arrive to 10 stack of bleeding or more. I find it quite strong especially when you don’t want to go melee. All other pistol skills are “melee” ( much better in melee ) so i find autoattack really good to proc damage from far. I use it often to try to proc my opponent to clear and then i go melee . I find pistol AA good and i find wrong to say not to use it. It has been buffed a lot .

eg auto does the same thing but also has weakness, providing 2 cover condis for your burns.

insanemaniac.2456:

eg auto does the same thing but also has weakness, providing 2 cover condis for your burns.

I know now i am in love of new rocket boots and when condi i use pistols, traited toolkit and elixir S .. i don’t take always EG so when i don’t have EG i rely on pistol AA and i don’t find it that bad. I know it is a problem of mine but i have problems playing condi without toolkit … the block for me is too important to let toolkit out … and i am in love with the idea of engineer which kills you not with a sword but with a big wrench on your head. .. the power or workers EG attacks are less often , 3/4 secs instead of 1/2 so you also stack less bleeding ( i really love eg too , especially eg 4 … )

i usually like to go ft/eg/rocket boots when i play condi in wvw. its hard to give up S, but i make up for it with sneak gyro and use traveler runes so i dont have to take tools/inventions. its not great but holosmith might be able to cover better than scrapper along with a few other build changes. i havent tried it yet on this patch though.

there is a stark difference when you walk up to a mesmer using the mantra heal and you use eg1 vs pistol 1. and thats a pretty specific fight but its the most drastic one i can think of where the difference is literally “they wither” vs “you cant touch them”. seriously, those fights are always over in about 10 secs and who wins depends on if you use eg1 or not.

Phineas Poe.3018:

Everyone thought scrapper was going to be trash too, and it ended up being one of the most broken elite specs.

True, it’s so broken no one even uses it (in PvE).

insanemaniac.2456:

mh pistol has 1 must use skill and 1 single target filler skill and the auto should basically never be used. the condis that are worth using arent condis that engi even has traits for. nearly all of condi engis weapon set damage is in pistol 4, which isnt mh pistol. thats not great at all. the reason its meta is because its the only option, not because its actually good. if sword were distinctly condi instead of hybrid, every condi engi looking for dps (which is what you go condi engi for, not control, support, tanking, healing, etc) that unlocks holosmith would use sword. since sword is a hybrid weapon, people will be divided on it, but from how it looks right now imo its really not a worse option than pistol dps wise and it brings extra mobility.

rifle has no useless skills. despite 2 and 4 being bad damage and 3 and 5 taking up so little of your time, there isnt a skill on rifle that you can say just plain hurts you to use like pistol 1. not that rifle is in a good spot compared to hammer when it comes to how well the weapon fills your time and multitasks, but it certainly is better off.

i dont know if you were around for turret engis in pvp. it literally erased skill at all tiers of gameplay. that is why turrets are kittenty today, and deservedly so, but a case can easily be made for skill splits. perhaps there are old youtube vids you can look up.

now why do you think hes joking?

Unfortunately, that’s all in the past now. Sure, Rifle and Turrets were good several years ago, but that’s not gonna change that they’ve been at a weak state. So knocking on how they’re nerf is needed at this moment is unwarranted.

And yes, I’d believe he was serious if he made that statement before HoT. Now it’s just beating on a dead horse.

no, his statement is relevant now.

Midontto.5847:

insanemaniac.2456:

mh pistol has 1 must use skill and 1 single target filler skill and the auto should basically never be used. the condis that are worth using arent condis that engi even has traits for. nearly all of condi engis weapon set damage is in pistol 4, which isnt mh pistol. thats not great at all. the reason its meta is because its the only option, not because its actually good. if sword were distinctly condi instead of hybrid, every condi engi looking for dps (which is what you go condi engi for, not control, support, tanking, healing, etc) that unlocks holosmith would use sword. since sword is a hybrid weapon, people will be divided on it, but from how it looks right now imo its really not a worse option than pistol dps wise and it brings extra mobility.

rifle has no useless skills. despite 2 and 4 being bad damage and 3 and 5 taking up so little of your time, there isnt a skill on rifle that you can say just plain hurts you to use like pistol 1. not that rifle is in a good spot compared to hammer when it comes to how well the weapon fills your time and multitasks, but it certainly is better off.

i dont know if you were around for turret engis in pvp. it literally erased skill at all tiers of gameplay. that is why turrets are kittenty today, and deservedly so, but a case can easily be made for skill splits. perhaps there are old youtube vids you can look up.

now why do you think hes joking?

Unfortunately, that’s all in the past now. Sure, Rifle and Turrets were good several years ago, but that’s not gonna change that they’ve been at a weak state. So knocking on how they’re nerf is needed at this moment is unwarranted.

And yes, I’d believe he was serious if he made that statement before HoT. Now it’s just beating on a dead horse.

I am definitely serious.

MH Pistol and Rifle are both ‘bad’.

With Shield being bad because it HAS to associate with MH Pistol—for now.

The only reason MH Pistol gets more play is because it is the ONLY condi option whereas power has the ridiculously good hammer.

Technically speaking, Rifle is worse off because in any build you would use it, you should use hammer instead, but on a pure ‘what value does this weapon bring to my build’ basis, MH Pistol is much, much worse.

I guarantee you that the minute Engie gets another MH condi option, MH Pistol is going into the trash. Hell, the hybrid sword my actually manage to do it.

lorddarkflare.9186:

I am definitely serious.

MH Pistol and Rifle are both ‘bad’.

With Shield being bad because it HAS to associate with MH Pistol—for now.

The only reason MH Pistol gets more play is because it is the ONLY condi option whereas power has the ridiculously good hammer.

Technically speaking, Rifle is worse off because in any build you would use it, you should use hammer instead, but on a pure ‘what value does this weapon bring to my build’ basis, MH Pistol is much, much worse.

I guarantee you that the minute Engie gets another MH condi option, MH Pistol is going into the trash. Hell, the hybrid sword my actually manage to do it.

Definitely a lot more understandable now. Yeah it stinks to have such limited weapon options to begin with to compensate for kits. Even the new elite spec upcoming is a bit of a stretch for condi. With sword, High Calibur and No Scope could work pretty well with it and also with the overheat bonuses you might be able to pull off with a minimum amount of precision to still easily proc off Bleed and Burn if you pick up Incendiary Powder.

Rifle did get a low key buff with Lock On trait + Overcharged Shot, definitely nothing huge, but still alright. MH Pistol might still be the only condi option for another long while unless it gets reworked. It’s funny as well since MH Pistol has only received buffs since release.