Guild Wars 2

I play an Engineer, just because its a lot of fun for me to play. I really like the variety of playstyles that you can do with a engineer. And i just like the playstyle overall.
But now that im playing more dungeons i see that al lot of players hates me for playing an Engineer, they even trowning me out of their team when i join as my Engineer.
Now i have noticed that no matter what build i use, my dmg isnt all that great. Is it really so that Engineers suck in dmg? Do ppl hate them because of that?

vanRaamsdonk.8042:

I play an Engineer, just because its a lot of fun for me to play. I really like the variety of playstyles that you can do with a engineer. And i just like the playstyle overall.
But now that im playing more dungeons i see that al lot of players hates me for playing an Engineer, they even trowning me out of their team when i join as my Engineer.
Now i have noticed that no matter what build i use, my dmg isnt all that great. Is it really so that Engineers suck in dmg? Do ppl hate them because of that?

I don’t play an Engineer, but I figure its possibly because nobody knows what an Engineer can do for them. I sure don’t know . . .

If your damage sucks, check your gear out. If it’s too far below your level, it’s not helping you as much as you think it is. (I’d say more than ten levels below you, you should consider a replacement from an armorsmith or Karma vendor.) Your weapons might be the real issue – again, if they’re too far below your level then they won’t be as effective.

As for your damage, if your class . . . again, I don’t really know . . . does mostly conditions then you want to invest in Condition Damage and Power. If you’re not doing conditions, then let Condition Damage slide. Check out your traits, you might not be getting the best use out of them.

Oh, and if you’re not doing a lot of damage and you’re not taking a lot of damage? That means you’re built a bit on the “tanky” side. Not a problem, as you can adjust for it.

The problem with engineer is the best builds revolve around Crit and Grenades.

Against a tanky player which is very common in Wvw the engineer will struggle due to high armour.

They recently nerfed engineer upgrade damage by a large amount due to adding sigils, which doesnt really buff an grenade engineer up much, the problem seems to be your weapon doesnt effect how powerful your kits are they seem to be fixed at damage levels.

Removing a level 80 rifle seemed to make me lose 40 or so damage, which is nothing comparing unarmed to a exotic rifle.

I’m just lvling my last lvl 80 then i have all 8 lvl 80,and it happens to be an eng.
i’m almost lvl 80 and tbh the dmg just suxs.

Even though i have the same lvl gold weapon,i still cannot do as much dmg as my other 7 chars when they was at that lvl.
The eng def needs some sort of buff imo.

Ye alltough it is very fun to play, it seems that Engineers need a little more steam, Anet really needs to fix this Assap.

They’re a fun class, but in an environment where tip top roles are needed, being a jack of all trades isn’t that workable.

Engineers start off as a more difficult, less straight-forward class with some awkward mechanics, reducing the number of players that try them. Then they get hit with severe nerfs, further reducing their population. This means fewer people understand what they can really do and just go by the rumors and by the complaints (which are not all unjustified). It is essentially an unfinished class still very much in development, making it hard for players to get comfortable with them. No finished class should ever see a 30% hit to an ability; that’s just wrong for something post-beta.

I think one of the problems is that the engineer is being marketed as the epitome of versatility, which sounds cool in theory, but is not all that great in practice. They do get kits instead of multiple weapons, but they have to trait for their kits to be effective just like anyone else.
For example, the grenade kit is one of the best kits available if traited for, which is fine by itself, but it is practically worthless untraited. So while I do have the option to use it in every build, I practically won’t ever do so because I won’t have the traits to make it worthwhile.

Phoenix.3416:

They recently nerfed engineer upgrade damage by a large amount due to adding sigils, which doesnt really buff an grenade engineer up much,

That was in the December 14 update. From the patch notes: “Grenade” skill now does 30% less damage to balance against using sigils. Note that this is only the #1 skill of the grenade kit, while flash/poison grenades had damage increased. In turn, sigils of force/strength/accuracy etc. now work with kits, and PVP damage on the grenade kit is no longer lower than PVE damage.

I wouldn’t call this a “large amount”, and the situation improved last month…

the problem seems to be your weapon doesnt effect how powerful your kits are they seem to be fixed at damage levels.

Removing a level 80 rifle seemed to make me lose 40 or so damage, which is nothing comparing unarmed to a exotic rifle.

From the January 28 patch notes:

Weapons now continue to grant bonus stats while bundles are equipped.

Bundles from player skills (engineer kits, elementalist conjured weapons, warrior banners) now have base damage that is consistent with the highest rarity weapons available at the level of the player. Quick testing seemed to indicate that the base damage is taken from the corresponding one handed weapon.

IOW your level 80 kit has the same base damage as an exotic level 80 pistol no matter what weapon you have equipped. Additionally, bonus stats on your weapon such as power now apply to you, further improving kit damage.

This also explains the small difference when you unequip your rifle. Your rifle probably has power on it, and you lose that stat bonus when you unequip the rifle. On the other hand, the base damage of the kit is independent of your rifle’s weapon strength and is now always based on a level 80 exotic.

damny.9342:

Phoenix.3416:

They recently nerfed engineer upgrade damage by a large amount due to adding sigils, which doesnt really buff an grenade engineer up much,

That was in the December 14 update. From the patch notes: “Grenade” skill now does 30% less damage to balance against using sigils. Note that this is only the #1 skill of the grenade kit, while flash/poison grenades had damage increased. In turn, sigils of force/strength/accuracy etc. now work with kits, and PVP damage on the grenade kit is no longer lower than PVE damage.

I wouldn’t call this a “large amount”, and the situation improved last month…

the problem seems to be your weapon doesnt effect how powerful your kits are they seem to be fixed at damage levels.

Removing a level 80 rifle seemed to make me lose 40 or so damage, which is nothing comparing unarmed to a exotic rifle.

From the January 28 patch notes:

Weapons now continue to grant bonus stats while bundles are equipped.

Bundles from player skills (engineer kits, elementalist conjured weapons, warrior banners) now have base damage that is consistent with the highest rarity weapons available at the level of the player. Quick testing seemed to indicate that the base damage is taken from the corresponding one handed weapon.

IOW your level 80 kit has the same base damage as an exotic level 80 pistol no matter what weapon you have equipped. Additionally, bonus stats on your weapon such as power now apply to you, further improving kit damage.

This also explains the small difference when you unequip your rifle. Your rifle probably has power on it, and you lose that stat bonus when you unequip the rifle. On the other hand, the base damage of the kit is independent of your rifle’s weapon strength and is now always based on a level 80 exotic.

You don’t consider a 30% damage reduction on the main attack skill much of a reduction? that’s insane.

I use a rifle not a one handed weapon, I should have the damage of a rifle not a pistol. Pistols allow 2 sigils to be used, rifle one, so the rifle should have a higher base damage because of this when using a kit.

This is obviously all my personal opinion on engineers..

My main is an engineer, compared to other classes I find the engineer much harder to play to get the same damage output of other classes such as a DPS warrior. We can go up to 1500 range with our grenades skill or melee with tools so we aren’t really stuck in one range area but because of this we don’t really excel in a area.

We are sort of a jack of all trades class that doesn’t beat any of the other classes in 1 key area, sure we have our kits but at the cost of a utility skill you can only carry 1 or 2 kits without messing up your damage output.

I NEVER see turrets used in pvp, wvw or pve by any high level, they just dont do the damage needed to be useful, the only reason I use supply drop as my elite is because of the healing. Turrets need a buff to be stronger than a necros minions as they cant move to attack and are fixed.

Mortar is useless and has less range and damage than my grenades, as an elite this is embarrassing. my mortar should have 2000 range at least or a ranger can kill it easily with a base attack.

The rifle is an odd mix of a rifle and a shotgun, really it should have been made into a more sniper rifle like weapon like the warrior has now. the 3 and 4 skills require the engineer to be so dam close to be useful its practically a melee weapon at that point which for a class that needs high cond or Crit to do any real damage is insane.

Buffs. we have elixirs and we can toss them, often for random effects but most arent AOE buffs which other classes have and can give to allies making us something of a greedy class since we can only really self buff.

Flamer is pretty useless compared to grenades since its pretty much a melee range weapon and its damage isn’t high enough for the engineer to want to risk coming to close to an enemy group.

I use the bomb kit, but only for the big ol bomb toolbar skill, the rest are pretty weak since they are easy to dodge and require you to be next to the enemy.

Elixir gun I never see used, its a odd mix of random attacks that I just don’t feel go together that well, its like a weaker flamer with 1 or 2 useful skills.

Elixirs are great but a good elixir build needs 1 or 2 of them which means less kits. Turrets also mean less kits and skills which messes up how easy it is to play an engineer, any change you make messes you up in another area. Want another kit? you can only use them 1 at a time, one another elixir? well you have to give up one of your kits.
Other classes get 2 default weapon slots while we basically get 1 and kits. it would have been better to have a kit slot in the other weapon slot so we still get to keep the same skills everyone else does and have 2 weapons to play with.

Phoenix.3416:

You don’t consider a 30% damage reduction on the main attack skill much of a reduction? that’s insane.

We lost 30% damage on grenade kit #1.

We gained some damage on other grenade kit skills.

We gained overall damage with kits from sigils, with two pistols we can get up to 11% more damage from sigils.

With the January update we also gained overall damage from stats on our weapons, which means we can have 180 power more with a kit equipped. This is around 10% of your total power if you have power on all/most of your gear.

So compared to before December 14, we have a slight loss in damage for a skill that was really strong before, while everything else got boosted.

Yesterday, I was doing fotm 21 and this warror kept talking crap about how hes carrying us and engies and thiefs can do no damage at all and how is hundred blades was way better.
So yeah I’ll say its because we are perceived as doing low damage (Which when compared to other classes can be true). Considering how he had a league of legends name, and was a warrior, pretty much tells me he has that “damage is everything” mentality. We get a lot of flak from people who think like that.

There is some truth to it, but it’s wildly exaggerated by how much.

Most players have no idea what an engineer is doing while they are doing it, never mind preconceived notions that have been blown out of proportion.

I rather have a lot of crowd control, useful skills, versatility and fun than spamming 2 buttons that do a crapload of damage.

Personally I think that many people dont like the engineer because they barely know what the class is capable of.
Before I started engineer I played guardian and mesmer. The sole reason I started playing engineer was that I once had an engineer in my group (hotw all paths) who told me that his underwater damage is awesome. There I got his attention, because I always hated underwater combat with my mes and guard.
And heck, the class was hard to comprehend in the beginning…

And now? With the correct traits I outburst my shatter mesmer and… well not outtank but it´s close… my guard.
Well, either I suck at playing guard AND mesmer or I am good at playing engineer. On the other hand I really dont think that I am a good engineer player.

What I want to say is: engis are not all that bad as people think they are but they´re not fine, either, because of countless bugs and useless traits.
I will now proceed to level my 2nd engi up to lvl 80

Phoenix.3416:

The problem with engineer is the best builds revolve around Crit and Grenades.

The whole flipping game resolves around crits, because crits can nearly triple (250% at the high end) your damage output thanks to crit damage percentage increasing traits and gear.

This while vigor makes a dodge available every 5 seconds (10 seconds otherwise), meaning that you can run into a fight virtually naked as long as your crit chance is high enough so that you can close to guarantee a crit on that spike damage ability.

The game as it is currently “balanced” as a third person shooter masking as a RPG.

Simple Answer: Engineers are misunderstood…

The class itself has a higher learning curve, traits are not draw out for us as they as for guardians or warriors, its not 1 2 3, but if played correctly an engi actually has one of the strongest DPS in game.. 100Blades Berserker warriors ask me how i’m able to kill so fast lol

also people do not know what to expect, because of how the class is designed, there is a much much larger gap in between a good engi or a bad one

PS: for all engi out there, if you wanna make damage, STOP USING PISTOL (Unless you’re runnign a full tank build), they are not designed to be powerful, they scale horrible with both straight damage and condition damage, either build does 1/3 of the damage a rifle can, also with flame thrower kit, pistols are a balance weapons, not designed to be great, just meh…

XxTAFxX.6741:

I’m just lvling my last lvl 80 then i have all 8 lvl 80,and it happens to be an eng.
i’m almost lvl 80 and tbh the dmg just suxs.

Even though i have the same lvl gold weapon,i still cannot do as much dmg as my other 7 chars when they was at that lvl.
The eng def needs some sort of buff imo.

This.

I too have all professions, and my last level 80 was an Engineer. Now geared will full berserker exotic armor, it doesn’t even come close to the damage my other alts can do. Engineers need a serious buff, cause as of this moment it’s my least favorite class to play. Mainly because of the low damage output.

(My Engi is build around the Grenade Kit with the correct traits that make them do more damage, and am using Rifle as backup weapon).

If your play preference focuses on wanting to put out serious damage, don’t play an engineer. Simple. Engineer is built for crowd control and conditions. Engineer has to go through extreme contortions to focus on damage which means you lose out on the strengths: crowd control and conditions.

Phoenix.3416:

Pistols allow 2 sigils to be used, rifle one, so the rifle should have a higher base damage because of this when using a kit.

Supposedly those sigil effects are halved though when using a one-handed weapon so both weapons need two of the same sigil to equal a single sigil on a rifle. Caveat: it’s something I saw mentioned elsewhere and don’t know or have tested personally.

Chaba.5410:

Phoenix.3416:

Pistols allow 2 sigils to be used, rifle one, so the rifle should have a higher base damage because of this when using a kit.

Supposedly those sigil effects are halved though when using a one-handed weapon so both weapons need two of the same sigil to equal a single sigil on a rifle. Caveat: it’s something I saw mentioned elsewhere and don’t know or have tested personally.

I was told they are as full sigils like other classes have?

We should figure that out.

The sigils I’ve been using on my dual pistols have never been halved in anyway shape or form. I’ve used Earth, Geomancy, Battle, Corruption, and I’m sure many other kinds as well.

Damage is lower than other professions.

Identical traits in Engineer are inferior to other professions

Grenade Kit, which is our strongest weapon, is awkward to use

Turrets aren’t worth using much. When people think of Engineers in MMOs, they usually think of Turrets

Conditions from us are weaker. I.E. Necro scepter 1>Engineer Pistol 1

Not much “Engineer-y” looking armor

Our main form of defense, CC, is not an innate ability that is current in all Engineers. We must learn how to use our defenses properly.

Our coolest weapon, the Flamethrower, misses a lot and it’s damage is lower than other weapons

We only have three “real” weapon set options

Switching to our Kits looses our weapon skin. Legendary Engineers won’t see as much use from their legendary.

We don’t have any reliable forms of Stability

There ya go.

With regards to dungeons we kind of fulfill a non essential role, we provide CC in spades. Some people see this as a liability.

People see that we don’t provide as much damage as thiefs, nor do we provide as much utility+damage as mesmers and elementalists. We don’t bolster other classes’ attacks or defense like guardians nor can’t take as many as them like warriors can.

Over at the elementalist forums people complain that they can’t build full glass cannons like mesmers and still do dungeon runs. I built a support engi and wish I could provide as many boons and heals as an elementalist can. Over at the guardian forums they complain that they can’t have as much dps as a warrior, but my bomb engi wishes he had as much access to protection or any access to stability.

Maybe I’m bummed out because when I’ve done my best in dungeons, people still think they could have squeezed more out of the run if I had run one of my alts. As I play more of the other classes I start to realize it’s not that other classes are Op.

I’ll end this with a quote I found today

Raideen.5973:

Raideen.5973:

Clearly has not tried a long range spec with an engineer.

There is one long range spec with an engineer and it is terrible. You have to choose mostly terrible utilities for your toolbelt slots, and run a glassy build with none of the useful defense mechanics that GC (thieves|mesmers|rangers) can use.

So let’s just not talk about that build like it’s anything but the apoplectic thrashing of a foundering class design.

Burrid.4739:

I rather have a lot of crowd control, useful skills, versatility and fun than spamming 2 buttons that do a crapload of damage.

the king of versatility has both, elementalist. Wouldn’t you like to do the things other classes do without thinking about it as much or trying to work around endless bugs and poor class design? I would.

im not gonna say anything about engineers u all know it we also dont have ascended gear for us while other classes have several which one more time brings us to say stop killing our class a-net much preciated <and yea im gonna keep my post with spell problems as it is:)>

It isn’t that people hate our class. We suffer from too much versatility, and because of this we lack in dps, big time. It gets quite ridiculous when I have to play the kitten piano to pump out as much dps as a war or ranger who is rolling their face on their keyboard. Our glass cannon builds are also considered average dps for other classes. If you have rolled other a few characters, you’ll notice more than half of our traits and some skills come from other classes, so we are the sudo class; what makes this bad, is that our class FEELS like it was thrown together at the last minute. The only unique thing we have are elixirs, kits, and turrets, and turrets don’t work. And you can go even further arguing that most of our kit skills come from other professions. The best part is we lack dps because ANET sees our potential, believe it or not we have the potential to be one of the best dps classes; that is if you can type at 200 words a minute, on two separate computers, and eating a sandwich simultaneously. This class overall feels like you flipped the hard mode switch.

Sooo… So so so.
Over 200 hours logged on my 5 month old engineer, plus the nonstop bwe events where I basically just played a human engy. I know there are a lot of people with more time logged, but I still consider 200+ hours a good baseline for an understanding of a class.

I’ll start this by saying, I love my engineer. She’s the most adorable engineer of destruction ever. I’ve used a lot of builds (started turret in bwe’s and early levelling, switched to kits/elixir based builds at max), and I have never found anything that comes close to my warrior in terms of damage, cc, or support, when both are equally focused on that aspect. I’ll compare these two classes since I have the most experience with them…

Damage: The big numbers. Burst, sustained, or condition. Warrior trumps Hundred ‘nades with hundred blades in PvE, PvP is determined by the set up, but, as long as both hit completely, warrior still tends to win out in the end.
For sustained damage, engies can try FT or rifle builds, FT can keep 11-18 stacks of might up more or less constantly, while rifle builds can deal decent damage at a greater range (I’ve never tried direct damage pistol or bomb kit pvp, hence I won’t compare them). Warriors can use a variety of combos, including their own rifle, axe/mace, and I’m sure others I never tried to deal high sustained damage (axe/mace dps can surpass HB over longer periods of time). In most cases for either class, you need to be in close for sustained damage, meaning a good part of dps is surviving while putting out. Engies lose out here, their shorter lifespans putting them below warriors in sustained direct damage dps.
Good news though! Engies tend to beat warriors in condition builds, as warriors only have access to two real conditions (fire and bleeding), and engineers have access to just about all of them. Condition builds also tend to lean towards survivability for engineers, so there’s that too.

Support: Easy enough, we have elixirs, EG and our turrets! (Joking about the turrets) Warriors have shouts and banners, which either give boons, give stat buffs, remove conditions, or heal (when traited). Our elixirs can be thrown for a single random boon, while “For great Justice,” gives 3 stacks of might and fury, 2-3 more buffs (counting by stack) than our elixir B. Elixir R is our revival tool, and is about a third as effective as the warrior’s War Banner elite, as the war banner also grants several boons while instantly reviving downed allies. Elixir R and EG both remove conditions, which “Shake it off” does for warriors without need for targeting and can be used while feared, as it is a stun breaker. Engineers can come out ahead on condition removal with traits though, but the opportunity cost is rather high. Finally, warrior’s banners buff the party in a unique way, giving passive stat bonuses to whatever the group needs, most especially prec/ crit damage and healing/boon duration, meaning that a warrior running FGJ, Shake it, a banner, and war banner tends to add more to a group than an engineer running Elixir H/Heal Turret/Med kit (all viable group support abilities, with HT and Med Kit being most common in support), EG, Elixir B, Elixir R, and Supply crate. Situationally, such as encounters with high condition numbers, engineer will win out, but, in general dungeon runs, warrior will out perform him.

Crowd Control! One of my favorite things as an Asura. Engineers use gadgets, kits, toolbelt skills, and weapons to make pinatas out of enemies, while warriors use physical skills, weapon abilities, and burst abilities to punt skritt through field goals.
Warriors can have 3 from mace (burst, 3, 5), 3 from hammer (burst, 4, 5), 3 from skills, and an additional 3 from RAMPAGE! (Of those, 5 are AoE.) Engineers can have 0-2 from their weapon, depending on the mob’s range as some are immobilizes, up to 3 from utilities (FT kit, bomb kit, PBR, Slick Shoes, Mine, turrets, or tool kit), 1 from their heal if traited, up to 3 on their tool belt (if running full turret build), and 1-X from their elite. Now, engineers is not as straightforward with their max. If you run a turret build (Healing, thumper, rocket, net), you can have 7 knockdowns from turrets and turret abilities, 3 immobilizes (rifle, net turret TB, net turret), and either an additional knockdown or stun from the elite (possibly 3-5 on elixir X, but I can’t remember how many times tornado hits).
Now, while this build technically puts engineer in the lead for CC builds, it is rather… Useless. A warrior in PPT gear can use a CC build and still do passable damage, but with all traits and skills taken up by turrets, this build is rather unusable in most situations as of this post for engies (there may have been a guild that used this sort of engy in mass in wvw to good effect, but I can’t confirm it). Now, a slightly more believable build could be HT, bomb kit, toolkit, slick shoes, and supply crate, with the entire purpose of the build being bunker and knock people off points in spvp (slick shoes would most likely be replaced with elixir s in that situation). That puts us at 2 CCs from weapon (assuming pistol/shield), 1 from bomb kit, along with an immobilize, 1 from tool kit (I miss prybar being a knockback… Magnet pull for now), 1 from slick shoes, and 1 from elite, putting engies at 6 CCs and an immobilize, with one CC most likely being dropped for elixir s.
Final score for almost believable builds: Warrior up to 12, engineer up to 6 and a half, with 10-12 on a terrible turret build.

Now, back to the OP’s question. Why do people hate engineer? Because a warrior can beat us black in blue in almost every way. Still, I love the class, and, once I get done leveling alts, I’m going to find a way to make my engy a beast. Hopefully.

PS: Just because I can’t stand posting without correcting -someone-, technically Specterryu Quipter.8412 our kits aren’t unique, elementalists can have permanent conjured weapons with a bit of position and timing

PPS: I can be wrong. If I am, tell me in a polite, informed manner. I’ll do my best to back up my statements with KNOWLEDGE, but I can miss things, state incorrect things, and overall be completely wrong. However, don’t act hostile, we’re all engineers. We’re a more refined breed of psychopath.

Engineer being under estimate is a good thing.

How many time I see people (especially in WvW since people lack any kind of respect for engineer) invite me to party after I killed them to ask how did I do that with an engineer.

100 nade engi,
HGH cond engi,

Two extremely powerful build, in pvp, wvw and pve.

I run my 100 nade build in PvE in FotM, and I usually never die. With perma vigor, switching Elixir S for Elixir Gun, you should rarerly get hit, and have a lot of heal to back you up if it happens.

You can also stack 25 vuln on the enemy, helping the team, and doing really nice damage with your grenade.

tnarrant.9714:

Engineers start off as a more difficult, less straight-forward class with some awkward mechanics, reducing the number of players that try them. Then they get hit with severe nerfs, further reducing their population. This means fewer people understand what they can really do and just go by the rumors and by the complaints (which are not all unjustified). It is essentially an unfinished class still very much in development, making it hard for players to get comfortable with them. No finished class should ever see a 30% hit to an ability; that’s just wrong for something post-beta.

Maybe if a few decision makers at ANet got off their facerolling Warriors for a few hours and tried the other professions, they’d get a clue as to how much disparity exists between them. Instead, they continue to buff the over-powered and strip viability from weaker.

Chaba.5410:

If your play preference focuses on wanting to put out serious damage, don’t play an engineer. Simple. Engineer is built for crowd control and conditions. Engineer has to go through extreme contortions to focus on damage which means you lose out on the strengths: crowd control and conditions.

Unfortunately, few people see the need for our utility when they figure a stronger DPS profession would negate the need for screwing around with CC altogether. Sadly, they have a point.

The Engineer’s versatility is NOT rewarded in this game. What is rewarded is high damage numbers being generated in rapid, uninterrupted succession. Basically, ANet didn’t design this profession with the reality of their game in mind, they built it with an idealized notion of the game they hoped it would be. Turns out though, it really is just about the DPS.

But at least we can revive as effectively as everyone else. I guess that’s as egalitarian as it’s going to get for Engineers.

Blacklight.2871:

The Engineer’s versatility is NOT rewarded in this game.

So, so true. If I magnet someone into our group in WvWvW, shouldn’t I get a loot baggie too? No, it goes to everyone else around me who put out the damage yet they wouldn’t have had that opportunity if not for my magnet.

Blacklight.2871:

The Engineer’s versatility is NOT rewarded in this game. What is rewarded is high damage numbers being generated in rapid, uninterrupted succession. Basically, ANet didn’t design this profession with the reality of their game in mind, they built it with an idealized notion of the game they hoped it would be. Turns out though, it really is just about the DPS.

Best i can tell, the game is balanced around SPVP. The mobs in PVE are given large health pools and certain special abilities (unshakeable, defiant) to compensate for the dumb as a brick AI.

End result is that the game plays very differently in SPVP and PVE, because in SPVP a properly timed CC may well turn the tide of battle. In PVE however it just postpones the inevitable and you are better off just dodging and continue your DPS grind.

This game’s PvE is all about damage and survivability. You either bring it and keep yourself alive or you don’t and you get shunned. Making the argument of support as a supplication of DPS is a poor one that will never fly. Mesmers and Warriors can each bring amazing DPS as well as plenty of support. While that’s true, it will always become a question of why have one when you can have both?

Engineers categorically get hammered by the perception of their inability to bring hard DPS. This comes from both people (such as myself) who’ve played other classes and see the other classes are flat out better and others who come onto the forums complaining about how bad the class really is (topics such as these). There’s this self fulfilling prophecy that because players thing the class is bad people then complain the class is bad giving the perception the class is bad.

The reality is there is absolutely no way to measure DPS or damage in this game. A Grenadier Engineer could be every bit high DPS as 100B Warrior and no one would ever be able to tell the difference on a fight. People can vilify damage meters in other games, there are clear examples where they have merit in situations such as these which arm players with true knowledge and facts on performance. Without it, you’re left to popular opinion and that’s not something easily changed.

Kodiak.3281:

The reality is there is absolutely no way to measure DPS or damage in this game.

Couldn’t you just kill dummies, look at combat log for direct dmg – then avg bleed count + poison/burn uptime/total time, and just note the vulnerability stacks you give to take into account the total party dps increase

Attack dummies for a minute with each class in full dps gear (one with food one without, as food could be altered in future patches) to get overall dps rather than just burst.

Could then give you average DPS for each spec in ideal conditions

Kodiak.3281:

This game’s PvE is all about damage and survivability. You either bring it and keep yourself alive or you don’t and you get shunned. Making the argument of support as a supplication of DPS is a poor one that will never fly. Mesmers and Warriors can each bring amazing DPS as well as plenty of support. While that’s true, it will always become a question of why have one when you can have both?

Engineers categorically get hammered by the perception of their inability to bring hard DPS. This comes from both people (such as myself) who’ve played other classes and see the other classes are flat out better and others who come onto the forums complaining about how bad the class really is (topics such as these). There’s this self fulfilling prophecy that because players thing the class is bad people then complain the class is bad giving the perception the class is bad.

The reality is there is absolutely no way to measure DPS or damage in this game. A Grenadier Engineer could be every bit high DPS as 100B Warrior and no one would ever be able to tell the difference on a fight. People can vilify damage meters in other games, there are clear examples where they have merit in situations such as these which arm players with true knowledge and facts on performance. Without it, you’re left to popular opinion and that’s not something easily changed.

yea here is example 100b war 17k stack dmg easy<just for example chek Arah warior solo run> and engi with all nades and tool belt skill barely 8k any other questions and btw i play engi so yea i know

konli.6927:

Couldn’t you just kill dummies, look at combat log for direct dmg – then avg bleed count + poison/burn uptime/total time, and just note the vulnerability stacks you give to take into account the total party dps increase

Attack dummies for a minute with each class in full dps gear (one with food one without, as food could be altered in future patches) to get overall dps rather than just burst.

Could then give you average DPS for each spec in ideal conditions

This ignores a great deal of things and only provides numbers in the most ideal scenario.

For example you may have a dodge heavy fight that in order to live the Warrior must dance and back in and out of melee range periodically lowering his DPS while the Grenadier Engineer can just fling away. Conversely you may have another fight where the boss ends up kited and the Grenadier misses half his Grenades. Also due to the randomness of largely being proc’d based in our specs (15% chance for bleed, 33% chance for bleed, etc) you’d need to really hammer away at something for more than just a minute to get the full picture (5 minutes should be sufficient).

Unfortunately that’s pretty absurd to gather all that information by hand. More over, you’d then have to do it with other classes to provide a comparison. You can understand why then no one has been to keen on doing this!

vanRaamsdonk.8042:

I play an Engineer, just because its a lot of fun for me to play. I really like the variety of playstyles that you can do with a engineer. And i just like the playstyle overall.
But now that im playing more dungeons i see that al lot of players hates me for playing an Engineer, they even trowning me out of their team when i join as my Engineer.
Now i have noticed that no matter what build i use, my dmg isnt all that great. Is it really so that Engineers suck in dmg? Do ppl hate them because of that?

They are jealous because we are the coolest kid on the block.

Blacklight.2871:

tnarrant.9714:

Engineers start off as a more difficult, less straight-forward class with some awkward mechanics, reducing the number of players that try them. Then they get hit with severe nerfs, further reducing their population. This means fewer people understand what they can really do and just go by the rumors and by the complaints (which are not all unjustified). It is essentially an unfinished class still very much in development, making it hard for players to get comfortable with them. No finished class should ever see a 30% hit to an ability; that’s just wrong for something post-beta.

Maybe if a few decision makers at ANet got off their facerolling Warriors for a few hours and tried the other professions, they’d get a clue as to how much disparity exists between them. Instead, they continue to buff the over-powered and strip viability from weaker.

Been same in every MMO?Population size determines balance. In Other MMOs with sub IE WoW they saw ne class being played more they nerfed it because then add in buffs to weak class in Expansions(or add a new OP class) this allowed them to sell more.
Number crunches at Anet see out of 10000 players 1500 are warriors and 10 are engies why waste resources on Engies. Plan to see any new buffs to class only in a paid for expansion.

Blacklight.2871:

But at least we can revive as effectively as everyone else. I guess that’s as egalitarian as it’s going to get for Engineers.

Haha not true a warrior can heal better if they spend 15 points in tactics http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fast_Healer 10% revive speed.

People hate the Engineer because it’s not faceroll based. And because we don’t spin our greatswords for great justice.

Love my engineer but I do have a lot of class envy. Playing double pistols condition with elixirs and love it but feel so many other classes do equal or better damage and have better survivability. On the reverse if I go defensive I feel others are just as hard to kill and do better damage. After playing several classes though I still keep coming back to my engineer.

The engineer seems to be far more dependent upon utility skills than every other class. I think that pretty well sums up most engineer issues in a nutshell.

I think the core problem (for those that find the class problematic) was that they had to balance the class around potentially having kits in utility slots. Thus, I think kits should have been implemented differently, like maybe just only allow one, but have it take one of the function key (F1-F4) abilities, instead of the weird thing they have done where you need to take up a utility slot (or possibly the healing slot, if we want to be technical) to have the equivalent of weapon swapping. Obviously, other abilities would probably need to be balanced differently in that case.

Also tied to that point, if you don’t use a kit, you have a whopping three – yes, three – weapon combinations to choose from, and two of those have the same first three skills. As I said, the class is balanced too much around kits. I’d probably be fine with that, if they did not take up utility slots, and instead replaced the engineer’s non-existent weapon swap.

I would guess they probably experimented with various ways of doing it during development. Why the current implementation is what they settled on, I don’t know. It certainly seems far from ideal to me, though.

Creld.8702:

Damage: The big numbers. Burst, sustained, or condition. Warrior trumps Hundred ’nades with hundred blades in PvE, PvP is determined by the set up, but, as long as both hit completely, warrior still tends to win out in the end.
For sustained damage, engies can try FT or rifle builds

I read your ‘be polite’ part, so I will. This information is incorrect on a painful level (the flamethrower portion). With regards to PvE, grenades on engineer can have some very strong ranged sustain. When coupled alongside blunderbuss, jump shot, prybar, and acid bomb, the engineer’s proximity sustain becomes absurdly high. I encourage you to go try a 4 kit setup (medkit, grenade kit, elixir gun, tool kit) with berserker gear in a 30/10/0/0/30 setup. Your damage over time will be comparable to an equally kitted HB warrior – except you’ll also have heal fields, blinds, chill, poison, blocks, and condition removal. Warrior will have a banner and FGJ. Banners are great but you only need 1 warrior to bring all 3 useful ones.

i <3 my engineer class and i even got a commander for her above all my other classes, i beat a lot of people in 1vs1, usually thieves and warriors because i see them alone a lot, i had these moments in wvw where i would win 1 v2/3/or even 4 because of the engineer (all of them were lvl 80 and were not scaled to 80). Though us engineers are really bugged and need fixes but im pretty much happy already with the class

Kamahl.3621:

When coupled alongside blunderbuss, jump shot, prybar, and acid bomb, the engineer’s proximity sustain becomes absurdly high. I encourage you to go try a 4 kit setup (medkit, grenade kit, elixir gun, tool kit) with berserker gear in a 30/10/0/0/30 setup.

This in particular is something I see very few people down as a concept. PvE as an Engineer is basically entirley about swapping kits like a madman and using the right cooldowns minimizing the use of anything that lacks a cooldown.

Our condi variants of it would also be competitive too in Dungeon PvE, if the condition caps weren’t so unfavorable.

In fact, a lot of the perceived extreme Warrior damage is an exaggeration. They do have a lot of damage in Dungeon PvE, but it isn’t nearly as high as most people seem to believe. You are not at a liability if you take other classes as less then a 5% damage difference in exchange for often different utilities isn’t going to slow anyone down. About the only thing that is apparent to me, is that Warrior Dungeon PvE is extremely easy.