Guild Wars 2

Seriously what the kitten ? Also the bulwark gyro and sneak gyro…
I know the other ones are bad but they will eventually get buffed, probably before HoT release.
Anyway, function gyro gives you another option for stomping/ress. What’s wrong with that ? Sure it is an AI and not so reliable but it does not make you unable to stomp as well.. Even if the downed player can kill it before it stomps, it is still good.

As for the bulwark gyro, it is a kittening insta cast 50% damage reduction and has around 13k HP. If you know something big is coming and don’t have enough endurance you can just use that gyro and take low damage. Of course it dies so fast, but if traited it leaves a lightning field, dazes, gives super speed (godly if traited) etc. Just use it the second you need it.
With protection, it’s 83% reduction ? Not so sure.

Now the sneak gyro… First of all, it is an insta cast skill. most players need to target you to actually hit you with their strong skills, and this breaks their skill rotation.
Stealth and then use hammer #5 (thunderclap) aoe stunning and leaving lightning field for more dazes (hammer #3). People can’t see your skill animation, use it to your advantage.
Toolbelt skills are nice too.
Also even though the shredder gyro might not be that useful for power builds, it is pretty good for condis. However it isn’t useful against kiters.
Hope I didn’t miss anything

Function Gyro is great. Just not for PvE.

Sneak Gyro is okay, but is too harsh a counter against thieves (I think a 1 – 2 second reveal would be more fair) and unwanted. Also, we are not thieves, we do not care about stealth nearly that much to waste our Elite on it.

You missed quite a bit actually. You missed the part where the traits for Function Gyro only affecting recompletion of res and finishing actions. Which means that the function gyro and it’s connected traits have almost no use whatsoever for the vast majority of time in game. For any and all PvE content they’ll barely ever be active or active when they’ll be actually be useful. The ICDs make sure of it.

You missed the part where Function G has a 30 second cooldown, reducing how useful it is tremendously.

You missed the part where it has HP, which means that as soon as it’s launched any opponent can simply cleave it, you and the downed player it’s interacting with, so it will do precisely nothing.

You missed the part where superspeed looks good on paper “oooh it has the word super in it, it must be good” but in reality is a very brief speedboost and little more. Half the time it’s bugged and only provides the same speed boost as swiftness. In actual combat, it really does very little, especially since speed no longer affects leap distance.

You missed the part where the ICD on the traits, severely limit ability to stack out side of extremely focused builds.

You missed the fact that, even though you yourself admitted to it, in order to be any use whatsoever, you have to use specific traits, which locks you out of other build options. If you don’t want your first two minors to be completely worthelss, you have to skip out on 6 other traits. The minor traits in specific tree should be useful to the character, no matter what other traits they take in the tree. If that isn’t the case, you’ve either provided worthless traits or showehorned people into a specific build, in which case, why even bother having the 6 other traits?

In short, the first two minors are worthless outside of PvP/WvW, not even that great in PvP/WvW and shoe-horn you into specific builds if you don’t want them to completely suck. As for the gyros, most of them aren’t worth taking over kits regardless. We simply can’t afford the utility slots and kits provide not only alternate weapons, but more utility and many of the same effects.

wolfyrik.2017:

You missed quite a bit actually. You missed the part where the traits for Function Gyro only affecting recompletion of res and finishing actions. Which means that the function gyro and it’s connected traits have almost no use whatsoever for the vast majority of time in game. For any and all PvE content they’ll barely ever be active or active when they’ll be actually be useful. The ICDs make sure of it.

You missed the part where Function G has a 30 second cooldown, reducing how useful it is tremendously.

You missed the part where it has HP, which means that as soon as it’s launched any opponent can simply cleave it, you and the downed player it’s interacting with, so it will do precisely nothing.

You missed the part where superspeed looks good on paper “oooh it has the word super in it, it must be good” but in reality is a very brief speedboost and little more. Half the time it’s bugged and only provides the same speed boost as swiftness. In actual combat, it really does very little, especially since speed no longer affects leap distance.

You missed the part where the ICD on the traits, severely limit ability to stack out side of extremely focused builds.

You missed the fact that, even though you yourself admitted to it, in order to be any use whatsoever, you have to use specific traits, which locks you out of other build options. If you don’t want your first two minors to be completely worthelss, you have to skip out on 6 other traits. The minor traits in specific tree should be useful to the character, no matter what other traits they take in the tree. If that isn’t the case, you’ve either provided worthless traits or showehorned people into a specific build, in which case, why even bother having the 6 other traits?

In short, the first two minors are worthless outside of PvP/WvW, not even that great in PvP/WvW and shoe-horn you into specific builds if you don’t want them to completely suck. As for the gyros, most of them aren’t worth taking over kits regardless. We simply can’t afford the utility slots and kits provide not only alternate weapons, but more utility and many of the same effects.

And what you missed is that this only added and took nothing whatsoever away. All it did was give options. And even revives area at times necessary in PvE, saving you time to fight while you’re function gyro does the revive.

Furthermore you can trait your gyros to have effects upon death.

So really its at least mediocre if not good. Boring whatsoever wrong with it

I’m pretty sure Sneak Gyro is overrated. You can see the stealth function coming from a mile away, so as soon as you spot that gyro just unload AoEs into its area. And if you spot the gyro actually flying, then the toolbelt is easy to bait. As a thief, if I’m using stealth for burst then it isn’t a big concern at all. Its just +200 power for six seconds. If I’m using it defensively, then I just need to de-target then combo-heartseeker + shadowstep away. They’ll blow the reveal on thin air, then I can warp back as needed.

What is more interesting is what you have to give up for it. As a thief I’m more worried about supply crate dropping on my head. That elite is a big pile of point control in a neat little package, and back when I used to play Engi it would wreck thieves. I’m also not too keen on being moa’d or mortared.

Morfedel.4165:

And what you missed is that this only added and took nothing whatsoever away. All it did was give options. And even revives area at times necessary in PvE, saving you time to fight while you’re function gyro does the revive.

Furthermore you can trait your gyros to have effects upon death.

So really its at least mediocre if not good. Boring whatsoever wrong with it

It does take away really, it takes away two minor slots which could be better used. Scrapper only gets one BWE. One. The terrible, terrible traits design which plagues engineer, worthless traits in the core class and worthless traits in the Elite spec and the only chance we get to show what the problem is, will be the last. No more testing. We potentially go from major issues in the BWE to launch.

So yes, bad design now, takes away a lot. Poor options are not really options, they’re just a waste of everyones time.

Ya 30 sec cd is a bit much. The ideal of the gyro only being able to port once ever 30 sec for a function skill is ok but just to have it comply locked up for 30 sec makes the gyro function trick seems kind of worthless.

Morfedel.4165:

And what you missed is that this only added and took nothing whatsoever away. All it did was give options. And even revives area at times necessary in PvE, saving you time to fight while you’re function gyro does the revive.

Furthermore you can trait your gyros to have effects upon death.

So really its at least mediocre if not good. Boring whatsoever wrong with it

Mediocre, i like the sound of that! Ill remember that when other elite specializations dodge 3 times in a row baseline, fire exploding sniper rounds, charge around swinging scythes the size of streetlights and travel back in time.

Jokes aside i do like the idea of the gyro, although i do completely understand people arguing that you wont see it in action for most of your combat and if its really needed it might not be enough. PvPers might find it handy in team fights or XvsX+Y, {X,Y>=1} in general where you need to simmultaniously fight and stomp/revive but there is a thing called downed cleave, and with the “tanky” gyro going down in seconds, does this look good for the function gyro? And then you need another trait for it to preform its task reliably. Think about it, one gravedigger and your 30sec cd “special” mechanic is gone, and the gravedigger is recharged.

Lets consider the gravedigger. Its a spinning attack that easily crits for 10k+ without effort (statwise that is). Its primary function is to execute multiple low health targets and as such work excellent for downed cleave. It had its cool down decrease upped to a 100% for this role to really shine. We need to provide something of that caliber given that this is our continuum shift, reaper form, berserk, triple dodge or what have you. The more situational, the bigger the impact when the criteria is met. A extra dodge have lots of uses during the entire fight, especially with the dodge traits, berserking and pulsing stability is also highly useful during the engagement and a necromancer have to use its reaper form or die trying to get into it (oh dear but when they do…). We need for someone to go down on either side to even show our new mechanic. Of course it should be strong, it might even have to be very strong because thats its one jobb. So massively reducing the cooldown (10 sec max) and limit the drones to one at a time would be a start. I might even suggest increasing the range but let the drone originate at your location to allow for reactive counterplay and increase the importance of aoe superspeed.

And this is from a pvp perspective, in pve half of the mechanic is gone. And so that impacts all of the related traits as well. Including 2 minors. And when you really need your scrapper to save you, now that its finally time for him to unveil his mechanic, consider what got your teammates down in the first place? Either you are in a low risk or a high risk situation. In a low risk situation your gyro might have no problem reviving that ally. But then a lot of the time then neither would you. Sure you might save a second or two, but the gyro wasn’t really needed was it? It was more fancy sure but on a total combat contribution how high would you rate it?

Then we have the high risk situation. Okay all bells are ringing, your allies are down and this isn’t just a matter of timesaving anymore its full whipe alert. But then something managed to take down a few geared characters (a situation where the gyro actually would be needed). So if it can take down that player how long is your frail little bot going to last? This is where 30 seconds of cooldown does not help. Who knows it might actually revive someone but in situations where the gyro is needed (not only usable, needed) the odds of another revive being needed within 30 seconds (or heck 45 sec if it works like the utilities does) is not insignificant.

In the end you need to fulfill a few criteria for it to even be theoretically usable, and then the actual contribution is filtered through layers of potential potential potential potential uses.

All in all a large reduction in cool down is a good way to start. And that change need to happen before the last beta weekend.

Im sorry for sounding grumpy, but know that i am a support oriented character who like the goal of this thing, i always run a duo with another player so the amount of time that i can even use it is above average. So if i am skeptical, imagine then players who do not have the luxury of always having a potential potential potential use?

And yes eles i do feel sorry for your singularities.

Sorry, i rant when i am tired.

A 20 sec cooldown would be alright, anything less and we are going to be a little overpowered in longer team fights. Remember the Gyro spawns at the location of your target and performs stomp/rez. Example 2v2 Scrapper + teammate vs 2 others. Teammate goes down and you use Function gyro to rez while dropping a thunderclap on his body. using hammer 3 charge in the field and keep the daze up while rez happens. Teammate rallies and you both get might and superspeed via 2nd minor and resume kicking kitten . the timer needs to be higher then 15 secs due to the fact that you could potentially prolong a 2v2/2v3 for way too long. Yes our job is lockdown but there is a limit that needs to be imposed.

I play PvP so this isn’t from a perspective of “I don’t care about PvP, I only PvE”.

Tuning the Function Gyro for that level of specificity is a mistake. We’re not just talking about PvP in general, or even team fights in general. We’re talking specifically situations where there’s a team fight and multiple people are down AND the Function Gyro is able to get multiple revives/stomps off without being CC’d or killed. That is extremely specific and I certainly hope it’s not being balanced around that sort of idea. Being the mechanic change for the elite spec I think it sort of needs to be able to have that level of impact.

Like others have said, this needs to be on the level of other profession elite spec mechanics. This needs to be on the level of a Mesmer resetting their elite skill and health back to full. A Thief dodging 4-5 times in a row. A Necro with a completely new Shroud. When I look at it with some of those things in mind, being able to potentially revive or stomp two people in a row with my function gyro doesn’t seem all that crazy.

If i get a 100 killshot warriors to line up on a row and reflect them it does not mean that the reflect skill should have a cooldown based on “this skill once downed a 100 warriors”.

The gyro already got a limited health bar and needs yet another trait to gain stability. Not to mention that this is what defines all scrappers. You are free to equip rifle, you might never want to touch a utilitygyro (understandable) but you will have the function gyro in the same way that you always have your toolbelts or a reaper will have reaperform.

I think it would be better to balance it around having to actually get to its target to:

1) better telegraph whats going on for the enemy team.
2) increase the synergy with our shared super speed.
3) be able to increase the range, the range being offset by the time it takes for the drone to travel.
4)Prevent possible abuse like reviving people in enemy keeps etc.

Our new Mechanic i think is great! its Niche yeah, but hey, Toolbelt is WAY too awesome as it stands to change. id take Toolbelt over Chrono shift anyday of the week. It is the first of its kind after all, a Ranged stomp/rez on F key

miriforst.1290:

If i get a 100 killshot warriors to line up on a row and reflect them it does not mean that the reflect skill should have a cooldown based on “this skill once downed a 100 warriors”.

The gyro already got a limited health bar and needs yet another trait to gain stability.

I think it would be better to balance it around having to actually get to its target to:

1) better telegraph whats going on for the enemy team.
2) increase the synergy with our shared super speed.
3) be able to increase the range, the range being offset by the time it takes for the drone to travel.

I think what you said is very important. I don’t think the gyro should appear right on top of your target either. Anet’s favorite buzzword is counterplay, where is the counterplay in that? I actually think the fact that it just appears on your target might be a big part of the ridiculous cooldown.

Make the Gyro appear at the Scrapper and immediately move toward the selected target (here’s your counterplay). Up the range to 900, if not 1200 (more range, more functionality, more counterplay opportunity while it’s moving toward target). Remove the cooldown. Using the Function Gyro destroys any currently active Function Gyro.

Adamantium.3682:

miriforst.1290:

If i get a 100 killshot warriors to line up on a row and reflect them it does not mean that the reflect skill should have a cooldown based on “this skill once downed a 100 warriors”.

The gyro already got a limited health bar and needs yet another trait to gain stability.

I think it would be better to balance it around having to actually get to its target to:

1) better telegraph whats going on for the enemy team.
2) increase the synergy with our shared super speed.
3) be able to increase the range, the range being offset by the time it takes for the drone to travel.

I think what you said is very important. I don’t think the gyro should appear right on top of your target either. Anet’s favorite buzzword is counterplay, where is the counterplay in that? I actually think the fact that it just appears on your target might be a big part of the ridiculous cooldown.

Make the Gyro appear at the Scrapper and immediately move toward the selected target (here’s your counterplay). Up the range to 900, if not 1200 (more range, more functionality, more counterplay opportunity while it’s moving toward target). Remove the cooldown. Using the Function Gyro destroys any currently active Function Gyro.

Indeed, more play for everyone.

Engineers get to use it more often (still not that often), enemies have a big window of counterplay still. High risk high reward.

Though the devil in me wishes to at least secure one post gate stomp on suicide tower mistform-through-gates-cos-balance eles in wvw.

Adamantium.3682:

miriforst.1290:

If i get a 100 killshot warriors to line up on a row and reflect them it does not mean that the reflect skill should have a cooldown based on “this skill once downed a 100 warriors”.

The gyro already got a limited health bar and needs yet another trait to gain stability.

I think it would be better to balance it around having to actually get to its target to:

1) better telegraph whats going on for the enemy team.
2) increase the synergy with our shared super speed.
3) be able to increase the range, the range being offset by the time it takes for the drone to travel.

I think what you said is very important. I don’t think the gyro should appear right on top of your target either. Anet’s favorite buzzword is counterplay, where is the counterplay in that? I actually think the fact that it just appears on your target might be a big part of the ridiculous cooldown.

Make the Gyro appear at the Scrapper and immediately move toward the selected target (here’s your counterplay). Up the range to 900, if not 1200 (more range, more functionality, more counterplay opportunity while it’s moving toward target). Remove the cooldown. Using the Function Gyro destroys any currently active Function Gyro.

I like this. I still think a modest cooldown makes sense.

The big issue here is Final Salvo.

Adamantium.3682:

miriforst.1290:

If i get a 100 killshot warriors to line up on a row and reflect them it does not mean that the reflect skill should have a cooldown based on “this skill once downed a 100 warriors”.

The gyro already got a limited health bar and needs yet another trait to gain stability.

I think it would be better to balance it around having to actually get to its target to:

1) better telegraph whats going on for the enemy team.
2) increase the synergy with our shared super speed.
3) be able to increase the range, the range being offset by the time it takes for the drone to travel.

I think what you said is very important. I don’t think the gyro should appear right on top of your target either. Anet’s favorite buzzword is counterplay, where is the counterplay in that? I actually think the fact that it just appears on your target might be a big part of the ridiculous cooldown.

Make the Gyro appear at the Scrapper and immediately move toward the selected target (here’s your counterplay). Up the range to 900, if not 1200 (more range, more functionality, more counterplay opportunity while it’s moving toward target). Remove the cooldown. Using the Function Gyro destroys any currently active Function Gyro.

Yeah totally this ^^

lorddarkflare.9186:

Adamantium.3682:

miriforst.1290:

If i get a 100 killshot warriors to line up on a row and reflect them it does not mean that the reflect skill should have a cooldown based on “this skill once downed a 100 warriors”.

The gyro already got a limited health bar and needs yet another trait to gain stability.

I think it would be better to balance it around having to actually get to its target to:

1) better telegraph whats going on for the enemy team.
2) increase the synergy with our shared super speed.
3) be able to increase the range, the range being offset by the time it takes for the drone to travel.

I think what you said is very important. I don’t think the gyro should appear right on top of your target either. Anet’s favorite buzzword is counterplay, where is the counterplay in that? I actually think the fact that it just appears on your target might be a big part of the ridiculous cooldown.

Make the Gyro appear at the Scrapper and immediately move toward the selected target (here’s your counterplay). Up the range to 900, if not 1200 (more range, more functionality, more counterplay opportunity while it’s moving toward target). Remove the cooldown. Using the Function Gyro destroys any currently active Function Gyro.

I like this. I still think a modest cooldown makes sense.

The big issue here is Final Salvo.

I’m open to a cooldown not exceeding 10 seconds. I would like to see it in action before determining one way or another, I just feel the times that you would want it back-to-back are SO niche that we should just let that be an option the Engineer has.

Nerfing the base mechanic because of a potential GM trait problem annoys me greatly. That sounds backwards to me.

Adamantium.3682:

lorddarkflare.9186:

Adamantium.3682:

miriforst.1290:

If i get a 100 killshot warriors to line up on a row and reflect them it does not mean that the reflect skill should have a cooldown based on “this skill once downed a 100 warriors”.

The gyro already got a limited health bar and needs yet another trait to gain stability.

I think it would be better to balance it around having to actually get to its target to:

1) better telegraph whats going on for the enemy team.
2) increase the synergy with our shared super speed.
3) be able to increase the range, the range being offset by the time it takes for the drone to travel.

I think what you said is very important. I don’t think the gyro should appear right on top of your target either. Anet’s favorite buzzword is counterplay, where is the counterplay in that? I actually think the fact that it just appears on your target might be a big part of the ridiculous cooldown.

Make the Gyro appear at the Scrapper and immediately move toward the selected target (here’s your counterplay). Up the range to 900, if not 1200 (more range, more functionality, more counterplay opportunity while it’s moving toward target). Remove the cooldown. Using the Function Gyro destroys any currently active Function Gyro.

I like this. I still think a modest cooldown makes sense.

The big issue here is Final Salvo.

I’m open to a cooldown not exceeding 10 seconds. I would like to see it in action before determining one way or another, I just feel the times that you would want it back-to-back are SO niche that we should just let that be an option the Engineer has.

Nerfing the base mechanic because of a potential GM trait problem annoys me greatly. That sounds backwards to me.

Final Salvo/Stabilizing Core are issues for your buff, not the original design. 8 – 10 seconds is good. Maybe even a bit too good.

And no back-to-back use is just something we will have to live without as a penalty for increased synergy between traits.

Final Salvo would require a harsh nerf at the very least and Stabilizing Core would need a 20 – 25 sec cooldown.

lorddarkflare.9186:

Adamantium.3682:

lorddarkflare.9186:

Adamantium.3682:

miriforst.1290:

If i get a 100 killshot warriors to line up on a row and reflect them it does not mean that the reflect skill should have a cooldown based on “this skill once downed a 100 warriors”.

The gyro already got a limited health bar and needs yet another trait to gain stability.

I think it would be better to balance it around having to actually get to its target to:

1) better telegraph whats going on for the enemy team.
2) increase the synergy with our shared super speed.
3) be able to increase the range, the range being offset by the time it takes for the drone to travel.

I think what you said is very important. I don’t think the gyro should appear right on top of your target either. Anet’s favorite buzzword is counterplay, where is the counterplay in that? I actually think the fact that it just appears on your target might be a big part of the ridiculous cooldown.

Make the Gyro appear at the Scrapper and immediately move toward the selected target (here’s your counterplay). Up the range to 900, if not 1200 (more range, more functionality, more counterplay opportunity while it’s moving toward target). Remove the cooldown. Using the Function Gyro destroys any currently active Function Gyro.

I like this. I still think a modest cooldown makes sense.

The big issue here is Final Salvo.

I’m open to a cooldown not exceeding 10 seconds. I would like to see it in action before determining one way or another, I just feel the times that you would want it back-to-back are SO niche that we should just let that be an option the Engineer has.

Nerfing the base mechanic because of a potential GM trait problem annoys me greatly. That sounds backwards to me.

Final Salvo/Stabilizing Core are issues for your buff, not the original design. 8 – 10 seconds is good. Maybe even a bit too good.

And no back-to-back use is just something we will have to live without as a penalty for increased synergy between traits.

Final Salvo would require a harsh nerf at the very least and Stabilizing Core would need a 20 – 25 sec cooldown.

Fair enough. I would gladly put the cooldown on Stabilizing Core instead of the Function Gyro. Sign me up. Don’t nerf the base mechanic because of a potential broken trait combo is all I’m saying.

As for Final Salvo? Just make it so replacing your current Function Gyro with a new one isn’t considered destroying. It won’t make an AOE field, it won’t daze, it’s not a self destruct. Let’s say you call it back to you and then it performs function on another target instead.

Done and done. What do you think?

Adamantium.3682:

lorddarkflare.9186:

Adamantium.3682:

lorddarkflare.9186:

Adamantium.3682:

miriforst.1290:

If i get a 100 killshot warriors to line up on a row and reflect them it does not mean that the reflect skill should have a cooldown based on “this skill once downed a 100 warriors”.

The gyro already got a limited health bar and needs yet another trait to gain stability.

I think it would be better to balance it around having to actually get to its target to:

1) better telegraph whats going on for the enemy team.
2) increase the synergy with our shared super speed.
3) be able to increase the range, the range being offset by the time it takes for the drone to travel.

I think what you said is very important. I don’t think the gyro should appear right on top of your target either. Anet’s favorite buzzword is counterplay, where is the counterplay in that? I actually think the fact that it just appears on your target might be a big part of the ridiculous cooldown.

Make the Gyro appear at the Scrapper and immediately move toward the selected target (here’s your counterplay). Up the range to 900, if not 1200 (more range, more functionality, more counterplay opportunity while it’s moving toward target). Remove the cooldown. Using the Function Gyro destroys any currently active Function Gyro.

I like this. I still think a modest cooldown makes sense.

The big issue here is Final Salvo.

I’m open to a cooldown not exceeding 10 seconds. I would like to see it in action before determining one way or another, I just feel the times that you would want it back-to-back are SO niche that we should just let that be an option the Engineer has.

Nerfing the base mechanic because of a potential GM trait problem annoys me greatly. That sounds backwards to me.

Final Salvo/Stabilizing Core are issues for your buff, not the original design. 8 – 10 seconds is good. Maybe even a bit too good.

And no back-to-back use is just something we will have to live without as a penalty for increased synergy between traits.

Final Salvo would require a harsh nerf at the very least and Stabilizing Core would need a 20 – 25 sec cooldown.

Fair enough. I would gladly put the cooldown on Stabilizing Core instead of the Function Gyro. Sign me up. Don’t nerf the base mechanic because of a potential broken trait combo is all I’m saying.

As for Final Salvo? Just make it so replacing your current Function Gyro with a new one isn’t considered destroying. It won’t make an AOE field, it won’t daze, it’s not a self destruct. Let’s say you call it back to you and then it performs function on another target instead.

Done and done. What do you think?

A cooldown is still really needed.

If you and are fighting a player near another downed opponent, you can forever divide your current opponent’s attention between you and the down player.

That is TOO good.

lorddarkflare.9186:

Adamantium.3682:

lorddarkflare.9186:

Adamantium.3682:

lorddarkflare.9186:

Adamantium.3682:

miriforst.1290:

If i get a 100 killshot warriors to line up on a row and reflect them it does not mean that the reflect skill should have a cooldown based on “this skill once downed a 100 warriors”.

The gyro already got a limited health bar and needs yet another trait to gain stability.

I think it would be better to balance it around having to actually get to its target to:

1) better telegraph whats going on for the enemy team.
2) increase the synergy with our shared super speed.
3) be able to increase the range, the range being offset by the time it takes for the drone to travel.

I think what you said is very important. I don’t think the gyro should appear right on top of your target either. Anet’s favorite buzzword is counterplay, where is the counterplay in that? I actually think the fact that it just appears on your target might be a big part of the ridiculous cooldown.

Make the Gyro appear at the Scrapper and immediately move toward the selected target (here’s your counterplay). Up the range to 900, if not 1200 (more range, more functionality, more counterplay opportunity while it’s moving toward target). Remove the cooldown. Using the Function Gyro destroys any currently active Function Gyro.

I like this. I still think a modest cooldown makes sense.

The big issue here is Final Salvo.

I’m open to a cooldown not exceeding 10 seconds. I would like to see it in action before determining one way or another, I just feel the times that you would want it back-to-back are SO niche that we should just let that be an option the Engineer has.

Nerfing the base mechanic because of a potential GM trait problem annoys me greatly. That sounds backwards to me.

Final Salvo/Stabilizing Core are issues for your buff, not the original design. 8 – 10 seconds is good. Maybe even a bit too good.

And no back-to-back use is just something we will have to live without as a penalty for increased synergy between traits.

Final Salvo would require a harsh nerf at the very least and Stabilizing Core would need a 20 – 25 sec cooldown.

Fair enough. I would gladly put the cooldown on Stabilizing Core instead of the Function Gyro. Sign me up. Don’t nerf the base mechanic because of a potential broken trait combo is all I’m saying.

As for Final Salvo? Just make it so replacing your current Function Gyro with a new one isn’t considered destroying. It won’t make an AOE field, it won’t daze, it’s not a self destruct. Let’s say you call it back to you and then it performs function on another target instead.

Done and done. What do you think?

A cooldown is still really needed.

If you and are fighting a player near another downed opponent, you can forever divide your current opponent’s attention between you and the down player.

That is TOO good.

I think you’re stretching it now. Downed bodies don’t last that long. In this hypothetical situation the downed body is either going to be (a) stomped by your gyro, (b) cleaved to death by you while fighting the other guy, or © revived by the other guy. This is going to happen within 10-15s just like it always does no matter how many times they manage to kill your gyro and you resummon it in that time. I don’t see this being a problem at all.

I’m willing to play it out and see (if the changes actually get it to this place you and I are discussing) but I really don’t see this being a problem.

Funcion Gyro is a minor trait, therefore just nice to have – I wonder if I can heal WITH the gryo for double speed? Anyone thought about that huh?

The Bulwark also is just magnificent. I guess people underestimate its power, especially the toolbelt wich seems to be a different and maybe better version of throw elixier U.

The stealth gyros toolbelt is just useless for pve, that is sad. So is the gyro itself if he gets attacked while skipping

Adamantium.3682:

lorddarkflare.9186:

Adamantium.3682:

lorddarkflare.9186:

Adamantium.3682:

lorddarkflare.9186:

Adamantium.3682:

miriforst.1290:

If i get a 100 killshot warriors to line up on a row and reflect them it does not mean that the reflect skill should have a cooldown based on “this skill once downed a 100 warriors”.

The gyro already got a limited health bar and needs yet another trait to gain stability.

I think it would be better to balance it around having to actually get to its target to:

1) better telegraph whats going on for the enemy team.
2) increase the synergy with our shared super speed.
3) be able to increase the range, the range being offset by the time it takes for the drone to travel.

I think what you said is very important. I don’t think the gyro should appear right on top of your target either. Anet’s favorite buzzword is counterplay, where is the counterplay in that? I actually think the fact that it just appears on your target might be a big part of the ridiculous cooldown.

Make the Gyro appear at the Scrapper and immediately move toward the selected target (here’s your counterplay). Up the range to 900, if not 1200 (more range, more functionality, more counterplay opportunity while it’s moving toward target). Remove the cooldown. Using the Function Gyro destroys any currently active Function Gyro.

I like this. I still think a modest cooldown makes sense.

The big issue here is Final Salvo.

I’m open to a cooldown not exceeding 10 seconds. I would like to see it in action before determining one way or another, I just feel the times that you would want it back-to-back are SO niche that we should just let that be an option the Engineer has.

Nerfing the base mechanic because of a potential GM trait problem annoys me greatly. That sounds backwards to me.

Final Salvo/Stabilizing Core are issues for your buff, not the original design. 8 – 10 seconds is good. Maybe even a bit too good.

And no back-to-back use is just something we will have to live without as a penalty for increased synergy between traits.

Final Salvo would require a harsh nerf at the very least and Stabilizing Core would need a 20 – 25 sec cooldown.

Fair enough. I would gladly put the cooldown on Stabilizing Core instead of the Function Gyro. Sign me up. Don’t nerf the base mechanic because of a potential broken trait combo is all I’m saying.

As for Final Salvo? Just make it so replacing your current Function Gyro with a new one isn’t considered destroying. It won’t make an AOE field, it won’t daze, it’s not a self destruct. Let’s say you call it back to you and then it performs function on another target instead.

Done and done. What do you think?

A cooldown is still really needed.

If you and are fighting a player near another downed opponent, you can forever divide your current opponent’s attention between you and the down player.

That is TOO good.

I think you’re stretching it now. Downed bodies don’t last that long. In this hypothetical situation the downed body is either going to be (a) stomped by your gyro, (b) cleaved to death by you while fighting the other guy, or © revived by the other guy. This is going to happen within 10-15s just like it always does no matter how many times they manage to kill your gyro and you resummon it in that time. I don’t see this being a problem at all.

Right, but the ability to attempt the stomp on multiple occasions without risk to yourself is too much.

The other proposed buff makes this trait worthy of its slot, so I do not think it really needs this additional buff.

wolfyrik.2017:

Morfedel.4165:

And what you missed is that this only added and took nothing whatsoever away. All it did was give options. And even revives area at times necessary in PvE, saving you time to fight while you’re function gyro does the revive.

Furthermore you can trait your gyros to have effects upon death.

So really its at least mediocre if not good. Boring whatsoever wrong with it

It does take away really, it takes away two minor slots which could be better used. Scrapper only gets one BWE. One. The terrible, terrible traits design which plagues engineer, worthless traits in the core class and worthless traits in the Elite spec and the only chance we get to show what the problem is, will be the last. No more testing. We potentially go from major issues in the BWE to launch.

So yes, bad design now, takes away a lot. Poor options are not really options, they’re just a waste of everyones time.

And we know all this before even playing it. That’s funny.

Also there are many people excited about the function gyro. Not everyone agrees with you.

Why don’t we just wait and see before passing judgement.

miriforst.1290:

Morfedel.4165:

And what you missed is that this only added and took nothing whatsoever away. All it did was give options. And even revives area at times necessary in PvE, saving you time to fight while you’re function gyro does the revive.

Furthermore you can trait your gyros to have effects upon death.

So really its at least mediocre if not good. Boring whatsoever wrong with it

Mediocre, i like the sound of that! Ill remember that when other elite specializations dodge 3 times in a row baseline, fire exploding sniper rounds, charge around swinging scythes the size of streetlights and travel back in time.

Jokes aside i do like the idea of the gyro, although i do completely understand people arguing that you wont see it in action for most of your combat and if its really needed it might not be enough. PvPers might find it handy in team fights or XvsX+Y, {X,Y>=1} in general where you need to simmultaniously fight and stomp/revive but there is a thing called downed cleave, and with the “tanky” gyro going down in seconds, does this look good for the function gyro? And then you need another trait for it to preform its task reliably. Think about it, one gravedigger and your 30sec cd “special” mechanic is gone, and the gravedigger is recharged.

Lets consider the gravedigger. Its a spinning attack that easily crits for 10k+ without effort (statwise that is). Its primary function is to execute multiple low health targets and as such work excellent for downed cleave. It had its cool down decrease upped to a 100% for this role to really shine. We need to provide something of that caliber given that this is our continuum shift, reaper form, berserk, triple dodge or what have you. The more situational, the bigger the impact when the criteria is met. A extra dodge have lots of uses during the entire fight, especially with the dodge traits, berserking and pulsing stability is also highly useful during the engagement and a necromancer have to use its reaper form or die trying to get into it (oh dear but when they do…). We need for someone to go down on either side to even show our new mechanic. Of course it should be strong, it might even have to be very strong because thats its one jobb. So massively reducing the cooldown (10 sec max) and limit the drones to one at a time would be a start. I might even suggest increasing the range but let the drone originate at your location to allow for reactive counterplay and increase the importance of aoe superspeed.

And this is from a pvp perspective, in pve half of the mechanic is gone. And so that impacts all of the related traits as well. Including 2 minors. And when you really need your scrapper to save you, now that its finally time for him to unveil his mechanic, consider what got your teammates down in the first place? Either you are in a low risk or a high risk situation. In a low risk situation your gyro might have no problem reviving that ally. But then a lot of the time then neither would you. Sure you might save a second or two, but the gyro wasn’t really needed was it? It was more fancy sure but on a total combat contribution how high would you rate it?

Then we have the high risk situation. Okay all bells are ringing, your allies are down and this isn’t just a matter of timesaving anymore its full whipe alert. But then something managed to take down a few geared characters (a situation where the gyro actually would be needed). So if it can take down that player how long is your frail little bot going to last? This is where 30 seconds of cooldown does not help. Who knows it might actually revive someone but in situations where the gyro is needed (not only usable, needed) the odds of another revive being needed within 30 seconds (or heck 45 sec if it works like the utilities does) is not insignificant.

In the end you need to fulfill a few criteria for it to even be theoretically usable, and then the actual contribution is filtered through layers of potential potential potential potential uses.

All in all a large reduction in cool down is a good way to start. And that change need to happen before the last beta weekend.

Im sorry for sounding grumpy, but know that i am a support oriented character who like the goal of this thing, i always run a duo with another player so the amount of time that i can even use it is above average. So if i am skeptical, imagine then players who do not have the luxury of always having a potential potential potential use?

And yes eles i do feel sorry for your singularities.

Sorry, i rant when i am tired.

And we were specifically discussing the addition of the function gyro to the f key, not the rest of the skills.

Frankly I think it’s a very cool addition, and one I will be using a lot in PvP + world vs world, and possibly a little bit in PvE. The mediocre it was another way of saying it’s not great but it’s not terrible either.

Morfedel.4165:

miriforst.1290:

Morfedel.4165:

And what you missed is that this only added and took nothing whatsoever away. All it did was give options. And even revives area at times necessary in PvE, saving you time to fight while you’re function gyro does the revive.

Furthermore you can trait your gyros to have effects upon death.

So really its at least mediocre if not good. Boring whatsoever wrong with it

Mediocre, i like the sound of that! Ill remember that when other elite specializations dodge 3 times in a row baseline, fire exploding sniper rounds, charge around swinging scythes the size of streetlights and travel back in time.

Jokes aside i do like the idea of the gyro, although i do completely understand people arguing that you wont see it in action for most of your combat and if its really needed it might not be enough. PvPers might find it handy in team fights or XvsX+Y, {X,Y>=1} in general where you need to simmultaniously fight and stomp/revive but there is a thing called downed cleave, and with the “tanky” gyro going down in seconds, does this look good for the function gyro? And then you need another trait for it to preform its task reliably. Think about it, one gravedigger and your 30sec cd “special” mechanic is gone, and the gravedigger is recharged.

Lets consider the gravedigger. Its a spinning attack that easily crits for 10k+ without effort (statwise that is). Its primary function is to execute multiple low health targets and as such work excellent for downed cleave. It had its cool down decrease upped to a 100% for this role to really shine. We need to provide something of that caliber given that this is our continuum shift, reaper form, berserk, triple dodge or what have you. The more situational, the bigger the impact when the criteria is met. A extra dodge have lots of uses during the entire fight, especially with the dodge traits, berserking and pulsing stability is also highly useful during the engagement and a necromancer have to use its reaper form or die trying to get into it (oh dear but when they do…). We need for someone to go down on either side to even show our new mechanic. Of course it should be strong, it might even have to be very strong because thats its one jobb. So massively reducing the cooldown (10 sec max) and limit the drones to one at a time would be a start. I might even suggest increasing the range but let the drone originate at your location to allow for reactive counterplay and increase the importance of aoe superspeed.

And this is from a pvp perspective, in pve half of the mechanic is gone. And so that impacts all of the related traits as well. Including 2 minors. And when you really need your scrapper to save you, now that its finally time for him to unveil his mechanic, consider what got your teammates down in the first place? Either you are in a low risk or a high risk situation. In a low risk situation your gyro might have no problem reviving that ally. But then a lot of the time then neither would you. Sure you might save a second or two, but the gyro wasn’t really needed was it? It was more fancy sure but on a total combat contribution how high would you rate it?

Then we have the high risk situation. Okay all bells are ringing, your allies are down and this isn’t just a matter of timesaving anymore its full whipe alert. But then something managed to take down a few geared characters (a situation where the gyro actually would be needed). So if it can take down that player how long is your frail little bot going to last? This is where 30 seconds of cooldown does not help. Who knows it might actually revive someone but in situations where the gyro is needed (not only usable, needed) the odds of another revive being needed within 30 seconds (or heck 45 sec if it works like the utilities does) is not insignificant.

In the end you need to fulfill a few criteria for it to even be theoretically usable, and then the actual contribution is filtered through layers of potential potential potential potential uses.

All in all a large reduction in cool down is a good way to start. And that change need to happen before the last beta weekend.

Im sorry for sounding grumpy, but know that i am a support oriented character who like the goal of this thing, i always run a duo with another player so the amount of time that i can even use it is above average. So if i am skeptical, imagine then players who do not have the luxury of always having a potential potential potential use?

And yes eles i do feel sorry for your singularities.

Sorry, i rant when i am tired.

And we were specifically discussing the addition of the function gyro to the f key, not the rest of the skills.

Frankly I think it’s a very cool addition, and one I will be using a lot in PvP + world vs world, and possibly a little bit in PvE. The mediocre it was another way of saying it’s not great but it’s not terrible either.

Come on fellow Engineer! This is our chance to help make it great! Don’t settle for mediocre. This is the only time since the game launched three years ago where there is a time a developer has specifically asked for feedback specifically for making the Engineer better. I have been posting walls of text in the other elite spec threads that I had time to properly test because this is a rare chance we have. We don’t have to just live with it. Rather than complain in 3 months (not saying you specifically will, just in general) let’s make the most of the chance we have now to work with Irenio and make it great. That’s the great thing about these feedback threads in the different forums right now. The devs are actually listening to valid feedback. Give your own ideas, say what you like and what doesn’t work, give reasons for it and how it could be better. As long as it’s valid feedback and not just trolling (which there has been very little of so far, good job Engineers!) I think the more of it Irenio has the better. He can focus on what the majority seems to agree on and go from there.

We may not get everything we want. In fact I can guarantee we won’t. But some things will change, and if we make ourselves heard then we can improve the Scrapper. I don’t know why any Engineer would not want to see that happen.

They did not even show it in the reveal. It is unfinished and not game changing.

Voramoz.6790:

They did not even show it in the reveal. It is unfinished and not game changing.

Definitely un-finished. Like all the specs as they were introduced. Except for Chronomancer.

Come on fellow Engineer! This is our chance to help make it great! Don’t settle for mediocre. This is the only time since the game launched three years ago where there is a time a developer has specifically asked for feedback specifically for making the Engineer better. I have been posting walls of text in the other elite spec threads that I had time to properly test because this is a rare chance we have. We don’t have to just live with it. Rather than complain in 3 months (not saying you specifically will, just in general) let’s make the most of the chance we have now to work with Irenio and make it great. That’s the great thing about these feedback threads in the different forums right now. The devs are actually listening to valid feedback. Give your own ideas, say what you like and what doesn’t work, give reasons for it and how it could be better. As long as it’s valid feedback and not just trolling (which there has been very little of so far, good job Engineers!) I think the more of it Irenio has the better. He can focus on what the majority seems to agree on and go from there.

We may not get everything we want. In fact I can guarantee we won’t. But some things will change, and if we make ourselves heard then we can improve the Scrapper. I don’t know why any Engineer would not want to see that happen.

Oh don’t get me wrong. I’m not saying there’s no room for improvement. I’m arguing against those who are saying it’s worthless.

So how would you improve it for pve without making it too powerful in pvp and wvw and without changing it’s core concept?

lorddarkflare.9186:

Voramoz.6790:

They did not even show it in the reveal. It is unfinished and not game changing.

Definitely un-finished. Like all the specs as they were introduced. Except for Chronomancer.

That did worry me a little that they didn’t show off the function gyro

Thinking on it i would not mind seeing say a 10 sec cd on the function of gyro but once they complete the task as in rezing some one or spiking some one they blow up in an effect related to what they are doing. So if you rez it dose an aoe heal and stab if it spikes its an “body trap” so if some one trys to go near that ppl body they blow up.

I will admit that though I do like the function gyro concept a lot, I do not like the cool down. 10 seconds may be too much though. Maybe 15 seconds?

oh haha i had an idea: a trait, Elixir Infused Gyros. Whenever a gyro is destroyed, it triggers some kind of effect. For example, healing gyro creates a regen field or something, function gyro could create the effects of the elixir r toolbelt skill or somesuch, etc etc.

lorddarkflare.9186:

Function Gyro is great. Just not for PvE.

Sneak Gyro is okay, but is too harsh a counter against thieves (I think a 1 – 2 second reveal would be more fair) and unwanted. Also, we are not thieves, we do not care about stealth nearly that much to waste our Elite on it.

This seems hypocritical to me, as the ability of thieves and mesmers to endlessly chain, or spam stealth at will, strikes me as unfair to the other 6 professions who have reasonably limited stealth, or no stealth at all.

The proposed goal of the elite specializations “new mechanics” was “to make your proffession play in a new way”. Well, with the function gyro, the “new way” is plainly “PvP when there is someone in the ground”. Two minor traits we CAN’T choose, fully dedicated to support a mechanic that only has value in competitive play…

That is bad design in multiple ways: first, it doesn’t let you play in a new way, but forces you to play in a specific one. Second, it doesn’t change how you play most of the time, only how you play in very narrow situations. Third, the little change in playstyle that DO exist consist in clicking someone, and then simply press F.

BIG GAMEPLAY CHANGE…. No.
Small, situational, unreliable, unskilled, unchallenging, forgettable, needless change.
Petty.

In favor of the Scrapper I must say the hammer and some traits looks really great. However, I doubt I’ll be able to afford a traitline with a petty spec mechanic, an AI dependent (Aka, useless) set of utilitys, and a similarly restricted and redundant Elite.

The Function Gyro should do more, than just one most likely unsuccessful stomp/res every 30s.
It’s advertised as our new mechanic, so it should take a noticeable effect on our gameplay not only every 30s and also be viable in PvE.
Let it mine, collect loot, hell even go to the TP and collect gold or something like that.

The F-Gyro should:

• float permanently around the Engineer (visual all time, basically a mini)
• while inactive/in standby it should be unselectable and invulnerable
• get some kind of “action-stacks” for the performed task, e.g. stomp = 2 stomp-stacks, res = 2 res-stacks, etc.
  - If a task is started it floats to its destination, e.g. attempting to stomp.
  - If interrupted the stacks decrease and it starts a new attempt.
  - If 0 stacks are reached it aborts and floats back to the Engineer.
  The failed task goes on 5s or 10s cd. It is invulnerable while executing tasks, so it has to be cced to be interrupted.
• successful tasks also put this action e.g. stomp on cd for 5s-10s
• tasks are handled separately, while stomp is on cd, it can still res
• traits that activate for spawning the F-Gyro are activated if a task e.g. stomp-attempt is started.

What i dont understand is, the mesmer gets his new F skill without skilling it with a trait, the thief get 3 doges without the need to skill it with a trait, the necro gets the new f skill also for free. We must skill it and lose one Trait for it and in my opinion a very good one 25% Stunduration -25% stunduration on me.

Haralin.1473:

What i dont understand is, the mesmer gets his new F skill without skilling it with a trait, the thief get 3 doges without the need to skill it with a trait, the necro gets the new f skill also for free. We must skill it and lose one Trait for it and in my opinion a very good one 25% Stunduration -25% stunduration on me.

What are you talking about? What does “skilling it” supposed to mean?

People think that PvE will continue to be just like speed run, EZ-mode dungeons and they expect Function Gyro to be another clone of “Search and Rescue”, so they’re discounting it right off the bat.

But I expect people will be glad to have it when raids come out…

And in PvP, I fear it may be something so OP that it gets nerfed. I mean, being able to instantly stability stomp, regardless of any CC or distance from an enemy may not leave enough room for counterplay. Course, this may just make stealth rezzes that much more important.

Dahkeus.8243:

And in PvP, I fear it may be something so OP that it gets nerfed. I mean, being able to instantly stability stomp, regardless of any CC or distance from an enemy may not leave enough room for counterplay. Course, this may just make stealth rezzes that much more important.

Just if it has enough HP to survive the attacks of an power specced downed enemy. Maybe it is so easily destroyed, that it will never be able to deliver a single stomp?

No one knows so far, so we have to test it in the BWE. But I don’t think it will be hard enough to kill it.

Kodama.6453:

Dahkeus.8243:

And in PvP, I fear it may be something so OP that it gets nerfed. I mean, being able to instantly stability stomp, regardless of any CC or distance from an enemy may not leave enough room for counterplay. Course, this may just make stealth rezzes that much more important.

Just if it has enough HP to survive the attacks of an power specced downed enemy. Maybe it is so easily destroyed, that it will never be able to deliver a single stomp?

No one knows so far, so we have to test it in the BWE. But I don’t think it will be hard enough to kill it.

Yup, total valid point. That may be the best way for them to balance it if it becomes to strong or too weak.

Dahkeus.8243:

People think that PvE will continue to be just like speed run, EZ-mode dungeons and they expect Function Gyro to be another clone of “Search and Rescue”, so they’re discounting it right off the bat.

But I expect people will be glad to have it when raids come out…

And in PvP, I fear it may be something so OP that it gets nerfed. I mean, being able to instantly stability stomp, regardless of any CC or distance from an enemy may not leave enough room for counterplay. Course, this may just make stealth rezzes that much more important.

I think people expect that if the new content is so hard that it becomes useful, its in an environment where it will be useless/heavily neutered. Situations like “I cant revive you but my gyro can!” require the gyro to actually handle whatever hazards making you unable to do it yourself. Of course there is a trait that gives you both stability when you start your revival, but then give that trait the 30 sec cooldown instead of the gyro.

Morfedel.4165:

Oh don’t get me wrong. I’m not saying there’s no room for improvement. I’m arguing against those who are saying it’s worthless.

So how would you improve it for pve without making it too powerful in pvp and wvw and without changing it’s core concept?

Isn’t this exactly the problem though? Engineer’s have already seen precisely this problem played out for three years with turrets. They’re either pitifully weak in all game modes or they’re too powerful for PvP. Exactly how would you make yet another Ai utility useful across all game modes, when Anet has already proven that they cannot do it? Not only with Engi, in fact, but every single Ai using class.

Could it be that the core conecpt is fatally flawed?

One of the many reasons people recognise gyros as a bad idea or feel that they are worthless, is because we’ve read this metaphorical book before. We know how it ends.

Frankly the only sensible thing I can see to do with gyros, (outside of scrapping them as the terrible idea that they are) is to make Decisive renown baseline or add PvE functionality ontop of it, seriously reduce the cooldown to around 15-20 seconds and add in other f Key activations by default. Then they need to remove one of the gates. I don’t care which one but triple-gated short duration utilities is an absurd idea, from the genius that brought us ICD on dodge traits I suspect. kitten . Then they need to double the HP OF the gyros, at the very least and potentially triple the HP of the Bulwark or remove it’s HP completely and reduce it’s duration to only a few seconds. That’s just to start with.

Of course what really upsets me is that we have to do any of this in the first place. Why Anet would so utterly and completely fail to learn from their previous mistakes, mistakes which have been proven thoroughly, consistantly over the last three years, always ending in complete failure, is just beyond my ability to understand. You’d think that after they balanced ranger pets, turrets and spirit weapons for the third or fourth time, they’d have worked it out.

I just can’t even

miriforst.1290:

Dahkeus.8243:

People think that PvE will continue to be just like speed run, EZ-mode dungeons and they expect Function Gyro to be another clone of “Search and Rescue”, so they’re discounting it right off the bat.

But I expect people will be glad to have it when raids come out…

And in PvP, I fear it may be something so OP that it gets nerfed. I mean, being able to instantly stability stomp, regardless of any CC or distance from an enemy may not leave enough room for counterplay. Course, this may just make stealth rezzes that much more important.

I think people expect that if the new content is so hard that it becomes useful, its in an environment where it will be useless/heavily neutered. Situations like “I cant revive you but my gyro can!” require the gyro to actually handle whatever hazards making you unable to do it yourself. Of course there is a trait that gives you both stability when you start your revival, but then give that trait the 30 sec cooldown instead of the gyro.

I really don’t buy that though. It’s not supposed to be a guaranteed, perfect rez, regardless of how much bad AoE your ally died in and it doesn’t need to be in order to be a clutch ability. If it was, it would pretty much just be a warbanner on a 30 second cooldown without the cost of your elite skill slot.

It will double your rez speed, allowing you to rez before bad stuff lands or at least allow you to rez if there’s bad stuff between you and the ally, but not directly on top of the ally.

I’ve been wondering after the last ebta if Anet would adjust the Gyros to have special effects if they are destroyed to give players a reason why they would want the gyros destroyed and enemies (NPC and players) not want to destroy those gyros.

Such as giving them special destroyed effects for when Gyros are destroyed by Enemy, Players, or self-destruct.

wolfyrik.2017:

Morfedel.4165:

Oh don’t get me wrong. I’m not saying there’s no room for improvement. I’m arguing against those who are saying it’s worthless.

So how would you improve it for pve without making it too powerful in pvp and wvw and without changing it’s core concept?

Isn’t this exactly the problem though? Engineer’s have already seen precisely this problem played out for three years with turrets. They’re either pitifully weak in all game modes or they’re too powerful for PvP. Exactly how would you make yet another Ai utility useful across all game modes, when Anet has already proven that they cannot do it? Not only with Engi, in fact, but every single Ai using class.

Could it be that the core conecpt is fatally flawed?

One of the many reasons people recognise gyros as a bad idea or feel that they are worthless, is because we’ve read this metaphorical book before. We know how it ends.

Frankly the only sensible thing I can see to do with gyros, (outside of scrapping them as the terrible idea that they are) is to make Decisive renown baseline or add PvE functionality ontop of it, seriously reduce the cooldown to around 15-20 seconds and add in other f Key activations by default. Then they need to remove one of the gates. I don’t care which one but triple-gated short duration utilities is an absurd idea, from the genius that brought us ICD on dodge traits I suspect. kitten . Then they need to double the HP OF the gyros, at the very least and potentially triple the HP of the Bulwark or remove it’s HP completely and reduce it’s duration to only a few seconds. That’s just to start with.

Of course what really upsets me is that we have to do any of this in the first place. Why Anet would so utterly and completely fail to learn from their previous mistakes, mistakes which have been proven thoroughly, consistantly over the last three years, always ending in complete failure, is just beyond my ability to understand. You’d think that after they balanced ranger pets, turrets and spirit weapons for the third or fourth time, they’d have worked it out.

I just can’t even

Exactly my thoughts.. I would really like to know what they where thinking, while doing it.

a: We have still no idea for Engineer’s specialisation.
b: Don’t we have a concept with mobile turrets back from release?
a: Yeah, but they were similar to spirit weapons, which no one uses currently.
b: Naa, kitten it! We take it anyway and just pretend they are not like spirit weapons. Then we fake something about a fuel system for marketing and that’s it. No one will notice for sure.

Dahkeus.8243:

miriforst.1290:

Dahkeus.8243:

People think that PvE will continue to be just like speed run, EZ-mode dungeons and they expect Function Gyro to be another clone of “Search and Rescue”, so they’re discounting it right off the bat.

But I expect people will be glad to have it when raids come out…

And in PvP, I fear it may be something so OP that it gets nerfed. I mean, being able to instantly stability stomp, regardless of any CC or distance from an enemy may not leave enough room for counterplay. Course, this may just make stealth rezzes that much more important.

I think people expect that if the new content is so hard that it becomes useful, its in an environment where it will be useless/heavily neutered. Situations like “I cant revive you but my gyro can!” require the gyro to actually handle whatever hazards making you unable to do it yourself. Of course there is a trait that gives you both stability when you start your revival, but then give that trait the 30 sec cooldown instead of the gyro.

I really don’t buy that though. It’s not supposed to be a guaranteed, perfect rez, regardless of how much bad AoE your ally died in and it doesn’t need to be in order to be a clutch ability. If it was, it would pretty much just be a warbanner on a 30 second cooldown without the cost of your elite skill slot.

It will double your rez speed, allowing you to rez before bad stuff lands or at least allow you to rez if there’s bad stuff between you and the ally, but not directly on top of the ally.

The thing is, 30 seconds cooldown is still a bit much for such a niche mechanic no?

Think of our mechanic distributed over the course of the fight, while others might have a more even distribution of special mechanics which remains useful in a manner of different roles (like continuum shift allowing both defensive and offensive play in other ways than F pressing), ours is only available in very special situations. Then it needs to compensate for not being available during the rest of the fight. Another thing is that as far as we know (they haven’t actually demonstrated it, probably because its not even implemented properly) you can not choose when to activate it? That means that we will waste a lot of gyros when we do not need it and then have them under cooldown in situations where they do matter.

I like the idea of the mechanic, but it needs to be very strong or at least polished.

And its not close enough to a “free” warbanner to be that afraid of improving it. And the slot it occupies is our specialization mechanic + another minor trait (outside of the first minor). Its more of a free single target elixir R toss on a shorter cooldown but which does not clear conditions, nor serve as a field, got shorter range and is destructible as well as crowd controllable, meaning it can’t be used in skirmishes where pressure is going out reliably. Or it can be used in pvp and wvw to hopefully land a stomp against enemies who got a down state vulnerable against stability (if you add another trait), if the enemy is not in an area where splash damage or an ally is nearby, meaning out of the actual combat. It will be fun to gatestomp eles in wvw ill grant you that though.

So i think we can still improve it in ways without having it end up a free warbanner. Making it not port but originate at the engineer, decrease cooldown and increase range would be a start. It would even synergize with our super speed.

Are people really complaining about the lack of use of the Scrapper in a PVE environment?

It’s pretty obvious that it was designed to fix what the Engineer was lacking : support and survivability. Not give it another way to DPS. We have grenades, we have condis, we have plenty of damage options. What we lack is a concrete way to be of use to a group, and a concrete way to stay alive against conditions and focus-fire. That is what the Scrapper gives us.

We are discussing the specialization primary mechanics use in all gamemodes.

If anythings over the top on the scrapper the function gyro would be the least of the problems (*cough*hammer*cough).

Ging.6485:

Are people really complaining about the lack of use of the Scrapper in a PVE environment?

It’s pretty obvious that it was designed to fix what the Engineer was lacking : support and survivability. Not give it another way to DPS. We have grenades, we have condis, we have plenty of damage options. What we lack is a concrete way to be of use to a group, and a concrete way to stay alive against conditions and focus-fire. That is what the Scrapper gives us.

I don’t mean to burst your bubble but with the way PvE works there is a golden rule:

If you aren’t doing damage, you are effectively useless. No one wants the full cleric guardian to show up and “heal” everyone while slowing the group to a crawl because someone is hitting for 400 damage.

Guess what the Scrapper doesn’t do? Yep. Damage. And what is it DESIGNED to do? Yep. Tank. It’s a PvP spec, designed to be a boring stunbunker.

If you still aren’t convinced. Look at the “new mechanic”. A ranged stomp and rez. Lets look at a list all the applications a ranged stomp/rez has in PvE:

1.
2.
3.
4. Killing those toxic Sylvari that showed up that one time in an event that will never show up again.
5.
6. Picking little Tim up off the ground when he doesn’t dodge a oneshot.

Scrapper is anet forcing their esports game mode on the second-least popular profession. It is also their second attempt at balancing turrets. Furthermore, it doesn’t even add anything new, neither to the class or the game. Gyros are either boring and passive (50% less damage, poor healing) or an underwhelming active. (whirling and counter-intuitive stealth). I laugh every time they say “fuel system”. It’s not some complex system, its a DURATION for the love of god drop the act.

But yeah whatever back to Grenades I guess (Which still apply vuln faster than the hammer does)