Guild Wars 2

would people accept a high damage dealer Scrapper for raids? I know the engie “role” is condi damage, but as a scrapper I would like to gear up for high damage, but im afraid I wont have a place for raiding :/

I’m in a raid group, albeit a casual one, and they allow me to play as a power scrapper. I have been trying to defend the power scrapper for a long time as I feel it’s a viable DPS choice, it’s also one that is very enjoyable to play.

There was and for the most part, a huge stigma that all Engineers should be condition damage as it’s simply the best. Though this information has been disproved through further theory crafting and number crunching.

I fear a lot of people don’t understand why you wouldn’t want to play condineer due to it’s popularity and fail to understand that some people just don’t find it fun.

I will link a post I made earlier and pay attention to the second reply, it answers a lot of misconceptions, I will also link the repliers work. as I feel he did an exceptional job.

Damage difference post : https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/Engi-Scrapper-Condi-or-Power-difference/first#post6023402

Research post : https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/All-Skills-Damage-for-Power-and-Condi-3/first#post6006236

once this information comes out more wide spread then power scrappers should find a place in some groups. though expect some resistance in pugs that will not give you the benefit of the doubt.

Yes. Just because there is resistance doesn’t mean that you should fear being completely left out.

eduardo.1436:

would people accept a high damage dealer Scrapper for raids? I know the engie “role” is condi damage, but as a scrapper I would like to gear up for high damage, but im afraid I wont have a place for raiding :/

I’m assuming that when you say scrapper you mean power scrapper, and not just the typical condi build but with scrapper over tools? Condi scrapper is pretty common and often is preferable in the VG and sabetha fights.

As far as power scrapper goes, there really isn’t anything wrong with it. It’s just not quite the best at any of the fights, so it rarely gets taken. In general people would just bring a thief or a guardian instead of a power scrapper because they deal better damage and have more than enough utility to make it through the fights. Against gorseval where one engineer is almost universally brought every time power scrapper is about the same as condi DPS wise, but condi has the advantage of being able to use inventions as its last trait line for extra team healing.

I ran power scrapper for my raid groups full clear a couple weeks ago and it worked great, and I wouldn’t have any issue bringing one personally. But we also have a really solid group and we never have issues with people trying out weird kitten. But yeah I would imagine that the pug mentality is a little less favorable for using power engi, since when you become a power class you have to compete with the high DPS classes ele/thief and have to be more useful than the perma prot from a guardian. Function gyro is pretty good, but so is not dying in the first place =P

Wahooooo!!! Ziggy here!

(Long post i know, but worth reading!)

You summoned me! =^._.^= You should check out the links Bwadark.2519 posted in his post above:

Bwadark.2519:

Damage difference post : https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/Engi-Scrapper-Condi-or-Power-difference/first#post6023402

Research post : https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/All-Skills-Damage-for-Power-and-Condi-3/first#post6006236

I’m the creator of the research post and I will give you further informations once I’ve got them.

And yea I totally agree with everything Bwadark.2519 said!

What I can tell you is that power Scrapper is awesome and every single good engineer out there should carry a power and a condi gear with him!!! Against Sabby I managed to get 22k DpS with power, 24k DpS with condi. What this means:

Sabby is the meatbag, so these are meatbag numbers. Sabby has 2597 armor (heavy).

Against Gorseval the numbers are approximately the same. I’d say condi will be a bit better since you have pauses (updraft / elite spirits) between, wich favors condi. However, you will use Slick Shoes then, wich reduces the condi dps to ashes compared to Power. Power has a solid auto attack, so your DpS will be like 20k (meatbag DpS), whereas condi will be around 16-18k. So you only will use condi if you play “No-Updraft”, brings you back to the Sabby meatbag numbers.

Against Vale Guardian you only need 2 (!) really good (!!) condi engis. They deal really low dps against Vale itself, that’s why you put them to green field duty. Any additional Engi above 2 should play power for max DpS. You’ll still need 3 condis with casuals tough, or simply put the warr to red for might (works perfectly fine).
Vale Guardian only has 1910 armor (light) wich basicly means +30% power damage. So yea you’ll get almost 30k DpS with power in the FIRST phase. Moving will naturally cripple anyones DpS, but condi gets a huge hit in their faces with all their fields they rely on, while power still nearly can sustain the normal damage.

What most of the pugs don’t understand is WHY you do something. They copycat sites like Metabattle.com without hesitation or any second toughts.

I don’t want to say those sites are generally bad, they arent! But it’s important to understand WHY exactly you want a condi engi in your team. Answer: only red add in first place! And secondary it’s about max damage.

So after semi-famous self-appointed experts cough DnT cough spread the words of how glorious and almighty the condi engi compared to the power scrapper was, most people (not everyone!) blindly believed them and called it meta without thinking about it any further. This is also the moment when new engi players started to exist, with no expirience whatso ever, especially not about power builds. The veteran engis most likely knew better tough.

I mean sure you need condi for the red add and you need cc wich the engi is expert in aswell. So you obviously pick a condi engi, since we also have max condi dps. But many important factors have been ignored, factors like:

• alacrity uptime / nerf
• quickness uptime -> better auto attack
• change of “meta” build for power engi
• armor of the target
• movement and mechanics of the target
• loss of a kit (gorseval slick shoes)
• 10 man raid = more conditions = better ratios for power scrapper
• new hammer and new traits

and so on.

So, would people accept a high damage dealer Scrapper for raids? Maybe not yet, but if they don’t – that’s fine because it saves you time by not playing with most likely bad players anyway. If you got expirienced and intelligent allies in your team – they will allow it.

If you got questions or doubts, just go ahead and ask! I’m here to provide you with all the information you need! Kits, builds, things to do etc etc.

Greez!
- Ziggy

Thats truth. Power scrappy have more better trade off utility then condi (tested myself on gorsy).
And yea, metabattle is only help to give you build, which you will improve. I change in condi build adrenal implantant fot kinetic battery (double incendiary ammo) and have cool results. (About 600-1k dps increase)

Yea KB over AI is one of the best examples. Another one is the grenade trait that is a must have for condi, especially against Vale. The alternative to “max dps” is an illusion and only 1.25% dps increase. If you hit 1 nade skill more thanks to grenadier you already won.

Very nice summary Ziggs! I completely aggree. I personally really like tanking on a Power Scrapper. Advantage is that you dont haven to dodge every time on blue since you can cast your Hammer 4. Experienced groups accepted me as a tank. And its better than guard tank at least (sorry DnT but your guard tank has some utterly low dps). I reach around 19K dps on VG. This can increase depending on your healer. With a Very good healer you barely neef toughness, making you able to take better stats.

Yea you ~can~ do that, but for most efficiency you should let a rev or mes tank. Especially Mes doesn’t lose any damage at all, or rather … barely :P

It doesn’t matter how much % of their personal dps is lost, it only matters how much flat group dps is lost.

Very true zigg Im not saying its optimal, its Just very viable. And thats what alot of people tend to confuse these days. They want the “perfect” composition to save a few minutes. I rather have fun I think this is one of the things where socalled “elitism” comes from.
Anyway @ OP: my point is to find nice people and play what you like since you barely cant go wrong with any form of DPS/condi build

Agreed. Aslong as you don’t go full kitten (never go full kitten) and play with turrets only, you’ll most likely be fine – hell I even healed once with engi at Sabby – WITH MEDKIT Q_Q xD

DPS=/= Power damage.
DPS applies both to Condi and Power Builds.

Haha zigg! Turrets are amazing!!!cough

What stats would I be looking for for a power scrapper build? I’ve tried condi in the past, just couldn’t get into it. I’d love something that would be raid viable. Long as I’m not tanking (many, many MMO’s have proven I’m terrible as a tank).

Wahoo!!

TheScalyBard.8239:

What stats would I be looking for for a power scrapper build? I’ve tried condi in the past, just couldn’t get into it. I’d love something that would be raid viable. Long as I’m not tanking (many, many MMO’s have proven I’m terrible as a tank).

Why, Zerker of course! You can see the Skill List aswell suggested builds with stats in my thread. Shrapnel over Mortar would be a small DpS gain, but utility loss, just for your info.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/All-Skills-Damage-for-Power-and-Condi-3/first#post6006236

Today I was fighting Slothy and boy I have to say I was happy to see another place for power scrapper to bloom and be really useful for the team. Elixier Gun, Slick Shoes, Bulwark Gyro are all great skill you might want to use.

TL;DR: For Slothy power scrapper >>> condi engi.

Greez!
- Ziggy

Xyonon.3987:

Today I was fighting Slothy and boy I have to say I was happy to see another place for power scrapper to bloom and be really useful for the team. Elixier Gun, Slick Shoes, Bulwark Gyro are all great skill you might want to use.

TL;DR: For Slothy power scrapper >>> condi engi.

Would like to confirm this and hopefully get more people to give it a try. Power scrapper is hands down better than condi engi against the sloth. Important points are:

1.) Hammer 4 blocks the entire shake attack
2.) Elixer gun (which is crap on condi) toolbelt stun break extremely valuable to get out of fear
3.) Elixer gun 5 group condi cleanse helps against poison
4.) Sloth has low toughness, so power has better DPS
5.) Hammer 2 can reflect slubling attacks, even if it’s only by accident
6.) Typical advantages of condi engi (more blinds/immobs, all ranged damage) are unimportant
7.) Often lots of downs – potentially in dangerous places – so function gyro sees a lot of use (only a minor point because condi scrapper is a thing)

I don’t think bulwark gyro is super amazing because your team should have more than enough projectile killing anyway, but it can be useful if your team is less experienced with avoiding the sloth’s attacks. I ran grenades/slick shoes/elixer gun and it worked out great.

Xyonon.3987:

Agreed. Aslong as you don’t go full kitten (never go full kitten) and play with turrets only, you’ll most likely be fine – hell I even healed once with engi at Sabby – WITH MEDKIT Q_Q xD

You get a big cookie for that one. I haven’t seen a medkit get pulled out in a LONG time.

Dinosaurs.8674:

4.) Sloth has low toughness, so power has better DPS

Preeeetty sure he’s got 2597 armor (heavy). But will test again.

Dinosaurs.8674:

6.) Typical advantages of condi engi (more blinds/immobs, all ranged damage) are unimportant

They have the same blinds except for that one pistol attack. And the ranged damage is pretty identical. Power can even deal more damage on ranged if you give him the tools to do so.

But everything else – I totally agree with you!

I’ll probably go with those skills (Power Scrapper):
Healing Turret || Bomb Kit | Slick Shoes | Elixier Gun || Mortar

How do you use the elixir gun with power focus?

Xyonon.3987:

Dinosaurs.8674:

4.) Sloth has low toughness, so power has better DPS

Preeeetty sure he’s got 2597 armor (heavy). But will test again.

Eh it’s possible you’re right, I was just judging it off of “my hits seem to deal more damage than usual in a raid” so I don’t have any testing to back it up.

Xyonon.3987:

Dinosaurs.8674:

6.) Typical advantages of condi engi (more blinds/immobs, all ranged damage) are unimportant

They have the same blinds except for that one pistol attack. And the ranged damage is pretty identical. Power can even deal more damage on ranged if you give him the tools to do so.

But everything else – I totally agree with you!

I’ll probably go with those skills (Power Scrapper):
Healing Turret || Bomb Kit | Slick Shoes | Elixier Gun || Mortar

If you use grenades/bombs/slick shoes you will have 2 more blinds, which doubles the number of blinds in your build. It’s also significant that the pistol and grenade blinds hit multiple targets from range. Even flamethrower has a blind if you’re running that instead, albeit a kittenty one.

I don’t want to get into an argument about power vs condi damage at range because it’s not relevant to this thread, so I will just say that I don’t agree with the claim that power and condi ranged damage is “pretty identical”, but you’ve also done a lot of testing so hey maybe I’m wrong.

I ran grenades over bomb kit because it’s often tough to be in a position to lay a bomb that will actually hit. It turns out that standing in front of the sloth is generally a good way to get killed, or at least have to dodge and lose dps. I guess I could have run short fuse, but I’m pretty sure the 7% damage loss isn’t worth it.

The whole reason to bring bomb kit over grenades on power is the autoattack, since grenade barrage is better than big ol bomb, shrapnel grenade is better than fire bomb, and poison grenade is better than the bomb auto. But if you can’t reliably hit the bomb autoattack then you might as well just be swinging the hammer, especially considering how spotty might can be when you move around as much as you do in that fight. Plus, there are some times when you are actually at range against the sloth and with your build you would be reduced to using non-4 elixer gun skills for dps (lol).

I stand by grenades/slick shoes/egun being the best power build against the sloth.

Ardid.7203:

How do you use the elixir gun with power focus?

Most of the egun skills are about utility and deal awful damage in general, but as it turns out Acid Bomb (egun 4) does a lot of damage. A whole lot. As in, it is the single highest damage engineer skill and only has a 15 second cooldown. You can also cancel its animation by pressing your weapon swap button, so you will not actually move backwards and can continue to DPS.

It got worse relative to other skills with HoT because having quickness from a mesmer is pretty common now, and since it’s a movement skill it doesn’t move any faster even with quickness. Without quickness it was also the single highest damage per cast time on any engineer skill, but even if you have permanent quickness its high damage and low cooldown make it a power engi staple.

The rest of egun is utility and deals crap DPS, but that doesn’t mean it’s bad. the toolbelt skill is a stun break, fumigate can remove up to 5 conditions from allies, super elixer removes 1 condition from yourself and allies and gives some extra healing. Even glob shot isn’t terrible since there is no other way for power scrapper to get swiftness, which is mostly irrelevant in raids but has been useful to me a couple times.

I dont see reason having slick shoes for sloth, his breakbar goes down pretty fast even without it.
Something like Bulwark Gyro, Elixir Gun and Flamethrower could work. Just dont use juggernaut since slublings corrupt stability into fear.

guildabd.6529:

I dont see reason having slick shoes for sloth, his breakbar goes down pretty fast even without it.
Something like Bulwark Gyro, Elixir Gun and Flamethrower could work. Just dont use juggernaut since slublings corrupt stability into fear.

Moving the sloth quickly is extremely important in that fight. Removing the break bar asap and getting him to the next mushroom station is vital to staying alive. What slick shoes gives you is a guarantee that the break bar will be removed almost immediately every single time. No worrying about players being out of position or screwing up their break rotation.

It also allows every other player in the squad to not use any break skills at all. Sure you gain DPS by having a third kit, but you also lose DPS when your guardians use hammer 4 + bane signet, rev uses glint elite, etc. Other players can just drop breaks from their bar altogether, so warrior brings battle standard, thief brings thieves’ guild, etc.

Obviously slick shoes isn’t a requirement by any means, and I doubt it is optimal for DPS. But especially when people are having trouble with so many other mechanics in the sloth fight it’s nice to have a guaranteed fast break every time.

And against sloth I don’t think bulwark is that useful. Most of the time in that fight people are either taking very little damage or they’re getting killed in one hit anyway. The reflect is also not great because you are already likely running a ridiculous number of other reflects. But if you’re team is still learning and maybe people aren’t keeping reflects up well, it’s a nice thing to have just in case.

Flamethrower I think is also not great for power because the sloth moves around so much. You will pretty much never get a good duration napalm off, and it’s not worth it just for flamethrower 2 and incendiary ammo. I’d probably run bulwark gyro over this even, lol.

If I were dropping slick shoes I would probably just do the typical 3 kit thing and go grenades/egun/bombs.

Dinosaurs.8674:

If I were dropping slick shoes I would probably just do the typical 3 kit thing and go grenades/egun/bombs.

Couldn’t agree more with you on this one.

And pretty much on everything else you said in the last few comments Especially about the thing about “why to pick slick shoes”. It’s all about party dps, not personal dps.

What was that about boon corruption? :O I didn’t even notice this since we perma reflected with 2 Mes xP Can anyone explain?