Guild Wars 2

hi folks!

first of all sorry for my english. i just think the response in english forums is much better than elswhere. and there are more devs watching

well, i want to discuss about the shot rate of pistol compared to rifle or compared to other classes. the dmg output (rifle) is another thing which should not be discussed here.

in my understanding a pistol should have a much higher fire rate than the rifle. since the beginning when i tested both i thought about that. when i first faced a shortbow-ranger (imo short/longbow is a good comparison to pistol/rifle) and after that a pistol-thief i really felt like being pranked by anet. not talking about the ridiculous dmg output of thieves.
the skill description says 3/4 on rifle and 1/2 on pistol for auto-attack-1 but it feels to be exactly the same and in my opinion it really shouldn’t be.

so what do you guys think?
am i totally wrong and should stfu? i guess not

looking forward reading your opinion

regards
kito

I agree. It is a problem “in game”, that effect the damage comparison at times. I am not certain if it actually registers to the servers as we see it though.

Pistol exotic weapon damage. 876-1029=952 av damage.
Rifle exotic wd. 986-1205=1095 av damage.
Shortbow 905-1000 =952 av damage
Longbow 920-1080 = 1000 av damage

Thief short bow 1 is .85s. =1120 average weapon dps
Pistol 1 is .85s. = 1120 average weapon dps

Engi rifle is .85s. = 1288 av weapon dps.
Pistol 1 is .85s. =1120 average weapon dps

Ranger shortbow is .5 =1904 av weapon dps
Longbow is 1.25s = 800 av weapon dps

Warrior rifle is .85s = 1288 av weapon dps.
Longbow is 1.25s = 800 av weapon dps.

I have no explanation for this inconsistency.

Of note. Skill coefficients effect the total outcome.
Singular high 1 hits of rifle, favor long cooldown skills.
Rifle is very high in 1 hit, and dps. The highest raw damage, means things like leap and shrapnel hit hard.
While shortbows very fast attack speed, means its raw auto attack dps is extremely high. Probably the highest in game.

Some weapons are just flat out better then others, due to this.

Casia you forget the tratits for the difrent classes in yor calculation.

not really. traits, like skill coeffs, come in after.

I’m not really talking overall balance. more direct basic weapon balance. which seems to be not balanced.

Skills and then traits can be made to counteract this of course. But is basically a bandaid then.

Look at grenades.
920 average damage.
.85s attack speed on g1. This gives us an average weapon dps of 1082.
Way lower then rifle, pistol, etc.

but then yes, skill coeffs come into play. .5 per grenade. 1.5 skill coeff with just grenadier. (1 without) And as you say, +10% for that trait. (and .45 in spvp per)

Comparatively speaking.
Rifle is .65 on skill 1.
Pistol is .35 on skill 1. 2s bleed.

(Thief pistol 1 is .4 and 4s bleed.)

I can understand some variation. Shortbow has a tight damage range, but the same average dps as pistols, (and all 1 hand weapons)

But looking at rifle for a moment vs pistol.
r1=.65*1288 average=837*10% trait=921 skill/weapon coeff scaling into your power
p1=.35*1120=392 skill/weapon coeff scaling into your power.
g1=1.5*1082=1623*10% trait=1785 skill/weapon coeff
Staggering no?

coated bullets does offer a larger damage buff then 10% rifle trait. Effectively +100%, and often 200%, to auto attack. one rifle AA is stronger then a coated bullets double hit. But not stronger then a triple hit.
This seems as though p1 is balanced around having coated bullets. Which is really odd, and frankly a poor design choice.
Alternatively, pistol 1 is supposed to be .5s.

Grenades are an outlier. no other weapon seems to have a skill coeff that is out of line, with the assumption that weapon dps is even. So weapons with high dps, almost always win.
Or in the case of shortbow on rangers, that attack speed is an outlier, making it, much like grenades for us.

A Thife with pistol do way much more damage then Engineer, a Warrior with Rifle do more damage then Engineer with rifle.

Ps sry se i missed what it was about.

Casia.4281:

not really. traits, like skill coeffs, come in after.

I’m not really talking overall balance. more direct basic weapon balance. which seems to be not balanced.

Skills and then traits can be made to counteract this of course. But is basically a bandaid then.

Look at grenades.
920 average damage.
.85s attack speed on g1. This gives us an average weapon dps of 1082.
Way lower then rifle, pistol, etc.

but then yes, skill coeffs come into play. .5 per grenade. 1.5 skill coeff with just grenadier. (1 without) And as you say, +10% for that trait. (and .45 in spvp per)

Comparatively speaking.
Rifle is .65 on skill 1.
Pistol is .35 on skill 1. 2s bleed.

(Thief pistol 1 is .4 and 4s bleed.)

I can understand some variation. Shortbow has a tight damage range, but the same average dps as pistols, (and all 1 hand weapons)

But looking at rifle for a moment vs pistol.
r1=.65*1288 average=837*10% trait=921 skill/weapon coeff scaling into your power
p1=.35*1120=392 skill/weapon coeff scaling into your power.
g1=1.5*1082=1623*10% trait=1785 skill/weapon coeff
Staggering no?

coated bullets does offer a larger damage buff then 10% rifle trait. Effectively +100%, and often 200%, to auto attack. one rifle AA is stronger then a coated bullets double hit. But not stronger then a triple hit.
This seems as though p1 is balanced around having coated bullets. Which is really odd, and frankly a poor design choice.
Alternatively, pistol 1 is supposed to be .5s.

Grenades are an outlier. no other weapon seems to have a skill coeff that is out of line, with the assumption that weapon dps is even. So weapons with high dps, almost always win.
Or in the case of shortbow on rangers, that attack speed is an outlier, making it, much like grenades for us.

Thank you Casia, every one of your posts is always concise and eye opening. I’d like to point out that while a double pistol hit with coated bullets = 1 rifle AA. The rifle AA also Pierces. I’ve noticed the same or better DPS hitting multiple mobs this way as with using grenade 1.

I should have also pointed out.
Ranger short bow has a .4 skill coeff, and a 4s bleed.
(100% bleed on crits, not 30% ha)

.4*1904=762 Interestingly, that is less then rifle still. (2 4second bleeds per second however, probably makes up for it, if I did that math)
Seriously, engi rifle auto attack is really good. Even pierces without traiting.

thx for the info casia!

but as mentioned i didnt the dmg to be discussed

Casia.4281:

Engi rifle is .85s. = 1288 av weapon dps.
Pistol 1 is .85s. =1120 average weapon dps

so they have the same attack rate…

i didnt get the point with the coeff though, cause there are no traits affecting the attack speed of rifle or pistol?

I’m not sure I understand Casia’s post either, but…

First, just so we’re on the same page, coefficients determine how much damage you get per point of Power. A Coeff of .5 means each point of power is .5 more damage. Thus, for example, every grenade you throw gets +1 damage/hit for every 2 Power you have.

When determining DPS, however, attack speed is important. Take two hypothetical attacks:

-One does 1000 base damage with a Coeff of .5
-The other does 400 base damage with a Coeff of .3

One of these is clearly better than the other. If, however, the first attack has a 1-second attack rate and the second attack has a .5-second attack rate, things change.

-The first attack deals 1000 base DPS and gets .5 DPS per point of Power.
-The second attack deals 800 base DPS and gets .6 DPS per point of Power.

Which means one attack is better at low power, but the other scales better.

[Edit]: … which brings up why pistols having a slower-than-advertised attack speed is such an issue.

Townopolis.3607:

I’m not sure I understand Casia’s post either, but…

First, just so we’re on the same page, coefficients determine how much damage you get per point of Power. A Coeff of .5 means each point of power is .5 more damage. Thus, for example, every grenade you throw gets +1 damage/hit for every 2 Power you have.

When determining DPS, however, attack speed is important. Take two hypothetical attacks:

-One does 1000 base damage with a Coeff of .5
-The other does 400 base damage with a Coeff of .3

One of these is clearly better than the other. If, however, the first attack has a 1-second attack rate and the second attack has a .5-second attack rate, things change.

-The first attack deals 1000 base DPS and gets .5 DPS per point of Power.
-The second attack deals 800 base DPS and gets .6 DPS per point of Power.

Which means one attack is better at low power, but the other scales better.

[Edit]: … which brings up why pistols having a slower-than-advertised attack speed is such an issue.

Damage is:
skill*weapon*power/(toughness+defense)=damage

so power and skill each multiply into weapon as a %.
Or you can swap them around, hence the “weapon+skill” coeff I cited.

A skill of .65. rifle 1 for example
lets say you are using a rifle that hits for 1000 every time. (see “steady” pvp gear for flat values. 125 on those)
If you had 1 power, then you would deal 650 damage before armor.
2power, 1300
2000 power, 1300000 damage. (ever wonder why you hit those rats, etc for 100k?)

now, toughness+defense. defense is your armor on gear. 1064 on medium. toughness is toughness. 916 base. =1980 in medium armor with no +toughness.
2600 is the value the “heavy” golems have. As well as what your tooltips are based on.
1300000/2600=500 damage. sounds more reasonable again huh. ha.

rifle average hit is 1095. What Im saying is, damage is calculated as 2000power times 1095 weapon damage.
While pistol is 952. so yes, power clearly scaling into 1095 more then 952.
For skills 2-5 this is very important. As it does mean they will hit harder for rifle. Unless, pistols skills have higher skill coeffs to make up for it.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/Engineer-skill-coeffs/first#post771054
^ they do not. Even with conditions included.

Attack speed is only relevant for skill 1. granted skill 1 is like 80% of your damage. So it is important. Having a lower weapon damage, and low coeff could be made up for by having a high rate of attack.
Ranger shortbow as the example. or in the case of ranger longbow, show why that is terrible.

Ahh. Okay, I get it now. Thanks for the second explanation.