Guild Wars 2

LOL at people that got outplayed by turret engi and blame the build. If you could not fight a turret engi you also won’t be able to fight a celestial rifle engi or any decent build.

Wonder what will be the next target for the bad players asking for nerf. I bet it’ll be shoutbow warriors or longbow rangers.

try to fight 4 mesmers in pvp then you have allot of pain

ea make so 3 clones x4 players most use GS to
then you see more mesmers in the map then you can count XD

talk about OP :P

xDudisx.5914:

LOL at people that got outplayed by turret engi and blame the build. If you could not fight a turret engi you also won’t be able to fight a celestial rifle engi or any decent build.

Wonder what will be the next target for the bad players asking for nerf. I bet it’ll be shoutbow warriors or longbow rangers.

Exactly this. I ran turrets and killed everyone 1v1, not because of the build but because I was playing it. If you thought I was a nightmare on a turret engi… Come see my Cele rifle you whining kittens. Anet ruined an effective build that was no more annoying than shoutbow or SD thief or 2 spam RTW ranger but keep calling the build cheese you all deserve each other. I’ll be the one laughing as I outplay you on your cheese build.

Sidizen.9048:

I laugh at anyone who tries to defend Turret Engineer and think that this balance patch was an unneeded change. I quit PvP because of Turrets. They were awful and made the PvP so boring and annoying.

Not even the turret players deny that the build was too powerful.
But we want to see a meaningful change, which balances the game, not a change, which is made to appease the masses by burning a witch at the stake and simply removing turret builds from the equation completely.

People played turrets because the stale celestial meta allowed them to. Turrets were the only build effective against the celestial meta, while the rigid celestial meta held all those builds back, which were actually good against turrets.

You couldn’t make a better textbook example for a strong meta choice up, even if you tried. If you had so much problems with turrets in the old meta, here are some outlines:

You could have run a trapper build, which could just casually walk onto the point and watch the turreteer keel over.
Trapper builds were a strong meta choice against turreteers, but get absolutely mauled by shoutbows and do horribly against celestial builds due to bad stat choices(rabid -> die to conditions, carrion -> die to crits…) and celestial builds having plenty of cleanses.

You could have run a power ranger and swap in a drake, whenever there were two or more engineers on the enemy team. Power rangers can quickly clear turrets from a discance, cap the point and then never allow the turreteer back on point again.
Power rangers got invalidated by the meta, because healy, bursty balls to the walls builds with incidental condition and AoE spam and plenty of boon supports are the norm. The meta revolves around builds, which just run at a weaker enemy and roll over them with their superior stats.

You could have run a shatter mesmer, killed the turreteer on point and never allow him back.
But the meta revolves around builds with lots of cleave, AoE spam and incidental conditions. A class with no decent condi removal, reliant on low hitpoint clones won’t thrive in such an environment… And well, then there is thieves. Killing mesmers since 2013.

You could have run a powermancer or terrormancer. While the necro can’t reliably take down turreteers in a 1v1 on point, he can flush the point quickly and decisively in a 2v1 situation.
Necros are… You know the drill.

So now come again and tell me, that turrets were the real problem.

Vieux P.1238:

Shadelang.3012:

Hence why they die faster than ANY non sacrifice based pet in the game now.

I guess you don’t play a mesmer or you would of known that clones & illusions upon summoning dies upon hit by any aoe, condi or direct damage. & that’s b4 sacrifice. So i don’t know why you complaining. FYI: Even now, turrets have more life then clones.

I didn’t know my weapon skills could summon turrets. Or that the skills go on cooldown while the turrets are active so I can deploy them again after they’re destroyed.

At least you could have compared them to phantasms, not kittening clones.

Sidizen.9048:

I quit PvP because of Turrets.

I’m going to wear this post as a badge of pride.

You brought this argument upon yourself – they shouldn’t have been compared to turrets to start with.
I mean, illusions can be even created by an autoattack chain (http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ether_Clone), let alone proper weapon skills and utilities (and you get two weapon sets to do that, anyway).
Even the utility phantasms have cooldowns as long as 25s. That’s half of the cooldown of a rocket turret.
Illusions get basically mass-produced.
Turrets cannot.
And that’s all.

RIP turret build, RIP supply crate..
yes, we use one and only dead viable elite.

You can also reduce illusion cooldowns up to 40% depending on choice of traits, but yeah. That’s not important. You’re talking about skills ranging anywhere from 5s-30s CDs that you get a minimum of 4 of no matter what combinations of weapons you take compared to skills that only ever exist in utility slots with 20-50s cooldowns that only get reduced if you don’t detonate them for a small Knockback (or if the player doesn’t attack them into destruction himself).

I’ve been noticing the changes to this immediately in the Silverwastes. Supply Drop is now just a stun and second heal at this point.

GrandHaven.1052:

Please learn to use healing turret, its not meant to be dropped and left out.
Drop, overcharge pickup is efficient and much better in every way.

How well does that work for the supply crate healing turret?

RabbitUp.8294:

Vieux P.1238:

Shadelang.3012:

Hence why they die faster than ANY non sacrifice based pet in the game now.

I guess you don’t play a mesmer or you would of known that clones & illusions upon summoning dies upon hit by any aoe, condi or direct damage. & that’s b4 sacrifice. So i don’t know why you complaining. FYI: Even now, turrets have more life then clones.

I didn’t know my weapon skills could summon turrets. Or that the skills go on cooldown while the turrets are active so I can deploy them again after they’re destroyed.

At least you could have compared them to phantasms, not kittening clones.

Lol, or the fact that there’s a trait to doge roll and leave a turret behind

shion.2084:

GrandHaven.1052:

Please learn to use healing turret, its not meant to be dropped and left out.
Drop, overcharge pickup is efficient and much better in every way.

How well does that work for the supply crate healing turret?

If you were expecting the supply crate healing turret to provide substantial, sustained healing, you were always going to be disappointed.

I hadn’t actually realized any change was made last night. I’m not a turret engi, so it’s rather humorous for me tha tI’m just finding out now that my healing turret and supply crate were suck-ified a bit and I hadn’t realized it during my pvp game

MattyP.6954:

shion.2084:

GrandHaven.1052:

Please learn to use healing turret, its not meant to be dropped and left out.
Drop, overcharge pickup is efficient and much better in every way.

How well does that work for the supply crate healing turret?

If you were expecting the supply crate healing turret to provide substantial, sustained healing, you were always going to be disappointed.

Agreed, but my point shows that clearly some turrets were originally story-wise meant to be left out. So it is incorrect to say that there aren’t situations in which this was intended.

For those upset about the changes to turrets:

Well every forum needs a troll I suppose.

But who said anything about tears, I think it was generally accepted that while not actually effective in high level play, it was too easy a build to play against weak non-coordinated teams.

However the fix in question is contradictory with the justifications given for it by the developers, and quite frankly seems a bit of a cop out. They didn’t make a more interesting and skill requiring turret build option, they simply removed a unique form of play style all together. The fix is further poorly executed that yet in doing this they impacted people who don’t even play turret builds, but simply make use of one for a healing skill.

Note : I have never played a turret engi and have been on the receiving side of the pin ball effect so I get your trolling inclinations if this happens frequently to you. And I understand your impotent rage at not being able to deal with the terrifying turret engi of old.

I have not felt any loss of effectiveness with my healing turret or my crate.

Gern.2978:

I have not felt any loss of effectiveness with my healing turret or my crate.

But there is an objective loss of effectiveness from both of those things. The healing turret will die faster, sometimes even before the overcharge can be used, and the crate turrets already couldn’t be overcharged but will still die faster. This is highly visible even in PvE, where turrets were hardly every targeted.

I don’t know if anybody ever complained about healing turret or supply crate being OP, especially since most engineers didn’t take any traits that would make either of those two things ridiculous in the first place.

Are you doing PvP Gern? Haven’t you noticed that your crate almost instantly becomes a pile of bandages if you drop it on point and the other team has a few folks there or some wells? Used to be you might get off a net shot as a follow up to the stun… or at least something…

It’s true. I still se people running turret engis, only now it’s just said. I grenade their turrets, they die, then it’s me and an poor engi trying to survive with nothing but his rifle. Lol

Ok so it’s kinda funny too. Not sure why some people are still hanging on to this build.

Shaogin.2679:

It’s true. I still se people running turret engis, only now it’s just said. I grenade their turrets, they die, then it’s me and an poor engi trying to survive with nothing but his rifle. Lol

Ok so it’s kinda funny too. Not sure why some people are still hanging on to this build.

It’s almost as if they might genuinely like the build for one reason or another. Maybe they just really like turrets.

Anymras.5729:

Shaogin.2679:

It’s true. I still se people running turret engis, only now it’s just said. I grenade their turrets, they die, then it’s me and an poor engi trying to survive with nothing but his rifle. Lol

Ok so it’s kinda funny too. Not sure why some people are still hanging on to this build.

It’s almost as if they might genuinely like the build for one reason or another. Maybe they just really like turrets.

You’d have to genuinely love turrets or just be clinging to hope to play a turret build in it’s current state. It’s like punishing yourself in PvP for no reason.

Good grief. QQ more turret abusers, i for one welcome this change.

Varylk.5628:

Good grief. QQ more turret abusers, i for one welcome this change.

Users, abusers where the players bothering to place them midair.
Otherwise any meta build is abusing something that is effective.

When it comes to the purpose of defending a point from (y/s)olocappers it had a purpose, in the same way that a scout in tf2 didn’t waltz straight onto a point filled with sentries and stickybombs, if thieves have a hard time with turrets for example its a natural counter to their ability to zip across the map and cap any undefended ones in the blink of an eye. Its fragile speedster vs mighty glacier.

Now the fact that they didn’t scale is unfortunate, and i would prefer if they where deployable kits with a larger number of skills and tricks, meaning that the engineer still had the superior firepower as long as you are on his point and playing by his rules because i do like to have power over my own abilities. People also seem to strongly dislike anything that doesn’t keel over and die after the first rotation is done, thats why the anger cannon is now back on tracking celengis and celes and so on.

how to fix turrets:
- delete them
- redesign them as minions
- give us little boom bots + burning on suicide (flame / rocket turret), a shock-spider (replaces net-turret), some steam-golem (replaces thumper) and a medi-bot (healing turret). The elite could be a bigger steam golem with a cannon and hammer-arm (rocket + thumper), or instead of an elite we just get a flamethrower on wheels/legs as another utility-skill
- all minions have overcharges similar to the turrets they represent
- all minions are still blast-finishers on explode.

pros:
- more mobility
cons:
- stupid minion AI (your choice)

There you go, you have crit-able minions who can suffer from conditions, and kinda mirror the necro minion-master.
Would I personally like it? Nope.
Would it fix exploitive placement? yes.
Would it be more skillful than current turrets? arguably
Would some minions n a build spice it up? Both steam-golems could be interesting. or boom-bots if they profit from explosives-traits. the mobile flame-thrower will be okay aoe-cleave I guess.

Shaogin.2679:

Anymras.5729:

Shaogin.2679:

It’s true. I still se people running turret engis, only now it’s just said. I grenade their turrets, they die, then it’s me and an poor engi trying to survive with nothing but his rifle. Lol

Ok so it’s kinda funny too. Not sure why some people are still hanging on to this build.

It’s almost as if they might genuinely like the build for one reason or another. Maybe they just really like turrets.

You’d have to genuinely love turrets or just be clinging to hope to play a turret build in it’s current state. It’s like punishing yourself in PvP for no reason.

Turrets are part of why I bought the game in the first place. Never touched PvP, but used Turrets in PvE from Day 1 to…well, when they made them vulnerable to conditions and crits.

miriforst.1290:

When it comes to the purpose of defending a point from (y/s)olocappers it had a purpose, in the same way that a scout in tf2 didn’t waltz straight onto a point filled with sentries and stickybombs, if thieves have a hard time with turrets for example its a natural counter to their ability to zip across the map and cap any undefended ones in the blink of an eye. Its fragile speedster vs mighty glacier.

Now the fact that they didn’t scale is unfortunate, and i would prefer if they where deployable kits with a larger number of skills and tricks, meaning that the engineer still had the superior firepower as long as you are on his point and playing by his rules because i do like to have power over my own abilities. People also seem to strongly dislike anything that doesn’t keel over and die after the first rotation is done, thats why the anger cannon is now back on tracking celengis and celes and so on.

had to quote you for signature, i hope it’s ok. you nailed the attitude of so many players in these forums. they only run glass cannon and want everyone else to do the same so they can kill them easy. they complain about the ‘massive damage’ of celestial and bunker builds, which actually doesn’t exist. the damage feels massive because they are running a glass cannon build, a connection they just don’t make.

anet, please rename engi supply crate to bandages crate. thx

velhavn.7694:

anet, please rename engi supply crate to bandages crate. thx

[Tooltip : A box of bandages that stuns opponents on impact. Can cause random conditions. Combo Field: Blast]

Turrets that now die quickly? That remember me why there’s no more necro MM and guardian SW in spvp.

shion.2084:

Are you doing PvP Gern? Haven’t you noticed that your crate almost instantly becomes a pile of bandages if you drop it on point and the other team has a few folks there or some wells? Used to be you might get off a net shot as a follow up to the stun… or at least something…

Yes, I am PvPing. I have done quite a bit of PvP every day since the patch, and as I said: I haven’t noticed any less effectiveness in my Healing Turret or my crate, and I don’t use them any different than I ever have. I still put down my turret, over-charge it, and then either pick it up or blast the water field depending on the situation. I even do this in the middle of AOE fields and I am able to blast that water field or pick up my healing turret every single time.

As for my crate, I have yet to see any of the turrets from it die instantly, I also do not see any enemy turrets die instantly and I run a zerker build. They definitely die faster, but not instantly. I can always count on my crate to get off at least one or two blasts from the flame turret and the net turret.

I get the feeling that a lot of the people who complain about turrets “dying instantly” haven’t actually been playing with turrets in such situations, and are just repeating what they read on the forums. Either that or they have a sub-par computer/internet and there is enough delay that their healing turret is down too long and gets killed.

Gern.2978:

shion.2084:

Are you doing PvP Gern? Haven’t you noticed that your crate almost instantly becomes a pile of bandages if you drop it on point and the other team has a few folks there or some wells? Used to be you might get off a net shot as a follow up to the stun… or at least something…

Yes, I am PvPing. I have done quite a bit of PvP every day since the patch, and as I said: I haven’t noticed any less effectiveness in my Healing Turret or my crate, and I don’t use them any different than I ever have. I still put down my turret, over-charge it, and then either pick it up or blast the water field depending on the situation. I even do this in the middle of AOE fields and I am able to blast that water field or pick up my healing turret every single time.

As for my crate, I have yet to see any of the turrets from it die instantly, I also do not see any enemy turrets die instantly and I run a zerker build. They definitely die faster, but not instantly. I can always count on my crate to get off at least one or two blasts from the flame turret and the net turret.

I get the feeling that a lot of the people who complain about turrets “dying instantly” haven’t actually been playing with turrets in such situations, and are just repeating what they read on the forums. Either that or they have a sub-par computer/internet and there is enough delay that their healing turret is down too long and gets killed.

Sorry but not seeing what everyone else sees makes me think you fight in between points away from group situations. Supply crate gets completely destroyed leaving only banages.

Aidenwolf.5964:

Gern.2978:

shion.2084:

Are you doing PvP Gern? Haven’t you noticed that your crate almost instantly becomes a pile of bandages if you drop it on point and the other team has a few folks there or some wells? Used to be you might get off a net shot as a follow up to the stun… or at least something…

Yes, I am PvPing. I have done quite a bit of PvP every day since the patch, and as I said: I haven’t noticed any less effectiveness in my Healing Turret or my crate, and I don’t use them any different than I ever have. I still put down my turret, over-charge it, and then either pick it up or blast the water field depending on the situation. I even do this in the middle of AOE fields and I am able to blast that water field or pick up my healing turret every single time.

As for my crate, I have yet to see any of the turrets from it die instantly, I also do not see any enemy turrets die instantly and I run a zerker build. They definitely die faster, but not instantly. I can always count on my crate to get off at least one or two blasts from the flame turret and the net turret.

I get the feeling that a lot of the people who complain about turrets “dying instantly” haven’t actually been playing with turrets in such situations, and are just repeating what they read on the forums. Either that or they have a sub-par computer/internet and there is enough delay that their healing turret is down too long and gets killed.

Sorry but not seeing what everyone else sees makes me think you fight in between points away from group situations. Supply crate gets completely destroyed leaving only banages.

No, I know how to PvP. I make sure to fight on point (well, not right on point. Non-turret engineers have always been bad at fighting right on the point) Fighting between points is a waste of time.

Shadelang.3012:

Heimskarl that would work if theyd been designed with that in mind. But they weren’t. Neither there health or armor are designed with crits and condis in mind. Hence why they die faster than ANY non sacrifice based pet in the game now.

None of the other summons have large health pools. Ranger spirits have half the health of turrets unless traited for, even then half your turrets still have 50% more health than ranger spirits. Spirit build was nerfed long ago, you will get over it.

In my opinion Turrets should be something a bit different. Not an immobile pet, but a proxy.

Turrets need to be placed, then the Turret can be used for an effect. The effect will be applied from the Turret.
For example:
Net Turret is placed, the Net Turret skill becomes Fire Net. You trigger the turret to fire the net, and it will fire it at your currently selected target.

or

Thumper Turret does an AoE knockback/Knockdown/Stun. But it will trigger from the Thumper Turret when you tell it to trigger.

Turrets no longer autoattack. They are just proxies for a utility skill, and it’s up to the Engineer to use them properly and take things like los from the pov of the turret into consideration.
Following the example of the Thumper Turret, you can place in a choke without having to be near it and CC someone who comes through it.
Or place a Net Turret a bit hidden, making it less likely your opponent will dodge the net when you get the Turret to shoot it from an unexpected angle (while your opponent is focussing on you)

In return, Turrets are indestructable. Picking up a Turret reduces the cooldown by 100%, meaning you can immediatly place it again. This does not reset the cooldown of the Turret’s ability. It’s just to quickly reposition.
Detonating Turrets could remain, meaning you get a full cooldown obviously. Or it could be replaced with something else that also triggers from the Turret. Giving it two abilities you need to manage per Turret.

So, the Turret becomes a micro-intensive device that doesn’t really do anything without being directly told by the player to.

I’m not saying a nerf wasn’t needed.
But this is just ridiculous – leave some viability at least!
This is a full line of engi utility skills that now see absolutely no usee whatsoever, which is incredibly infuriating. Not only were turrets already nearly worthless in PvE and WvW, but now they’ve been taken out of PvP too.

I started playing engi 50% for the turrets. These things are meant to be -structures- that you can put down and leave to shoot. Not just “overload and then get blown up” things.
Turrets are useless now, and they need a buff back to viability. They needed a nerf, but turrets still need to be viable, which they arent currently.

Just make turrets immune to crits. Problem solved.

Spyritdragon.6048:

I’m not saying a nerf wasn’t needed.
But this is just ridiculous – leave some viability at least!
This is a full line of engi utility skills that now see absolutely no usee whatsoever, which is incredibly infuriating. Not only were turrets already nearly worthless in PvE and WvW, but now they’ve been taken out of PvP too.

I started playing engi 50% for the turrets. These things are meant to be -structures- that you can put down and leave to shoot. Not just “overload and then get blown up” things.
Turrets are useless now, and they need a buff back to viability. They needed a nerf, but turrets still need to be viable, which they arent currently.

That is a gross overstatement. Turrets are by no means useless, the fact that you still see plenty of turret engineers in SPvP who do just fine is a testament to that. The only thing that this nerf did was remove the AFK style, #1 attack spammer turreteers from PvP, leaving the ones who actively play and are smart about where and when they place down their turrets.

Turret Engineers can’t just slot in all 3 turrets, have no condi removal besides their heal, no stun breaks, no defensive utilities plus only using half their skills and expect to be effective. That’d be like making a condi ranger with Longbow and Greatsword then complaining when you can’t kill anyone. You’re purposefully making a hamstrung build then demanding it be brought up to the level of far more interactive builds. Turret engineers got by before just by their sheer tankiness making it usually not worth it to 1v1 them. You’ll have to oh I don’t know, slot in more utility instead of basically converting all your utility and toolbelt slots to minions. Switch in a kit, get a stunbreak, maybe split your traits up so you aren’t investing almost all of them in one turrety basket.

Gern.2978:

Spyritdragon.6048:

I’m not saying a nerf wasn’t needed.
But this is just ridiculous – leave some viability at least!
This is a full line of engi utility skills that now see absolutely no usee whatsoever, which is incredibly infuriating. Not only were turrets already nearly worthless in PvE and WvW, but now they’ve been taken out of PvP too.

I started playing engi 50% for the turrets. These things are meant to be -structures- that you can put down and leave to shoot. Not just “overload and then get blown up” things.
Turrets are useless now, and they need a buff back to viability. They needed a nerf, but turrets still need to be viable, which they arent currently.

That is a gross overstatement. Turrets are by no means useless, the fact that you still see plenty of turret engineers in SPvP who do just fine is a testament to that. The only thing that this nerf did was remove the AFK style, #1 attack spammer turreteers from PvP, leaving the ones who actively play and are smart about where and when they place down their turrets.

Everyone is constantly mentioning these “#1 Attack spammer turreteers”, but these guys were the easy ones to kill. That can’t possibly be the crux to any argument as to why they were nerfed the way they were. If anything, it was the better players behind a turret build that caused this grief. Any team with a player that goes AFK, even if they were a turret engineer, still would have likely lost. Overall though, and I know you’ve been disagreeing all thread about this, turrets are a lot easier to kill and therefore don’t do what they used to do; hold a point. It is now, more-so even than before, a build that relies on your opponents beings stupid and not killing either you or the rocket turret first. If they manage that then you lose faster now.

xDudisx.5914:

LOL at people that got outplayed by turret engi and blame the build. If you could not fight a turret engi you also won’t be able to fight a celestial rifle engi or any decent build.

That’s always been my line of thought. The turret nerfs will do nothing to stop the complaining because they’re going to get pwned by the same people who just go to metabattle or whatever. It’s what happens when one complains about a class they don’t really understand too much.

So the argument running around is that those engis that beat them will be forced to learn to play and pick a real b0uild. What happens when those real builds also faceroll them? Will people stay quiet? lol. Does anyone ever admit failure?

Also, what about other game modes where they were already useless? Nobody cares?

Finally, games should never be balanced at the skill floor.

Thank god, turret engi’s were the bane of pvp.

Streaks.5076:

Thank god, turret engi’s were the bane of pvp.

Odd. You said it was mesmers.

Seems like a QQ thread. Warrior is in no means OP. Their burst is easily negated if you know how to play, Thieves also are easy to counter but could use some tweaking to weaken Heartseeker though. If you want to complain about OP then complain about the Mesmers, because they’re the most frustrating class out right now.

Kupper.8074:

Turrets needed to be changed but the manner they did it was sloppy. The equivalent would be to remove the knockbacks/stuns from warrior hammer or remove rapid fir from Rangers.

Making a whole build “useless” is just lazy, but per usual for Anet balance.

So… removing the over-effectiveness of parts of a given weapon which allows for unskilled players to get incredibly potent results for no other reason than playing a specific build with no pertinence to the gear/stats they have?

They removed an incredible amount of cheese from the class. If hammer warrior didn’t have absurd damage on the CC, people would have to use the set smarter or use a different alternate. LB ranger is already sub-par in sPvP and the best players use sword mainhand because it offers better DPS, control, durability, and engages. Longbow range is okay, but the rest of the set is underwhelming and strictly speaking, burst damage or sheer durability are what in in PvP.

So basically what you described was a fair and reasonable effort to balance the classes due to obvious issues with a particular class being blatantly overpowered in the low/mid tiers while not detracting from the upper echelons of skilled play. I.E., improving general health of the game and shaping newer players into more advanced format-style fights.

Necrotize.2974:

Turret Engineers can’t just slot in all 3 turrets, have no condi removal besides their heal, no stun breaks, no defensive utilities plus only using half their skills and expect to be effective. That’d be like making a condi ranger with Longbow and Greatsword then complaining when you can’t kill anyone. You’re purposefully making a hamstrung build then demanding it be brought up to the level of far more interactive builds. Turret engineers got by before just by their sheer tankiness making it usually not worth it to 1v1 them. You’ll have to oh I don’t know, slot in more utility instead of basically converting all your utility and toolbelt slots to minions. Switch in a kit, get a stunbreak, maybe split your traits up so you aren’t investing almost all of them in one turrety basket.

^^^^This.

This sums up the argument of all the people who are upset about the turret changes.

Turrets in and of themselves are not useless, I haven’t had any problems with my healing turret since the patch. You can’t run full turrets with no other defensive utility and expect to be viable in SPvP, and there is nothing wrong with that.

DeceiverX.8361:

So… removing the over-effectiveness of parts of a given weapon which allows for unskilled players to get incredibly potent results for no other reason than playing a specific build with no pertinence to the gear/stats they have?

So, you made a list of reasons why turrets had to be addressed. None of them include “turrets were too hard to kill”.

Yet, this is what was changed. And in a manner that made turrets builds completely non-viable, which was the intention from the start. And that’s the problem here. Instead of trying to balance the skills, they gut them in a way no sane player would use them again.

You even said so yourself, turrets didn’t scale with the engineer’s stats. That was the best place to start balancing them.

RabbitUp.8294:

DeceiverX.8361:

So… removing the over-effectiveness of parts of a given weapon which allows for unskilled players to get incredibly potent results for no other reason than playing a specific build with no pertinence to the gear/stats they have?

So, you made a list of reasons why turrets had to be addressed. None of them include “turrets were too hard to kill”.

Yet, this is what was changed. And in a manner that made turrets builds completely non-viable, which was the intention from the start. And that’s the problem here. Instead of trying to balance the skills, they gut them in a way no sane player would use them again.

You even said so yourself, turrets didn’t scale with the engineer’s stats. That was the best place to start balancing them.

I’m assuming you’re referring to someone else about half of what I posted, because I never said anything about what was needed to make turrets viable and fair. I also never posted anything about turrets not scaling with the engineer’s stats. What I did post, was the mentioning that the argument I quoted was flawed on the sheer principle that if something is overpowered for a particular reason, and largely for one particular reason, and it results in stale gameplay or too high of a skill floor, a nerf is justified on the pretense that it will change the game to be played for the better, and in the case of engineers or turret builds as a whole, this did not “kill” turret engineer viability, because the build was never “viable” in top-tier play to begin with, in which case all it was used for was blatantly winning against lower/medium skill brackets or builds not based around the current top-tier strategies/builds. The engineer still has plenty of viability as a class, and turrets are still usable. What they are no longer, is an unstoppable force that offers massive defenses and damage/control which can only be taken down by tankier specs and punish aggressive specs for no reason.

People who are crying about turrets being nerfed too hard fail to recognize that this build provided too much reward for basically no cost. Okay, so now turrets are maybe on the weaker side. Now the numbers for their defensive stats can be fiddled with better if it really comes down to it.

Turrets were never good. The players that ran them were never good through quantifiable means within the scope of playing the build because the skill floor was so high. Now that the build can be shut down, people are all in arms because it can be shut down by people who aren’t the best in the game. NEWSFLASH: The people which many mid-tier turret engineers were wiping were often more-skilled players than the engineers. Not MLG-levels of amazing (as then they wouldn’t have issues), but in many cases, players not on the top echelons of PvP playing turret builds were not particularly skilled and were being carried by something that was blatantly overpowered.

I do not see how it is unreasonable to kill a turret as a glass cannon in 2-3 seconds. Or how a utility skill can bodyblock for a period of time, or take target priority, etc., especially when that set of turrets could kill a glass cannon in 2-3 seconds. When tanks are dealing more damage, or at the very least the same amount of damage as full DPS to something in a PvP environment, there’s either a really kitten good reason why, or it’s because of an imbalance.

DeceiverX.8361:

Turrets were never good. The players that ran them were never good through quantifiable means within the scope of playing the build because the skill floor was so high. Now that the build can be shut down, people are all in arms because it can be shut down by people who aren’t the best in the game. NEWSFLASH: The people which many mid-tier turret engineers were wiping were often more-skilled players than the engineers. Not MLG-levels of amazing (as then they wouldn’t have issues), but in many cases, players not on the top echelons of PvP playing turret builds were not particularly skilled and were being carried by something that was blatantly overpowered.

I do not see how it is unreasonable to kill a turret as a glass cannon in 2-3 seconds. Or how a utility skill can bodyblock for a period of time, or take target priority, etc., especially when that set of turrets could kill a glass cannon in 2-3 seconds. When tanks are dealing more damage, or at the very least the same amount of damage as full DPS to something in a PvP environment, there’s either a really kitten good reason why, or it’s because of an imbalance.

You have zero evidence to back this up, none.

As for glass destroying a bunker in seconds, you must be joking. The turret is the offensive extension of the player who runs a bunker build without the healing, cleanses, immunity, and mobility of other bunker builds that you consider more viable or “skilled” builds. A shoutbow can’t have his offense removed by a glass build but you find it completely reasonable to unbunker turret engineers based on your bias.

DeceiverX.8361:

I’m assuming you’re referring to someone else about half of what I posted, because I never said anything about what was needed to make turrets viable and fair. I also never posted anything about turrets not scaling with the engineer’s stats.

You did, but it’s doesn’t matter.

DeceiverX.8361:

What I did post, was the mentioning that the argument I quoted was flawed on the sheer principle that if something is overpowered for a particular reason, and largely for one particular reason, and it results in stale gameplay or too high of a skill floor, a nerf is justified on the pretense that it will change the game to be played for the better, and in the case of engineers or turret builds as a whole, this did not “kill” turret engineer viability, because the build was never “viable” in top-tier play to begin with, in which case all it was used for was blatantly winning against lower/medium skill brackets or builds not based around the current top-tier strategies/builds.

What’s the reason?

DeceiverX.8361:

People who are crying about turrets being nerfed too hard fail to recognize that this build provided too much reward for basically no cost. Okay, so now turrets are maybe on the weaker side. Now the numbers for their defensive stats can be fiddled with better if it really comes down to it.

They weren’t nerfed, they were removed. There’s no way to justify this change. If we are to accept this as a legitimate nerf, then we also need to pretend that turret health was already balanced around receiving crits and conditions even when they were immune, which makes the balancing team look like a joke anyway.

DeceiverX.8361:

Turrets were never good. The players that ran them were never good through quantifiable means within the scope of playing the build because the skill floor was so high. Now that the build can be shut down, people are all in arms because it can be shut down by people who aren’t the best in the game. NEWSFLASH: The people which many mid-tier turret engineers were wiping were often more-skilled players than the engineers. Not MLG-levels of amazing (as then they wouldn’t have issues), but in many cases, players not on the top echelons of PvP playing turret builds were not particularly skilled and were being carried by something that was blatantly overpowered.

Make up your mind. If they were never good, then those players only needed to learn to play against them. So, you condone the removal of a build instead of learning how to counter them, then?

DeceiverX.8361:

I do not see how it is unreasonable to kill a turret as a glass cannon in 2-3 seconds. Or how a utility skill can bodyblock for a period of time, or take target priority, etc., especially when that set of turrets could kill a glass cannon in 2-3 seconds. When tanks are dealing more damage, or at the very least the same amount of damage as full DPS to something in a PvP environment, there’s either a really kitten good reason why, or it’s because of an imbalance.

Because a glass cannon cannot kill a mediguard’s weapon. Ever.

And we finally reach the heart of the problem. The turret had fixed damage and survivability regardless of the player’s stats. If I want to be a tanky, low/mid-DPS bunker, then I want tanky, low/mid-DPS turrets.

Giving fixed damage to any skill, turret or not, is a problem waiting to happen. It can never be balanced, especially in GW2 where classes’ roles can range from full tank to full glasscannon DPS.

I cannot for the life of me understand the logic behind this nerf. The turrets already died in like 3 hits.
I don’t play sPvP but if they were op then why not just nerf them in sPvP like they do with many other skills?