Guild Wars 2

alain.1659:

Guys if the mesmer with all its blinks, portals and stealth gets movement speed, Guardian should get it too. End of the story.

Mesmer has 1 blink ability, portals are useless for personal speed and stealth only helps with movement if you have PU traited. Dragonhunters have 2 leaps (gs #3 & f2), 2 targeted teleports (sword #2 600 range, and a 1200 range meditation) and probably the easiest access to swiftness of any profession.
Also you could potentially argue to get anything on a profession by comparing it to another.

Lahmia.2193:

alain.1659:

Guys if the mesmer with all its blinks, portals and stealth gets movement speed, Guardian should get it too. End of the story.

Mesmer has 1 blink ability, portals are useless for personal speed and stealth only helps with movement if you have PU traited. Dragonhunters have 2 leaps (gs #3 & f2), 2 targeted teleports (sword #2 600 range, and a 1200 range meditation) and probably the easiest access to swiftness of any profession.
Also you could potentially argue to get anything on a profession by comparing it to another.

I agree that you could potentially argue to get anything on a profession by comparing it to another, however there is so much wrong with your statement. You are confusing gap closing with survivability. When people are asking for mobility they do not want to jump in but jump out of melee range. Gap closing ability on under performing weapons means nothing. Currently the only mobility skill usable in combat to avoid damage is Wings of Resolve.

As for easiest access to swiftness, hmm?!! Can you maintain 100% uptime on swiftness? Sure. I could say the same about every class. Can you maintain any uptime on swiftness without using useless utilities and weapons in sPvP and WvW? No. Only time you can do that is in solo PvE, and no one gives 2 cents about that. Even there, most other classes have so much better and easier options.

Bottom line is guardian is under performing in sPvP, and the days of guardian being slow and tanky are way long gone. So options are: buff damage, buff sustainability or buff mobility. The third will be most useful and least likely to make guardian OP.

Lahmia.2193:

alain.1659:

Guys if the mesmer with all its blinks, portals and stealth gets movement speed, Guardian should get it too. End of the story.

Mesmer has 1 blink ability, portals are useless for personal speed and stealth only helps with movement if you have PU traited. Dragonhunters have 2 leaps (gs #3 & f2), 2 targeted teleports (sword #2 600 range, and a 1200 range meditation) and probably the easiest access to swiftness of any profession.
Also you could potentially argue to get anything on a profession by comparing it to another.

Mesmer has Continuum Split where blink can be used twice.
Phase Retreat on staff 2 which can be used while stunned/kd/cc.
Illusionary Leap which is a swap at 600 units teleports you to the target.
And of course, Portal.

The best part about all of this is that you cannot get cc’d while performing those actions other than Illusionary Leap. And Blink doesn’t require a target. And lastly, it has access to 25% movement speed increase without having to take a utility or weapon.

Arcaedus.7290:

Obtena.7952:

Professions are unique and those justifications are not sensible. lf you’re going to push for RS buff, it’s going to be based on the fact that it’s necessary to fulfill the concept of the class. Through the concept of Guardians, Anet decided that the buff wasn’t needed. Nothing has changed there if Anet didn’t change the class concept.

This is where our views differ. Pre HoT, I would have agreed with this statement. This is the whole reason ANet originally designed guardian without the +25% movement speed. However, things change over time, and that includes the range of capabilities a class possesses. Pre HoT, not every class had access to it. But now, every class except for guardian has access to a +25% movement speed util/trait. From a pvp and wvw balance standpoint I think that is a very compelling reason to give guardians a +25% movement speed buff somewhere.

Here’s a simple analogy to explain my argument: Mr. Anetto goves you 100$. That’s great right? Yeah! Free money is great, of course. Now then, imagine that at the same time you got that 100$, 8 other people around you get 200$. The value of that 100$ hasn’t decreased, but the disparity between you and those 8 others has. For the sake of fairness, I think it’s pretty obvious what Mr. Anetto should do.

You analogy assumes that across all professions, things are equal. They are not. It’s irrelevant if it’s fair … MMO’s are also not fair. There is nothing fair or equal between professions in any MMO I have ever played. Perhaps you are an idealist that thinks that is how it should be, but I prefer realistic expectations.

Ghotistyx.6942:

I’m your analogy, you didn’t take into account what each person started with, nor did you say Mr Anetto was contractually obligated to provide each person with $200. Just because someone else gets something nice doesn’t mean you also have to get that same thing, and that doesn’t necessarily mean you end up being unequal.

Another thing to consider; perhaps Mr. Anetto wants all 9 people to have anywhere from $800 to $900 each. Each person is making their own money in addition to what Mr. Anetto has given them. Mr. Anetto doles out what he thinks will be enough money based on each individual’s different earning potential. Sometimes be guesses correctly, sometimes not. He readjusts how much money he gives out each pay period based on previous factors and future projections. At no point is he forced to make sure each person has the same dollar amount. He just tries to keep everyone in a close range.

Oh yay, my favorite game! So in the analogy, the cash refers only to mobility overall. True, across all classes, they may be balanced in total assets (some may have more expensive homes or cars to compensate for lower raw cash). Overall, if you look at guardians, our total assets are arguably lower than that of most classes – just look at where we are in terms of pve, spvp and WvW. I’d say the average that the other 8 have is $850 and we’re closer to $800. Giving guardians a bit of extra cash (mobility) isn’t going to imbalance us and I doubt anyone would complain. I’m pretty sure it would instead make a lot of us happy. It would also attract new people to the class. A lot of people can’t seem to pick up guardian solely because of the fact that it moves so slowly.

Of course, Mr. Anetto is not at all forced to give us the extra $100, and honestly I’m pretty sure our total assets are within a reasonable range compared to other classes. I’m just trying to make the argument that we should receive that extra $100 for many significant reasons and that there are very few strong arguments as to why we shouldn’t receive that $100. As Obtena pointed out, I’m a bit of an idealist here; realistically we probably won’t receive it, but that doesn’t change the fact that from a balance stand point, we should receive it.

otto.5684:

Lahmia.2193:

alain.1659:

Guys if the mesmer with all its blinks, portals and stealth gets movement speed, Guardian should get it too. End of the story.

Mesmer has 1 blink ability, portals are useless for personal speed and stealth only helps with movement if you have PU traited. Dragonhunters have 2 leaps (gs #3 & f2), 2 targeted teleports (sword #2 600 range, and a 1200 range meditation) and probably the easiest access to swiftness of any profession.
Also you could potentially argue to get anything on a profession by comparing it to another.

I agree that you could potentially argue to get anything on a profession by comparing it to another, however there is so much wrong with your statement. You are confusing gap closing with survivability. When people are asking for mobility they do not want to jump in but jump out of melee range. Gap closing ability on under performing weapons means nothing. Currently the only mobility skill usable in combat to avoid damage is Wings of Resolve.

As for easiest access to swiftness, hmm?!! Can you maintain 100% uptime on swiftness? Sure. I could say the same about every class. Can you maintain any uptime on swiftness without using useless utilities and weapons in sPvP and WvW? No. Only time you can do that is in solo PvE, and no one gives 2 cents about that. Even there, most other classes have so much better and easier options.

Bottom line is guardian is under performing in sPvP, and the days of guardian being slow and tanky are way long gone. So options are: buff damage, buff sustainability or buff mobility. The third will be most useful and least likely to make guardian OP.

Would a single 25% movement signet/trait achieve this though? It would be a nice gesture but nothing more. That was the point i was trying to make (though failing I admit).

Obtena.7952:

Arcaedus.7290:

Obtena.7952:

Professions are unique and those justifications are not sensible. lf you’re going to push for RS buff, it’s going to be based on the fact that it’s necessary to fulfill the concept of the class. Through the concept of Guardians, Anet decided that the buff wasn’t needed. Nothing has changed there if Anet didn’t change the class concept.

This is where our views differ. Pre HoT, I would have agreed with this statement. This is the whole reason ANet originally designed guardian without the +25% movement speed. However, things change over time, and that includes the range of capabilities a class possesses. Pre HoT, not every class had access to it. But now, every class except for guardian has access to a +25% movement speed util/trait. From a pvp and wvw balance standpoint I think that is a very compelling reason to give guardians a +25% movement speed buff somewhere.

Here’s a simple analogy to explain my argument: Mr. Anetto goves you 100$. That’s great right? Yeah! Free money is great, of course. Now then, imagine that at the same time you got that 100$, 8 other people around you get 200$. The value of that 100$ hasn’t decreased, but the disparity between you and those 8 others has. For the sake of fairness, I think it’s pretty obvious what Mr. Anetto should do.

You analogy assumes that across all professions, things are equal. They are not. It’s irrelevant if it’s fair … MMO’s are also not fair. There is nothing fair or equal between professions in any MMO I have ever played. Perhaps you are an idealist that thinks that is how it should be, but I prefer realistic expectations.

Obtena in other games, classes differ roles, in gw2 classes diffeer by being playable and not playable due how gimmicks are far stronger than a non gimmick builds and some classes gimmicks are completelly a joke i feel super carried when playing them, except when playing guardian, they have no strong trade offs, they cant play anything else as medi trapper or medibuild on 2 vs 1 against decent players, if u play any other build on this class well… you will be ending a burden for your teams and that is what is wrong, due how other classes have been overbuffed.

The thing is there are to much classes with speed boost, and the class that does not have it, also does not have any trade off, in other games those tade off exist.

-Low surviability.
-poor combos outside medi traper builds.
-poor of team support.
-DH virtues are easilly interrupted.
- traps dont work outside spvp need to get 2+ vs 1 due stats and some classes were overbuffed over time, while they dont sacrifice much damage, in guardian u cant be as sturdy as other classes and that will kill your damage also, some classes still have surviability due the 25% speed bosst + overbuffed skills + damage output of that class still good.

Calling it now, it will almost 100%-ly be apart of the next elite spec (maybe some sort of “tome” master?)

Guardians don’t need a speed buff to be viable, it’s just QoL that most players want for the class. It’s mostly wanted in WvW and PvE. Can’t argue against 90% of Guardian players asking for it though.

Lahmia.2193:

otto.5684:

Lahmia.2193:

alain.1659:

Guys if the mesmer with all its blinks, portals and stealth gets movement speed, Guardian should get it too. End of the story.

Mesmer has 1 blink ability, portals are useless for personal speed and stealth only helps with movement if you have PU traited. Dragonhunters have 2 leaps (gs #3 & f2), 2 targeted teleports (sword #2 600 range, and a 1200 range meditation) and probably the easiest access to swiftness of any profession.
Also you could potentially argue to get anything on a profession by comparing it to another.

I agree that you could potentially argue to get anything on a profession by comparing it to another, however there is so much wrong with your statement. You are confusing gap closing with survivability. When people are asking for mobility they do not want to jump in but jump out of melee range. Gap closing ability on under performing weapons means nothing. Currently the only mobility skill usable in combat to avoid damage is Wings of Resolve.

As for easiest access to swiftness, hmm?!! Can you maintain 100% uptime on swiftness? Sure. I could say the same about every class. Can you maintain any uptime on swiftness without using useless utilities and weapons in sPvP and WvW? No. Only time you can do that is in solo PvE, and no one gives 2 cents about that. Even there, most other classes have so much better and easier options.

Bottom line is guardian is under performing in sPvP, and the days of guardian being slow and tanky are way long gone. So options are: buff damage, buff sustainability or buff mobility. The third will be most useful and least likely to make guardian OP.

Would a single 25% movement signet/trait achieve this though? It would be a nice gesture but nothing more. That was the point i was trying to make (though failing I admit).

Indeed it wont, yet it is a step in the right direction. Here is an example of how can this be done to help mobility, without making too many changes:

- Defender’s Dogma (DH trait minor master), also increases moving speed by 25%.
- DH runes in addition to providing 5 stacks of might also provide swiftness lasting 8 secs.
- Wings of Resolve cast time from 1 sec to 0.5 sec.
- True shot is now be cast while moving.

There is much that needs changing, but something like the above can be a start.

Saiyan.1704:

Guardians don’t need a speed buff to be viable, it’s just QoL that most players want for the class. It’s mostly wanted in WvW and PvE. Can’t argue against 90% of Guardian players asking for it though.

You pretty much nailed it for me. Despite how vehemently I argue for said +25% movement speed, I don’t really have mobility problems while in combat or engaged in some sort of fight in general. It’s out of combat that things become painful. Imo this takes lower priority than fixing/buffing guardian weapon skills and utilities. I still stand by my argument that giving guardians +25% movement speed through trait/skill would not create imbalance issues and would instead only bring tidings of joy to the class.

Lahmia.2193:

alain.1659:

Guys if the mesmer with all its blinks, portals and stealth gets movement speed, Guardian should get it too. End of the story.

Mesmer has 1 blink ability, portals are useless for personal speed and stealth only helps with movement if you have PU traited. Dragonhunters have 2 leaps (gs #3 & f2), 2 targeted teleports (sword #2 600 range, and a 1200 range meditation) and probably the easiest access to swiftness of any profession.
Also you could potentially argue to get anything on a profession by comparing it to another.

Really dude? Mesmer has a short cd blink and free %25 movement speed ( I do not want to include profession specific bonuses like invisibility, distortion etc.) . Blinking without target gives you the ability to jump on top of the bridges which is a perfect skill in wvw. Guardian sword? Meh. Most professions poop longer than 600 range nowadays. And that blasted sword can be useless due to the reflects.

Guardian needs a speed buff. It is already the weakest profession (not guardian with shouts, which is boring as hell, but DH). And I do not want to lose my utility slot, my weapon set and my trait line just to run. That might be my opinion but slowness is a huge con for roaming. Not to mention, it is boring as hell.

alain.1659:

Really dude? Mesmer has a short cd blink and free %25 movement speed ( I do not want to include profession specific bonuses like invisibility, distortion etc.) . Blinking without target gives you the ability to jump on top of the bridges which is a perfect skill in wvw. Guardian sword? Meh. Most professions poop longer than 600 range nowadays. And that blasted sword can be useless due to the reflects.

Guardian needs a speed buff. It is already the weakest profession (not guardian with shouts, which is boring as hell, but DH). And I do not want to lose my utility slot, my weapon set and my trait line just to run. That might be my opinion but slowness is a huge con for roaming. Not to mention, it is boring as hell.

Mesmer has no such thing. You even bothered to differentiate DH and “guardian with shouts”.

It’s a nice QoL change but there are a whole bunch of traits and skills they need to fix first.

My bad, not mesmer, chronomancer. My main was a mesmer some time ago, and still cannot push myself to call it chronomancer. But if I do it for others, I shall do it for Chronomancer also. Swap Mesmer with Chrono and continue to read.

I guess I should stop using Guardian and Dragonhunter interchangeably

Aeolus.3615:

Obtena.7952:

Arcaedus.7290:

Obtena.7952:

Professions are unique and those justifications are not sensible. lf you’re going to push for RS buff, it’s going to be based on the fact that it’s necessary to fulfill the concept of the class. Through the concept of Guardians, Anet decided that the buff wasn’t needed. Nothing has changed there if Anet didn’t change the class concept.

This is where our views differ. Pre HoT, I would have agreed with this statement. This is the whole reason ANet originally designed guardian without the +25% movement speed. However, things change over time, and that includes the range of capabilities a class possesses. Pre HoT, not every class had access to it. But now, every class except for guardian has access to a +25% movement speed util/trait. From a pvp and wvw balance standpoint I think that is a very compelling reason to give guardians a +25% movement speed buff somewhere.

Here’s a simple analogy to explain my argument: Mr. Anetto goves you 100$. That’s great right? Yeah! Free money is great, of course. Now then, imagine that at the same time you got that 100$, 8 other people around you get 200$. The value of that 100$ hasn’t decreased, but the disparity between you and those 8 others has. For the sake of fairness, I think it’s pretty obvious what Mr. Anetto should do.

You analogy assumes that across all professions, things are equal. They are not. It’s irrelevant if it’s fair … MMO’s are also not fair. There is nothing fair or equal between professions in any MMO I have ever played. Perhaps you are an idealist that thinks that is how it should be, but I prefer realistic expectations.

Obtena in other games, classes differ roles, in gw2 classes diffeer by being playable and not playable due how gimmicks are far stronger than a non gimmick builds and some classes gimmicks are completelly a joke i feel super carried when playing them, except when playing guardian, they have no strong trade offs, they cant play anything else as medi trapper or medibuild on 2 vs 1 against decent players, if u play any other build on this class well… you will be ending a burden for your teams and that is what is wrong, due how other classes have been overbuffed.

The thing is there are to much classes with speed boost, and the class that does not have it, also does not have any trade off, in other games those tade off exist.

-Low surviability.
-poor combos outside medi traper builds.
-poor of team support.
-DH virtues are easilly interrupted.
- traps dont work outside spvp need to get 2+ vs 1 due stats and some classes were overbuffed over time, while they dont sacrifice much damage, in guardian u cant be as sturdy as other classes and that will kill your damage also, some classes still have surviability due the 25% speed bosst + overbuffed skills + damage output of that class still good.

I don’t see anything there that disputes anything I said in the previous post you quoted. Classes differences are not fair or equal, REGARDLESS of what differentiates them in this or other MMO’s; if there wasn’t that differentiation, then classes would be different in name only. If that differentiation is seriously a problem for players, they have options to choose from for playing (or not) the game.

1. Quit the game altogether
2. Suffer with the class concept they like with diminished performance
3. Play a different class concept to get the performance they are after.

Anyone who has played MMO’s long enough knows that the more classes a game has, the less likely that a given class will meet a particular player’s requirements for both performance and conceptual appeal. It’s a fool’s errand and a questionable return on a developer’s investment to even try to deliver that to players. Hence, it’s partly why there are so many QQ threads about class performance, even when the performance is good.

Obtena.7952:

(…)

I don’t see anything there that disputes anything I said in the previous post you quoted. Classes differences are not fair or equal, REGARDLESS of what differentiates them in this or other MMO’s; if there wasn’t that differentiation, then classes would be different in name only. If that differentiation is seriously a problem for players, they have options to choose from for playing (or not) the game.

1. Quit the game altogether
2. Suffer with the class concept they like with diminished performance
3. Play a different class concept to get the performance they are after.

Anyone who has played MMO’s long enough knows that the more classes a game has, the less likely that a given class will meet a particular player’s requirements for both performance and conceptual appeal. It’s a fool’s errand and a questionable return on a developer’s investment to even try to deliver that to players. Hence, it’s partly why there are so many QQ threads about class performance, even when the performance is good.

So…Guardian “performance” outside medi trapper isnt..good or anything close to it, and PVE does not count for class analysis, gw2 has only 8 classes, with a very simple trait system and are not balanced towards pve or even close to that…

…. it is not a conceptual appeal how you call it.

If u do pvp you must be figthing afk players for sure or very new players to the game.

And another thing….
On other games classes are “equal” due trade offs, cause one excells in something that the other dont and vice versa, each one has its place, and sometimes they can support each other, its trade of one for another, this concept of sacrifice does not exist in gw2.
There will be diferences and weak classes to certain effects, the gap in gw2 is to big.

Let me try to give you some example, class A can defeat class B, but class B can do things that class A cant do… well now lets see guardian Class C that is defeated by A and B and only in some peculiar situations have chance to defeat B, class C is also weak outside the build that makes it have a chance with B and dont have any strong or mediocre feature, anything outside that will also tend to loose with class D E and F, but wont have any trade of or role in exchange.
C cant defeat other builds also since will sacrifice the low surviability that has for damage, or will sacrifice damage for nothing, not even is mediocre at support, so the only option viable is to keep fighthing and have a chance against B.

This is not a class that is in good spot, while other have many other options, guardian atm has to many counters.

Guardian dont have that trade off, it is weak, its only option is being “forced” to play with what still works, medi build on 2+ vs 1 situations, or meditrapers, even so medi trapeprs are easy to counter due its obvious combat type.

Give me reason to think guardian is in good spot? can you?

I can only tell you that Anet thinks it is because they have told us we are in a good place. I can only suspect that means that all the other classes need more work to achieve whatever targets Anet has for those classes than Guardian does.

Maybe people are delusional but … that’s what matters here. Balance is relative and there are no set rules for fairness or equality between classes, as nice as that might be. Anet sets those targets, Anet decides what work and what path to take on their timetable to achieve them.

Iknow balance is relative, but shutting down classes over time to make other classes or builds in that class to look good…it is not good either.

Actually i dont think Anet have any kind of target or limit to impose to other classes, they do whatever they think would sound and look good when being commented on esports, that is how they balance stuff, guardian being more slow and tactical does not fit in the actual gameplay because atm is to limited for it.

Probably something arround this, but i would bet im not that far away from the truth..

Obtena.7952:

I can only tell you that Anet thinks it is because they have told us we are in a good place. I can only suspect that means that all the other classes need more work to achieve whatever targets Anet has for those classes than Guardian does.

Maybe people are delusional but … that’s what matters here. Balance is relative and there are no set rules for fairness or equality between classes, as nice as that might be. Anet sets those targets, Anet decides what work and what path to take on their timetable to achieve them.

I’m pretty sure ANet hasn’t said guardians are in a good place since before the trait overhaul in June of 2015. It just seems to be an implied statement because 1. We don’t ever seem to get any large worthwhile changes that are frequently requested. Last one I can remember is a small cd reduction to shield skills when HoT shipped. 2. Other classes do.

Arcaedus.7290:

I’m pretty sure ANet hasn’t said guardians are in a good place since before the trait overhaul in June of 2015.

I don’t know the exact date, but Anet has said “Guardians are in a good place” once or twice and people haven’t let that go. Its parroted by angry people who can’t manage their anger in any better way.

No one can claim that I think Guardian (or any other class) is perfect, and I’ve offered many suggestions for change. I also spend my time going through every profession forum, so I see the forum member’s opinions of every class and how they all interact with each other. I decided long ago I wouldn’t foam at the mouth if balance didn’t go my way. I have now 19 level 80 characters, so chances are any balance patch is going to affect many of my characters.

What actually ends up getting me upset is when people rant about stupid things. If you have a logical complaint and have evidence to support your position for change, then that’s fine. You’re actually being beneficial to the community with that opinion. However, if all you have to say is, “lolol devs think guard in gud spot. fix pls”, then get ready for dripping sarcasm. Be mad, stay mad.

(Note: this isn’t directed specifically at you Arcadeus, just the subject as quoted)

dammn 19 lvl 80? i had 2 and the secondd was super boring to lvl… >_>

LazyDad.2037:

Retreat is all you need. 23 sec of swiftness on 30 sec recast. Can even slot in power set of runs that increases the swiftness uptime AND helps your offensive stats.

All the whines about the speed is silly. You have the tools already. Just use them

If you complain about retreat, what do you want? Signet of speed? Still going to use that utility slot for it.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Time_Marches_On
says hi…..

Having to use runes as well as utility skills while other classes makes people not want to play certain classes.

Arcaedus.7290:

Obtena.7952:

I can only tell you that Anet thinks it is because they have told us we are in a good place. I can only suspect that means that all the other classes need more work to achieve whatever targets Anet has for those classes than Guardian does.

Maybe people are delusional but … that’s what matters here. Balance is relative and there are no set rules for fairness or equality between classes, as nice as that might be. Anet sets those targets, Anet decides what work and what path to take on their timetable to achieve them.

I’m pretty sure ANet hasn’t said guardians are in a good place since before the trait overhaul in June of 2015. It just seems to be an implied statement because 1. We don’t ever seem to get any large worthwhile changes that are frequently requested. Last one I can remember is a small cd reduction to shield skills when HoT shipped. 2. Other classes do.

There is no point in debating with him he either likes to argue even if he agrees or he just defends every single decision the game company makes. and he doesnt understand mmorpgs ive played many over the years before wow and seen many forms of class balance.

Swiftness does not stack with the 25% mov speed, they could add it to some minor DH trait, but would make so little difference when you have easy acess to swiftness.

zinkz.7045:

mrauls.6519:

It is sad to see so many Guardians constantly recommend that other Guardians use retreat, save yourselves, or staff to compensate for our sluggish movement speed. Why should we have to sacrifice utility slots for “certain” skills? Retreat is good, but we shouldn’t have to rely on it. Please stop recommending those skills to other Guardians. We NEED to be revamped!

The only thing that is sad is the brainless powercreep in this game, of which movement speed is a fine example, back when this game started swiftness was actually considered a strong boon, because movement traits and skills were at 10% not 25%.

Signet of Shadows has always been 25%. Other than that, yes.

Ryou.2398:

Arcaedus.7290:

Obtena.7952:

I can only tell you that Anet thinks it is because they have told us we are in a good place. I can only suspect that means that all the other classes need more work to achieve whatever targets Anet has for those classes than Guardian does.

Maybe people are delusional but … that’s what matters here. Balance is relative and there are no set rules for fairness or equality between classes, as nice as that might be. Anet sets those targets, Anet decides what work and what path to take on their timetable to achieve them.

I’m pretty sure ANet hasn’t said guardians are in a good place since before the trait overhaul in June of 2015. It just seems to be an implied statement because 1. We don’t ever seem to get any large worthwhile changes that are frequently requested. Last one I can remember is a small cd reduction to shield skills when HoT shipped. 2. Other classes do.

There is no point in debating with him he either likes to argue even if he agrees or he just defends every single decision the game company makes. and he doesnt understand mmorpgs ive played many over the years before wow and seen many forms of class balance.

… yet we get another patch where balancing according to the profession concept is employed, AGAIN, inline with how I think balance is done. Tell me what I don’t understand again please?

I have yet to see a logical approach to suggesting we get 25% movement speed related to the class concept. There are many reasons for that. Perhaps Anet will change their mind; I think it’s actually ridiculous that our concept is the ONLY one that doesn’t access 25% RS through the class toolset. That’s still not enough to make a case for getting it though. If you understand how class concept balance works (which is clearly what Anet is doing), then you know why that it true. Also, from an AMA with Dulfy:

What do you think of the idea of having PvP only include “DPS” builds? Also, where do you see Guardian in the future of PvP?

There has been debate here on the subject but it’s more along the line of what are ways we can speed up the game.
As for guardian I’ve always liked the feel of less mobility but high effectiveness that scales more with more people making them strong group fighters but I think with a lot of the changes the guardian’s ability to sustain compared to other professions has been a major issue causing them to be less effective and something we need to work on but it can come into conflict with speeding the game up so it’s a bit tricky.

So at least in PVP, they know they are hitting a wall with Guardian concept and the direction they want the game to go.

Honestly…they could add 25% move speed to Signet of Wrath and I’d still take it.

Obtena.7952:

Ryou.2398:

Arcaedus.7290:

Obtena.7952:

I can only tell you that Anet thinks it is because they have told us we are in a good place. I can only suspect that means that all the other classes need more work to achieve whatever targets Anet has for those classes than Guardian does.

Maybe people are delusional but … that’s what matters here. Balance is relative and there are no set rules for fairness or equality between classes, as nice as that might be. Anet sets those targets, Anet decides what work and what path to take on their timetable to achieve them.

I’m pretty sure ANet hasn’t said guardians are in a good place since before the trait overhaul in June of 2015. It just seems to be an implied statement because 1. We don’t ever seem to get any large worthwhile changes that are frequently requested. Last one I can remember is a small cd reduction to shield skills when HoT shipped. 2. Other classes do.

There is no point in debating with him he either likes to argue even if he agrees or he just defends every single decision the game company makes. and he doesnt understand mmorpgs ive played many over the years before wow and seen many forms of class balance.

… yet we get another patch where balancing according to the profession concept is employed, AGAIN, inline with how I think balance is done. Tell me what I don’t understand again please?

I have yet to see a logical approach to suggesting we get 25% movement speed related to the class concept. There are many reasons for that. Perhaps Anet will change their mind; I think it’s actually ridiculous that our concept is the ONLY one that doesn’t access 25% RS through the class toolset. That’s still not enough to make a case for getting it though. If you understand how class concept balance works (which is clearly what Anet is doing), then you know why that it true. Also, from an AMA with Dulfy:

What do you think of the idea of having PvP only include “DPS” builds? Also, where do you see Guardian in the future of PvP?

There has been debate here on the subject but it’s more along the line of what are ways we can speed up the game.
As for guardian I’ve always liked the feel of less mobility but high effectiveness that scales more with more people making them strong group fighters but I think with a lot of the changes the guardian’s ability to sustain compared to other professions has been a major issue causing them to be less effective and something we need to work on but it can come into conflict with speeding the game up so it’s a bit tricky.

So at least in PVP, they know they are hitting a wall with Guardian concept and the direction they want the game to go.

LoL!! I asked that question and another one xD. Didn’t know they responded to both

I used to main mesmer before HOT. I always run runes of the traveler on my mesmer for wvw roaming. You can’t image how excited i was when i heard mesmer is getting 25% passive movement speed, it opens up so much more build and runes diversity. And i think guardian deserve the same treatment.

No one wants to use retreat in PvP -_- Also, swiftness can be boon stripped. Who wants to rely on one source for swiftness?

Certain classes like ele get speed while being attuned or from a trait why cant we have it for guards? Why do you have to take up a utility slot that only has a block and swiftness?

[cruisecontrol]
MAYBE BECAUSE DIFFERENT CLASSES GET DIFFERENT TOOLS
[/cruisecontrol]

Ryou.2398:

Certain classes like ele get speed while being attuned or from a trait why cant we have it for guards?

Oh I know this one … Class Concept?

Obtena.7952:

Ryou.2398:

Certain classes like ele get speed while being attuned or from a trait why cant we have it for guards?

Oh I know this one … Class Concept?

No just no, nearly every class has ways of increasing speed without taking a utility slot or having to use a utility that doesnt do much beyond running speed so dont give me this class concept nonsense.

Izzy

There has been debate here on the subject but it’s more along the line of what are ways we can speed up the game.
As for guardian I’ve always liked the feel of less mobility but high effectiveness that scales more with more people making them strong group fighters but I think with a lot of the changes the guardian’s ability to sustain compared to other professions has been a major issue causing them to be less effective and something we need to work on but it can come into conflict with speeding the game up so it’s a bit tricky.

Link to quote if anyone wants.

The problem with this is that the other “group fighter” classes have access to spammable switfness or a 25% speed increase somewhere while having similar/more sustain: Necros have a somewhat spammable swiftness from warhorn and a 25% speed signet, ele’s have a 25% speed increase as both a minor trait and signet, and Engies have it as a master trait and the Scapper spec poops out swiftness.

Ranger/Druid is the only other “group fighter” class without a speed increase but they can easily obtain perma-swiftness without giving up 2/3 of the utility bar and can gain far more mobility through their weapon skills than a Guardian can ever hope to achieve.

Ryou.2398:

Obtena.7952:

Ryou.2398:

Certain classes like ele get speed while being attuned or from a trait why cant we have it for guards?

Oh I know this one … Class Concept?

No just no, nearly every class has ways of increasing speed without taking a utility slot or having to use a utility that doesnt do much beyond running speed so dont give me this class concept nonsense.

I made a joke the other day … Why didn’t Guardians get a 25% movement buff? Because Anet said it didn’t fit the class concept. OK, I guess it’s not a very good joke. Maybe you just don’t want to believe it’s true, I don’t know but I don’t know how many more ways Anet can say it … or demonstrate it’s the case. /shrug

Obtena.7952:

Ryou.2398:

Obtena.7952:

Ryou.2398:

Certain classes like ele get speed while being attuned or from a trait why cant we have it for guards?

Oh I know this one … Class Concept?

No just no, nearly every class has ways of increasing speed without taking a utility slot or having to use a utility that doesnt do much beyond running speed so dont give me this class concept nonsense.

I made a joke the other day … Why didn’t Guardians get a 25% movement buff? Because Anet said it didn’t fit the class concept. OK, I guess it’s not a very good joke. Maybe you just don’t want to believe it’s true, I don’t know but I don’t know how many more ways Anet can say it … or demonstrate it’s the case. /shrug

I apologize, I feel like a jerk. But something occured to me maybe its because in modes like wvw having a better running speed might make it a little op if they use bow? I dont know its the only thing I can think of.

It doesn’t even have to be something like that. Rangers can have a longbow and 25% increased run speed. However, Rangers aren’t Guardians. Guardians are designed to be less mobile, but powerful team fighters. You’re defined just as much by what you do well as what you cannot do well.

Ryou.2398:

Obtena.7952:

Ryou.2398:

Obtena.7952:

Ryou.2398:

Certain classes like ele get speed while being attuned or from a trait why cant we have it for guards?

Oh I know this one … Class Concept?

No just no, nearly every class has ways of increasing speed without taking a utility slot or having to use a utility that doesnt do much beyond running speed so dont give me this class concept nonsense.

I made a joke the other day … Why didn’t Guardians get a 25% movement buff? Because Anet said it didn’t fit the class concept. OK, I guess it’s not a very good joke. Maybe you just don’t want to believe it’s true, I don’t know but I don’t know how many more ways Anet can say it … or demonstrate it’s the case. /shrug

I apologize, I feel like a jerk. But something occured to me maybe its because in modes like wvw having a better running speed might make it a little op if they use bow? I dont know its the only thing I can think of.

IMO, it wouldn’t be OP’ed for Guardian to get a 25% movement buff at all … it astounds me that somehow, Guardian is the ONLY class concept to not have it; are no other professions in this game intended to be frontline, team-based fighters as well Anet? Regardless, we don’t have it and it doesn’t seem based on the most recent questions that we are getting it anytime soon, if at all. I would like to get it myself but I get the class has this specific deficiency to enforce the ‘role’ Anet has in mind for it.

ZoroDaOtter.3859:

..and Engies have it as a master trait and the Scapper spec poops out swiftness.

The irony is strong with this one…

I honestly don’t have mobility problems between GS 3 (or sword 2), f2, renewed focus for another f2, and JI. Ranged attacks on longbow or scepter + f1 pull (and now cripple) really help me to keep up with foes, so I don’t struggle in 1v1 or skirmish situations either.

Main reason I think guards should receive +25% movement speed is not to balance us in pvp. We’re fine there imo. But the +25% ms would be a huge qol for all guardians when not in combat! We could equip a trait for +25% ms, then when getting closer to our intended destination, switch out the trait. It could even be attached to unscathed contender (since the trait becomes nearly useless in combat)! Pretty please, ANet, consider giving guardians that +25% ms? It’s not so we can be spoiled and “keep up” with others, but rather so we can move around outside of combat and not feel so slow.

Ghotistyx.6942:

It doesn’t even have to be something like that. Rangers can have a longbow and 25% increased run speed. However, Rangers aren’t Guardians. Guardians are designed to be less mobile, but powerful team fighters. You’re defined just as much by what you do well as what you cannot do well.

Guardians are not designed to be less mobile in combat they have plenty of mobile options.

Arcaedus.7290:

I honestly don’t have mobility problems between GS 3 (or sword 2), f2, renewed focus for another f2, and JI. Ranged attacks on longbow or scepter + f1 pull (and now cripple) really help me to keep up with foes, so I don’t struggle in 1v1 or skirmish situations either.

Main reason I think guards should receive +25% movement speed is not to balance us in pvp. We’re fine there imo. But the +25% ms would be a huge qol for all guardians when not in combat! We could equip a trait for +25% ms, then when getting closer to our intended destination, switch out the trait. It could even be attached to unscathed contender (since the trait becomes nearly useless in combat)! Pretty please, ANet, consider giving guardians that +25% ms? It’s not so we can be spoiled and “keep up” with others, but rather so we can move around outside of combat and not feel so slow.

The biggest issue is wvw, the maps are huge and its a pain to get around without a staff build.

Arcaedus.7290:

Main reason I think guards should receive +25% movement speed is not to balance us in pvp. We’re fine there imo. But the +25% ms would be a huge qol for all guardians when not in combat! We could equip a trait for +25% ms, then when getting closer to our intended destination, switch out the trait. It could even be attached to unscathed contender (since the trait becomes nearly useless in combat)! Pretty please, ANet, consider giving guardians that +25% ms? It’s not so we can be spoiled and “keep up” with others, but rather so we can move around outside of combat and not feel so slow.

While I found ways to solve this issue for myself I agree this is more of an QoL issue than a balance issue. I really like the idea of attaching it to Unscathed Contender and it has been discussed in the forums on a regular occasions because it is an obvious and smart choice.

The only thing I wouldn’t like about it: Virtues is quite overused already. But it could, for example, be moved to Zeal. It would fit there pretty well considering the other Aegis traits. And nobody needs Kindled Zeal…

Ryou.2398:

Ghotistyx.6942:

It doesn’t even have to be something like that. Rangers can have a longbow and 25% increased run speed. However, Rangers aren’t Guardians. Guardians are designed to be less mobile, but powerful team fighters. You’re defined just as much by what you do well as what you cannot do well.

Guardians are not designed to be less mobile in combat they have plenty of mobile options.

Yes they are designed to be less mobile… Devs have said it time and time again… Look at the pic in my signature.

Giving us 25% movement speed as a trait or innate function would be beast

No passive speed buff is the only reason I didn’t created Guardian yet…

mrauls.6519:

Ryou.2398:

Ghotistyx.6942:

It doesn’t even have to be something like that. Rangers can have a longbow and 25% increased run speed. However, Rangers aren’t Guardians. Guardians are designed to be less mobile, but powerful team fighters. You’re defined just as much by what you do well as what you cannot do well.

Guardians are not designed to be less mobile in combat they have plenty of mobile options.

Yes they are designed to be less mobile… Devs have said it time and time again… Look at the pic in my signature.

Giving us 25% movement speed as a trait or innate function would be beast

It doesnt matter they are more mobile in combat then mesmers so regardless of what you claim they said that simply isnt the case, do you even play guardian?

Ryou.2398:

mrauls.6519:

Ryou.2398:

Ghotistyx.6942:

It doesn’t even have to be something like that. Rangers can have a longbow and 25% increased run speed. However, Rangers aren’t Guardians. Guardians are designed to be less mobile, but powerful team fighters. You’re defined just as much by what you do well as what you cannot do well.

Guardians are not designed to be less mobile in combat they have plenty of mobile options.

Yes they are designed to be less mobile… Devs have said it time and time again… Look at the pic in my signature.

Giving us 25% movement speed as a trait or innate function would be beast

It doesnt matter they are more mobile in combat then mesmers so regardless of what you claim they said that simply isnt the case, do you even play guardian?

This logic fails you … (even if) Guardians are more mobile than Mesmer, they are indeed designed to be less mobile, generally, than other classes and I believe Anet has hit that target, based on playing and watching the QQ on the forums.

I’m also certain that someone playing Guardian or not has little to do with if they know how Mesmer mobility compares to Guardian. I’ve thousands of hours on Guardian … I got no clue if Mesmer is more or less mobile than Guardian. Why would I or anyone know this based on how much they have played Guardian? There is no correlation there.