Active: teleport to your target and chill (4s) (60 sec CD)
The catch is you would only get this virtue by going 4 in virtues and selecting it as your master trait. That way every guardian doesn’t have 25% move speed automatically with no investment, but its still there for those who want it
Active: teleport to your target and chill (4s) (60 sec CD)
The catch is you would only get this virtue by going 4 in virtues and selecting it as your master trait. That way every guardian doesn’t have 25% move speed automatically with no investment, but its still there for those who want it
But the virtue trait line is there to enhance already existing virtues. I feel that even 4% speed increase per boon might be much for an untouched virtue, perhaps 3% and a maximum of 15% would be proper. If traited into it could become 5% speed increase per boon, up to a maximum of 25% and perhaps increase the range on teleport to 1200 and decrease its CD by 20% or something along those lines. As for the chill on tele, that would be awesome! If this trait was available it would make GS/Hammer builds much more interesting.
If we take carpboy’s suggestion:
4th master trait replaces retal duration, which is merged with retaliatory subconscious. Changed to +11% speed for each virtue on (passive or active? There’re good reasons for either). Boom, done.
Active: teleport to your target and chill (4s) (60 sec CD)
The catch is you would only get this virtue by going 4 in virtues and selecting it as your master trait. That way every guardian doesn’t have 25% move speed automatically with no investment, but its still there for those who want it
Not a chance … 25% speed increase for nothing is unreasonable. Even the professions that get speed increase have to make a choice to get it. Not even sure the Active is reasonable for a Virtue considering other Active Virtue effects.
Active: teleport to your target and chill (4s) (60 sec CD)
The catch is you would only get this virtue by going 4 in virtues and selecting it as your master trait. That way every guardian doesn’t have 25% move speed automatically with no investment, but its still there for those who want it
Not a chance … 25% speed increase for nothing. Even the professions that get speed increase have to make a choice to get it. Not even sure the Active is reasonable for a Virtue.
…hence the requirement of 4 in virtues. Reading is OP
None of this is even remotely likely. Whenever these threads pop up about new skills or weapons theres almost 0 chance theyll ever be implemented. Just have fun with it.
Anet just overhauled runes and sigils, along with giving each prof 5 new grandmaster traits. If you don’t think that’s changing classes, I don’t know what.
If we take carpboy’s suggestion:
4th master trait replaces retal duration, which is merged with retaliatory subconscious. Changed to +11% speed for each virtue on (passive or active? There’re good reasons for either). Boom, done.
I do like the idea but I don’t think you could merge +11% speed per Virtue on top of having retaliatory subconscious without it being overpowered. If anything you’d have to replace retaliatory subconscious altogether, which won’t happen.
Arenanet seem to be done changing classes. This crappy situation is IT
I’ve put about 1000 hours into my DPS Guard and the only real flaw I can think of is mobility.
While it is true that Anet hasn’t done jack kitten in the past months, I do recall them buffing Necromancers by giving them #5 in DS – perhaps they will finally admit that Guards need some love in the mobility department and they will come up with something along the lines of a 4th virtue. Unfortunately, this would require a re-work of the last trait line which is something I doubt they would get into.
Anet just overhauled runes and sigils, along with giving each prof 5 new grandmaster traits. If you don’t think that’s changing classes, I don’t know what.
You are fooled into thinking anything changed for Guardians, then. Aside from the new GM in Zeal (+33% burning damage), I haven’t seen a single player use one of the traits for PvP. Bunker and support guards were in a fine spot; DPS, the only spec that needed some love, did not actually get anything. In my opinion all the new grand master traits are pretty lackluster and pointless.
To be honest, I’m against the idea of making Guardian faster period. While this is a nice academic discussion, I believe from a conceptual view, it’s not what the class is about. I also don’t think we should ignore the things that makes the profession unique in the game, even if those things are deficiencies. These threads simply illustrate those things that intentionally separate the professions by more than just their name.
The whole idea behind having more mobility is to hit enemies during battle more efficiently, and actually have a chance at chasing someone down. With that being said, how many seconds of uptime would the 25% passive speed on aegis actually be? I’d say it’d be very low. Unscathed contender is already tricky enough to use on small bursts during battle, I can’t imagine your proposed trait actually doing anything during battle.
To be honest, I’m against the idea of making Guardian faster period. While this is a nice academic discussion, I believe from a conceptual view, it’s not what the class is about. I also don’t think we should ignore the things that makes the profession unique in the game, even if those things are deficiencies. These threads simply illustrate those things that intentionally separate the professions by more than just their name.
Carry on.
That makes no sense. Warriors have a ton of defenses and are heavy as well, but they have access to more leaps, lunges and perma-swiftness. Conceptually I never thought of warriors as ultra mobile and in many games they aren’t; you’re bringing in subjectivity here.
Outside of s/x (which I don’t particularly enjoy) the mobility blows and picking speed/traveler runes gimps DPS enough not to make meditation worth it in a lot of cases, especially when you could use runes such as Strength, Pirate or Pack.
What is the point of a DPS class if you can’t land blows? It’s nonsense. Just to give you an example, Retribution Paladins in WoW did not have any soft CC but they had bursts of speed to help land blows and it felt great and synergetic with that particular spec.
So I’m the one that doesn’t make sense when I say that Guardians having a deficiency is normal, yet you think it’s unreasonable for them to have this deficiency because WARRIORS have … whatever? That is what I’m talking about when I say that Guardians have and haven’t got certain things and this is what makes them Guardians.
I think suggestions to land hits inline with the Guardian theme, it seems to me that the speed buffing is the least relevant. I would much rather see some thoughtful approach to making hits connect with targets; that’s much more palatable than a more powerful, general speed buff.
I would be more apt to have the passive increase duration of speed buffs (not give them) and the active be something similar to a Hammer #5. I don’t feel something along the lines of those ideas violates the concept of the profession and still provides real, useful utility.
So I’m the one that doesn’t make sense when I say that Guardians having a deficiency is normal, yet you think it’s unreasonable for them to have this deficiency because WARRIORS have … whatever? That is what I’m talking about when I say that Guardians have and haven’t got certain things and this is what makes them Guardians.
I think suggestions to land hits inline with the Guardian theme, it seems to me that the speed buffing is the least relevant. I would much rather see some thoughtful approach to making hits connect with targets; that’s much more palatable than a more powerful, general speed buff.
I would be more apt to have the passive increase duration of speed buffs (not give them) and the active be something similar to a Hammer #5. I don’t feel something along the lines of those ideas violates the concept of the profession and still provides real, useful utility.
Warriors and Guardians are the only two heavy armored classes, that’s the reason why I compared them. Outside of mobility, the main deficiency of Meditation (in PvP, though I’m sure it applies to PvE as well) is longevity since most survivability comes from active sources – and I’m fine with that. I’m not even asking for a colossal buff to speed (as you said “powerful”) but it would help the class land shots since it lacks 1. soft cc and 2. swiftness.
I take it you play much more PvE than PvP, otherwise you would definitely know where I’m coming from. Hitting A.I.’s and stacking is one thing, but when you have active players easily outrunning your hits, there is a problem. In order to make up for the fact that they have to be in range, melee classes need either CC, soft CC and mobility. Warrior has all, while Guardian has little CC (GS/Hammer) and no mobility nor soft CC.
I don’t play DPS and go through my rotation sitting in place like you do. There is a flaw with this class, and it is mobility. Also, mind your sentence wording.
They are separate classes, heavy armor or not, so the comparison ends there. Those comparisons are not sensible since professions are intended to be conceptually different.
I know where your coming from. While we are both keenly aware of how the speed of Guardian affects it’s ability to do damage, it appears that this fact hasn’t affected your strategy to PVPing on Guardian.
Your statement about sitting in a place and DPSing seems to indicate to me that you haven’t expanded your ability to PVP with a team and instead, are attempting to enhance a weakness which can only bring about mediocre results. You really can’t compete if that’s your approach because fundamentally, Guardian is a grouping profession and taking advantage of who and what is happening around you is imperative to success. The mobility isn’t a flaw, it’s a limitation. It’s only a flaw when players don’t recognize how this limitation SHOULD affect their application of the class in PVP. Once you get past trying to fit a square peg in a round hole, you will see how the profession fits in the PVP meta.
They are separate classes, heavy armor or not, so the comparison ends there. Those comparisons are not sensible since professions are intended to be conceptually different.
I know where your coming from. While we are both keenly aware of how the speed of Guardian affects it’s ability to do damage, it appears that this fact hasn’t affected your strategy to PVPing on Guardian.
Your statement about sitting in a place and DPSing seems to indicate to me that you haven’t expanded your ability to PVP with a team and instead, are attempting to enhance a weakness which can only bring about mediocre results. You really can’t compete if that’s your approach because fundamentally, Guardian is a grouping profession and taking advantage of who and what is happening around you is imperative to success. The mobility isn’t a flaw, it’s a limitation. It’s only a flaw when players don’t recognize how this limitation SHOULD affect their application of the class in PVP. Once you get past trying to fit a square peg in a round hole, you will see how the profession fits in the PVP meta.
I had a strong team going for about 2 months and I always played DPS Guard. We sat between 150-200 in TeamQ consistently throughout the last month of that. In soloQ I consistently rank 50-100. I do know what my strengths and limitations are, which is exactly why I believe that mobility is an issue.
I was referring to you, as a PvE player, when I made the statement about DPSing in place. There’s nothing else to DPS in PvE, period.
Nearly 3,000 games as a Guardian has definitely taught me how to work around the mobility deficiency and I can pretty much 1v1 anyone. In team fights I don’t simply mash my keys and go through the best DPS rotation, which is probably what you think I do. Instead of making assumptions about my own skill level and limiting yourself based on your conceptualization of the class, perhaps you ought to consider the broader spectrum of DPS classes to see how miserably Guardian fails in the mobility and soft CC department. They are fundamental aspects to successfully delivering damage as melee, there is no arguing against that.
They are fundamental aspects to successfully delivering damage as melee, there is no arguing against that.
That’s true and no one is arguing against it. I am saying that throwing runspeed at Guardians isn’t inline with how we play as a class in the PVP aspect of the game. That has nothing to do with 1000’s of hours of PVP experience or some title that can be obtained. It’s just good old class design and definition stuff. There is a reason our only swiftness buff is on a symbol on a single weapon and it’s not due to dev apathy. It’s because we are encouraged to play as a team, to get and take with the team. That includes sharing CC and buffs, etc… It’s especially true for tPvP where you can plan a strategy out with teammates. I think it’s not unreasonable to believe that if your playing to win with organized teams, this is a discussion that people have.
… it’s almost cause to claim that the best PVP players worry less about these things because if they do what is intended to form teams and plan, the CC/swiftness is already covered for you by classes that do have those things as strengths.
In PvP movement speed isn’t going to help, you need soft cc like cripple/chill because lierally our counter right now is just walking around in circles from us cause we don’t have a way to stick
This is a waste of a potential 4th Virtue slot. No thanks to any sort of suggestion for extra mobility, and this is especially true for a Medi-Guard. If you’re having trouble with mobility on a Meditation build, you should re-roll.
Soft CC is more important that speed. And CC is something we need more of.
Ideally, a 4th Virtue needs to benefit all aspects of game play, and a speed buff would only benefit WvW when you solo roam.
I’ve put about 1000 hours into my DPS Guard and the only real flaw I can think of is mobility.
While it is true that Anet hasn’t done jack kitten in the past months, I do recall them buffing Necromancers by giving them #5 in DS – perhaps they will finally admit that Guards need some love in the mobility department and they will come up with something along the lines of a 4th virtue. Unfortunately, this would require a re-work of the last trait line which is something I doubt they would get into.
Please remember that not all of us are PvP players. Mobility is not a problem for WvW (staff) Guardians.
Nobody at Anet loves WvW like Grouch loved PvP. That’s what we need, a WvW Grouch, but taller.
There are 6/8 classes with access to the 25% movement speed buff through traits or signets. If we shouldn’t get the 25% movement speed bonus at all, why is it available through runes?
I think this is the wrong way to go about it though. An elite signet with the 25% bonus would be much better, imo.
There are 6/8 classes with access to the 25% movement speed buff through traits or signets. If we shouldn’t get the 25% movement speed bonus at all, why is it available through runes?
There is no mechanic that has limitations on runes for classes. No one said Guardians can’t have speed buffs (we have one on the staff remember). It’s about implementation and that particular implementation does work in the class concept because it’s a skill that provides support to the team. A virtue speed buff does not.
Cripple/Immobilize or controlling other players movement; this is the way to address the deficiency without breaking Guardian concept.
Lo and behold, we have chill on hammer crit. We also have chill on hit and chill on weapon swap. Now, since I’d these options aren’t class specific, but they are options and it’s up to people to take them.
Plus, a cripple version of voj would be too much, considering guardian is balanced around not having that.
Lo and behold, we have chill on hammer crit. We also have chill on hit and chill on weapon swap. Now, since I’d these options aren’t class specific, but they are options and it’s up to people to take them.
Of course it’s possible to maximize different conditions via gear, but I’m not about to run some gimmicky build just to get some soft CC
There are 6/8 classes with access to the 25% movement speed buff through traits or signets. If we shouldn’t get the 25% movement speed bonus at all, why is it available through runes?
There is no mechanic that has limitations on runes for classes. No one said Guardians can’t have speed buffs (we have one on the staff remember). It’s about implementation and that particular implementation does work in the class concept because it’s a skill that provides support to the team. A virtue speed buff does not.
Cripple/Immobilize or controlling other players movement; this is the way to address the deficiency without breaking Guardian concept.
Not talking about swiftness here. Only the general 25% speed boost. If it’s something that breaks the class concept of guardian, then they screwed the pooch making the 6th rune bonus a speed boost. It’s not that it should be limited from guardians and mesmers, but rather that the bonus on runes should never have been made in the first place. And now that they are available, there’s no reason why 2 out of 8 classes don’t have natural access.
And well, I won’t disagree that the 25% movement speed doesn’t belong on virtues. It’s a nice idea but sounds like wanting two things and just lumping them together.
Personally, I’d either like to see it as an elite signet, or a adept major trait in radiance.
There are 6/8 classes with access to the 25% movement speed buff through traits or signets. If we shouldn’t get the 25% movement speed bonus at all, why is it available through runes?
There is no mechanic that has limitations on runes for classes. No one said Guardians can’t have speed buffs (we have one on the staff remember). It’s about implementation and that particular implementation does work in the class concept because it’s a skill that provides support to the team. A virtue speed buff does not.
Cripple/Immobilize or controlling other players movement; this is the way to address the deficiency without breaking Guardian concept.
Not talking about swiftness here. Only the general 25% speed boost. If it’s something that breaks the class concept of guardian, then they screwed the pooch making the 6th rune bonus a speed boost.
The point is that rune aren’t connected to the concept of the profession, so where the runes give a flat speed boost or an increase through some other mechanic that increases movement speed is moot.
I don’t see how the profession concept is ruined by providing a non-profession related item that could compensate. I do see how the profession concept is ruined by providing compensation through a uniquely profession related element. Maybe that’s academic and a little diversion from the topic but I think it’s a subtle distinction worth making. Profession concepts aren’t corrupted by gear choices.
There are 6/8 classes with access to the 25% movement speed buff through traits or signets. If we shouldn’t get the 25% movement speed bonus at all, why is it available through runes?
There is no mechanic that has limitations on runes for classes. No one said Guardians can’t have speed buffs (we have one on the staff remember). It’s about implementation and that particular implementation does work in the class concept because it’s a skill that provides support to the team. A virtue speed buff does not.
Cripple/Immobilize or controlling other players movement; this is the way to address the deficiency without breaking Guardian concept.
Not talking about swiftness here. Only the general 25% speed boost. If it’s something that breaks the class concept of guardian, then they screwed the pooch making the 6th rune bonus a speed boost.
The point is that rune aren’t connected to the concept of the profession, so where the runes give a flat speed boost or an increase through some other mechanic that increases movement speed is moot.
I don’t see how the profession concept is ruined by providing a non-profession related item that could compensate. I do see how the profession concept is ruined by providing compensation through a uniquely profession related element. Maybe that’s academic and a little diversion from the topic but I think it’s a subtle distinction worth making. Profession concepts aren’t corrupted by gear choices.
So you clip out the quote TWICE where I agree with you about movement speed not belonging on virtues, and then place your whole argument on movement speed ruining the profession concept? I’m not sure why you’ve even quoted me in the first place. I was only making a simple point to begin with, but if I’m going to have to spell this out I will.
Runes have to be made with all classes in mind. Especially in PvP, runes are introduced that won’t compromise profession mechanics. Take the runes of perplexity for example. Adding confusion to a class like necromancer, would of ruined it’s very balance. And yet, the runes of the traveler haven’t broken the guardian yet.
There are 6/8 classes with access to the 25% movement speed buff through traits or signets. If we shouldn’t get the 25% movement speed bonus at all, why is it available through runes?
There is no mechanic that has limitations on runes for classes. No one said Guardians can’t have speed buffs (we have one on the staff remember). It’s about implementation and that particular implementation does work in the class concept because it’s a skill that provides support to the team. A virtue speed buff does not.
Cripple/Immobilize or controlling other players movement; this is the way to address the deficiency without breaking Guardian concept.
Not talking about swiftness here. Only the general 25% speed boost. If it’s something that breaks the class concept of guardian, then they screwed the pooch making the 6th rune bonus a speed boost.
The point is that rune aren’t connected to the concept of the profession, so where the runes give a flat speed boost or an increase through some other mechanic that increases movement speed is moot.
I don’t see how the profession concept is ruined by providing a non-profession related item that could compensate. I do see how the profession concept is ruined by providing compensation through a uniquely profession related element. Maybe that’s academic and a little diversion from the topic but I think it’s a subtle distinction worth making. Profession concepts aren’t corrupted by gear choices.
So you clip out the quote TWICE where I agree with you about movement speed not belonging on virtues, and then place your whole argument on movement speed ruining the profession concept? I’m not sure why you’ve even quoted me in the first place.
Because movement speed doesn’t ruin the concept … having movement speed ON SELF-SERVING GUARDIAN SKILLS does. That’s why traveler’s runes existence doesn’t mean dev’s overlooked the profession. It’s why it’s OK for a Guardian symbol to drop swiftness … because it’s team support. It’s why it’s NOT OK to have movement speed as a virtue.
If anything, I’m just being clear so people know where I’m coming from. l’m not so sure you understand my position.
Why would movespeed variance be a concept in a class except for a highly specialized one like an athlete by trade? Guardians don’t automatically wear heavier gear than others, and given how they are a vocation found in battles they will know the value of mobility. In fact, being slow is directly hampering the ability to guard, so it’s a bit ironic that way.
I think there is a lot better flavour battles to be fought than that particular one.
Why would movespeed variance be a concept in a class except for a highly specialized one like an athlete by trade? Guardians don’t automatically wear heavier gear than others, and given how they are a vocation found in battles they will know the value of mobility. In fact, being slow is directly hampering the ability to guard, so it’s a bit ironic that way.
I think there is a lot better flavour battles to be fought than that particular one.
Ummm I’m confused by this. Guardians only wear heavier gear…. There are no other options….
Also, mobility does not hamper them. The inability of keeping the enemy in the engagement does. In fact, they have a team wide shout for speed to compensate for the slowness. They do not have enemy CC though. That makes no sense for them since they are supposed to be the front liners.
Also, I see where you’re going Obtena, but the active effect could affect the team and that would stay within the idea of Virtues. However, I still disagree with having a Speed Virtue. There so many other better ideas out there for a 4th virtue isntead.
Honestly, glacial heart in its current implementation could be excellent for a 4th virtue. 2-4s -ish chill on crit every 30s, with damage and some other effects on pop.
Honestly, glacial heart in its current implementation could be excellent for a 4th virtue. 2-4s -ish chill on crit every 30s, with damage and some other effects on pop.
Still unviable, its not a proc you can control and with a long CD lik that for a short duration, can’t really opt for it.
It can (at minimum): force the opponent to pop a cleanse, otherwise they get 4s of reduced movement and skill recharge, and/or be another piece of the whole chill puzzle like we have now, but for all weapons instead of just hammer. Also, the nondescript active could make it worth having. It’s often the case with the current 3 virtues.
Also, RNG isn’t bad. It’s like people think it’s polio or something.
One year ago i came here and said that Guardians needed some soft kind of cc, like a cripple.
Sorem, you’re crazy, they said. That’s stupid, they said.
Well, well…
I’ve been apart of this forum since nearly release. I don’t think I’ve ever said that against your opinion. In fact, I distinctly remember several members that agreed and advocated for this as well.
Guardian still needs zeal symbol traits to rework/removed, spirit weapons need to be useful outside of spvp, an actual ranged weapon, and a couple of other things first….
