Guild Wars 2

Dempsey.8760:

fadeaway.2807:

Berner.7289:

I don’t use AH, and I don’t agree with you. Stop yelling, and stop assuming.

+1

You can have AH and DPS. Just don’t expect to look like a guardian. DPS, AH, adequate support; pick 2.

You shouldn’t have to pick 2, people should just know it should always be: DPS + Adequate support.

Yeh I actually thought that was common sense. :/

so which build has good dps and uses AH?

10/30/30/0/0, assuming that you won’t be able to maintain Unscathed Contender for a long time anyway. Though it is needless to say that the combination of AH and DPS without support is incredibly stupid in any PvE environment.

That might actually change if mesmers become the new condition removal + reflect meta for pve dungeons. We’ll wait and see.

Imho, I would never let go of all the support stuff just because a mesmer could potentially do it, too.

fadeaway.2807:

That might actually change if mesmers become the new condition removal + reflect meta for pve dungeons. We’ll wait and see.

We’d be better off playing as Thieves or Eles if defensive support ins’t needed. There is no point on playing guardian without traiting into proper support.

for pve play you need at least 10 in virtues, ideally 20 for master of consecrations and absolute resolution. also 5 points in honor for permanent vigor is very strong for pve and needed for some places

lmao people thinking of playing pure offensive guardians and expecting mesmers to provide the reflects and condi cleanse

w a t

For PVE play you don’t NEED anything unless you are engineering your team.

You sure? I’d like to see people fighting lupi or alpha for example in a non optimal (non zerker, not stacking boons) group without vigor, it sounds really painful.

Oxxy.7068:

You sure? I’d like to see people fighting lupi or alpha for example in a non optimal (non zerker, not stacking boons) group without vigor, it sounds really painful.

Stacking only regen I guess.

haviz.1340:

Oxxy.7068:

You sure? I’d like to see people fighting lupi or alpha for example in a non optimal (non zerker, not stacking boons) group without vigor, it sounds really painful.

Stacking only regen I guess.

I saw dodges!

hybrid.5027:

I saw dodges!

Occasional only!

haviz.1340:

Oxxy.7068:

You sure? I’d like to see people fighting lupi or alpha for example in a non optimal (non zerker, not stacking boons) group without vigor, it sounds really painful.

Stacking only regen I guess.

Oxxy.7068:

really painful.

:(
Also, that guard had vigor on critical, pffft. Kind of funny how this guy can be solo’ed way faster than this when people care about their build.

Obtena.7952:

For PVE play you don’t NEED anything unless you are engineering your team.

We are presupposing and engineered team because we are experienced players and organized groups are symptomatic of experienced players.

Sure, but that doesn’t apply to everyone so speaking in absolutes is debatable. I think it’s easy to forget that there is a segment of the population that don’t run engineered teams and I’m certain the correlation between people running non-engineered teams and those that would consider this build is pretty high.

Obtena.7952:

Sure, but that doesn’t apply to everyone so speaking in absolutes is debatable. I think it’s easy to forget that there is a segment of the population that don’t run engineered teams and I’m certain the correlation between people running non-engineered teams and those that would consider this build is pretty high.

Most of my guild does not run engineered teams either. Everyone is welcomed.

haviz.1340:

Oxxy.7068:

You sure? I’d like to see people fighting lupi or alpha for example in a non optimal (non zerker, not stacking boons) group without vigor, it sounds really painful.

Stacking only regen I guess.

All I gotta say is lol!

So there you go, either build FULL defensive or full offensive…don’t sit in the middle or you won’t get anything done.

Obtena.7952:

Sure, but that doesn’t apply to everyone so speaking in absolutes is debatable. I think it’s easy to forget that there is a segment of the population that don’t run engineered teams and I’m certain the correlation between people running non-engineered teams and those that would consider this build is pretty high.

Actually… if you’re pugging and have to carry extra-weight, group-support and dps are even more valuable. And i’m saying this as someone who used to pug a lot.. staying alive fighting a group of trash mobs or boss that you’re not going to kill alone does nothing but inflates your ego.

What you say is true and you wouldn’t run an AH build because of it. That’s fair but that’s not the case for everyone.

CMF.5461:

haviz.1340:

Oxxy.7068:

You sure? I’d like to see people fighting lupi or alpha for example in a non optimal (non zerker, not stacking boons) group without vigor, it sounds really painful.

Stacking only regen I guess.

All I gotta say is lol!

So there you go, either build FULL defensive or full offensive…don’t sit in the middle or you won’t get anything done.

Yep. Full defensive will get the job done, just waaaay slower.

If they had dodged life drain and life drink it would be much faster.

Yeah, about 9 minutes instead of 13 minutes.
However, we usually really don’t run engineer’d teams. Today as an example i had:
AC p1: 2 ele, 1 guardian, 1 thief, 1 necro (me).
CoF p1: 1 ele, 1 guardian, 2 warriors, 1 ranger (me).
SE p1: 2 ele, 2 warriors, 1 mesmer (me).
TA up: 1 guardian, 1 warrior, 1 elementalist, 1 thief, 1 engineer (me).
Arah p1: 3 warriors, 1 guardian, 1 elementalist (me).
Arah p2: 2 guardians, 1 engineer, 1 mesmer (?), 1 warrior (me).
Arah p3: 1 warrior, 1 guardian (me).

Edit: I just realized i didn’t use one profession for two runs, haha.

fadeaway.2807:

That might actually change if mesmers become the new condition removal + reflect meta for pve dungeons. We’ll wait and see.

Guardians, even as they are at the moment have higher dps than warriors (as long as they have fury, so basically in groups, with proper builds) why would you replace them with mesmers, who have the lowest dps of the 3, and only bring 1/2 the support.

It’s all about skill above else. You can use whatever you want where ever you want. As long as you got the knowing to pull it off. Some peoples over crying about speed isn’t always what everything is about. I play with anyone on purpose. Because it’s more real and fun to meet anyone and everyone. By doing that you’re going to have to carry now and then. So if I have to do that might as well be on my terms and no one elses.

And at the end of the day it’s about winning. And you get more credit winning with anything on hand. Then you do with winning with set teams. No one really cares about that and rather watch the under dogs. Even if it’s not as pretty some times. Which brings things back to bring what you want to bring. As long as you do you’re job and don’t end up dead half the fight. Dead dps does no dps and just waste a team slot.

On the other side if you can cheese a fight higher dps works better of course. Because damage will make things faster which is great. In fact that is more fun. But those instances can’t always be valid. Which means you need to do something else when out in the masses.

I’ve told you before Silentstorm, with the DPS your build does, I’m pretty sure you’re the one being carried, everywhere. In fact, I’d like to invite you to do some Arah runs with us some time and see how hard you’d be getting carried.

I could spend over 43% of a fight dead, and I would still have done more DPS than you, that’s how pitiful your build is.

Here’s a video of a comparison between your build and a DPS build on lupi. The DPS build easily hit over 10k with Whirling Wrath, while your build had trouble breaking 3k. That, and the DPS build actually brought useful utilities that benefits the party.

Silentstorm.7531:

And you get more credit winning with anything on hand. Then you do with winning with set teams. No one really cares about that and rather watch the under dogs.

You’re mixing real sports with PvE. I care about the underdogs when i’m watching a football game and my team/country ins’t playing (i.e.: Taiti vs Spain at confed. cup), not when i’m running thru dungeons.

Oxxy.7068:

Black Box.9312:

Dub.1273:

Someone using a good build who doesn’t know how to play is still doing much better than someone using a trash build who doesn’t know how to play.

A dead zerker deals infinitely less DPS than a live player with a suboptimal build.

There was a thread on the guardian forums, Dub made the math (i think it was him) and someone in 10/25/0/10/25 can spend almost half of most fights dead and still deal more damage than that paladin 2.crap build.

That math was even against his berserker 3.0 build. And in bad conditions for my build (can’t keep aegis, only 3 boons) i could stay dead almost 66% of the fight, still dealing more damage than him, assuming he’d stay alive all fight spamming sword autoattacks. And hell, he even uses staff.
I might do a check against that 2.5 build when i find time.

Edit: did the maths and posted on youtube, to his 2.5 build:

Oh, the 270%? more damage was even compared to his berserker 3.0 build.

Comparing 10/30/0/5/25 to 2.5 build in usual circumstances (unscathed contender up) gives me 3210 vs 19277 E-Power (i factored in a 30% modifier by rotation, assuming he’d only use gs) at 0 Might. That means 10/30/0/5/25 is about 600% as much damage as this one. When i think about his actual playstyle in comparison to mine, also thinking of group buffs it’s: 3210 vs. 33610, which means about 1100% more damage.

Edit2: I actually factored in RHS for both, GS and Sword but was at 109% critchance with it anyway. Causes a loss of less than 2%, though.

Hello everyone
Please keep this conversation polite and healthy. Thank you for your understanding.

Dempsey, I meant that by bringing a mesmer with adequate condition removal and reflects, the guardian is better able to pump the dps and still keep baseline utils like reflect.
We had similar thoughts back in the summer over on guru when mesmers received their shatter condi remove trait but it never went anywhere.

Also you guys keep saying my Ep is like 3000 wtf?
It’s between 4300-5000 depending on what I do.
I mean you all can continue but it won’t end well for you. Atleast get your numbers right though. Looks really bad you keep posting the same wrong numbers lol………….

Anyway, i’d like to see the math of your 2.5 build reaching 5k E-Power.

Dat edit.
Anyhow, on mesmers/guardians/support, i still stand on my point, if you don’t need guardians to cover extra support you’d be better off bringing thieves or eles instead.

Silentstorm.7531:

Also you were using incorrect math to begin with.

I’m using incorrect math? That’s funny, I wonder what your level of education is regarding math. But since you don’t trust me, I’ll show which calculations I used. I’ll calculate it all again and show what I did. I’ll use Dub’s assessments that we do 270%, 600% and 1100% of your damage in different situations. I trust Dub’s math regarding those calculations. And fun fact: I found out that I made a mistake calculating my previous numbers, so I can spend more % of a fight dead than I though I could.

Now, we’re going to use simple numbers, to make everything easier. Let’s say a foe has 1000hp. If I do 270% the amount of damage you do, that gives us the following equations:

• 1000 = x + y (with x my damage done and y your damage done)
• x = 2.7 * y

If we work out these equations, we get that y = 270.27 and x = 729.73. This means that’s I’ll have done ~73% of the bosses health and you’ll have done ~27% of the bosses health, provided we both don’t go down.

Let’s say the fight would take 10 seconds, provided we both would have stayed alive. (again, a simple number, not to complicate things). That means I’ll have done about 73 damage per second and you’ll have done about 27 damage per second. In order to break even, I’ll have to get defeated once I’ve done 500 damage. I will have done this after 500/73 = 6.85 seconds, or 68.5% of the fight. But this is where it gets fun (and the part I forgot last time). Let’s say I do get defeated after these 6.85 seconds. This means you’ll have done ~185 damage, meaning the boss has 1000 – 685 = 315 health left. It will take you 315/27 = 11.67 seconds to do that damage on your own, meaning that now the fight will have taken 11.67 + 6.85 = 18.52 seconds. I spent 11.67/18.52 = 63% of that fight fully defeated and still did equal damage to you.

Now, if I work the numbers for 600% of your damage I’ll find that I will have done 85.7% of the foe’s health, and you will have done 14.3%. In this scenario I can spend 83.3% of the fight dead and still do equal damage to you.

In the 1100% scenario (a fully buffed group scenario), I’ll do 91.7% of the foe’s health, while you would have done 8.3%. In this scenario (which is the scenario we usually play in) I could spend 91.0% of the fight fully defeated and still have been more useful to my group than you have been.

Now, tell me how my math is wrong, and tell me what I should adjust and I’ll gladly do so.

Silentstorm.7531

http://full.sc/1aoFzy0=4300

http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/guardian/?3.0|1.5g.0.e13.0.0|0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0|1g.7e.1g.7e.1j.7e.1g.7e.1j.7e.1g.7h|2s.d13.2t.d13.2s.d13.1p.67.2t.e13.2s.e13|k27.f6.a6.k29.5|2e.1|0.0.0.0.0|e

Above link 5000 what I did in a live stream over the weekend.

Anicetus.1253

First off, thats not your 2.5 build. Second, you’re using a website with unknown maths, rather use one of the spreadsheets around. Third, you somehow managed to add food and scholar runes.

Oh and fourth: I’d still deal about 950% more damage than you.

For Christmas, I wish that certain people would stop beating everyone down about damage builds and how to play that most people don’t care about. You create a very negative atmosphere here.

I’m curious weather Eugene’s nearly 100% crit chance guardian build would be more supportive / better dps than the omg green numbers paladin build. Since Eugene has perma chill and massive burst potential!

Food for thought, must test in game!

Greatest supporting traits:
Master of Consecrations! (Virtues VI)<— Wall of Reflect, Purging Flames CD reductions is pro
Blind Exposure (Radiance VI) + Renewed Justice!<—- Blind Spams.
Superior Aria (Honor II) <—- More aegis blocking!<—- Can’t stress that enough

I urge any new guardian who is thinking of running a “play how you want type build”, to at least include those, and give your team something if it isn’t going to be high end dps.

Anicetus.1253:

You make it sound like builds change one’s playstyle.
Do they? Do you really think so?

The builds don’t change playstyle .. but you might need to change your style if your build changes.

The problem here isn’t really pushing a build, but more of a philosophy on playing the game. The difference between means to an end or end to a means. Think about it … and realize there isn’t a RIGHT way here. The game is open. It allows people to do either, without punishment, to suit their own satisfaction. If it didn’t, it wouldn’t be game. People do not play games to satisfy the value that OTHER people get from it. That is why there will always be a segment of the population that will always play ‘bad’ builds … so instead of the crusade to berate everyone, there would be much more success in figuring out how to navigate and work with (or not work) with those players.

Can you make a DPS build with AH … hell yeah … and a good player is going to play the hell out of it too. That’s not a debatable thing. It’s not conditional on what you are doing or your skill. It’s simply a matter of IF you would be the kind of person to DO it. If someone doesn’t fall into the camp of people who proclaim a ‘correct’ way of playing, then they just might, and like it and learn from it and decide they can do better. You can’t ask for more from this type of player.

Obtena.7952:

Can you make a DPS build with AH ... hell yeah ... and a good player is going to play the hell out of it too. That’s not a debatable thing.

A good player won’t use AH.
Also yes, DPS builds with AH exist. 0/0/0/30/30 cleric guard is a DPS build too. The DPS it deals is bad, though. And a good player using an AH-DPS build still won’t deal good dps.

Cat Has Ducks.1982:

Greatest supporting traits:
Master of Consecrations! (Virtues VI)<— Wall of Reflect, Purging Flames CD reductions is pro
Blind Exposure (Radiance VI) + Renewed Justice!<—- Blind Spams.
Superior Aria (Honor II) <—- More aegis blocking!<—- Can’t stress that enough

I urge any new guardian who is thinking of running a “play how you want type build”, to at least include those, and give your team something if it isn’t going to be high end dps.

Agreed^. I know I keep going on but imo the above makes the shell of a good dungeon guardian – zerker gear and 0/15/0/10/10. I would say the least important of the above is Honor II because only retreat is that brilliant, but combined with valor on crit and 1000 hp it’s hard to argue. Next you look at what bang you can get for your buck with your remaining 35 trait points.
You look at zeal and see 10% dmg and 100 power for 10 points – bargain.
You look at radiance and see 10% dmg and 100 precision for 10 points – bargain.
Now where for the last 15?
5% greatsword damage? Bleh. Not amazing.
Grand master radiance trait? Only if using 1h..
15 in valor? Nah, you get more dps out of zeal and/or radiance regardless of weapon choice.

It’s clear to see why the most preferred spec ends up being 10/25/0/10/10 +15. Hammer users take the symbol vuln and extra symbol tick (15/25/0/20/10). 1h users finish off radiance and grab 20 virtue or 20 honor. GS have a choice because zealous blade isn’t that great and 25 points in virtue isn’t a horrible idea (personally I don’t like 20 in honor unless you’re using hammer).

Overall I like 20/30/0/10/10. It brings great consecrations, the 10 most important Honor points, blind spam, and top greatsword AND 1h dps. This means you can use GS for burst or difficult aoe and then swap to 1h higher overall sustained. The result of this is similar to the 100b burst + 1h axe sustained switching warriors do.

10/25/0/20/10 +5 is my best bet for hammer. Less overall damage, less dancing between 1h/2h, but dat protection and blast finishers. Shout out to 10 less in radiance and 10 more in honor for 2h cooldown trait, as this means 2 blasts per fire field. Less solo dps but potentially higher group dps in pugs due to the lack of other sources of might. Like I mentioned earlier though, at this point going from 10/15/0/30/10 +5 to 0/0/30/30/10 is actually only ~10% dps loss. Of course you don’t actually gain anything useful out of it but if someone absolutely must have AH then I reckon 0/0/30/30/10 with hammer might stacking is probably the least bad way of doing it. That or 10/30/30/0/0 1h but that renders the whole point of AH useless as well as your support abilities.

If you have to wear soldier gear and zerker trinkets while you learn the ropes then so be it, but the trait outline everyone is talking about is probably the best way of squeezing the most dps, group support and survivability through reflects/protection possible out of the traits.

Anicetus.1253:

A good player won’t use AH.

I kind of disagree with this. A bad player with a good build is still a bad player, so the reverse is also true (as evidenced by DnT)

Very nice topic to read, lots of useful information. Keep up the good work everyone!

Finnway.2183:

Anicetus.1253:

A good player won’t use AH.

I kind of disagree with this. A bad player with a good build is still a bad player, so the reverse is also true (as evidenced by DnT)

Okay, let me specify this.
A good player won’t use AH unless he’s doing some fancy play how you want stuff.

Anicetus.1253:

Finnway.2183:

Anicetus.1253:

A good player won’t use AH.

I kind of disagree with this. A bad player with a good build is still a bad player, so the reverse is also true (as evidenced by DnT)

Okay, let me specify this.
I won’t use AH unless I’m doing some fancy play how you want stuff.

This is what you really mean, you aren’t in the position to determine who is good or bad. No one here is. Every time someone in this thread mentions what build a good player will run, they are only speaking about themselves. Which is why someone describes what a “good player does”, it always describes perfectly what they will do.

wat.

/15chars

Anicetus.1253:

Obtena.7952:

Can you make a DPS build with AH … hell yeah … and a good player is going to play the hell out of it too. That’s not a debatable thing.

A good player won’t use AH.

The thread is about making a DPS build with AH in it. I could care less what a ‘good’ player does. Unless your going to quantify the difference in damage, your labels ‘good’ and ‘bad’ don’t mean much to me or anyone else. In fact they never will because there isn’t a boundary that defines good or bad damage. I would love to see your theorycrafting to see how you did it though.

@Aza
Exactly what I been saying too much ego going on around here.

@Finnway
Only thing that is evidence of is that Obal doesn’t exactly know what gear I have. Don’t know what set up he used. But it’s pretty obvious it’s not what I suggested.

It’s honestly more efficient to build for higher DPS. The only real reason not to build for DPS is (A) you aren’t skilled enough (which is perfectly okay; not everyone wants to be the best they can be) (B) you’re just playing for fun.

Doesn’t matter if its more efficient or not. What is lost in all this. Is people chose to do whatever they want. And no one has the right bother them because of that. I could play higher dps and in fact the first build I did. Which is even more popular then the 2.5. Was at it’s time a high dps build.

But I didn’t just want that glass cannon build. So I made a build that toned it down some. And people loved that and both to this day. The reason being is because you have a choice. Thier is no such thing as meta or perfect builds.

Which is why every single game out there including this one. Blows up meta’s soon as they appear. That guys don’t accept everyone is different. And different things work for different people. And you shouldn’t disrespect anyone because of that.

If I read everyone’s opinions correctly who are opposed to the AH damage build. Its just label it as “Non optimal, play how I want build”, and no one will bother you. We just don’t want this information spreading like the plague, advertising it as a good build.