Guild Wars 2

Obtena.7952:

So yes, if you assume the calculations on that builder are correct, I have increased my damage mitigation 100% for a loss of 10% in effective power simply swapping exotic zerker to exotic knights trinkets. My data and analysis are quite solid thank you very much.

Yet again you try to spin this with dishonest rhetoric.

Btw with knight jewelry you actually get 25% reduction, not 27.

The bottom line is you gained 12% in actual mitigation vs losing 96 RAW power and 32% crit severity. (assuming exotic jewelry)

Doubling a low base doesn’t make that big a difference, so you try to make it sound better by presenting the increase as a percentage of a percentage rather than the actual value again and again and frankly your dishonesty is so transparent it’s sad.

If I were to use your line of dishonest arguments I could easily say that since base effective power is 934 the loss of 386 effective power is equal to the loss of 41%.

DeathPanel.8362:

Yet again you try to spin this with dishonest rhetoric.

So, now I present pure numerical results you can’t dispute, you calling me dishonest. So I will take it that you agree with the numbers I cited and ignore the attack? That’s all I needed to know.

DeathPanel.8362:

Doubling a low base doesn’t make that big a difference,

Well, that’s your opinion. If someone else thinks that trading 10 % effective power is worth an increase of 14% damage mitigation, I guess you will just have to swallow your pride, accept the fact that someone doesn’t agree with you and mix their gear a little bit to get those stats.

Obtena.7952:

DeathPanel.8362:

Yet again you try to spin this with dishonest rhetoric.

So, now I present pure numerical results you can’t dispute, you calling me dishonest. So I will take it that you agree with the numbers I cited and ignore the attack? That’s all I needed to know.

DeathPanel.8362:

Doubling a low base doesn’t make that big a difference,

Well, that’s your opinion. If someone else thinks that trading 10 % effective power is worth an increase of 14% damage mitigation, I guess you will just have to swallow your pride, accept the fact that someone doesn’t agree with you and mix their gear a little bit to get those stats.

I already pointed out where your numbers were wrong so in fact your numbers are more than disputable.

Doubling a very low number doesn’t make it a large number. That’s a fact not an opinion. The fact that you blatantly and dishonestly try to spin it with rhetorical nonsense just proves you yourself don’t even believe it.

Your mixing results in a 12% dmg reduction increase in exchange for 96 less power and 32% less crit severity, that’s a fact regardless of how you try to spin it.

Im with Obtena on this one and i also understand his point making the example.

Power/critchance/crit damage is infact the exact same thing, its damage.

Toughness/vitality is healthpool.

Boon duration is both healthpool and damage.

And so on.

You wont loose out on anything when mixing gear. Just as you wont loose out on anything by not mixing gear.

The only time you should consider not mixing is when you will get stats that you dont “need” for your:

-Relative skill level
-Assignment on the battlefield
-Objective,
-Type of terrain
- Size of your task force
- Beforehand or afterhand
-Mainly pvp or pve
-Type of damage, direct or indirect
- Etc

Fo every situation there is an optimal setup and even if there is a choice of gear that might be optimal for a small portion of each encounter there will also be small and quick changes that make an other setup more optimal.

How many times havent you thought:
- I wish i had boon duration
- Why do i pack so little crit damage, that would have been a killing blow if i had more.
- Why do i have toughness when everyone runs with conditionbuilds.

Each of these thoughts reflect the need to mix stats.

Just try to be a frontline pusher in zvz in pure berserkers! Personally i use a mix of soldiers, berserkers, valkyrie and knights, topped off with divinity runes and just swap 2-3 pieces when i want to go more glassy.

If mixing stats was bad that would mean i have a very poor setup in gear? I can just respond with a huge LOL.

I would even go so far and say mixing gear is almost a must if you want to have max leverage ratio, when investing in your build.

Brutaly.6257:

You wont loose out on anything when mixing gear. Just as you wont loose out on anything by not mixing gear.

Oh, but you do lose when not mixing gear.
Defense being non-linear as it is, it means if you don’t invest a minimum on it, you’ll die much faster than someone who spent a few points in it.

Also, by game design, spending points in Attack is a lesser gain than spending in Defense, so not getting a minimum defense is a terrible idea.

Going full Berserk is always a bad idea unless you’re sure what you’re doing, that is, you know you won’t get hit or you’ll be in a controlled environment (PvE, Dungeons).

Also, in WvW/PvE, Critical Damage has a different weight depending on the slot it’s in, so mixing gear allows you to minimize the impact it’ll have on your remaining attributes.
Getting Critical Damage on the Legs for example is bad, each point there costs 16 attribute points. Getting it on the gems is the best option, each point there costs 5 attribute points.
So, the larger your Critical Damage is, the more expensive it becomes in your other attributes.

Not to mention that Critical Damage by itself isn’t a strong attribute unless you’ve got a high enough Critical Chance (probably around 50%?) so it becomes better than Power/Precision.

Brutaly.6257:

I would even go so far and say mixing gear is almost a must if you want to have max leverage ratio, when investing in your build.

Doesn’t need to go so far, it’s true after all…

Also, words of the wise (careful, one of the statements below is false):

DeathPanel.8362:

Guardians will never compare to any of the dps classes in dmg anyway so there’s no point in speccing for damage.

The extra damage squeezed out with a full zerker spec (and I’ve tested it with a full zerker set) doesn’t outweigh the lost utility in support and survivability.

IMHO, just go all Celestial.

Then there’s no mixing of gear. =]

Case solved.

Now we just need celestial armor and weapons :P

DeathPanel.8362:

Your mixing results in a 12% dmg reduction increase in exchange for 96 less power and 32% less crit severity, that’s a fact regardless of how you try to spin it.

Um, you must have some difficulties comprehending at this point … I AGREE with those results. They are close to the values I also obtained. The disagreement isn’t based on the actual values of some example I present you. That would be pedantic.

The disagreement is if whether your statement that “mixing is terrible” is true or not. Not sure what the barrier is here … is it that hard to understand that statement is just your OPINION and it’s not something you can prove? I’m going to assume at this point, you just won’t get it, even though I and others have attempted to demonstrate the error of your interpretation.

I can only think that continued attempts to explain the difference between facts and opinion to you will only lead to your further ridicule so for your benefit, this will be the last post I make responding to you. Have a good one.

I run an AH, symbol healing/dps build with staff, mace/torch. 10 pieces of my gear is zerker.

I’m still tanky, can pump out a potential 10k burst every 22 seconds, have steady dps, provide constant healing to my group w/o having to invest in healing power, condition removal/boons with shouts, and CC.

It all depends how you synergize and build your guardian. Our survivability will always come from protection buff, aegis, shelter, renewed focus, and blinds before our toughness, vit, healing power, and heals are taken into effect.

Obtena.7952:

DeathPanel.8362:

Your mixing results in a 12% dmg reduction increase in exchange for 96 less power and 32% less crit severity, that’s a fact regardless of how you try to spin it.

Um, you must have some difficulties comprehending at this point … I AGREE with those results. They are close to the values I also obtained. The disagreement isn’t based on the actual values of some example I present you. That would be pedantic.

The disagreement is if whether your statement that “mixing is terrible” is true or not. Not sure what the barrier is here … is it that hard to understand that statement is just your OPINION and it’s not something you can prove? I’m going to assume at this point, you just won’t get it, even though I and others have attempted to demonstrate the error of your interpretation.

I can only think that continued attempts to explain the difference between facts and opinion to you will only lead to your further ridicule so for your benefit, this will be the last post I make responding to you. Have a good one.

It’s interesting you NOW agree with my numbers when just a few posts back you were using wrong numbers regarding mitigation. (27 vs 25% on knight mix, neglecting the crit severity difference.)

You are just trying to change the topic away from your initial numbers which were wrong/misleading now that I’ve pointed out the real numbers twice.

You’ve also shown your dishonesty by trying to spin the mitigation by saying it’s 100% more when that sounds better than just stating the base fact, which is it’s a 12% increase. (It’s not even 100% technically even if you do take the percentage of the percentage)

Ultimately it does come down to preference, but one thing that can’t change is the actual numbers, which your initial posts were wrong and blatantly dishonest on.

Brutaly.6257:

Also, words of the wise (careful, one of the statements below is false):

DeathPanel.8362:

Guardians will never compare to any of the dps classes in dmg anyway so there’s no point in speccing for damage.

The extra damage squeezed out with a full zerker spec (and I’ve tested it with a full zerker set) doesn’t outweigh the lost utility in support and survivability.

Yeah he contradicts himself and dont see it. I think there is something personal.

There’s no contradiction here. I never supported the full zerk spec for guards. I merely stated that if you wanted to go in one direction, then go all the way. Mixing/matching is not optimal and just makes you mediocre in both areas and defeats the purpose.

And it’s hypocritical for you to call me a troll when I’ve been on topic the whole time while you’re the one that injected yourself into the discussion along with Danicco who is a self admitted troll who is just mad I find him irrelevant.

The fact that he spent all that time diving into the archives just so he can find one paragraph of mine to take out of context shows who has the real personal problem here.

Unlike most of you, I actually tested in real gameplay with the setups mentioned here in real instance runs and wvw to come to my conclusions.

You can dispute my conclusions but you can’t dispute the numbers.

I’ve explained why based on the numbers it’s a bad idea to mix. If you think otherwise then that’s your prerogative.

the word “full” implies that you actually talking about a mix of berserker and something else. That is contradictory imo when you state that mixing gear is terrible.

Mixing ber/knights/sold/valkyrie/cleric/etc isnt terible in any way or form its suboptimizing by definition not to mix. read what danicco wrote above about crit damage and how to get the max out of the gear you wear. It actually demands mixing gear if your not into 100% berserker armor and trinkets.

And no you aint on topic, you nitpick on an example, which in full displays what he tries to say, and avoid the issue, you stating that mixing gear is terrible.

This is a forum and as such any discussion is open to join. if you want to have stuff held in private, keep them in the private. I suggest TS/pm as suitable means of communicating.

I base my experience on hundreds of builds and thousands of hour of gameplay in wvw and tpvp and ofc on 146 in IQ. But frankly using arguments like that has nothing to do with the validity of the argument. there are literally hundreds of people in this game that spent more time ingame and still cant even read.

The numbers where examples to make a point and as such they are valid. As i said, wear knights gear instead and swap to a couple of berserkers if you cant understand the example he tries to communicate. Basically just invert his example and you will find what he tries to communicate to you.

Im not disputing the numbers, they explain what he tries to tell you, im disputing your ability to actually interpret the numbers.

No you havent explained in numbers, Obtena did, you just didnt manage to invert the example to understand it.

Brutaly.6257:

the word “full” implies that you actually talking about a mix of berserker and something else. That is contradictory imo when you state that mixing gear is terrible.

You seriously saying “full zerker spec” implies I’m talking about a mix?

I can understand you want to try to twist my statements to fit your failed argument but you should’ve chosen something less unambiguous than that.

Lol.

I have mix of knight and soldier in my armor, and Berseker/Valkyrie and Cavalier in my trinkets with berseker weapons and im pretty happy with my stats, i do a pretty kittenage and never feel squish.

So +1 to mix, i dont like full berseker in my Guardian

This is my stats with mix gear, no food buffs, the build is a 15/30/20/5 AH.

GonzoNeo.4965:

I have mix of knight and soldier in my armor, and Berseker/Valkyrie and Cavalier in my trinkets with berseker weapons and im pretty happy with my stats, i do a pretty kittenage and never feel squish.

So +1 to mix, i dont like full berseker in my Guardian

This is my stats with mix gear, no food buffs:

That used to be my spec a long time ago actually.

After some playtime I’ve come to the conclusion that mix while very decent is not as good as full knights for AH. (The 300 vit from traits should be sufficient to not be squishy for knight. But in zerk gear you’ll take a lot of damage from hits)

You should give full knights a try. (Use retributive armor)

You can free up a sigil of accuracy for sigil of bloodlust for a power boost since you gain a lot more precision from full knights with retributive armor.

Btw, are you really using soldiers items in that screenshot? Your hp is low for that unless you are only using 1 piece soldiers, in which case I question the reason for doing so since the health gain is minimal.

4 Knights, 2 soldiers and i can reach 3K attack, 3K armor, 15K HP.

Without soldiers i lost almost 1K of health and about 80 power, and i alredy have 3K armor with my mix to win about 100 armor that i dont need and lose other stats more important.

I dont like the idea of using a full set in guardian when you can mix gear and reach better overal stats, i used full knight already time a go but after use a good mix of gear now i had much better stats.

Now i have 3K armor and 15KHP wich is pretty tought for a guardian with AH without lost much offense, 3K attack, 45% critic and 90% damage.

I recommend people spent sometime in buildcraft or gw2skills to test mix gear, you spent much more time getting your gear and pick “full knight” is more comfortable but the overall stats are better to me.

GonzoNeo.4965:

4 Knights, 2 soldiers and i can reach 3K attack, 3K armor, 15K HP.

Without soldiers i lost almost 1K of health and about 80 power, and i alredy have 3K armor with my mix to win about 100 armor that i dont need and lose other stats more important.

I dont like the idea of using a full set in guardian when you can mix gear and reach better overal stats, i used full knight already time a go but after use a good mix of gear now i had much better stats.

Now i have 3K armor and 15KHP wich is pretty tought for a guardian with AH without lost much offense, 3K attack, 45% critic and 90% damage.

I recommend people spent sometime in buildcraft or gw2skills to test mix gear, you spent much more time getting your gear and pick “full knight” is more comfortable but the overall stats are better to me.

You didn’t actually get better “overall” stats by spreading it around. You simply made tradeoffs in one area to gain in others. Mixing gear does not actually really give you net increase in stats.

Using online calculators may show you the numbers but live testing is where you actually see the effectiveness of those numbers in various areas of the game.

The main question is, does your setup result in a more effective character for what you are doing in game, or are you just basing your decisions on what looks good on an online skill calculator?

Quick side question, what sigil are you using on your weapons?

DeathPanel.8362:

You didn’t actually get better “overall” stats by spreading it around. You simply made tradeoffs in one area to gain in others. Mixing gear does not actually really give you net increase in stats.

He did if he traded expensive Critical Damage (Legs, Chest, Rings for example) or DR-reduced Toughness for something else.

DeathPanel.8362:

Using online calculators may show you the numbers but live testing is where you actually see the effectiveness of those numbers in various areas of the game.

Math doesn’t lie. People do.
I’m going to quote someone here for a better example:

DeathPanel.8362:

You can dispute my conclusions but you can’t dispute the numbers.

Danicco.3568:

Math doesn’t lie. People do.
I’m going to quote someone here for a better example:

DeathPanel.8362:

You can dispute my conclusions but you can’t dispute the numbers.

Still trolling and taking people’s words out of context I see.

I didn’t dispute his numbers. I disputed the conclusion that he made based on his numbers.

Really you can play with combinations and stats until the cows come home.

One of my buildcraft builds has 17.3k effective power… does it work in practise? not really no.

On one hand it’s often a waste of effort to overc-omplicate things – if I’m switching to a particular play style I don’t want to spend 20 minutes loading in 3 different accessory types and 4 different armour types. I might also choose something less than optimal just so I have the flexibility to switch certain traits in and out without having to run back to a trait master.

Also if I want to explain a build to someone I’ll keep it simple to illustrate the principle and let them switch bits out to suit their ideals and play style. It really isn’t worth putting a great deal of energy into arguing over.

You take a good baseline build and you adapt it to the every-changing situation. WvW for instance varies considerably over the course of a day and depending on which map you are on and who the dominant opponents are. On my server, morning borderlands favour high dps builds but by lunch time you’ll want to start cranking up the tankiness or healing capabilities- by evening you’re in a full raid support build ( and in the upper tier EB you can rarely get away with something squishy ).

I think I have about 6 armour sets and 3 accessory sets and 3 of every weapon in my inventory by now, purely so I can adapt to the situation.

There are optimal builds and there are relevant builds – you just have to work out which is best for you ( and the best way to do that is to test them yourself )

Looking at the screenshots posted, are these builds pve/damage orientated?

Fenrir.3609:

Looking at the screenshots posted, are these builds pve/damage orientated?

Mine is wvw oriented. I’ve also run up to 48 fractals with it successfully.

DeathPanel.8362:

Fenrir.3609:

Looking at the screenshots posted, are these builds pve/damage orientated?

Mine is wvw oriented. I’ve also run up to 48 fractals with it.

So pve and dmg roam in wvw then?

I just wondered because the emphasis on stats seems somewhat different to the heal power based control bunker/support meta i’m a bit more used to.

Fenrir.3609:

DeathPanel.8362:

Fenrir.3609:

Looking at the screenshots posted, are these builds pve/damage orientated?

Mine is wvw oriented. I’ve also run up to 48 fractals with it.

So pve and dmg roam in wvw then?

I just wondered because the emphasis on stats seems somewhat different to the heal power based bunker/support meta i’m a bit more used to.

No solo roaming. AH is not good at that. Although I could 1v1 or 1v2 or even 1v3 depending on what builds and classes I’m facing if need be. I try to always stay with a group. My guardian is also my commander tagged character so it wouldn’t make sense for me to roam. My roamer are my necro, ranger, and theif.

This is strictly for zerg vs zerg. I use sup sigil of bloodlust on my staff, gs, and shield. Sup sigil of strength on scepter.

It’s very tanky and gs with high bloodlust stacks really wrecks people. You gain roughly 114 free precision from having retributive armor and high toughness from knights which is good for crits.

I thought about taking out the soldiers for the x2x2×2 boon setup but I noticed in large wvw fights conditions really stack up quickly and being able to remove multiple conditions at once with soldiers/pure of voice vs having longer boon duration is more important for survival.

I have the x2x2×2 setup on my cleric set.

DeathPanel.8362:

I didn’t dispute his numbers. I disputed the conclusion that he made based on his numbers.

It looked like you questioned the effectiveness of numbers show in calculators by saying they’re somehow different from the paper and live testing.
Live testing has variants (player skill) but when it comes down to numbers, it’s still 100% accurate.

It’s actually really easy, even if you don’t have the actual DpS for each profession, you do know Effective Power, which works as a summary of attack from a build.
Take your Effective Health, and working with % (because we don’t know the real numbers) we can get how many TIME (arbitrary unit) it will take for build A to kill build B.

With this you can check how your build would fare against other types (Knights, Soldiers, Mixed) and you’ll get your real build effectiveness (don’t forget to add Healing potential as Health as well).

So, let’s say a full Berserk Guardian will kill me, a full Soldier Guardian, in 10 TIMEs. But I will kill him in 6 TIMEs. The only way to overcome this is to make up for 4 TIMEs by outplaying me.
However, in a strict fight of dealing/taking damage, I’m sure to come victorious. I just have to work to not get outplayed =)

That’s the way of making awesome builds (and winning in PvP).

DeathPanel.8362:

Still trolling and taking people’s words out of context I see.

Honestly, I thought that was sooo fun…

Brutaly.6257:

And no you aint on topic, you nitpick on an example, which in full displays what he tries to say, and avoid the issue, you stating that mixing gear is terrible.

DeathPanel.8362:

You seriously saying “full zerker spec” implies I’m talking about a mix?

I can understand you want to try to twist my statements to fit your failed argument but you should’ve chosen something less unambiguous than that.

Lol.

Is there such thing as vindication by demonstrations of oblivity? (That’s right, I made up that word) That’s how I feel now. Thank you everyone. If the point wasn’t made through some logical approach, it’s now solidified by common experience of respected players.

Obtena.7952:

The examples I presented demonstrated only one thing, that the hypothesis that ‘mixing is terrible’ is not something that can proven and therefore, can’t be presented as an absolute factual statement. Therefore, providing that as guidance IS terrible. The accuracy of the numbers is actually completely irrelevant. Are they wrong or right? Neither answer goes to the point that was clearly demonstrated.

Wrong. “mixing is terrible” is my conclusion that I arrived at through data and reasoned arguments that I’ve outlined. Others may come to a different conclusion based on the same data and arguments and I couldn’t care less because they are entitled to their own opinions.

The reason that it’s not objectively disprovable or provable is because it’s an opinion. ie mine. I had never stated it was the absolute objective truth. The only thing in this game that are objective truth are the stats and numbers of the builds.

You were just being a contrarian trying to prove someone’s opinion wrong much like Danicco, which is why you’re frustrated now.

Obtena.7952:

Brutaly.6257:

And no you aint on topic, you nitpick on an example, which in full displays what he tries to say, and avoid the issue, you stating that mixing gear is terrible.

DeathPanel.8362:

You seriously saying “full zerker spec” implies I’m talking about a mix?

I can understand you want to try to twist my statements to fit your failed argument but you should’ve chosen something less unambiguous than that.

Lol.

Is there such thing as vindication in demonstrations of oblivity? (That’s right, I made up that word)/ That’s how I feel now. Thank you everyone. If the point wasn’t made through some logical approach, it’s now solidified by common experience.

Demonstrations of “oblivity” If there is, you’ve just shown it.

Danicco.3568:

DeathPanel.8362:

I didn’t dispute his numbers. I disputed the conclusion that he made based on his numbers.

It looked like you questioned the effectiveness of numbers show in calculators by saying they’re somehow different from the paper and live testing.

Wrong.

“Using online calculators may show you the numbers but live testing is where you actually see the EFFECTIVENESS of those numbers in various areas of the game.”

DeathPanel.8362:

No solo roaming. AH is not good at that. Although I could 1v1 or 1v2 or even 1v3 depending on what builds and classes I’m facing if need be. I try to always stay with a group. My guardian is also my commander tagged character so it wouldn’t make sense for me to roam. My roamer are my necro, ranger, and theif.

This is strictly for zerg vs zerg. I use sup sigil of bloodlust on my staff, gs, and shield. Sup sigil of strength on scepter.

It’s very tanky and gs with high bloodlust stacks really wrecks people. You gain roughly 114 free precision from having retributive armor and high toughness from knights which is good for crits.

I thought about taking out the soldiers for the x2x2×2 boon setup but I noticed in large wvw fights conditions really stack up quickly and being able to remove multiple conditions at once with soldiers/pure of voice vs having longer boon duration is more important for survival.

I have the x2x2×2 setup on my cleric set.

So you’d get more sustain and more group sustain via a more traditional small group/spvp bunker meta spec. But in a larger group blob/zerg that is overkill (less focus) and as such you can drop it for more dps.

Fenrir.3609:

DeathPanel.8362:

No solo roaming. AH is not good at that. Although I could 1v1 or 1v2 or even 1v3 depending on what builds and classes I’m facing if need be. I try to always stay with a group. My guardian is also my commander tagged character so it wouldn’t make sense for me to roam. My roamer are my necro, ranger, and theif.

This is strictly for zerg vs zerg. I use sup sigil of bloodlust on my staff, gs, and shield. Sup sigil of strength on scepter.

It’s very tanky and gs with high bloodlust stacks really wrecks people. You gain roughly 114 free precision from having retributive armor and high toughness from knights which is good for crits.

I thought about taking out the soldiers for the x2x2×2 boon setup but I noticed in large wvw fights conditions really stack up quickly and being able to remove multiple conditions at once with soldiers/pure of voice vs having longer boon duration is more important for survival.

I have the x2x2×2 setup on my cleric set.

So you’d get more sustain and more group sustain via a more traditional small group/spvp bunker meta spec. But in a larger group blob/zerg that is overkill (less focus) and as such you can drop it for more dps.

Essentially yes.

Although I would argue that the only way to go more sustain/group sustain in this build is to spec clerics and boon runes.

This build can also go boon runes its just that in large fights quickly stacking conditions is more of a threat in my opinion than not having as long on boon duration.

How’s that any different?

If the calculator shows you X, it’s X.
If you’re going to hit or miss this X, that’s effectiveness and that’s solely up to you.
Calculators won’t do anything with player skill.

My point remains. You can’t dispute numbers. A better build is always a better build.

DeathPanel.8362:

You were just being a contrarian trying to prove someone’s opinion wrong much like Danicco, which is why you’re frustrated now.

And no, I respect opinions and I discuss statements.

You said yourself about how mixing is bad and how you consider that a FACT (supposedly, based on statistics and examples – which I seem to have missed it).
This is a false statement and that is why I argue against it.

Danicco.3568:

How’s that any different?

If the calculator shows you X, it’s X.
If you’re going to hit or miss this X, that’s effectiveness and that’s solely up to you.
Calculators won’t do anything with player skill.

My point remains. You can’t dispute numbers. A better build is always a better build.

The calculator may show X, but you won’t know how well X does until you test it.

20k life may seem good on paper, until you find out you have 1.7k toughness and take far more damage for example.

Numbers are numbers, but the effectiveness of numbers in one area compared to effectiveness of numbers in a different area is another story.

The point is, what weight does one put on numbers in one area vs another.

Is 12% mitigation worth 96 power and 32 crit severity for example.

Is 30% mitigation worth 200 in attack and 60 crit severity.

Which is better?

You won’t know the answer to these questions by crunching numbers on a calculator because in a build there’s always tradeoffs in stats. When you emphasize one you lose in another.

You find out by actual gameplay testing.

DeathPanel.8362:

Is 30% mitigation worth 200 in attack and 60 crit severity.

Which is better?

You won’t know the answer to these questions by crunching numbers on a calculator. You find out by actual gameplay testing.

Ah, more sweet vindication. I love it. Now, the value of mixing is dependent on who is behind the keyboard testing it (which is what I’ve been saying since my first post) …

… and it’s absolutely terrible (a statement you seem to have stuck by until now).

While I don’t believe both of those things can be true, the explanation should be mindboggling. I’m staying tuned to see it.

Obtena.7952:

DeathPanel.8362:

Is 30% mitigation worth 200 in attack and 60 crit severity.

Which is better?

You won’t know the answer to these questions by crunching numbers on a calculator. You find out by actual gameplay testing.

Ah, more sweet vindication. I love it. So now, mixing is dependent on who is behind the keyboard testing it instead of being absolutely terrible? It’s not both.

Do you not ever bother to read?

My point is I’ve done these tests unlike you, and have come to the conclusion that mixing is a bad idea. If you disagree, then cite your reasons.

Or, you can continue to troll as you’ve just done here and embarrass yourself further.

I’ve also done those tests. My results were different because the resulting conclusion can only be an opinion.

Everyone that plays does those tests … when they experiment with making builds and tweaking them to see what works for them. The only thing you have done is prove that mixing is bad FOR YOU. It’s a matter of personal capability and preference. That’s OK, I don’t mind if you want to pretend you are the only person here that has ‘tested’ things and the rest of us have no clue how to play. It’s rather entertaining.

Obtena.7952:

I’ve also done those tests. My results were different because the resulting conclusion can only be an opinion. In fact, everyone that plays does those tests … when they experiment with making builds and seeing what works for them. That’s OK, I don’t mind if you want to pretend you are the only person here that has ‘tested’ things and the rest of us have no clue how to play. It’s rather entertaining.

That’s strange, with that condescending tone and the whole time you were trying to dismiss my opinion it looks like you are the one that is doing the pretending. It is afterall only my opinion that “mxing is terrible” yet you’ve dedicated a dozen posts to try to dismiss it. (And failed)

That’s what would be known as classic projection. Entertaining indeed.

DeathPanel.8362:

It is afterall only my opinion that “mxing is terrible” …

AND a refresher …

Obtena.7952:

DeathPanel.8362:

You’re welcome to prove me wrong by actually posting your equipment and trait build on this thread as a response to the OP regarding AH builds or zerk gear since that is what the actual topic is.

I’m not here to prove you wrong since I don’t regard your opinion as facts. I’m offering an an opinion to the OP with the reasoning why. I don’t see anything wrong with mixing. If people didn’t mix, they wouldn’t have builds that appeal to them and fit their comfort level. The OP should mix and experiment to find a build he’s comfortable with. He’s not going to play a build he’s not comfortable with with any level of success.

Worth re-quoting since it seems relevant to your last post. So now mixing is terrible is just your opinion instead of a fact I have to disprove with builds and numbers? Good, that’s all I needed to hear.

I respect that it’s your opinion that mixing is a bad idea but it’s crap advice to someone who might not be comfortable with that build. Only the most capable Guardians I have seen play can do everything in a full zerker build. Others opinions and capabilities differ. Saying mixing is terrible can construed to be a vague insult.

If you dont support a ful berserker (which you stated that you dont) what do you support, full knights, full pvpt, full valkyrie?

Please dont say its a full mix of gear types!

DeathPanel.8362:

Danicco.3568:

DeathPanel.8362:

I didn’t dispute his numbers. I disputed the conclusion that he made based on his numbers.

It looked like you questioned the effectiveness of numbers show in calculators by saying they’re somehow different from the paper and live testing.

Wrong.

“Using online calculators may show you the numbers but live testing is where you actually see the EFFECTIVENESS of those numbers in various areas of the game.”

Conclusion, what you display is an opinion’ while Obtena is actually trying to present his *opinion and back it up with facts.

Btw what gear do you wear, i bet its a mixed one since stackng in stats in this game is pretty “terrible”

Brutaly.6257:

Conclusion, what you display is an opinion’ while Obtena is actually trying to present his *opinion and back it up with facts.

Btw what gear do you wear, i bet its a mixed one since stackng in stats in this game is pretty “terrible”

Wrong.

I’ve backed up my “opinion” with more than enough facts. I’ve even posted a screenshot of my gear and stats. So if that’s not enough evidence then nothing is.

Just because you don’t like my opinion doesn’t mean you can be dishonest and pretend I haven’t provided statistics and facts when I’ve practically done nothing but that.

Obtena.7952:

I respect that it’s your opinion that mixing is a bad idea but it’s crap advice to someone who might not be comfortable with that build. Only the most capable Guardians I have seen play can do everything in a full zerker build. Others opinions and capabilities differ. Saying mixing is terrible can construed to be a vague insult.

Funny how you state you “respect” my opinion when in the very same sentence you label it as “crap advice”.

Maybe the word “respect” has a different meaning to someone who’s been thoroughly condescending and devoid of honesty?

Yeah, that is pretty funny. I thought the thread needed some levity. Plus I though I would throw another carrot at you to see something. Let’s just say, you didn’t disappoint.

Sorry, your opinion, is not respected and crap advice and I can say that without repercussion because your opinion, is in fact, disputable. Just because mixing is terrible for you doesn’t mean that’s good advice to someone who is asking a question for build help. Bottom line .. that’s a vague insult to them.

If it wasn’t garbage advice, I wouldn’t have spent this long getting you to contradict yourself. That’s better than any build or numbers if proof you are wrong is what you are after.

Obtena.7952:

Sorry, your opinion, while it’s respected, is crap advice and I can say that without repercussion because your opinion, is in fact, disputable.

Is there such thing as vindication by demonstrations of “oblivity”? (That’s right, I used your word) That’s how I feel now. Thank you everyone. If the point wasn’t made through some logical approach, it’s now solidified by common experience of respected players.

First all sorry for my english

Well, second all, i show you numbers to show you my build, dont worry i alredy tested my guardian very well if you think that i only build a character in gw2skills and i stop play in the the image attachmnet you can see that i have a “few hours”, and no only 1 armor /weapon set and a legendary, im not a 1 man build dont worry

Second, the reason why TO ME, and repeat TO ME mix is better is a simple thought, with my mix i have 3K armor, a sweet spot to a guardian, following the thougthness formule we have:

3K armor with my mix is 40%

3.5K armor wearing full knight like your character is 47.74% damage reduction

With a 40% reduction damage i can do pretty easy high lvl fractal, arah, WvWvW and dont be a soft berseker character, if a boss hit for 15K for example i take damage for 9K and you for 7.95K, only 1 k damage difference with a pretty hard hit, i think im pretty sturdy too.

Then when i reach a 3K armor with 40% damage reduction i thought, why i should add more thougtness only to go “Full Knight” ? Why not mix and stay with a good 3K armor and add other stats that will improve my build better ?

You have 2600 Attack, i have 3000
You have 44% Critic, i have 45%
You have 30% Critic damage, i have 90%
You have 15,800 health, i have 15.015

Why lost all this offensive power to reduce 1K in a 15K hit for example ? only to go “Full knight” and add stats that i dont need ?

I was full knight once with cavalier trinkets and after this berseker trinkets, and after change for 2 months my new gear i can survive the same, i have similar HP and the difference betwen 3K armor and 3,5K is the same in a real fight, and i have a lot of more offensive power now with 3K attack and 90%CD and hit a lot of more ( GS 1 combo with 0 might stacks by traits or skills is 1500-1600->1500-1600->2400-2600 of critic damage for example ).

This is why To ME to me a good mix when you feel comfortable playing is better, i dont like adds stats only to wear a “full knight”, “full berseker” or “full weathever”, i adapt my character to my practical game, and is why i prefer mix gear until find my sweet spot playing.

And this is the image of my sets and time playing to show that my character is not only made only buildcraft/gw2skill.net but with real gameplay time.

GonzoNeo.4965:

First all sorry for my english

Well, second all, i show you numbers to show you my build, dont worry i alredy tested my guardian very well if you think that i only build a character in gw2skills and i stop play in the the image attachmnet you can see that i have a “few hours”, and no only 1 armor /weapon set and a legendary, im not a 1 man build dont worry

Good analysis. Much better argument for mix than any others here.

If it works for you, then great.

The reason I stack knights is because I gain free precision from retributive armor, which then frees me up to set up my traits and sigils in a certain way.

Also keep in mind that I run bloodlust sigils which does make up for my deficit in power compared to yours in a way. (Unless you also run it. I don’t know what sigils you run. If you run accuracy sigil then it may hurt to take it out for bloodlust for example.)

DeathPanel.8362:

You won’t know the answer to these questions by crunching numbers on a calculator because in a build there’s always tradeoffs in stats. When you emphasize one you lose in another.

You find out by actual gameplay testing.

That’s not how you use a Calculator. That’s like messing with it, developing new builds while having no idea what are you doing.

There’s two good reasons to use a calculator.

1. You want to get the best amounts of X, Y and Z, and you’d like to see which pieces you have to get for the best effect, while losing as minimum as possible in other attributes.
- Better than spending a bunch of gold then figuring “Eh, should’ve bought something else”.

2. You want to compare your build effectiveness against another.

The second one is a bit tricky because you have to think a little bit more than just watching numbers up and down.

You take your build, and see the numbers:
Attack: 2200
Defense: 3000 (38.8% damage reduction)
Health: 17500

Then you think “Humm, I can lose 200 in Defense and get 200 in Attack and 10% more Critical Chance. How much damage reduction will I get then?”
Using the calculator it tells you: 34.43%.
Me: “That’s 4.4% less reduction… is it worth taking 4.4 more points of damage every 100 damage to get a bit more damage and 10% critical? Do I think my defense is enough, do I want more attack? Based on my own game experience so far, will having _X more attack help me at the cost of some defense?"_

And that’s how people tweak their builds. Once they achieve their primary concern (example: survivability) they might find it excessive in most situations and drop it a little in favor of more attack.
Others might do the other way around.

This second option is only for those who are looking to improve their builds, it’s different from #1, and instead of wasting gold and hours testing something that can be quantified, they use the calculator based on their own experience.

“Hey, I can get 200 more Defense, 600 more Health and 25% more Critical Damage at the cost of 85 Power and a little bit (0.5%) of Precision!” – I remember thinking this when I decided to buy Runes of Divinity (and switching a few gears).

DeathPanel.8362:

The point is, what weight does one put on numbers in one area vs another.

Is 12% mitigation worth 96 power and 32 crit severity for example.

Is 30% mitigation worth 200 in attack and 60 crit severity.

Which is better?

Lengthy post incoming…

How do you compare numbers between different attributes?

Is X Power better than Y Toughness?

That’s another good use for the calculator. I’m going step by step and I want to see who can argue against numbers.

First, you input your own build there, and check the numbers:

THE HEALTH FORMULA (This can be checked in the Calculator’s FAQ)
Effective Health is exactly how much damage you can take before going down, based on your damage reduction and health.

If you have 10000 Health and 20% damage reduction, this means you need to take 12500 damage to go down.
80% of 12500 = 10000.

THE DAMAGE FORMULA
For damage, let’s assume you’d want to calculate how much damage you’d deal in 10 attacks:
Amount of Attacks * Damage * (1 – Critical Chance) = Regular Attacks
Amount of Attacks * Damage * (Critical Chance) * Critical Damage = Critical Attacks

Simplifying, it becomes:

Amount of Attacks * Damage * ((1 – Critical Chance) + (Critical Chance * Critical Damage))

We’re going to remove “Amount of Attacks” because we don’t need it, we only need one.
“Damage” is a variant that depends on our Power and the target’s armor, which according to the wiki, it has this formula:

Damage = (Weapon Damage) * Power * (Skill-Specific Coefficient) / Target’s Defense

Well, since we don’t want to do for a specific weapon nor a specific skill nor a specific target… let’s just put 1 in every of these values so we have a final value independant on weapon, skill or target. Just an amount to quantify our total Attack.

That leaves us with… Power (1 * Power * 1 / 1 = Power) only.

So, going back to our damage formula, it becomes:

Power * ((1 – Critical Chance) + (Critical Chance * Critical Damage)) (new) * Attack Modifier (such as Fiery Wrath)

This is exactly what the Effective Power in the BuildCraft is. An amount to quantify your Power, Critical Chance and Critical Damage (all 3 damage attributes), but (this is important) it’s independant of weapon, skill or target.
If we were to use specific weapon numbers, skill coefficients and target defense, this number would be much, much lower, and it would correctly represent the actual damage we get to deal against a specific target.

WHAT IS PVP?
What defines a PvP combat? In a very simplistic view and removing all player skill variants, it’s two players facing each other dealing and taking damage, and seeing who dies first.

So, since we have our “Effective Power” value and “Effective Health”, we can see how many attacks we need to down someone with: “Effective Health” / “Effective Power” = “Number of Hits to Down”

Now let’s take practical examples, with this build (my current) and a full berserker.

My build has 3320.82 Effective Power, 33160 Effective Health.
Full Berserker has 4499.74 Effective Power, 18249 Effective Health.

Berserker’s EH / My EP = How many hits I down him
18249 / 3320.82 = 5.49, rounding up cause I can’t half-attack someone, becomes 6.

My EP / Berserker’s EP = How many hits he downs me
33160 / 4499.74 = 7.36, or 8.

Remembering that our Effective Power values are astronomical currently because they haven’t been fixed for the Skill Coefficients, and the Target’s Defense is already included in the Effective Health, and this is assuming the same weapon for both.

So, a Full Berserker against me will need to work 133.33% more somehow to down me.

Notice that I used the same build (10/0/30/30/0) to avoid unknown variables. So if one build heals, so does the other.
If we were to use different builds, it’d be best to compute potential Healing per Sec for both, and specify a fight duration and see who’ll have the higher remaining health in the end.
This can’t be done regularly, and differentiates between builds.

What else can define a PvP match? Player skill. If a player outplays the other by avoiding critical skills, he’ll gain a slight advantage which can define the outcome.

CONCLUSION
What can we conclude from all this?
That we can calculate how much better one build is against another, counting only attributes (without healing, for healing some more math – and assumptions – is needed). Everything else is player skill based on: knowledge (selecting the best traits) and skill.

This proves that full Berserker is inferior to a mixed gear (you can calculate other mixed types if you want) when two players play identically.

DeathPanel.8362:

Brutaly.6257:

Conclusion, what you display is an opinion’ while Obtena is actually trying to present his *opinion and back it up with facts.

Btw what gear do you wear, i bet its a mixed one since stackng in stats in this game is pretty “terrible”

Wrong.

I’ve backed up my “opinion” with more than enough facts. I’ve even posted a screenshot of my gear and stats. So if that’s not enough evidence then nothing is.

Just because you don’t like my opinion doesn’t mean you can be dishonest and pretend I haven’t provided statistics and facts when I’ve practically done nothing but that.

No you havent.

Go back to the discussion you had about swapping some berserker for some knights and invert the arguement. Assume you are right there, then the opposite, swapping some knights for berserkers should also be true if your opinion “mixing gear is terrible” but its not. Assuming your observation is correct in the first example, you loose on swapping, then the opposite should also make you lose out on stats. Assuming you where right in the first place the opposite would apply and you would gain from swapping. Ie if you swap one piece from knights to berserker you gain dps but lose survivability and vice versa.

The above falsifies the theory that “mixing gear is terrible”.

Its not about being dishonest, im not disputing the facts, im disputing the ability to interpret the facts.

To be blunt, advising someone to not mixing gear as long as it supports:
-Relative skill level
-Assignment on the battlefield
-Objective,
-Type of terrain
- Size of your task force
- Beforehand or afterhand
-Mainly pvp or pve
-Type of damage, direct or indirect
- Etc
Is a bad advise
Once again, what gear do you use personally? Not a single piece of other armortypes?

@Danicco
Great post and it really displays the gain of using a leveraging ratio perspective when investing in stats for a particular build.

Its settled, mixing stats isnt terrible, its infact optimal when building your guardian and it ofc depends on:-Relative skill level
-Assignment on the battlefield
-Objective,
-Type of terrain
- Size of your task force
- Beforehand or afterhand
-Mainly pvp or pve
-Type of damage, direct or indirect
- Etc

Brutaly.6257:

DeathPanel.8362:

Brutaly.6257:

Conclusion, what you display is an opinion’ while Obtena is actually trying to present his *opinion and back it up with facts.

Btw what gear do you wear, i bet its a mixed one since stackng in stats in this game is pretty “terrible”

Wrong.

I’ve backed up my “opinion” with more than enough facts. I’ve even posted a screenshot of my gear and stats. So if that’s not enough evidence then nothing is.

Just because you don’t like my opinion doesn’t mean you can be dishonest and pretend I haven’t provided statistics and facts when I’ve practically done nothing but that.

No you havent.

Go back to the discussion you had about swapping some berserker for some knights and invert the arguement. Assume you are right there, then the opposite, swapping some knights for berserkers should also be true if your opinion “mixing gear is terrible” but its not. Assuming your observation is correct in the first example, you loose on swapping, then the opposite should also make you lose out on stats. Assuming you where right in the first place the opposite would apply and you would gain from swapping. Ie if you swap one piece from knights to berserker you gain dps but lose survivability and vice versa.

The above falsifies the theory that “mixing gear is terrible”.

Its not about being dishonest, im not disputing the facts, im disputing the ability to interpret the facts.

To be blunt, advising someone to not mixing gear as long as it supports:
-Relative skill level
-Assignment on the battlefield
-Objective,
-Type of terrain
- Size of your task force
- Beforehand or afterhand
-Mainly pvp or pve
-Type of damage, direct or indirect
- Etc
Is a bad advise
Once again, what gear do you use personally? Not a single piece of other armortypes?

Wrong. I did provide data to back up my arguments. This is a fact.

You happen to disagree with my conclusion, but to say I didn’t use data is factually wrong.