Guild Wars 2

Danicco.3568:

DeathPanel.8362:

You won’t know the answer to these questions by crunching numbers on a calculator because in a build there’s always tradeoffs in stats. When you emphasize one you lose in another.

You find out by actual gameplay testing.

That’s not how you use a Calculator. That’s like messing with it, developing new builds while having no idea what are you doing.

Wrong. I went a step further from the calculator and put the builds from the calculator to a real gameplay test. That’s far from not having an idea of what I am doing.

You can crunch numbers all day but those numbers only give you a tangible idea of how well a build performs. In order to actually see how it handles in game you go further and play with the build.

That’s why development cycles have QA and beta stages. Code and specs may look good on screen but you won’t know how well it handles until you actually test it.

You disagree with my conclusion which is fine and irrelevant to me, but you are attacking my methods when they are sound. That makes you incorrect.

DeathPanel, does your ego take up and extra seat at the dinner table?

Do you have any response to Danicco’s proof that mixing isn’t terrible? You must have missed it since you have posted here since he’s presented it. I’m very interested in your perspective on that since you’re someone who thinks he’s correct all the time.

Obtena.7952:

DeathPanel, does your ego take up and extra seat at the dinner table?

Do you have any response to Danicco’s proof that mixing isn’t terrible? You must have missed it since you have posted here since he’s presented it. I’m very interested in your perspective on that since you’re someone who thinks he’s correct all the time.

That’s funny coming from you.

His and your opinions are irrelevant. What I care about is actual gameplay results.

My method is sound. I reach conclusions based on actual gameplay testing where it actually matters.

Your method(and his) stops at the drawing board. I take it to live testing.

It takes a grand ego to tell someone who’s been doing testing that you haven’t that their opinion is wrong based on what you have on the drawing board when my method goes past that stage doesn’t it?

So basically, after all your experience and testing, you have nothing to say about what he’s posted because you don’t believe in anything but ingame results because that’s the most meaningful?

Great, then that dismisses any argument you have made for presenting builds and numbers from theoretical build pages. If only put merit into ingame testing, your experience and authority is no better than the guy that’s playing the game, mixing his gear

Obtena.7952:

All the testing you speak of has been done by every player in this game and our opinions are based on ours. Anyone that plays the game tests their builds every day and come to conclusions different than yours. You’re just like everyone else. You don’t stand out because you claim you ‘tested’ something.

That’s fine. Like I’ve stated many times before you are entitled to your opinions.

Your problem is your ego does not allow me to be entitled to mine.

@Danicco
Thx for taking the time to write such an excellent post but i fear that the intended recipient hasnt read it or actually didnt understand it. My suggestion is that you maybe simplify it a bit.

@Deathpanel
Personally i understand your claim, its what best for you, to stack just knights.

What i dont understand is that you state it as a universal truth when the most comprehensive post, Daniccos, in this thread mathematically actually proves beyond any reasonable doubt that in general mixing stats is infact the only way to get an optimal build when it comes to ingame performance.

Hopefully people in general sees this and dont follow your advice, even if it works for you it wont work in general.

The discussion is over for me, its kind of hopeless to carry on when you wont answer a straight forward question. Gear you use, inverting the former example etc and then it becomes futile imo.

Have a nice one.

Brutaly.6257:

@Danicco
Thx for taking the time to write such an excellent post but i fear that the intended recipient hasnt read it or actually didnt understand it. My suggestion is that you maybe simplify it a bit.

@Deathpanel
Personally i understand your claim, its what best for you, to stack just knights.

What i dont understand is that you state it as a universal truth when the most comprehensive post, Daniccos, in this thread mathematically actually proves beyond any reasonable doubt that in general mixing stats is infact the only way to get an optimal build when it comes to ingame performance.

Hopefully people in general sees this and dont follow your advice, even if it works for you it wont work in general.

The discussion is over for me, its kind of hopeless to carry on when you wont answer a straight forward question. Gear you use, inverting the former example etc and then it becomes futile imo.

Have a nice one.

My only advice for people is to actually play with their chars and put their theorycrafting to actual test in various areas of the game instead of stopping at the drawing board and declaring victory.

DeathPanel.8362:

My only advice for people is to actually play with their chars and put their theorycrafting to actual test in various areas of the game …

This makes some sense. We may have a convert. If this is your only advice, it’s safe to say the other advice you gave about mixing being terrible is worthless.

Obtena.7952:

DeathPanel.8362:

My only advice for people is to actually play with their chars and put their theorycrafting to actual test in various areas of the game …

This makes some sense. We may have a convert. If this is your only advice, it’s safe to say the other advice you gave about mixing being terrible is worthless.

My advice is that even if you don’t agree with my opinion at the very least you should test your builds.

Of course it’s not surprising for someone devoid of honesty like you to twist my words.

Afterall I remember someone who is prone to contradicting himself in the very same sentence. Yet I am the one with worthless advice?

Obtena.7952:

Sorry, your opinion, while it’s respected, is crap advice…

Is there such thing as vindication by demonstrations of “oblivity”? (That’s right, I used your word again)

Any help/hints with this build?

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fUAQJASRlYg67GFyKEf4ESmiVCBxegRZUHdpgiwQA-jkCBYLBK7JIJQTjt2NsVXRr8KIqFYqSI6SDq2bQIVKgImAA-w

or this one (I like signet mastery!):
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fUAQJASRlYg67GFyKEfIFSmiVCBtKQQYPwoMqjuK4QA-jkCBYLBK7JIJQTjt2NsVXRr8KIqFYqSI6SDq2bQIVKgImAA-w

I like the idea of long-er lasting boons and I tried to create something balanced with enough HPs without loosing any kind of chance of making a kill. I’ve just reached lv 80 some i’m still a ’youngish player when it comes to WvW.

What do you think?

DeathPanel.8362:

I went a step further from the calculator and put the builds from the calculator to a real gameplay test. That’s far from not having an idea of what I am doing.

That’s not a sign of knowing what you’re doing. What’s the base for making the build in the first place, before actually trying it out?

If you don’t know what you’re doing in the first place, the tests are useless. You could very well be using an uneffective build that you came up on a whim, tested it and thought “this is the best build for me!” when there are plenty of better options.

DeathPanel.8362:

You can crunch numbers all day but those numbers only give you a tangible idea of how well a build performs. In order to actually see how it handles in game you go further and play with the build.

This runs from both of my points of how you use a calculator. If you need to actually test in the game every build you came up to see if it’s actually good or not, what’s the point of the calculator then?

If that’s how you are using the calculator, it’s serving as nothing more than something to see what numbers you’ll be getting in your build, something which you could’ve just calculated yourself with a simple calculator.
But yeah, it’s a prettier interface and it already does the job for you, so that’s great.

DeathPanel.8362:

That’s why development cycles have QA and beta stages. Code and specs may look good on screen but you won’t know how well it handles until you actually test it.

In this particular case, the code/specs are already a mess because whoever is programming them doesn’t have a clue what he needs or what he wants, he’s just typing whatever comes to mind and testing to see if it’s actually doing the job or not.

But hey, that describes more than 90% of the programmers in the world, so you might be right…
It’s like that famous quote: “Eat kittens, millions of flies can’t be wrong.”

For those who belongs in the 10% who prefer a more logical, waste-free approach, we mix gear and we disagree with you.

(Also, in case you don’t know, QA and Betas serve to find and fix human errors, because machines don’t go wrong, people do. Your build is going to do exactly what you asked it to do, just like a machine because it can’t do anything by itself, and if there’s anything wrong with it, it’s the human part who created or used it)

DeathPanel.8362:

I am the one with worthless advice?

Yes, by contradicting yourself. Fun fact: This isn’t the first time either.

shimmerless.4560:

The “effective health” figure just takes it for granted that you’re only receiving direct damage (condi damage ignores Toughness)

Agreed, but I don’t think conditions play the biggest role in damage in the game. Most damage is direct after all…

shimmerless.4560:

and “effective power” is nonsense.

And I’d very much like to read why is that.

Yes, it normalizes as it tries to show what your Damage per Second would be, but if health pools were so low that burst would be a priority, DpS wouldn’t really matter right?

But I disagree with health pools being low because most fights with equally skilled players last 30 seconds or more.
They won’t be standing still exchanging blows nonstop, so they’ll be dodging and healing, making the fight last longer and making the DpS calculations much more accurate.

As for traits, they can’t be calculated that simple, but that’s out of the scope of the (current) discussion in the thread… which is that mixing gear types is better or worse than not mixing.

What I’m trying to present is how you can check your build compared to another Guardian’s so you can get your best Guardian build, and assuming the game is balanced between professions, you’ll have the same chances of beating them as you beat the other Guardians (build-wise).

And if you’re talking about this chart, it doesn’t compute Power at all, so it’s useless for comparing Power between builds, and Effective Power is a valid Power measurement for it.

Obtena.7952:

DeathPanel.8362:

I am the one with worthless advice?

Yes, by contradicting yourself. Fun fact: This isn’t the first time either.

Sorry, but you failed here yet again at deflection. I haven’t contradicted myself and especially not like you in the very same sentence.

Obtena.7952:

Sorry, your opinion, while it’s respected, is crap advice…

Pointing out your failure is as simple as copy/paste.
Every time you deflect and lie you give me "vindication by demonstrations of oblivity”.

Build yourself a time machine, because that’s the only way to undo your own words.

Danicco.3568:

DeathPanel.8362:

I went a step further from the calculator and put the builds from the calculator to a real gameplay test. That’s far from not having an idea of what I am doing.

That’s not a sign of knowing what you’re doing. What’s the base for making the build in the first place, before actually trying it out?

I said I went a step further from the calculators. That implies I’ve done the base build in the calculators.

Unless in your universe “going a step further” means not taking the initial step.

Obtena.7952:

The edit button is much easier.

Problem for you is that post already exists and I can always call on a copy of it.

No amount of dishonest editing by you is going to undo it.

Obtena.7952:

Sorry, your opinion, while it’s respected, is crap advice…

Thanks for admitting and reaffirming the fact for everyone that you are totally devoid of honesty though.

You give me "vindication by demonstrations of oblivity” each and every time.

I don’t actually mind you post that. It frees me of the burden to continually reminding you your advice that mixing is terrible was garbage and how you finally admitted it. You do it for me.

Obtena.7952:

I don’t actually mind you post that quote. It frees me of the burden to continually reminding you your advice that mixing is terrible was garbage. You do it for me.

Your failed mental gymnastics attempt to change the topic indicate otherwise.

Obtena.7952:

Sorry, your opinion, while it’s respected, is crap advice…

It certainly takes a special person to contradict himself in the very same sentence.

OK I failed mental Gymnastics /shrug. You were still giving bad advice to people and it’s not the first time either.

Obtena.7952:

OK I failed mental Gymnastics. You were still wrong.

Lol, it only took you several posts to admit your failure, and you choose to end it with an unprovable accusation.

Hint, unless you can prove my base numbers wrong(which you stated previously you don’t dispute), you can’t prove someone’s opinions are wrong. It just ends up being your opinion of my opinion.

You’re just frustrated that you have lost the argument because your argument was not sound in the first place.

A sound argument would’ve been: “I don’t agree with your conclusions, and here’s why…”

Class dismissed.

You seem challenged in your interpretation. It was wrong for you to give people bad advice that mixing was terrible. I actually DID present my dislike with your opinion in that format you suggested. I guess ego doesn’t equate to good memory.

Obtena.7952:

No, I don’t think i’m wrong here …. it was wrong to give people bad advice, especially if you claim your so rigourous in your tests and results.

That’s your opinion only. You haven’t demonstrated anything except a hilarious penchant for localized self contradiction.

Frankly even Danicco has demonstrated a far better argument than you since he actually used data and numbers in his arguments which you’ve totally abandoned after that initial post which had erroneous data anyway. (Claiming 27% when it’s 25%, spinning the mitigation as 100% of a percent when it’s actually 12%. Leaving out crit severity.)

How about you post a screenshot of your character build for everyone to see so we can all gaze upon your greatness seeing as how according to you my opinions are wrong and you are right?

Or are you afraid of a bit of peer review?

DeathPanel.8362:

That’s your opinion only.

It’s my opinion that giving bad advice to people is wrong? Now I can see why you have no problem doing it so often.

Does posting my builds have something to do with the opinion that mixing isn’t terrible? My builds don’t have anything to do with other players styles and capabilities so … ?

Obtena.7952:

Posting my character build has something to do with the fact that mixing isn’t terrible? I don’t even …

If you want to mix and it suits your playstyle, do it. My builds don’t have anything to do with other players styles and capabilities.

How would you demonstrate mixing isn’t terrible if you don’t have a mixed build in game that you can playtest with and come to that conclusion?

Don’t tell me your entire argument was just a contrarian joke.

You must have some sort of empirical data to back your argument. Otherwise it becomes rather worthless don’t you think?

I’ve optimized many builds for different situations by playing and tweeking my gear. If the outcome is mixed gear, then that’s the demonstration, to myself! It has no relevance to someone else that isn’t me. That’s why telling someone mixing is terrible is crap advice. It might be GREAT to them. They have to find out for themselves.

I’m just going to remind you that you already dismissed empirical data for a more ‘in-game testing’ approach.

Obtena.7952:

You can’t. It’s a matter of personal preference. That’s why telling someone mixing is terrible is crap advice. It might be GREAT to them.

Or it might not and it could be good advice. It depends on the person being told the advice and how they play.

Once again you are failing to understand. You can’t prove an opinion wrong unless the data backing the opinion is wrong.

And since you’ve already stated you don’t dispute the numbers provided. You are just talking circles around your own failed, unsound argument.

Obtena.7952:

I’m just going to remind you that you already dismissed empirical data for a more ‘in-game testing’ approach.

I’m just going to remind you that you don’t know what empirical data means.

“Empirical data: a source of knowledge acquired by means of observation or experimentation.”

That would be the DEFINITION of in game testing.

Class dismissed.

DeathPanel.8362:

it could be good advice.

Maybe, but you don’t know that prior to giving it. If someone who would benefit from mixing decides not to because of your opinion, perhaps you can see why it’s crap advice. If you told someone to jump off a bridge because there is a chance they MIGHT be an expert high diver and survive it, it would still be crap advice.

DeathPanel.8362:

That would be the DEFINITION of in game testing.

Great, then I will remind you that everyone that plays the game does this every time they play and tweek their builds that might result in mixed gear. So much for your claim that no one is testing anything.

Obtena.7952:

DeathPanel.8362:

it could be good advice.

Maybe, but you don’t know that prior to giving it. That’s why it’s crap advice.

If those are the standards then all advice would be crap advice since no one person is the exact same as someone else so what applies to one person may not apply to another.

That would make your statements, “crap advice” under your own logic.

Obtena.7952:

Great, then I will remind you that everyone that plays the game does this every time they play and tweek their builds that might result in mixed gear. So much for your claim that no one is testing anything.

Why is it you keep on trying to change the topic and strawman(I never claimed no one is testing anything) every time I point out your flawed arguments? (Rhetorical, I know why)

This was your original failed argument which demonstrated your lack of knowledge of what empirical data is.

Obtena.7952:

I’m just going to remind you that you already dismissed empirical data for a more ‘in-game testing’ approach.

“Empirical data: a source of knowledge acquired by means of observation or experimentation.”

That would be the DEFINITION of in game testing.

Class dismissed.