Guild Wars 2

I believe that in order to balance this trait to more acceptable levels of Vigor across the different Guardian builds with regards to their survivability, benefit from it and reliance upon Vigor for much of their survival the trait should be reverted back to its previous behaviour.

~ 1 second of Vigor upon critical hit, 1 second internal cooldown.

The justification.

Right now the Guardian bunker builds have access to near permanent Vigor with the trait in the form of 5 seconds of Vigor upon critical hit with a 5 second cooldown.
5 seconds is a pretty long duration and with a weapon like a Scepter or with multi hit skills like Symbols or a Staff even a bunker build with 4-8% crit rate will land at least 1 critical hit every 5 seconds.

This is too much Vigor for an already very survivable build.

But what about DPS Guardians?

They need Vigor, they rely heavily upon it for survivability, nerfing Vigorous Precision would be too harsh on DPS Guardians and force the most pigeonholed profession into an even smaller box.

Well, if it goes back to the original form of 1s for every crit then DPS Guardians should retain their near permanent Vigor while being squishy as a trade-off.

Fair balancing

Also, changing Vigorous Precision to 1s Vigor for 1 crit, able to proc once a second would be a small buff to DPS Guardians with Altruistic Healing, who have taken a fair few nerfs while many of their more difficult enemies have seen buffs since.

Bringing the old Vigorous Precision back would help to make the Altruistic Healing build a viable alternative to the triple Meditation build, offering DPS Guardians the option to use some team support utilities, instead of purely self healing.
Build diversity!

TL:DR
Change Vigorous Precision back to 1s Vigor on crit, 1s internal cooldown.

- Nerfs perma Vigor on bunker Guardians
- Keeps high Vigor access for squishy DPS Guardians
- Brings back the AH DPS Guardian (In sPvP)

One of the reasons bunker guardian can bunk is because of selfless daring. If vigor is nerfed then so will selfless daring. I do not approve of anything being perma such as vigor, however I suspect guardian would have trouble being able to bunk after its changed.

I rather prefer it remain the way it is because honestly if you ever used hammer or Mace it would be a nerf to those weapons. All this is going to do is make guardians more of a free kill to other classes that kite and condi spam us for a living. I guess Anet’s direction wants us to be buff bots and and characters not being able to hold our own ground. Even though Ele is a better boon bot than Guardian, and they are a receiving nice buffs that will obviously push them far ahead of us. Anet doesn’t care about guardians and lack enthusiasm. As someone who has played the class over 4.5k hours, with every patch i start to play my guards less and less, and soon enough it’s just going to be a nail in the coffin because we’ll be pigeon holed into bunker builds if we obviously want to survive the spamming of range, with lack of soft CC, mobility, and being melee based(ranged weapons outside of PvE blows I’m sorry to say), and build diversity broke. /end overreaction

Please Devs give us a sign or a post you’re actually listening, it feels like you only post once or twice in this sub-forums just for the appearance, and leave us dry with false hope for the class, and disguising buffs as significant changes when they’re not(2 of them are okay at most). Please post more often and give feedback to all us guardian players.

I don’t feel its the end of the world if they nerf it, however there has to be compensations in other areas. Maybe mobility? Or CC? Who knows.

But anything that is perma and spammable is not good for the game.

Aza.2105:

I don’t feel its the end of the world if they nerf it, however there has to be compensations in other areas. Maybe mobility? Or CC? Who knows.

But anything that is perma and spammable is not good for the game.

This is true, though, what I thought that was always offset to balance and reward was that since we’re melee we have to be in range and keep whacking at the person that’s kiting us while taking damage from condi, direct damage and all. They don’t like that the trait is easily accessible that’s fine but there’s a line here. if you move it up into masters or grandmasters minor then you’re pigeonholing guardians into that trait line. If they rework it there’s a great chance they will wreck survivability since selfless daring would give less heals. Funny thing too is this would place Warriors as better sustainer then we are, because the only thing we would have left after nerfing our vigor is protection. and blocks with Aegis. Retaliation was nerfed without compensation for our DPS in the past.

I guess it’s going to depend on this:

Josh Davis.6015:

Guards, for example, have less access to condition removal than they did in the previous ‘bunker meta’ because of the fix to Pure of Voice. That said, with the proposed changes in the Dec 10th patch, I think we may see even more teams opt for bunker support outside of guardian. Not because guardian is sub-optimal, but because other professions will be able to fill that roll with varying flavor. (Engineer might be able to debunk points easier than other bunkers, but provides little AoE stability. Engineer support is seeing a buff so we could see some interesting things there as well…)

The trait will change in order to allow other professions to be competitive as mid/bunker support.
I’m a bit afraid of this, because Vigorous Precision is a keystone on guardian bunkering and likely to be overnerfed, ruining the class. It’s also fairly important for other build attempts, which really should get some kind of compensation.

I don’t know. I’ll be OK with all of this as long as other changes are made in order to make us competitive in other roles like close bunker or assaulter. If we remain pidgeonholed and we also have to share our food, it’s going to be disgusting.

Vargamonth.2047:

If we remain pidgeonholed and we also have to share our food, it’s going to be disgusting.

Pretty much this. Guardian is already getting stiff competition as a bunker support with the likes of shout heal/bunker regen warriors as it is; if they continue to open up their niche build to other classes it’s going to destroy the class entirely unless they grant it more versatility. Buffing sword damage by another 5% isn’t going to cut it when we have to sacrifice so much survivability for it only to still be unable to chase a fleeing enemy effectively anyway.

Lucentfir.7430:

Aza.2105:

I don’t feel its the end of the world if they nerf it, however there has to be compensations in other areas. Maybe mobility? Or CC? Who knows.

But anything that is perma and spammable is not good for the game.

This is true, though, what I thought that was always offset to balance and reward was that since we’re melee we have to be in range and keep whacking at the person that’s kiting us while taking damage from condi, direct damage and all. They don’t like that the trait is easily accessible that’s fine but there’s a line here. if you move it up into masters or grandmasters minor then you’re pigeonholing guardians into that trait line. If they rework it there’s a great chance they will wreck survivability since selfless daring would give less heals. Funny thing too is this would place Warriors as better sustainer then we are, because the only thing we would have left after nerfing our vigor is protection. and blocks with Aegis. Retaliation was nerfed without compensation for our DPS in the past.

It only feels like the class is being pigeonholed because there is a over reliance upon vigorous precision.

The first thing Anet will have to do is remove the dependency guardian has upon it, then work from there. I felt from the beginning of the game dodging was abused, because of endurance restoration. From the looks of it, other forms of mitigations with cooldowns such as block, evades and protection should of been the main sources of mitigation. With dodge being the last and most powerful form of mitigation, a complete negation of incoming damage when timed right.

From the beginning they should of put the dodge mechanic in check, but they let it go on for a year. Classes doing infinite dodges, heck in pvp people dodge for absolutely no reason at all. Why? Probably because its so easy to recover endurance. If there was no way to recover it and you really only had 2 dodges to use back to back, then I bet people would use it more wisely.

Aza.2105:

Lucentfir.7430:

Aza.2105:

I don’t feel its the end of the world if they nerf it, however there has to be compensations in other areas. Maybe mobility? Or CC? Who knows.

But anything that is perma and spammable is not good for the game.

This is true, though, what I thought that was always offset to balance and reward was that since we’re melee we have to be in range and keep whacking at the person that’s kiting us while taking damage from condi, direct damage and all. They don’t like that the trait is easily accessible that’s fine but there’s a line here. if you move it up into masters or grandmasters minor then you’re pigeonholing guardians into that trait line. If they rework it there’s a great chance they will wreck survivability since selfless daring would give less heals. Funny thing too is this would place Warriors as better sustainer then we are, because the only thing we would have left after nerfing our vigor is protection. and blocks with Aegis. Retaliation was nerfed without compensation for our DPS in the past.

It only feels like the class is being pigeonholed because there is a over reliance upon vigorous precision.

The first thing Anet will have to do is remove the dependency guardian has upon it, then work from there. I felt from the beginning of the game dodging was abused, because of endurance restoration. From the looks of it, other forms of mitigations with cooldowns such as block, evades and protection should of been the main sources of mitigation. With dodge being the last and most powerful form of mitigation, a complete negation of incoming damage when timed right.

From the beginning they should of put the dodge mechanic in check, but they let it go on for a year. Classes doing infinite dodges, heck in pvp people dodge for absolutely no reason at all. Why? Probably because its so easy to recover endurance. If there was no way to recover it and you really only had 2 dodges to use back to back, then I bet people would use it more wisely.

it wouldn’t be a problem if the class didn’t have very low base HP, low mobility, Melee based and reliant on boons. Protection can do wonders for you but it’s not enough to survive with today’s classes, Condis can still eat through it, and with low HP easy to burst unless you spec into honor. Engies, Rangers, Warriors, Mesmers, Necros, Thieves and great eles(current ele) all can kill a guardian with ease. You can go Zerker guardians and win some. But if there’s a vigor change and it gets reworked it’s going to kill the build since you’d die in a heart beat, after two dodges(Even with the blocks after it’s over you’re going to die and it’s a dps loss and pressure is lost from your target.)

it makes sense for mesmer to get the vigor nerfed because for image creation it makes a defensive trait into a very offensive one at the same time creating so many clones to shatter with even though i don’t support nerfing mesmer vigor, it’s something to point out.

More skilled opponents there’s always a reason to dodge, but people who dodge for no reason will die regardless, because it’s easy to count how many times one has dodged and within a window of time you have because they have vigor.

My fear is that they’ll nerf our vigor trait/rework which is vital to survival of the guardian class as a whole, and we’ll easily end up as free kills even more, because we’re easy to kite, we have poor mobility, low HP. Look at it this way we’ll be a melee based Necro without Death shroud, 8k less HP, no soft CC to stick, and meh damage. if it’s supposedly a better change, fine. I’ll play on my warrior for a majority of the time, and let all the other guardians see how much it’s going to hurt the class.

Lucentfir.7430:

Aza.2105:

Lucentfir.7430:

Aza.2105:

I don’t feel its the end of the world if they nerf it, however there has to be compensations in other areas. Maybe mobility? Or CC? Who knows.

But anything that is perma and spammable is not good for the game.

This is true, though, what I thought that was always offset to balance and reward was that since we’re melee we have to be in range and keep whacking at the person that’s kiting us while taking damage from condi, direct damage and all. They don’t like that the trait is easily accessible that’s fine but there’s a line here. if you move it up into masters or grandmasters minor then you’re pigeonholing guardians into that trait line. If they rework it there’s a great chance they will wreck survivability since selfless daring would give less heals. Funny thing too is this would place Warriors as better sustainer then we are, because the only thing we would have left after nerfing our vigor is protection. and blocks with Aegis. Retaliation was nerfed without compensation for our DPS in the past.

It only feels like the class is being pigeonholed because there is a over reliance upon vigorous precision.

The first thing Anet will have to do is remove the dependency guardian has upon it, then work from there. I felt from the beginning of the game dodging was abused, because of endurance restoration. From the looks of it, other forms of mitigations with cooldowns such as block, evades and protection should of been the main sources of mitigation. With dodge being the last and most powerful form of mitigation, a complete negation of incoming damage when timed right.

From the beginning they should of put the dodge mechanic in check, but they let it go on for a year. Classes doing infinite dodges, heck in pvp people dodge for absolutely no reason at all. Why? Probably because its so easy to recover endurance. If there was no way to recover it and you really only had 2 dodges to use back to back, then I bet people would use it more wisely.

it wouldn’t be a problem if the class didn’t have very low base HP, low mobility, Melee based and reliant on boons. Protection can do wonders for you but it’s not enough to survive with today’s classes, Condis can still eat through it, and with low HP easy to burst unless you spec into honor. Engies, Rangers, Warriors, Mesmers, Necros, Thieves and great eles(current ele) all can kill a guardian with ease. You can go Zerker guardians and win some. But if there’s a vigor change and it gets reworked it’s going to kill the build since you’d die in a heart beat, after two dodges(Even with the blocks after it’s over you’re going to die and it’s a dps loss and pressure is lost from your target.)

it makes sense for mesmer to get the vigor nerfed because for image creation it makes a defensive trait into a very offensive one at the same time creating so many clones to shatter with even though i don’t support nerfing mesmer vigor, it’s something to point out.

More skilled opponents there’s always a reason to dodge, but people who dodge for no reason will die regardless, because it’s easy to count how many times one has dodged and within a window of time you have because they have vigor.

My fear is that they’ll nerf our vigor trait/rework which is vital to survival of the guardian class as a whole, and we’ll easily end up as free kills even more, because we’re easy to kite, we have poor mobility, low HP. Look at it this way we’ll be a melee based Necro without Death shroud, 8k less HP, no soft CC to stick, and meh damage. if it’s supposedly a better change, fine. I’ll play on my warrior for a majority of the time, and let all the other guardians see how much it’s going to hurt the class.

Thats what I meant when I said dependency. Outside of dodging, guardian’s survivability would be sub par. Its true mesmers have clone spam which is a form of defense indirectly. Guardian doesn’t have such a thing, they are very straight forward.

It’s true that evade spam, like any other spam, is unhealthy for the game. However, while I’m OK with spam being toned down, I don’t think we need nor deserve a nerf on our surivival.

If they want to debunk us, there’s no need to do it through our defense capabilities, we also have tons of support that can be nerfed.
Our best conditions removals (Pure of Voice and Absolute Resolution)? AoE. Stability sources? AoE too. Protection sources? Mostly AoE. Shouts, Symbols, Consecrations, …
2 out of 3 elite skills we have are support, and the remaining one, Renewed Focus, recharges our virtues which are also half supportive.

The more allies, the stronger support becomes, so we have always performed in the teamfight point, which is where we are more effective.
If we need to be balanced to be on par with less supportive specs for this job, then there’s no chance for us to shine on close/far or wherever smaller scaled fights happen.

It’s not rocket science, most selfish builds run meditations for something.

The warrior can crit for 30K with his greatsword. I can dodge roll through every single attack. That’s the trade-off. Take away my “unhealthy for the game” perma vigor, you better give me 100 blades level burst.

Why is this even a thread??? Guards have so little that is OP, just don’t talk about it and maybe we can keep it.

It’s a thread because the devs have mentioned that this trait is on their radar as they think Guardians in general have access to too much Vigor with this trait.
They are currently removing and toning down a lot of Vigor access for 6 professions.

In the future when they come to look at Vigorous Precision I would hate to see it moved away from a 5 point trait as that would destroy a lot of basic survivability for squishy Guardians in a DPS build.

So, by moving it back to 1 second of Vigor on crit it becomes balanced for the different Guardian builds.

Those that are more squishy and do DPS will keep their high Vigor access which they rely on for survivability by landing many crits.

Bunkers however, will not gain as much access to Vigor which is a fair trade off for high Toughness and Healing power, it helps to balance the Cleric’s build dodge rolling spam with Selfless Daring.

I’m raging a little bit internally, but can’t think of any elegant way to word my rage. They’re looking at “fixing” the accessibility of Vigor for the two professions who need it most. For us, that trait is one of the only things that makes DPS builds viable both in WvW and in sPvP. I assume the same applies to PvE.

If they move it to the first Major, it’s going to hurt us a lot in WvW (especially if you play an AH or group-based DPS build), but we should be able to give up either RHS or Inspired Virtue for it for sPvP. That’ll hurt, a lot. But it’s a possibility. I’m of course speaking from a triple medi DPS perspective.

If they move it to the next Minor, it’ll severely damage DPS meditation Guardians in sPvP, and will hinder some WvW builds. They’d also have to find a new place for SD, so I sort of doubt they’ll move it there… if it gets replaced with the last Minor of Honor, that’s obviously a bad deal for any DPS build, especially medi builds and those built around blind botting for groups in WvW.

As an sPvPer, I wouldn’t mind seeing it moved to the second Minor of Valor, replacing Courageous Return. As a WvWer, I would hate to see that happen because it would hurt support-type builds that invest heavily into Virtues and Honor.

It’s a tricky situation. I don’t know how to properly rebalance it without something relatively bad happening to us in either WvW or sPvP. For that reason, I’m pretty scared of them changing it at all, unless it’s to revert back to the original functionality to reduce availability to bunkers and let DPS builds keep most of it.

Maybe they should redesign sigil of stamina instead. That sigil is the reason why I don’t care too much if they nerf the vigor in guardian.

Aza.2105:

Lucentfir.7430:

Aza.2105:

I don’t feel its the end of the world if they nerf it, however there has to be compensations in other areas. Maybe mobility? Or CC? Who knows.

But anything that is perma and spammable is not good for the game.

This is true, though, what I thought that was always offset to balance and reward was that since we’re melee we have to be in range and keep whacking at the person that’s kiting us while taking damage from condi, direct damage and all. They don’t like that the trait is easily accessible that’s fine but there’s a line here. if you move it up into masters or grandmasters minor then you’re pigeonholing guardians into that trait line. If they rework it there’s a great chance they will wreck survivability since selfless daring would give less heals. Funny thing too is this would place Warriors as better sustainer then we are, because the only thing we would have left after nerfing our vigor is protection. and blocks with Aegis. Retaliation was nerfed without compensation for our DPS in the past.

It only feels like the class is being pigeonholed because there is a over reliance upon vigorous precision.

The first thing Anet will have to do is remove the dependency guardian has upon it, then work from there. I felt from the beginning of the game dodging was abused, because of endurance restoration. From the looks of it, other forms of mitigations with cooldowns such as block, evades and protection should of been the main sources of mitigation. With dodge being the last and most powerful form of mitigation, a complete negation of incoming damage when timed right.

From the beginning they should of put the dodge mechanic in check, but they let it go on for a year. Classes doing infinite dodges, heck in pvp people dodge for absolutely no reason at all. Why? Probably because its so easy to recover endurance. If there was no way to recover it and you really only had 2 dodges to use back to back, then I bet people would use it more wisely.

It makes sense that this dependency could be replaced, but I think it needs to be done simultaneously as in concieve of viable replacements before doing anything. Otherwise, that’s like saying “this starving guy is dependent on only bread and water and has a poor diet so let’s take away his bread and water while we think of something better”.

Which is what it looks like, honestly.

Balance is a fragile thing and needs to be done slowly. I don’t believe in experimenting on the player base and hoping for the best. Dodging being so critical with damage mitigation is a gamewide problem and needs to be addressed as a whole.

Christos de Soufre.3802:

I’m raging a little bit internally, but can’t think of any elegant way to word my rage. They’re looking at “fixing” the accessibility of Vigor for the two professions who need it most. For us, that trait is one of the only things that makes DPS builds viable both in WvW and in sPvP. I assume the same applies to PvE.

If they move it to the first Major, it’s going to hurt us a lot in WvW (especially if you play an AH or group-based DPS build), but we should be able to give up either RHS or Inspired Virtue for it for sPvP. That’ll hurt, a lot. But it’s a possibility. I’m of course speaking from a triple medi DPS perspective.

If they move it to the next Minor, it’ll severely damage DPS meditation Guardians in sPvP, and will hinder some WvW builds. They’d also have to find a new place for SD, so I sort of doubt they’ll move it there… if it gets replaced with the last Minor of Honor, that’s obviously a bad deal for any DPS build, especially medi builds and those built around blind botting for groups in WvW.

As an sPvPer, I wouldn’t mind seeing it moved to the second Minor of Valor, replacing Courageous Return. As a WvWer, I would hate to see that happen because it would hurt support-type builds that invest heavily into Virtues and Honor.

It’s a tricky situation. I don’t know how to properly rebalance it without something relatively bad happening to us in either WvW or sPvP. For that reason, I’m pretty scared of them changing it at all, unless it’s to revert back to the original functionality to reduce availability to bunkers and let DPS builds keep most of it.

Agreed – pretty much what I outlined in this thread

I can’t really see any way of moving it without damaging build variety or nerfing the very thing they are trying to buff currently

Unless they plan to up our sticking to targets, hp, or cc I do not see a reason to change this. Unlike many vigor traits on the nerf chopping block this one like Mesmer’s requires you to hit the target. It has almost no use in kiting and is pretty much the only thing between surviving and dying repeatedly as a power/burst guardian. Nerf it and you put the nail in the coffin for power builds which no surprise they are trying to buff. Lets cut the BS a second here. This is another case of Spvp “OMG guardian bunker is too strong” (it really isn’t)overshadowing everything else about the class. The sad part is it isn’t like bunker wasn’t nerfed recently. It is not like other classes bunkers have not been buffed. And worst of all its not like this isn’t the same spvp tunnel vision that has strangleheld this game for the past year rearing its ugly head.

This, “My class is getting nerfed so your’s should too.”, mentality is nasty. Guardian have been in what the devs call a “good spot” for months now. The honest truth is our burst builds outside PvE are easy to avoid. We have the most issues sticking to targets. We have one of the most hectic playstyles with our low hp while dealing with the condition meta which hilariously we can not build to be a part of. Our AoE (outside staf auto) is a joke. Ranged weapons are just….sigh.

I really am not complaining but this weak scope in class balance is killing this game.

Considering the big picture is vigorous precision really so strong it is imbalanced vs the rest of the field? I mean really with boon corruption, boon stealing, and the ridiculous number of conditions is it really imbalanced?

After some thought today and reading the name of the trait, I thought the way they might rework this trait is making it refill endurance every time you crit and setting a ICD of 1 sec. How would that sound? This is just a thought if they really do intend to nerf/rework our trait.

You wan’t to know what is so kitten funny about this intendeed nerf?

This is one of the only things Guardian has that people whine about. Ever seen people whine about Guardian being fast, No.

Ever heard people whine over Guardian CC be that soft or hard, No.

Ever hear people whine about our offensive Conditions, No.

All that people whine about is our Vigor and they are going to remove the only good component we have, don’t see this the wrong way. In any other casses it might have been overpowered. But for Guardian it is not, why?

Cause all our other traits are pure and utter bullkitten. When a Guard pick traits they ponder if they want to get a slap in the face or a number two in our face. Those are currently our options.

I wouldn’t worry about them changing this trait. If they nerf our access to vigor, they will probably do so across the board. Except for warriors.

Class balance in GW2 is like Arenanet trying to solve a Rubik’s Cube. But the only side they are working on is warrior and they don’t see how scrambled the other sides keep getting.

PraetorMortis.8610:

I wouldn’t worry about them changing this trait. If they nerf our access to vigor, they will probably do so across the board. Except for warriors.

Class balance in GW2 is like Arenanet trying to solve a Rubik’s Cube. But the only side they are working on is warrior and they don’t see how scrambled the other sides keep getting.

I would worry.

Tyler Chapman.1832:

The Guardian and Mesmer vigor traits are something that were on the table and will be on the table for change in the future. We don’t like those traits being that easily accessible. While they haven’t yet been changed as long as our thoughts don’t change internally they are part of the vigor rework we want to do.

Yes we should worrie. Vigor or to be precise Vigorous Precision, is one of our only good and i will admit(easily) accessed traits. But it is also our only way to gain vigor, besides kill myself utility.

I don’t mind as long as they give us other ways to avoid having to dodge. For instance, the mace 3 can act like the mace 2/sword 5 for warriors when it comes to range. Shield 5 doesn’t turn you into a statue or it can make you invulnerable if you have to channel it etc. Sword 3 can be used while moving so opponents won’t just side step around you while launching their own counter attack.

This wouldn’t necessarily make up for the loss of vigor, but it’s the small things that add up into guardians massive need for it.

Arenanet balance team destroy my desire to play wvw (and i only play wvw in this game) only balancing this game around sPvP.

Balance team need new crew, urgent, need real pvp employee (not only in this game) and who play all professions and understand it.

They are destroying the already bad designed guardian, and they are unbalancing this game more and more in wvw. All for a unsuccessful sPVP mode.

Surely it’s a good thing as it encourages people to dodge roll more, I feel for pve it would impact a lot of builds

So basically they are just going to slowly strip away all our defenses till this is the worst class in the game. I am not really sure how one is supposed to mele with such low health or regen like we have withou dodging. GJ Anet

Relentliss.2170:

So basically they are just going to slowly strip away all our defenses till this is the worst class in the game. I am not really sure how one is supposed to mele with such low health or regen like we have withou dodging. GJ Anet

Guardian won’t be the worst class, that title belongs and will belong to elementalist.

Relentliss.2170:

So basically they are just going to slowly strip away all our defenses till this is the worst class in the game. I am not really sure how one is supposed to mele with such low health or regen like we have withou dodging. GJ Anet

Try playing a thief. No aegis, no reflects, no stability (ds doesn’t count), only a few ways to get vigor and they are all being nerfed.

When you look at a guardian vs. a thief, of the two I’d expect the thief to be able to maintain near perma vigor. Dodging is literally all they have. I’d say vigorous precision needs a rework to slightly tone it down.

purgatoryz.6038:

Relentliss.2170:

So basically they are just going to slowly strip away all our defenses till this is the worst class in the game. I am not really sure how one is supposed to mele with such low health or regen like we have withou dodging. GJ Anet

Try playing a thief. No aegis, no reflects, no stability (ds doesn’t count), only a few ways to get vigor and they are all being nerfed.

When you look at a guardian vs. a thief, of the two I’d expect the thief to be able to maintain near perma vigor. Dodging is literally all they have. I’d say vigorous precision needs a rework to slightly tone it down.

Aegis is 1 block on a 30-90 sec cd, Reflection is only on Wall of Reflection, the rest are bubbles that absorb projectiles. In all sense Vigior is essential to survival. Thieves have cripples, shadowsteps and stealth, which are also survival tools, so add on to all the dodge spamming such as endurance recovery per dodge, they can really spam the living hell out of it.. Guaridans have bad mobility, and lack of soft CC to stick to others, low health pool and melee based. It’s also our only trait/ skill that gives us vigor as well aside form “Save Yourselves!” The way we have to build too is we have to sacrifice either being tanky to be able to actually kill someone, or sacrifice DPS just to survive longers against other classes.

@ haviz After Decemeber 10th it won’t since they’re giving ele love, and promoting build diversity.

It seems unlikely that any vigor changes will be made before the end of the year. I think they’d like to limit vigor’s impact on player vs plaver encounters but understand that dodge rolls are essential in PvE and the devs must find a way to satisfy both areas of the game.

I think it is more likely that we will see vigor have its duration reduced in WvW/sPvP much like the other split skills in the game.

purgatoryz.6038:

Relentliss.2170:

So basically they are just going to slowly strip away all our defenses till this is the worst class in the game. I am not really sure how one is supposed to mele with such low health or regen like we have withou dodging. GJ Anet

Try playing a thief. No aegis, no reflects, no stability (ds doesn’t count), only a few ways to get vigor and they are all being nerfed.

When you look at a guardian vs. a thief, of the two I’d expect the thief to be able to maintain near perma vigor. Dodging is literally all they have. I’d say vigorous precision needs a rework to slightly tone it down.

You get reflects from DS, and you get projectile block from Smoke screen…. If you want to trade Aegis for your stealth I am sure we would be more than happy… Also, you have dodges on your weapon skills, along with stuns, along with defensive teleports. but please, keep complaining.

Did a Thief just complain about damage avoidance?

Dude.

Yes, yes he did. Guess the perma stealth thief never encountered another perma stealth thief. Oh wait a min, that actual make sense.

My mom says “if you don’t have anything nice to say (about the balance team), don’t say anything at all”.

nuff said.

Amins.3710:

My mom says “if you don’t have anything nice to say (about the balance team), don’t say anything at all”.

nuff said.

My mom teached me to stand up for the weak instead of standing at the side doing nothing.

“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing”

^^ You missed the point. /golfclap

Perikittenor.1892:

Yes, yes he did. Guess the perma stealth thief never encountered another perma stealth thief. Oh wait a min, that actual make sense.

Perma stealth is dead Dec. 10. I also have a guardian with a few hundred hours so I’m not “the thief”, lol.

For starters, I was referring to PvE as well. Any change has to be considered there as well, though it’s slightly less important.

So your argument is based on one of two possible cases. Either this trait is critical to the guardian’s playstyle in PvP or it isn’t.

If this single five point trait is that vital to survival, as you say, then I’d have to objectively look back and ask “why is such a vital, class defining trait at this tier?” If that’s the case, the class designers have somehow failed. So there’s an issue. Perhaps it warrants moving up? Perhaps other skills need to be buffed, but either way there’s an issue.

On the other hand, if VP isn’t that important (and I doubt anyone would agree with that), it’s probably fine and warrants no attention.

The fact that this thread has been created and this issue comes up time and time again leads me to believe the situation in the former, not the latter.

Edit: A few other less rude posters have hit this on the head, I think. A guardian shouldn’t have to rely on dodges to mitigate as much damage as they do currently. Not only is dodging a generic, clkitten mechanic but it doesn’t really fit the mantra. Maybe we need moooaaar Aegis!

purgatoryz.6038:

Perikittenor.1892:

Yes, yes he did. Guess the perma stealth thief never encountered another perma stealth thief. Oh wait a min, that actual make sense.

Perma stealth is dead Dec. 10. I also have a guardian with a few hundred hours so I’m not “the thief”, lol.

For starters, I was referring to PvE as well. Any change has to be considered there as well, though it’s slightly less important.

So your argument is based on one of two possible cases. Either this trait is critical to the guardian’s playstyle in PvP or it isn’t.

If this single five point trait is that vital to survival, as you say, then I’d have to objectively look back and ask “why is such a vital, class defining trait at this tier?” If that’s the case, the class designers have somehow failed. So there’s an issue. Perhaps it warrants moving up? Perhaps other skills need to be buffed, but either way there’s an issue.

On the other hand, if VP isn’t that important (and I doubt anyone would agree with that), it’s probably fine and warrants no attention.

The fact that this thread has been created and this issue comes up time and time again leads me to believe the situation in the former, not the latter.

For someone that has apparently played so much guardian you seem to be lacking some key points. The reason VP is so vital is because we lack pretty much any defense in our offensive lines, and our “superior base defense” everyone seems to claim we have is crap. Aegis can we wiped off with the smallest of hits (or in thief’s case, doesnt do anything because you stay in stealth and just to to re-backstab), VoR is extremely poor regen compared to other professions possible regen, and heavy armor doesn’t mean much when people can still hit 5-6k + on 3k armor.

purgatoryz.6038:

A guardian shouldn’t have to rely on dodges to mitigate damage. Not only is dodging a generic, clkitten mechanic but it doesn’t really fit the mantra. Maybe we need moooaaar Aegis!

So what do they rely on then? Tanking hits like what is found in the traditional mmorpg? Blocking one attack every 30 seconds? What you are saying doesn’t really make sense.

Thief has way better mitigation than guardian, the only thing that stops thief from becoming a bunker is that their form of mitigations aren’t conducive to capturing nodes.

In old mmorpgs there is a saying about tanking, “The best form of mitigation is to not be hit at all”. A completely negated attack is always better than mitigation via absorption. And thief has that, spammable evades, a variety of escape mechanisms, stuns, dazes, immobilzes.

In comparison guardian has no cc, no escape mechanisms, just a variety of heals, and dodge. I would count aegis but its far over-rated for what it does. Its the boon that is the least available to players.

Perma stealth may be dead at dec 10, but it is not now. Nor has it been for a year +- some buffs nerfs that might have made it viable, on a second note my post was slightly for lolz and the one above me directly pointed out why thief never needed vigor.

But yes i have to agree with you that Guard should not be about dodging, they/we should be about blocking, aka Aegis. Not only is Aegis a make or breake buff. But it is also applied very scarcely for ourself and for our allies we wish to protect. Sure blocking once every 90 sec might be good against a PvE boss with the AI slightly bellow a carrot, but it is terrible against humans with more.

Once again i will note a game that made the general feeling of playing a Guard
TL2 Engineer.

There i give passive Regeneration and Passive armor increase to everyone near me, i give Aegis on certain spell activation. Eachtime i get hit i charge cores so my Aegis that i give will be stronger for each core extra i have charged up and i also apply Aegis randomly to myself trough a % chance when taking damage, Add that i can hard cc mobs for a short stun in melee, and reduce damage enemie mobs do to me. That made me feel like a Guardian, buffing and protecting my allies while standing at the front soaking most attacks.

GW2 Guardian make me feel like a Wizard that think he can do stuff in melee cause i wear plate.

Bash.7291:

purgatoryz.6038:

Perikittenor.1892:

Yes, yes he did. Guess the perma stealth thief never encountered another perma stealth thief. Oh wait a min, that actual make sense.

Perma stealth is dead Dec. 10. I also have a guardian with a few hundred hours so I’m not “the thief”, lol.

For starters, I was referring to PvE as well. Any change has to be considered there as well, though it’s slightly less important.

So your argument is based on one of two possible cases. Either this trait is critical to the guardian’s playstyle in PvP or it isn’t.

If this single five point trait is that vital to survival, as you say, then I’d have to objectively look back and ask “why is such a vital, class defining trait at this tier?” If that’s the case, the class designers have somehow failed. So there’s an issue. Perhaps it warrants moving up? Perhaps other skills need to be buffed, but either way there’s an issue.

On the other hand, if VP isn’t that important (and I doubt anyone would agree with that), it’s probably fine and warrants no attention.

The fact that this thread has been created and this issue comes up time and time again leads me to believe the situation in the former, not the latter.

For someone that has apparently played so much guardian you seem to be lacking some key points. The reason VP is so vital is because we lack pretty much any defense in our offensive lines, and our “superior base defense” everyone seems to claim we have is crap. Aegis can we wiped off with the smallest of hits (or in thief’s case, doesnt do anything because you stay in stealth and just to to re-backstab), VoR is extremely poor regen compared to other professions possible regen, and heavy armor doesn’t mean much when people can still hit 5-6k + on 3k armor.

Again, a five point trait that’s considered absolutely vital means there is a problem. VP is probably the best five pointer in the game. You need to objectively look at why that is the case, and then either address it directly or address the reasons why it is the case. (in a perfect world you’d also look at the worst 5 pointer in the game and work your way up and down, balancing as you go)

You bring up a good point. VoR is waaay too weak. It should be double, or triple, it’s current strength. I personally think the base HP gap is too wide between the heavies. Like you mentioned, the few aegis’s (aegii?) we have don’t make up the difference. Though to bring that up without a lot of qq from the warrior camp, though.

I think the issue is worth discussing. It’s certainly better than just having them nerf VP and get nothing in return, which is where we are headed.

purgatoryz.6038:

Relentliss.2170:

So basically they are just going to slowly strip away all our defenses till this is the worst class in the game. I am not really sure how one is supposed to mele with such low health or regen like we have withou dodging. GJ Anet

Try playing a thief. No aegis, no reflects, no stability (ds doesn’t count), only a few ways to get vigor and they are all being nerfed.

When you look at a guardian vs. a thief, of the two I’d expect the thief to be able to maintain near perma vigor. Dodging is literally all they have. I’d say vigorous precision needs a rework to slightly tone it down.

Wait, what? I play both a guardian and a thief, and I can say with complete certainty that it is MUCH easier to avoid damage with a thief. Every single weapon combo (with the exception of p/d, which, to compensate, features an immobilize, a cripple, a retreating shadowstep, and a stealth instead) available to thief features at least one skill that has either an evade or a blind, and they all have zero cooldown. Now add their utilities which grant them more evades, blinds, stealth, and unrivaled mobility, and you have a class that can be pretty hard to take down when utilized by a skilled player.

Now guardian, on the other hand, is apparently a class meant to be defensively oriented, in a game that discourages tanking and healing. I feel like that makes the issue here pretty self-explanatory, but if not then you can just refer to the many problems that others in this thread have already pointed out.

In the interest of balance (the bigger picture) I think VP needs a nerf, but not without getting something in return for it. It’s just too good and frequent for it’s trait cost.

I don’t think reverting to it’s original is an option. I think it’s more appropriately swapped trait position with Selfless Daring. The original option has too many unintended benefits (increase AH effectiveness, less boon stripping)

Nerfing VP will destroy Glassier builds that do not take any combination of our current meta in WvW / PvP: 30 in Valor or 15 in Honor

End of Story.

GET US OUT OF THESE 2 TREE’s…. We’ve been saying it since beta…

Do this, then a swap of VP & EP would be completely justified.

Obtena.7952:

In the interest of balance (the bigger picture) I think VP needs a nerf, but not without getting something in return for it. It’s just too good and frequent for it’s trait cost.

I don’t think reverting to it’s original is an option. I think it’s more appropriately swapped trait position with Selfless Daring. The original option has too many unintended benefits (increase AH effectiveness, less boon stripping)

There are few reasons why most offensive guardians go 30 in Radiance and 30 in Valor.

- There’s a huge sinergy (crit rate and crit damage) between this lines.
- Without proper ways to keep enemies at close range, guardian damage needs to be bursty. Meditation like Smite Condition and specially Judge’s Intervention are awesome for this.
- Meditations are our most viable selfish utilities. You can’t really expect to build a real threat slotting tons of support through shouts and/or consecrations.
Spirit Weapons are UP (and should remain that way for any kind o PvP format, we have had more than enough petting zoos) and signets, while interesting as CC sources, are pretty weak/unconsistent trait wise.
- Guardian base sustain isn’t that great, not even close, when you are next to zero healing power (it seems that our healing skills are intentionally at low HPS because we have VoR, which is like not having VoR at all :P). Monk Focus is extremely strong here, giving us a much more reasonable effective health pool.

If we had to go 15 in honor for vigorous precision (with Selfless Daring being quite useless and not having anything really interesting for 10 points in Honor besides maybe greater symbols if running a GS), then there’s no option for us to take both 30 in Radiance and Valor.
We should drop 5 points in Radiance (no way we give up Monk Focus when we are going to use Meditation anyways), making one handers far less interesting and probably building around GS.
This change alone is not really that bad. It would provide, in fact, a different flavour between the current 10/30/30/0/0 and 0/30/30/5/5 builds, which might be good for the game. However, we would also lose Inspired Virtue unless we drop another 5 points (which provide a quite important 10% raw damage increase), and that’s quite a nerf.

Without meaningful changes on different traitlines (I’m looking at you Zeal), your suggestion would only destroy even more any middle ground between 10/30/30/0/0 full burst and bunker/support builds (Ironically, bunker/supports, the arguably most OP guardian spec, engraved in the meta since launch, won’t notice the change).

Not even looking at PvE, where it would be also a serious nerf (we are quite strong in this format and we might deserve it).

Know what I’ve been saying since beta?

FIX OUR GD WEAPONS. I mean every time I cast sword 3 I break another keyboard through the rage it causes me.

do you know why people go 30 deep into valor? Because for us to survive in spvp or wvw we need that toughness since our base hp is so outta whack.

Thanks knee-jerk beta nerfs!

‘We can’t have a clad have tons of self healing and tons of damage!’ I just wish our beta versions would have had the damage and self healing warriors have right now.

I myself would love nothing more than to see a Nerf to our VP but a huge buff to Aegis applications and self sustain in exchange. Enough with this Plate class that think it is a Thief.

I know this is not a realistic game, but do they really think it was easy dodging in plate armor back in the medieval times.

Dynnen.6405:

Know what I’ve been saying since beta?

FIX OUR GD WEAPONS. I mean every time I cast sword 3 I break another keyboard through the rage it causes me.

Our weapons have several issues.

I just had a fight with another Guardian on a capture point, my Leap of Faith took me in the completely opposite direction to my target three times during the fight, resulting in it being neutralised as I leapt off the point away from him.

Utterly ridiculous and it’s been like that since beta.

They need to fix it, or just make it a teleport.