Guild Wars 2

Oxxy.7068:

DeathPanel.8362:

timidobserver.7925:

Not everyone likes it/chooses to run it, but AH is a solid choice. Running damage gear with AH usually works out pretty well in PVE.

As you will notice from the responses, some people don’t run AH so that they can gloat about not running it. However, it really is powerful in all environments of the game.

Agreed.
Not running AH and gloating about it is akin to not taking a polio vaccination and gloating about it.

Unless you are building for meditations there’s really no reason not to take AH since you can still gear for dps and still do very high dps while having high survivability.

It’s like having your cake and eating it too.

There’s just one thing… you don’t need AH.

In every MMO, dungeons runs are made with just enough support to keep everyone alive, more than that was always a waste, here the situation didn’t change. This game has a lot of mitigation thru aegis, dodges, absorptions and reflects the level of support needed in general PvE and dungeon running is minimal compared to other titles, and i know it must be a pain to realize that you’re wasting potential by running around with your favorite trait, but you gain nothing by thinking that AH is needed for anything outside PvP (while we’re at it, i prefer monk focus over AH in PvP).

You don’t NEED a lot of things.

I can run through any exp dungeon with NO traits selected.

That doesn’t mean it’s the best way.

To reuse my analogy, you don’t NEED polio vaccinations either. You can still survive just fine as a cripple.

DeathPanel.8362:

Oxxy.7068:

DeathPanel.8362:

timidobserver.7925:

Not everyone likes it/chooses to run it, but AH is a solid choice. Running damage gear with AH usually works out pretty well in PVE.

As you will notice from the responses, some people don’t run AH so that they can gloat about not running it. However, it really is powerful in all environments of the game.

Agreed.
Not running AH and gloating about it is akin to not taking a polio vaccination and gloating about it.

Unless you are building for meditations there’s really no reason not to take AH since you can still gear for dps and still do very high dps while having high survivability.

It’s like having your cake and eating it too.

There’s just one thing… you don’t need AH.

In every MMO, dungeons runs are made with just enough support to keep everyone alive, more than that was always a waste, here the situation didn’t change. This game has a lot of mitigation thru aegis, dodges, absorptions and reflects the level of support needed in general PvE and dungeon running is minimal compared to other titles, and i know it must be a pain to realize that you’re wasting potential by running around with your favorite trait, but you gain nothing by thinking that AH is needed for anything outside PvP (while we’re at it, i prefer monk focus over AH in PvP).

You don’t NEED a lot of things.

I can run through any exp dungeon with NO traits selected.

That doesn’t mean it’s the best way.

To reuse my analogy, you don’t NEED polio vaccinations either. You can still survive just fine as a cripple.

But it is the best way, perhaps i failed into explaining my point, allow me try again:
Extra survival in PvE is wasted potential that could be turned into damage, making the run faster and easier.

@Death – fair enough then. Blood did use the mace/otrch build example to out DPS a hammer build running AH. it’s hard to compare this way though since you’re both advocating different builds. at least DPS can be quantified, and only to an extent. whereas survivability, cannot be as easily quanitified, if at all.

Blood was mainly stating that with 10/30/x/x/x you get 300 precision (plus another 15% RHS), 100 power, and 20% extra damage, and would out damage a build without. and namely, if one’s build or play didn’t need AH or full 30 in valor to survive. but again, as survivability can’t be measured on paper, it’s up to the player to choose what they want to play.

i do want to say the damage increase you get from those trait changes can be quite significant. also sword auto if you’re going for highest, sustained DPS, imo.

@OP – do check out the link swiftpaw linked earlier.

that’s what some peolpe are saying though, that not having AH does not necessarily make one a “cripple”, to use your example.

just to note, i’m not against AH. in fact, i love it. every situation calls for a different build is what i believe.

Oxxy.7068:

DeathPanel.8362:

Oxxy.7068:

DeathPanel.8362:

timidobserver.7925:

Not everyone likes it/chooses to run it, but AH is a solid choice. Running damage gear with AH usually works out pretty well in PVE.

As you will notice from the responses, some people don’t run AH so that they can gloat about not running it. However, it really is powerful in all environments of the game.

Agreed.
Not running AH and gloating about it is akin to not taking a polio vaccination and gloating about it.

Unless you are building for meditations there’s really no reason not to take AH since you can still gear for dps and still do very high dps while having high survivability.

It’s like having your cake and eating it too.

There’s just one thing… you don’t need AH.

In every MMO, dungeons runs are made with just enough support to keep everyone alive, more than that was always a waste, here the situation didn’t change. This game has a lot of mitigation thru aegis, dodges, absorptions and reflects the level of support needed in general PvE and dungeon running is minimal compared to other titles, and i know it must be a pain to realize that you’re wasting potential by running around with your favorite trait, but you gain nothing by thinking that AH is needed for anything outside PvP (while we’re at it, i prefer monk focus over AH in PvP).

You don’t NEED a lot of things.

I can run through any exp dungeon with NO traits selected.

That doesn’t mean it’s the best way.

To reuse my analogy, you don’t NEED polio vaccinations either. You can still survive just fine as a cripple.

But it is the best way, perhaps i failed into explaining my point, allow me try again:
Extra survival in PvE is wasted potential that could be turned into damage, making the run faster and easier.

dps comes mostly from gear and some from trait synergy. You can go full zerk with AH build so the only difference is traits.

How much extra dps do you think you can squeeze out of traits by not speccing AH?

AH comes from the line that grants 300 toughness and 30% crit damage. (450 toughess if you take certain trait in that line)

That in itself is extra dps potential. (Roughly 14% extra damage at 50% or so crit chance)

Also, if DPS was all that mattered there would be no reason to even have a guard. I’d just get my might stacking zerk warrior and call it a day.

Survivability does actually matter in pve, just in more difficult instances like fotm. The difference between surviving with 10% life and recovering to full via AH or being downed in 1 hit is the difference we are talking about.

The point is, how much would you sacrifice in terms of utility and survivability for that tiny extra sliver of dps.

akamon.2769:

@Death – fair enough then. Blood did use the mace/otrch build example to out DPS a hammer build running AH. it’s hard to compare this way though since you’re both advocating different builds. at least DPS can be quantified, and only to an extent. whereas survivability, cannot be as easily quanitified, if at all.

Blood was mainly stating that with 10/30/x/x/x you get 300 precision (plus another 15% RHS), 100 power, and 20% extra damage, and would out damage a build without. and namely, if one’s build or play didn’t need AH or full 30 in valor to survive. but again, as survivability can’t be measured on paper, it’s up to the player to choose what they want to play.

i do want to say the damage increase you get from those trait changes can be quite significant. also sword auto if you’re going for highest, sustained DPS, imo.

@OP – do check out the link swiftpaw linked earlier.

I actually mentioned already that the extra precision is offset by the loss of 30% crit damage.

Also the fact that mace simply does lower base damage than GS and attacks slower. The symbol for GS also far out damages the mace symbol. Skill #2 for GS out damages torch 5. Skill #3 for GS is only marginally less damage than Torch #4.

This shows that skill by skill the GS out paces mace/torch by far.

It’s arguable that at best the dps difference is trivial whichever ends up higher in this scenario.

The main difference here is that my setup would still have the AH for survivability while he does not. This shows that he literally sacrificed survivability to gain little to nothing in return which was my point this entire time.

DeathPanel.8362:

akamon.2769:

@Death – fair enough then. Blood did use the mace/otrch build example to out DPS a hammer build running AH. it’s hard to compare this way though since you’re both advocating different builds. at least DPS can be quantified, and only to an extent. whereas survivability, cannot be as easily quanitified, if at all.

Blood was mainly stating that with 10/30/x/x/x you get 300 precision (plus another 15% RHS), 100 power, and 20% extra damage, and would out damage a build without. and namely, if one’s build or play didn’t need AH or full 30 in valor to survive. but again, as survivability can’t be measured on paper, it’s up to the player to choose what they want to play.

i do want to say the damage increase you get from those trait changes can be quite significant. also sword auto if you’re going for highest, sustained DPS, imo.

@OP – do check out the link swiftpaw linked earlier.

I actually mentioned already that the extra precision is offset by the loss of 30% crit damage.

Also the fact that mace simply does lower base damage than GS and attacks slower. The symbol for GS also far out damages the mace symbol. Skill #2 for GS out damages torch 5. Skill #3 for GS is only marginally less damage than Torch #4.

This shows that skill by skill the GS out paces mace/torch by far.

It’s arguable that at best the dps difference is trivial whichever ends up higher in this scenario.

The main difference here is that my setup would still have the AH for survivability while he does not. This shows that he literally sacrificed survivability to gain little to nothing in return which was my point this entire time.

i thought gs #3 hits like an auto but torch #4 hits like a truck?

Deathpanel, have I said in any of my posts that AH sucks ? I have not.

My argument is that what you state as ‘very high dps’ is not very high dps compared to builds that run Fiery Wrath and Radiant Power. So if more discussion is to be had please stick to the argument.

I don’t like to post specifics but it seems necessary here.
0/0/30/30/10 GSword Zerker – 2242 DPS
20/25/0/25/0 GSword Zerker – 3037 DPS
10/30/30/0/0 Mace/Torch Zerker – 2926 DPS (without Protectors Strike which can add up to 300 DPS if used right)
10/30/30/0/0 Sword/Torch 3243 DPS
10/30/20/0/10 Scepter/Torch w/Unscathed Contender maxed at 4K DPS

Here is an empirical data set. All tested with DPS optimized traits. Abilities were triggered so not to cut off auto attack chains. Sword of Justice, Signet of Wrath and Bane Signet used on all tests. All tested on 2600 Armor target. I don’t want to hear how skills and traits are wrong cuz you’d never run them in PvE, this is simply a comparison between some builds and weapons. Torch was used to keep Burning on the target for Fiery Wrath, Torch 5 is never used for DPS.

Please post your 0/0/30/30/10 build and play style that can add at least 24% dps to what I pull out of it. I would honestly love to run it if it could exceed 3K.

Again, I could be doing something wrong. These values are not be-all end-all and are subject to change depending on the scenario. I urge people to test for themselves.

DeathPanel.8362:

dps comes mostly from gear and some from trait synergy. You can go full zerk with AH build so the only difference is traits.

How much extra dps do you think you can squeeze out of traits by not speccing AH?

AH comes from the line that grants 300 toughness and 30% crit damage. (450 toughess if you take certain trait in that line)

That in itself is extra dps potential. (Roughly 14% extra damage at 50% or so crit chance)

Also, if DPS was all that mattered there would be no reason to even have a guard. I’d just get my might stacking zerk warrior and call it a day.

Survivability does actually matter in pve, just in more difficult instances like fotm. The difference between surviving with 10% life and recovering to full via AH or being downed in 1 hit is the difference we are talking about.

The point is, how much would you sacrifice in terms of utility and survivability for that tiny extra sliver of dps.

Percentage based modifiers are better than raw stats, i wish i had the exact formula, but sadly i don’t, i’ll just post values from that buildcraft website, without consumables, using exotic zerk gear and weapons, ascended trinkets and only one force sigil (even for S/F setups):
Running 10/30/0/5/25 with 10 might and 50% fury uptime (which seems to be the average pug values), without unscathed, we have 6584.4 effective power, with unscathed 7901.28, plus 1% from each boon you have.

Running 10/30/0/30/0, with the same 10 might and 50% fury uptime, we have 7242.84 effective power (6584.4 while your stamina is full).

Now with 15/25/30/0/0 (using greatsword or hammer instead of S/F) the effective power is 6421.28, 10 might stacks, same fury uptime (which equals to 63.8% critical chance here in case you’re curious).

So you basically lost raw DPS, fire fields and reflect lenght from master of consecrations or shout cd and some might from valor, plus cleansing from PoV (which is way better than AH in PvE, by the way) in favor of some toughness (any boss is still going to one or two shot you if you screw up) and a weak heal? Yeah, nope, you’re the one sacrifying utility in order to get AH.

Ah, if you think warriors actually deal more sustained dps than guardians…
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/guardian/Guardian-or-Warrior-2/first#post2896541 (i finally did some non-pug runs of CoE yesterday, managed to hit 5.2k x2 + 3100×3 from my sword autos on the destroyer, yum!).

Oxxy.7068:

DeathPanel.8362:

dps comes mostly from gear and some from trait synergy. You can go full zerk with AH build so the only difference is traits.

How much extra dps do you think you can squeeze out of traits by not speccing AH?

AH comes from the line that grants 300 toughness and 30% crit damage. (450 toughess if you take certain trait in that line)

That in itself is extra dps potential. (Roughly 14% extra damage at 50% or so crit chance)

Also, if DPS was all that mattered there would be no reason to even have a guard. I’d just get my might stacking zerk warrior and call it a day.

Survivability does actually matter in pve, just in more difficult instances like fotm. The difference between surviving with 10% life and recovering to full via AH or being downed in 1 hit is the difference we are talking about.

The point is, how much would you sacrifice in terms of utility and survivability for that tiny extra sliver of dps.

Percentage based modifiers are better than raw stats, i wish i had the exact formula, but sadly i don’t, i’ll just post values from that buildcraft website, without consumables, using exotic zerk gear and weapons, ascended trinkets and only one force sigil (even for S/F setups):
Running 10/30/0/5/25 with 10 might and 50% fury uptime (which seems to be the average pug values), without unscathed, we have 6584.4 effective power, with unscathed 7901.28, plus 1% from each boon you have.

Running 10/30/0/30/0, with the same 10 might and 50% fury uptime, we have 7242.84 effective power (6584.4 while your stamina is full).

Now with 15/25/30/0/0 (using greatsword or hammer instead of S/F) the effective power is 6421.28, 10 might stacks, same fury uptime (which equals to 63.8% critical chance here in case you’re curious).

So you basically lost raw DPS, fire fields and reflect lenght from master of consecrations or shout cd and some might from valor, plus cleansing from PoV (which is way better than AH in PvE, by the way) in favor of some toughness (any boss is still going to one or two shot you if you screw up) and a weak heal? Yeah, nope, you’re the one sacrifying utility in order to get AH.

Ah, if you think warriors actually deal more sustained dps than guardians…
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/guardian/Guardian-or-Warrior-2/first#post2896541 (i finally did some non-pug runs of CoE yesterday, managed to hit 5.2k x2 + 3100×3 from my sword autos on the destroyer, yum!).

Let’s assume your numbers are 100% correct.

6584.4 effective power vs 6421.28 effective power is a negligible difference.

In fact your numbers support my arguments completely.

For a difference of only about 140 effective power the build lost 450 toughness and AH survivability.

That’s the definition of sacrificing a ton of survivability for very little gain.

Surviability that you do not need, and 450 toughness is nothing compared to cleansing in pve, why is it so hard to make people like you understand this simple concept? Guess i’ll have to thank Apollo that i’m not a teacher.
Edit: Also, 6584.4 is the value without any boon, i’d love to be corrected with the value for 5 and 8 boons.

it’s definitely not a tiny sliver of DPS. in my mind, x/x/30/30/x is more or less seen as a “defensive” trait setup as opposed to an offensive set up. ot saying you won’t be doing any damage at all, it’s still very good. but compared to a guard, given same conditions, same gear, that is traiting for damage? it’s a pretty notable difference. yes crit damage is nice to have, but you still have to weigh it in.

and yes, GS 3 doesn’t hit that hard. torch 4 hits AMAZINGLY hard. torch 4 easily out dmgs, out crits any GS 3. even mace 3 out damages GS 3. but that’s beside the point – i was mainly getting at if someone wanetd to play DPS mace, they can and acn be quite effective.

again, AH would be over healing ie not needed for someone who, well, doesn’t need that healing is what people are arguing about. which is entirely doable in PvE/dungeons. but that’s not to say AH doesn’t have it’s place in dungeons, either. because i certainly believe they do.

can’t stress this enough – can’t compare apples to oranges. if not, it just comes down to personal preference and how well one can run a build.

re: 30% crit damage vs precision/power/dmg modifiers, if you must compare.
just taking effective power from gw2buildcraft, as well as the critical hit damage over time stats from gw2’s wiki…

full zerker gear, no food, no consumables, damage modifiers included:

GS
0/0/30/30/10

Power: 2145
Crit chance: 42%
Crit damage: 107%

EP: 4,303
DOT: ~1.6-1.675x

if you opt to take unscathed contender as well, which gives…

EP: 5,164

now compare it to the following. again, i take all damage modifiers, because if i’m trating for it, why not.

Sword/Focus
10/30/0/30/0

Power: 2,246
Crit chance: 68%
Crit damage: 78%

EP: 6,456
DOT: ~1.845-1.875x

i know i switched it up to the sword/focus. but if you were to stick with mace/focus or mace/torch, the damage WILL be up there as well. mace focus you have two giant AoE blasts which both crit like a truck. and you get blinds (which can add vuln, so even more dmg), as well as a ton of blocks for more than enough sustain.

not saying GS is not good either. we all know GS packs a punch. but i wouldn’t say it’s miles ahead of other weapon sets we have.

Bloodgruve.6038:

Deathpanel, have I said in any of my posts that AH sucks ? I have not.

My argument is that what you state as ‘very high dps’ is not very high dps compared to builds that run Fiery Wrath and Radiant Power. So if more discussion is to be had please stick to the argument.

I don’t like to post specifics but it seems necessary here.
0/0/30/30/10 GSword Zerker – 2242 DPS
20/25/0/25/0 GSword Zerker – 3037 DPS
10/30/30/0/0 Mace/Torch Zerker – 2926 DPS (without Protectors Strike which can add up to 300 DPS if used right)
10/30/30/0/0 Sword/Torch 3243 DPS
10/30/20/0/10 Scepter/Torch w/Unscathed Contender maxed at 4K DPS

Here is an empirical data set. All tested with DPS optimized traits. Abilities were triggered so not to cut off auto attack chains. Sword of Justice, Signet of Wrath and Bane Signet used on all tests. All tested on 2600 Armor target. I don’t want to hear how skills and traits are wrong cuz you’d never run them in PvE, this is simply a comparison between some builds and weapons. Torch was used to keep Burning on the target for Fiery Wrath, Torch 5 is never used for DPS.

Please post your 0/0/30/30/10 build and play style that can add at least 24% dps to what I pull out of it. I would honestly love to run it if it could exceed 3K.

Again, I could be doing something wrong. These values are not be-all end-all and are subject to change depending on the scenario. I urge people to test for themselves.

I don’t know how you pulled those numbers so I can’t speak to how authentic they are.

I can only point to the basic fact that you can do 10/30/30/0/0 AH build as well, which make it identical to your build in dps traits yet still retain AH. (Fiery wrath and radiant power included)

So using your own numbers, I’ve demonstrated that you don’t need to sacrifice AH for so-called higher dps.

Oxxy.7068:

Surviability that you do not need, and 450 toughness is nothing compared to cleansing in pve.

What are you talking about. In what way does having AH exclude cleanses?

@Death – with the build Oxxy quoted, sure you lose that much toughness and AH, but you didn’t take into account the difference in HP as well, which is just as important as toughness, as well as AoE cleansing. which for certain encounters is what eats you up as most direct damage can be easily negated / avoided in PvE.

akamon.2769:

@Death – with the build Oxxy quoted, sure you lose that much toughness and AH, but you didn’t take into account the difference in HP as well, which is just as important as toughness, as well as AoE cleansing. which for certain encounters is what eats you up as most direct damage can be easily negated / avoided in PvE.

I think you are confusing my build with that other guy with mace.

I have pure of voice in my build.

DeathPanel.8362:

Oxxy.7068:

Surviability that you do not need, and 450 toughness is nothing compared to cleansing in pve.

What are you talking about. In what way does having AH exclude cleanses?

Unless you’re running some sort of x/x/30/30/x you can’t cleanse, and if you do run x/x/30/30/x your dps is a bad joke (4930.71 effective power assuming 10/0/30/30/0, 4711.08 effective power assuming 0/0/30/30/10 (5653.29 with unscathed. See? Bad joke)).

o gosh. okay, okay.. so Death, you’re “okay” with a build like 10/30/30/0/0? and sure, if you’re 30 deep into valor already, why not take AH if you’re playing in a group. i was under the impression that you were advocating a 0/0/30/30/10 build with AH, can do as much damage as the other more damge centric builds listed here….

though argubly, 30 in Honor and 30 in Valor can be another debate in itself as well.

DeathPanel.8362:

I think you are confusing my build with that other guy with mace.

I have pure of voice in my build.

see, if you have pure of Voice which dictates 30 in honor, and you have 30 in valor for AH, there’s no room for you to reach numbers a build like 10/30/30 even with AH can pump out though.

[added: what Oxxy said above my posts ^^^]

akamon.2769:

o gosh. okay, okay.. so Death, you’re “okay” with a build like 10/30/30/0/0? and sure, if you’re 30 deep into valor already, why not take AH if you’re playing in a group. i was under the impression that you were advocating a 0/0/30/30/10 build with AH, can do as much damage as the other more damge centric builds listed here….

though argubly, 30 in Honor and 30 in Valor can be another debate in itself as well.

Personally I prefer the 0/0/30/30/10 variant but I was using that as an example to prove a point. The other guy’s build without AH was 10/30/30/0/0 which btw also did not have cleanse and he tried to pass that off as higher dps without AH.

That’s obviously not true since you can also take AH with 10/30/30/0/0 with radiant power and fiery wrath intact and full zerk. So the loss of AH in that case is not warranted whatsoever.

Also, purity of voice is not the sole method for condition cleanse anyway. Soldier runes can be taken to cleanse with shouts if needed.

The bottom line is, no matter how much mental gymnastics you go through, an AH variant is still the better choice unless you go the meditation route or even healway route.

akamon.2769:

DeathPanel.8362:

I think you are confusing my build with that other guy with mace.

I have pure of voice in my build.

see, if you have pure of Voice which dictates 30 in honor, and you have 30 in valor for AH, there’s no room for you to reach numbers a build like 10/30/30 even with AH can pump out though.

[added: what Oxxy said above my posts ^^^]

It would help if you actually read my post. I was using that guy’s own numbers as an example of why the dropping of AH is not warranted even in his build.

Oxxy.7068:

DeathPanel.8362:

Oxxy.7068:

Surviability that you do not need, and 450 toughness is nothing compared to cleansing in pve.

What are you talking about. In what way does having AH exclude cleanses?

Unless you’re running some sort of x/x/30/30/x you can’t cleanse, and if you do run x/x/30/30/x your dps is a bad joke (4930.71 effective power assuming 10/0/30/30/0, 4711.08 effective power assuming 0/0/30/30/10 (5653.29 with unscathed. See? Bad joke)).

Learn to read. Maybe then you’ll see I was using his build numbers to make a point.

DeathPanel.8362:

So using your own numbers, I’ve demonstrated that you don’t need to sacrifice AH for so-called higher dps.

At this point I can only /facepalm

Those builds aren’t effective with AH, you run them for the crit damage %, MF if anything. You’ve been saying 0/0/30/30/10 zerker does as much as a Fiery Wrath/Radiant power build. It simply doesn’t. You said GSword AH can beat any Mace build, it doesn’t. If you would have said a 10/30/30/0/0 AH build could be high dps then I would have agreed with you, but I don’t see that anywhere unless I missed it.

Those numbers were drawn from taking the Invulnerable Golem’s HP bar to 0 three times consecutively averaged from three tests each. I read it has 80K HP, dev posted it IIRC. 240K/‘Seconds to Kill’ = DPS. Go try yourself.

DeathPanel.8362:

I was using that guy’s own numbers as an example of why the dropping of AH is not warranted even in his build.

Being blind must suck.

Bloodgruve.6038:

DeathPanel.8362:

I don’t know how you pulled those numbers so I can’t speak to how authentic they are.

I can only point to the basic fact that you can do 10/30/30/0/0 AH build as well, which make it identical to your build in dps traits yet still retain AH. (Fiery wrath and radiant power included)

So using your own numbers, I’ve demonstrated that you don’t need to sacrifice AH for so-called higher dps.

At this point I can only /facepalm

Those builds aren’t effective with AH, you run them for the crit%, MF if anything. You’ve been saying 0/0/30/30/10 zerker does as much as a Fiery Wrath/Radiant power build. It simply doesn’t. You said GSword AH can beat any Mace build, it doesn’t. If you would have said a 10/30/30/0/0 AH build could be high dps then I would have agreed with you, but I don’t see that anywhere unless I missed it.

Those numbers were drawn from taking the Invulnerable Golem’s HP bar to 0 three times consecutively averaged from three tests each. I read it has 80K HP, dev posted it IIRC. 240K/‘Seconds to Kill’ = DPS. Go try yourself.

My point was regarding AH centered builds not specifically that one setup genius.

You wanted to try to show that there are variants without AH that out damage it. Well that’s obviously empirically false since your own numbers prove that even with 10/30/30/0/0 you can STILL TAKE AH and retain the dps AND survivability.

When you refuse to see that even your own numbers prove you wrong then there’s no hope for you.

Also I like how these other two are all of a sudden concerned about cleanses when the whole time the discussion was based on how much more useful more dps is.

People like you are simply blindly contrarian and refuse the facts even if it’s slapping you in the face. I’ve clearly stated exactly why you are wrong here with your own very data. If you still can’t see or refuse to see then there’s no help for you.

Oxxy.7068:

DeathPanel.8362:

I was using that guy’s own numbers as an example of why the dropping of AH is not warranted even in his build.

Being blind must suck.

Ironic.

If i where a couple years younger i’d waste more time here trying to make you understand how wrong you are, Death, but instead i’ll just leave you and your total ignorance in peace, have a good night. Everything i could add to this discussion is already written, that way OP or anyone else looking for some info can just read it.

I will just hope they’re not as blind as you.

Oxxy.7068:

If i where a couple years younger i’d waste more time here trying to make you understand how wrong you are, Death, but instead i’ll just leave you and your total ignorance in peace, have a good night. Everything i could add to this discussion is already written, that way OP or anyone else looking for some info can just read it.

I will just hope they’re not as blind as you.

If you were a couple of years younger you’d be in a stroller, and not able to explain anything to anyone.

Unfortunately it’s not that much better now.

DeathPanel.8362:

My point was regarding AH centered builds not specifically that one setup genius.

Sorry but I don’t buy it. 10/30/30/0/0 has AH available but I wouldn’t call it an AH centered build at all. Mace is the only option that would be even minimally effective with AH and you’ve already stated that its not a dps weapon.

there’s no need to call for personal insults now. this goes for everyone, of course.

@Death – i am reading. the thing is when you move traits around like that, inevitably other issues such as condition cleansing or HP will come into consideration. can you see that Oxxy and myself were merely stating that from our perspective, in general, the benefits of having condition cleansing is higher than having more toughness? which is, in itself, a form of sustainability / survivability as well. which is one of your main arguments, unless, if i am mistaken again. however, if conditions are a non-issue, or if you have someone in your party who can consistently AoE cleanse, then by all means, spec otherwise and leave cleansing out of the equation.

that’s the thing, Blood’s post with the different builds, including 10/30/30/0/0 was in response to you using 0/0/30/30/10 as a staple. not merely AH, because he did not say AH was bad either.

if you look back to the post i had with the numbers, which you so conveniently ignored, i was merely pointing out that with a 10/30/0/30/0 build with sword/focus the damage gained vs the survivability lost, which is what you’er concerned about, is not as nominal.

sure, if conditions aren’t an issue, then we can spec for even more DPS, which does not necessarily dictate going deep into the valor line. anothe example could be, 10/30/0/5/25. you get a lot of benefit from the virtues line, if you’re able to maintin a handful of boons on you at all time, that adds more DPS as well. having 5 in Honor and 5 in Virtues alone lends a lot to sustainability as well. and again, the DPS difference is not insignificant. i will argue that it might even be higher than a 10/30/30/0/0 build as well. and the benefits you get from going 25 deep into virtues would help your team out a lot more than the 30 in valor.

again and again – end of the day, everyone has their own preferences and liking. some builds work better for some, and others not so much. it’s all about balance. if you need more of A, then you’ll have to give up some B. how much? everyone has their own sweet spot. everyone has their own threasholds for tradeoffs. i will play any given build as long as i enjoy it if the situation calls for it, AH or no AH.

akamon.2769:

there’s no need to call for personal insults now. this goes for everyone, of course.

@Death – i am reading. the thing is when you move traits around like that, inevitably other issues such as condition cleansing or HP will come into consideration.

That’s totally irrelevant to what was being discussed.

The other guy I was responding to was making the point that survivability (ie heals from AH, hp and cleansing) is not important in pve and that “potential dps” is wasted when you don’t build for it.

I was the one making the point that sacrificing survivability for marginal gains in dps was a bad idea.

So if you were actually paying attention to this whole thread you’d realize what you just said was actually agreeing with my core point.

Bloodgruve.6038:

DeathPanel.8362:

My point was regarding AH centered builds not specifically that one setup genius.

Sorry but I don’t buy it. 10/30/30/0/0 has AH available but I wouldn’t call it an AH centered build at all. Mace is the only option that would be even minimally effective with AH and you’ve already stated that its not a dps weapon.

What you “buy” or don’t buy is irrelevant. The fact is your own post has ironically demonstrated you are wrong.

Your point all along has been that having AH in a build wastes “potential dps” to be had in a build that don’t run it.

But your own post has proven that you don’t have to sacrifice AH to gain dps and your own data proves it.

Also, its ironic that your own post has also demonstrated that given the same traits a sword/torch combo has far more dps than mace/torch, which also proves your initial choice of the mace weapon to be wrong as well.

You can deny reality all you want, but even your own words contradict you.

Bloodgruve.6038:

Comparatively a 10/30/0/30/0 Mace/Torch build with Zerker Amulet, 6x Scholar, Sigils of Force and Accuracy tested 24% higher then a 0/0/30/30/10 Hammer build with Zerker Amulet, 6x Scholar, Sigil of Force supplemented with Sword of Justice. 25/25/0/20/0 Hammer, same setup ran 20% higher. Other builds were higher then Mace/Torch.
Blood~

So here’s a few of the problems. I consider ‘AH Builds’ and ‘AH centric builds’ to be x/x/30/30/x. The OP asked about 0/0/30/30/10. From all of your posts I’ve been assuming that you were pushing the standard AH build and you also stated it was your preferred build. Nowhere in your posts, unless I missed it, did you mention any deviation from the standard build.

Simply, my argument was that a Fiery Wrath/Radiant Power build will out DPS a standard AH x/x/30/30/x all gear being equal.

DeathPanel.8362:

Sorry but if you base your build around mace damage and burning and consider that high dps then you don’t know what you are doing.

Zerk gear amplifies raw damage and a GS will easily out dps a mace/torch.
Burning damage is trivial relatively and don’t even register by comparison in that scenario.

You also keep bringing up this mace build, please re-read the above quoted post. I made no argument that Mace/Torch had the highest damage output, in fact I stated other builds were higher. They were only comparative examples.

Are people still blabbering about the miracles of AH?!

omg lol.

Bloodgruve.6038:

DeathPanel.8362:

Sorry but if you base your build around mace damage and burning and consider that high dps then you don’t know what you are doing.

Zerk gear amplifies raw damage and a GS will easily out dps a mace/torch.
Burning damage is trivial relatively and don’t even register by comparison in that scenario.

You also keep bringing up this mace build, please re-read the above quoted post. I made no argument that Mace/Torch had the highest damage output, in fact I stated other builds were higher. They were only comparative examples.

One of your arguments was that mace/torch had higher dps than GS. That’s simply false. Your own numbers show that.

Your other argument was based on the assumption that AH can only be x x 30 30 x. And while that is the most commonly used template it’s not the ONLY WAY.

Using your own build and your own numbers, which is 10/30/30/0/0 without AH, one can easily trait AH and retain 100% of the dps of that build yet gain significant survivability.

So in other words, AH with the 10/30/30/0/0 setup is simply empirically better than a 10/30/30/0/0 setup WITHOUT AH.

That goes to what I’ve been saying all along. With gear being equal, trying to take out AH or MF out of a build in order to squeeze out some extra dps via traits is sacrificing too much viability for little to no gain in dps.

The testing wasn’t able to get Protectors Strike to hit because the Golem does not hit back. PS will add up to 300 DPS to the 2926DPS which would effectively pull Mace/Torch easily on par or ahead of GSword in this scenario.

Not sure why you didn’t list any builds through this whole thread. You could have saved a lot of disagreement if in fact you had them in mind when posting.

Lastly, 10/30/30/0/0 is built for 1h weapons and aside from Mace you’ll get very little out of AH compared to the standard builds. Again, I wouldn’t consider it an AH build at all.

Bloodgruve.6038:

The testing wasn’t able to get Protectors Strike to hit because the Golem does not hit back. PS will add up to 300 DPS to the 2926DPS which would effectively pull Mace/Torch easily on par or ahead of GSword in this scenario.

Not sure why you didn’t list any builds through this whole thread. You could have saved a lot of disagreement if in fact you had them in mind when posting.

Lastly, 10/30/30/0/0 is built for 1h weapons and aside from Mace you’ll get very little out of AH compared to the standard builds. Again, I wouldn’t consider it an AH build at all.

PS is irrelevant. Not only is it conditional based on being hit, while you are in that animation you are not doing anything else.

Even assuming best case scenario and you hit with that each and every time it is up, that’s 470 base damage every 18.75 seconds. which is a pathetic 25 dps.

DeathPanel.8362:

Bloodgruve.6038:

The testing wasn’t able to get Protectors Strike to hit because the Golem does not hit back. PS will add up to 300 DPS to the 2926DPS which would effectively pull Mace/Torch easily on par or ahead of GSword in this scenario.

Not sure why you didn’t list any builds through this whole thread. You could have saved a lot of disagreement if in fact you had them in mind when posting.

Lastly, 10/30/30/0/0 is built for 1h weapons and aside from Mace you’ll get very little out of AH compared to the standard builds. Again, I wouldn’t consider it an AH build at all.

PS is irrelevant. Not only is it conditional based on being hit, while you are in that animation you are not doing anything else.

Even assuming best case scenario and you hit with that each and every time it is up, that’s 470 base damage every 18.75 seconds. which is a pathetic 25 dps.

Lol, if u use wiki numbers to calculate dps, we will be all doing less than 1k dps.
Eg sword auto attack chain:269+269+504=1042 per 2.5s
Therefore sword dps = 416.8

And nobody wants to channel protector strike for 3.75s , what they want is for it to go off asap because it has a coefficient of 1.4 which is equal to the last strike on mace auto attack.

Seriously, I think Bloodgruve arguments are more sensible than yours

Sutcliffe.5491:

Lol, if u use wiki numbers to calculate dps, we will be all doing less than 1k dps.
Eg sword auto attack chain:269+269+504=1042 per 2.5s
Therefore sword dps = 416.8

And nobody wants to channel protector strike for 3.75s , what they want is for it to go off asap because it has a coefficient of 1.4 which is equal to the last strike on mace auto attack.

Seriously, I think Bloodgruve arguments are more sensible than yours

It’s irrelevant what you think. The facts are the facts.

To figure out actual dps of skills you must factor in the cooldowns.

Even if you assume there’s no channeling of PS at all and it triggers each and every time off cooldown the dps is still a measely 31. The fact is the skill is simply not a good source of dps period and it’s ludicrous to cite it as part of an argument that mace is somehow better dps than GS.

Lol. Your logic is faulty. What matters most is that how fast the damage can be unleashed on the monster and not the cooldown because during cooldown of weapon skills, u can still use other attacks.

If i follow your logic, hundred blades will not be worth using at all , it only has a miserable 176.521 dps(2030/11.5). whereas gs autoattack has a dps 567.33 (851/1.5s) Just autoattack all the way!

Whether mace have better dps or not is dependent on built. A traited built for mace can potentially out damage a gs if the built didnt trait for gs

Sutcliffe.5491:

Lol. Your logic is faulty. What matters most is that how fast the damage can be unleashed on the monster and not the cooldown because during cooldown of weapon skills, u can still use other attacks.

That’s the point. A majority of the overall damage done in any given time segment is NOT going to be PS with mace.

If over a given duration only a tiny % of the overall damage is done by PS then it would be an insignificant factor in determining the overall dps worthiness of a weapon.

It would certainly not make any meaningful difference in determining which one has higher dps between GS and mace that the other guy tried to pass it off as.

Sorry but you are the one with the faulty logic here.

So u dun take into consideration whirling wraith and symbol of wraith in your dps calculations? If that’s the case, hammer has the best autoattack in a untraited built

As for which weapon has a higher dps, it has to be looked in a context.

If u look at it from a vacuum, gs has the higher dps compared to mace and that is expected because gs is a 2 handed weapon.

If u compare the damage between a mace using 10/30/30/0/0 built and a gs using 0/0/10/30/30 built. Then the mace is going to out damage the gs by quite alot.

Anyway if u still dun get it, then too bad.

Sutcliffe.5491:

So u dun take into consideration whirling wraith and symbol of wraith in your dps calculations? If that’s the case, hammer has the best autoattack in a untraited built

As for which weapon has a higher dps, it has to be looked in a context.

If u look at it from a vacuum, gs has the higher dps compared to mace and that is expected because gs is a 2 handed weapon.

If u compare the damage between a mace using 10/30/30/0/0 built and a gs using 0/0/10/30/30 built. Then the mace is going to out damage the gs by quite alot.

Anyway if u still dun get it, then too bad.

Sorry but you just don’t get it.

A weapon’s dps is the sum of all its skills including their cooldowns.

DeathPanel.8362:

Sutcliffe.5491:

So u dun take into consideration whirling wraith and symbol of wraith in your dps calculations? If that’s the case, hammer has the best autoattack in a untraited built

As for which weapon has a higher dps, it has to be looked in a context.

If u look at it from a vacuum, gs has the higher dps compared to mace and that is expected because gs is a 2 handed weapon.

If u compare the damage between a mace using 10/30/30/0/0 built and a gs using 0/0/10/30/30 built. Then the mace is going to out damage the gs by quite alot.

Anyway if u still dun get it, then too bad.

Sorry but you just don’t get it.

A weapon’s dps is the sum of all its skills including their cooldowns.

Perhaps u can show me how u calculate the dps of a gs with a numerical example?

Sutcliffe.5491:

DeathPanel.8362:

Sutcliffe.5491:

So u dun take into consideration whirling wraith and symbol of wraith in your dps calculations? If that’s the case, hammer has the best autoattack in a untraited built

As for which weapon has a higher dps, it has to be looked in a context.

If u look at it from a vacuum, gs has the higher dps compared to mace and that is expected because gs is a 2 handed weapon.

If u compare the damage between a mace using 10/30/30/0/0 built and a gs using 0/0/10/30/30 built. Then the mace is going to out damage the gs by quite alot.

Anyway if u still dun get it, then too bad.

Sorry but you just don’t get it.

A weapon’s dps is the sum of all its skills including their cooldowns.

Perhaps u can show me how u calculate the dps of a gs with a numerical example?

You can find any number of threads with full comparisons of guardian weapon damage in this forum and on guru.

I’m not going to waste time rehashing common knowledge.

DeathPanel.8362:

Sutcliffe.5491:

DeathPanel.8362:

Sutcliffe.5491:

So u dun take into consideration whirling wraith and symbol of wraith in your dps calculations? If that’s the case, hammer has the best autoattack in a untraited built

As for which weapon has a higher dps, it has to be looked in a context.

If u look at it from a vacuum, gs has the higher dps compared to mace and that is expected because gs is a 2 handed weapon.

If u compare the damage between a mace using 10/30/30/0/0 built and a gs using 0/0/10/30/30 built. Then the mace is going to out damage the gs by quite alot.

Anyway if u still dun get it, then too bad.

Sorry but you just don’t get it.

A weapon’s dps is the sum of all its skills including their cooldowns.

Perhaps u can show me how u calculate the dps of a gs with a numerical example?

You can find any number of threads with full comparisons of guardian weapon damage in this forum and on guru.

I’m not going to waste time rehashing common knowledge.

A weapon’s dps is the sum of all its skills including their cooldowns?
If u cant even show what your statement means, then i wont be bothered by your posts anymore.

@Death – okay, i’ve been trying to be polite/civil to you. but all you’ve been doing is keep implying that i’m not paying attention while you’re the one being fixated on “cleansing” being brought up. and nit pick what you want to nit pick on within my and others’ posts. is it not part of gameplay? is a forum discussion not allowed to branch off into other aspects of the game?

Death, i know the point you are making. and this whole time, all i’ve been trying to convey was that by using a build such as, 10/30/0/30/0, the DPS gain is more than marginal as you make it out to be, and the loss of survivability is not as big as you make it out to be (which happened to be tied to cleansing, thus why it was brought up, can you at least see where i’m coming from with this?).

bottom line is – there is no one superior build over any given other build. people can play whatever they want to. if you believe AH is superior to all, that’s fine. again, i love AH. though, i just don’t stand for people telling others off for using other builds.

I run AH in all the dungeons, It doesn’t effect your DPS in any negative way.
My AH + Lyssa check it out >> http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/guardian/?3.3%7Cc.1g.h1.d.1g.a7.0.0.0%7Cb.1g.h1.f.1g.a7.0.0.0%7C1g.7i.1g.7i.1g.7i.1g.7i.1g.7i.1g.7i%7C4s.0.3s.0.2s.0.3s.0.1g.67.2s.0%7C0.u67b.u16b.5.5%7C2e.7%7Cw.13.16.18.1i%7Ce

DeathPanel.8362:

Sutcliffe.5491:

Lol. Your logic is faulty. What matters most is that how fast the damage can be unleashed on the monster and not the cooldown because during cooldown of weapon skills, u can still use other attacks.

That’s the point. A majority of the overall damage done in any given time segment is NOT going to be PS with mace.

If over a given duration only a tiny % of the overall damage is done by PS then it would be an insignificant factor in determining the overall dps worthiness of a weapon.

It would certainly not make any meaningful difference in determining which one has higher dps between GS and mace that the other guy tried to pass it off as.

Sorry but you are the one with the faulty logic here.

/sigh

5300 dmg on a 2600 armor target. If I can proc that quickly even every 20 seconds that’s an increase of 265 DPS. If you watch the target you’ll know when to trigger it to damage as the target swings. In this specific scenario Mace only needs an increase of just over 100 DPS to pull ahead of GSword, PS gives it that. I honestly don’t care for spread sheet calculations, I haven’t found one that I feel is accurate enough to use. If people say GSword is the best then why the hell can I kill stuff as fast or faster with other weapons?

In reality its a function of player skill and attention in combat. Most weapons are so dam close you can run whatever weapon loadout you want for DPS and be competitive with the right builds.

Adelz.8429:

I run AH in all the dungeons, It doesn’t effect your DPS in any negative way.

you do get 30% crit damage from taking 30 in valor, but there are some things that your build is missing.

1 – lack of condition cleansing. this isn’t a problem if you’re in a static group as a 2nd guardian with the first one bringing condition cleanses, but otherwise you’re missing out on a lot of utility

2 – lack of consecration traiting. this is pretty unacceptable. consecrations are amazing in almost every dungeon. you can still use your wall of reflection but it’s gonna be less effective and this will hurt your team.

also, radiant fire is terrible compared to powerful blades; don’t take it. even if you plan on taking the trait, it’s going to be pointless since you lack the 10 in zeal for fiery wrath.

tl;dr – while taking AH may give a seemingly significant statistical boost, the massive loss in utility and the loss of 30 trait points cripples your effectiveness.