Guild Wars 2

I made this a new thread as I didn’t want to derail the Writ of Impediment one too far.
I’m going to concisely as possible re-iterate a comparison of the two soldier classes, both designed to be most effective in melee, as stated by ArenaNet.

Zero trait investment and no utilities (for the sake of build independent mechanics) yields the following:

Warrior
- Six weapon skill cripples
- Four weapon skill stuns, including bursts.
- Two weapon skill knockdowns.
- Two weapon skill immobilses.
- One weapon skill pull.
- Seven gap closer weapon skills including short range skills like Shield Bash, excluding pulls and “Charge!”.
- Generally very mobile combat style.
- High health pool, can take a lot of damage.
- Can use pretty much any weapon they want per build (common sense assumed).
- Good ranged damage.
- Good at bursty damage.
- Hard to escape from.
- Can buff and heal allies quite well if built to do so.
- Can be very hard to kill if built to do so.

Guardian
- Zero weapon skill cripples.
- Zero weapon skill stuns.
- Two weapon skill knockdowns (The wards, they’re a whole other thread).
- Two weapon skill immobilises.
- Two weapon skill pulls.
- Three gap closer weapon skills including short range skills like Mighty Blow, excluding pulls and Symbol of Swiftness.
- Generally very stationary combat style.
- Low health pool, can negate a lot of damage.
- Somewhat pigeonholed into using different weapons per build.
- What ranged damage?
- Good at sustained damage.
- Easy to escape from.
- Can buff and heal allies quite well if built to do so.
- Can be very hard to kill if built to do so.

(Underwater weapons are included, I’ve excluded push and launch skills. While they are nice control skills, they remove the foe from melee range.)

I’m all for doing the same thing in different ways but surely anyone can see the disparity between the two in regard to effectiveness in melee?

I don’t have a problem with sustained damage, in fact, it’s normally what I prefer but being unable to maintain melee range to administer said sustained damage renders it useless.

This is not about who can kill who fastest or whatever, read the thread again if you think I’m having trouble fighting Warriors. It’s about the melee effectiveness of each profession separately.

TL;DR: Give us cripples please.

Edit: Clarified a few things.

You have to look a more larger circle, but its a right discussion.

Now look the main melee oriented classes that are, guardians, thiefs, warriors.

Warrior have: High HP, High Burst damaged, Good Toughness, Good mobility(high swifness uptime), Good CC ability, Jump mechanics with relatively shot CD shared across weapons. Mis survivability (high with LS food)

Thiefs: Low HP, High Burst Damage, Low Toughness, Impressive mobility, High CC ability, High Teleport mechanic with short “CD”. High survivability if used correctly, very low if used only to attack frontly. (high with LS food)

Guardian: Low HP, High sustained damage, High Toughness, Low Mobility, Low CC ability, Teleport mechanic on some weapon with mid CD. high survivability (very high with LS food)

this is only a simple scheme, made without taking in consideration the utility slots. but is a sum of how the classes work.

Interesting post, but there are a couple of omissions and a problem.

I don’t see how we have two weapon pulls.

Greatsword has a 2 stage (as in delayed) Pull with Binding Blade, what else?

You should add a Leap for Greatsword Leap of Faith and 2 Teleports for Sword’s Flashing Blade and Judge’s Intervention to Guardian.
Mini leap (300) for Hammer – Mighty Blow

(Also Pull is very different to Leap and Teleport).

Warrior needs a Leap for Savage Leap on Sword, a Charge (1200) for Greatsword’s Rush and something for Whirlwind Attack (as it moves you over an area quicker than you can run for 450 distance).
Leap (600) for Earthshaker and Mini leap (300) for Eviscerate and Shield Bash.

Also, you mention this is without traits, but is it also without Utilities?

Guardian has another Immobilise from Signet, and two more knockdowns from Signet and Spirit Hammer.

You have to take into account the skills CD too. Most of the Warrior skill are below the 10 seconds without traits.

@Ganzo – Yeah, I left traits out because I don’t think people should have to spend 20-30 traits simply to get a snare (even if it’s just a suggestion at this point haha!). I also left utilities out because I wanted to keep the comparisons rather broad and available to essentially every build. A “play how you want” kind of approach I guess as I’m aware that a Guardian could run greatsword + hammer with Bane Signet, Signet of Wrath and Judge’s Intervention and then say I’m wrong, however, they’ve pretty much made an entire build around control when Warrior gets the snares with shorter cooldowns regardless, as you know.

I left Thief out as I was more comparing the two soldier professions as they are the most similar in playstyle but I’m certainly not discounting your input at all! I find the Thief’s weapons all to be quite functional and fun! I wish Guardian’s weapons worked so well together.

@Ezael – You’re forgetting spear #5, I’ve included underwater weapons in the list. The Warrior one is on the spear as well. See above for why I excluded utilities but even with them I find Warrior comes out on top. Not everyone can afford to run Signet of Wrath or Hammer of Wisdom. Hammer of Wisdom can be pretty good but as I mentioned earlier, I left out the push skills as they generally remove the foe from melee range. I’m of course referring to its chain skill and not its activation skill when I say push. Due to your input I will edit the original post to include gap closers and clarification on utilities. Thanks.

I agree that Guardians are missing out on some serious CC compared to literally any other class but in all honestly I haven’t really missed it. The easiest class for me to kill is the warrior since they have to stay in melee range to deal most of their damage which suits me as a Guardian just fine.

You might want to switch the whole, “heal allies very well when built to.” I only say this because a Warrior could very easily spec into shout heals which stacks very well with healing power. This is giving the warrior short cool downs on 3/4 shouts given. The results are about 2300 health gain per shout when specced. Guardians on the other hand must not only spec into such a build, but have their teammates remain within a symbol to gain significant healing when empower is on cd.

tanshiniza.8629:

I agree that Guardians are missing out on some serious CC compared to literally any other class but in all honestly I haven’t really missed it. The easiest class for me to kill is the warrior since they have to stay in melee range to deal most of their damage which suits me as a Guardian just fine.

Do you run a classic tank/support build with 30 Valor? If so, then your playstyle has nothing to do with this thread, as tank/support players of the Guardian are perfectly satisfied the way things are.

Every Guardian runs 30 Valor, It’s our best tree by far. I would trade both Zeal and Radiance before I traded Valor. This is how good the line is.

Arken.3725:

Every Guardian runs 30 Valor, It’s our best tree by far. I would trade both Zeal and Radiance before I traded Valor. This is how good the line is.

I know it is, and that’s my point. If you’re satisfied with 30 Valor with a tank/support build being what the Guardian is, then these kinds of threads aren’t for you. An AH build is already very effective; adding suggestions relative to snaring/gap closer on that would simply be overpowered, and only reinforce one build: 30 Valor.

I understand but when you’re the only profession that doesn’t posses a specific condition/boon, there’s something wrong. Especially when you’re the slowest class to begin with.

Alarox.4590:

Arken.3725:

Every Guardian runs 30 Valor, It’s our best tree by far. I would trade both Zeal and Radiance before I traded Valor. This is how good the line is.

I know it is, and that’s my point. If you’re satisfied with 30 Valor with a tank/support build being what the Guardian is, then these kinds of threads aren’t for you. An AH build is already very effective; adding suggestions relative to snaring/gap closer on that would simply be overpowered, and only reinforce one build: 30 Valor.

Tank and full damage builds have the same need. Land Damage. Resist on damage for a long time, without be capable to land a hit, its a slow death, or just a draw when the enemy go away.

But i agree that a full Dps build need stronger effects than a tanky one.

I don’t know. You can’t really judge a class based solely off it’s weapon abilities. Traits are important, as are utility skills when it comes to balancing a class and without taking all into consideration you run the risk of making a class too powerful, or too weak.

The way I see it, Warrior is a straight-forward, selfish class. Yes, it has some decent weapon skills, but almost everything about the class is focused on staying on their target and doing as much damage as possible, with very little utility. So it makes sense to me that Warrior’s would have so much mobility and control (cripple).

Guardians on the other hand are much more focused on defensive abilities and group support. Don’t get me wrong, Guardians can do some very nice damage, and don’t have to be a healbotting boon machine, but that’s kind of what the class was designed to do, at least to some degree. Also, fixing wards so they aren’t such a joke would add so much to the class as far as control is concerned.

I personally think Guardians are in a good spot balance-wise, and comparing Guards to Warriors is not a good way to determine balance as they are two completely different classes.

Edit: And just so we are clear, I almost always roam solo in WvW without AH or MF.

Vitu.3580:

I don’t know. You can’t really judge a class based solely off it’s weapon abilities. Traits are important, as are utility skills when it comes to balancing a class and without taking all into consideration you run the risk of making a class too powerful, or too weak.

The way I see it, Warrior is a straight-forward, selfish class. Yes, it has some decent weapon skills, but almost everything about the class is focused on staying on their target and doing as much damage as possible, with very little utility. So it makes sense to me that Warrior’s would have so much mobility and control (cripple).

Guardians on the other hand are much more focused on defensive abilities and group support. Don’t get me wrong, Guardians can do some very nice damage, and don’t have to be a healbotting boon machine, but that’s kind of what the class was designed to do, at least to some degree. Also, fixing wards so they aren’t such a joke would add so much to the class as far as control is concerned.

I personally think Guardians are in a good spot balance-wise, and comparing Guards to Warriors is not a good way to determine balance as they are two completely different classes.

Edit: And just so we are clear, I almost always roam solo in WvW without AH or MF.

Warrior can be as supportive as the guardian if he use Shouts or banners, and warhorn.
Just like a guardian is supportive if he use Shouts, consecrations or a staff. we have simbols, but only few poeple go to the simbol to take a buff)

Guardian are more Group oriented due to the traitline, but this is not a justification for the lack of mobility\control\range.
The comparation with warriors is actually quite good. We have to do melee damage to kill an enemy, just like the others, but actually we are not in a good spot to fulfill this damage role. (WvW talking)

Ofcourse its a justification lol. Guardians are not warriors and Anet, just as they did in the beginning will be the first to tell you that class philosophy will stay for as long as they can maintain it.

Almost all the QQ comes from rerolled guardians who want the power of all classes in their new fotm. Yet that will just bring a nerfhammer so large you’ll be left as useless as your average engineer.

Most of the abilities guardian lacks, it lacks for good reason. People are too narrow minded. If you give a class like guardian warrior controls and equivalent tools, with his ability to cover distance with IJ, shrug of damage with aegis x2 and pull, ward and control enemies guardian will be so ridiculous that warriors wont even be seen in game anymore.

Its my belief warrior is the one who needs more diversity outside of 100b and eviscerate. As well as alot more options and less gimmicks. Guardian is in a good place right now, if anything i’d see his ranged complement increased purely because those weapons are useless nearly regardless of use.

Still, people need to stop helping the homogenization of the game. Diversity should be maintained.

Ganzo.5079:

Warrior can be as supportive as the guardian if he use Shouts or banners, and warhorn.
Just like a guardian is supportive if he use Shouts, consecrations or a staff. we have simbols, but only few poeple go to the simbol to take a buff)

Look at every ability a guardian has access to:

Shouts, symbols, consecrations, meditations, virtues, spirit weapons, signets, even the weapon skills.

How many of those only affect the Guardian? Even untraited, how many only affect the guardian? The answer: Not many.

Now look at Warriors. Besides their shouts, and their banner everything else is focused solely on doing damage or immobilizing their target in one way or another.

A support Guardian, as far as healing and booning is concerned, is far far superior to a support Warrior.

Ganzo.5079:

Guardian are more Group oriented due to the traitline, but this is not a justification for the lack of mobility\control\range.
The comparation with warriors is actually quite good. We have to do melee damage to kill an enemy, just like the others, but actually we are not in a good spot to fulfill this damage role. (WvW talking)

What do Guards and Warriors have in common?
-Heavy Armor
-Melee Weapons

Besides that they are completely different classes with completely different styles of play.

Would you say an Engineer needs more access to stealth because a Thief has access to stealth? They both wear medium armor and use ranged attacks

Would you say a Necromancer needs access to confusion because a Mesmer has access to confusion? They both wear light armor and use ranged attacks.

Guards and Warriors – though they have very few similarities – are very different classes, and comparing them to one another as if they are not is an unwise method to resolve balance issues.

Of course we can use 4 weapons and 9 utilities in the same time.
IM not asking for sure for 2 or 3 cripple skills for every weapon, But rebalance our weapons skill to avoid the costant kiting\fleeing enemy.

Contrary to the warrior philosophy, a guardian dont need Ranged and mobility and snare, but range OR mobility OR snare.

Ganzo.5079:

Of course we can use 4 weapons and 9 utilities in the same time.
IM not asking for sure for 2 or 3 cripple skills for every weapon, But rebalance our weapons skill to avoid the costant kiting\fleeing enemy.

Contrary to the warrior philosophy, a guardian dont need Ranged and mobility and snare, but range OR mobility OR snare.

The point is, just by looking at the abilities of the class you can easily see that it was designed with an emphasis on a defensive play-style through boons/heals/and control abilities. Not saying that a Guard is forced to play this role, but you have to actually try very hard to run a build that doesn’t provide at least mediocre group support.

Whereas a Warrior was designed to be a brute. They charge into a fight with the highest priority being to kill as many people as they can. Very straight forward play-style.

I would rather see a buff to our ranged weapons, primarily Scepter.

Vitu.3580:

Ganzo.5079:

Of course we can use 4 weapons and 9 utilities in the same time.
IM not asking for sure for 2 or 3 cripple skills for every weapon, But rebalance our weapons skill to avoid the costant kiting\fleeing enemy.

Contrary to the warrior philosophy, a guardian dont need Ranged and mobility and snare, but range OR mobility OR snare.

The point is, just by looking at the abilities of the class you can easily see that it was designed with an emphasis on a defensive play-style through boons/heals/and control abilities. Not saying that a Guard is forced to play this role, but you have to actually try very hard to run a build that doesn’t provide at least mediocre group support.

Whereas a Warrior was designed to be a brute. They charge into a fight with the highest priority being to kill as many people as they can. Very straight forward play-style.

I would rather see a buff to our ranged weapons, primarily Scepter.

I comment the bolded parts.
Our control options are not effective for our playstile, just because we have very few of them, they have mid\long cd or are tied to a specific weapon choice. That’s why for me, every guardian weapon need at least some kind of light snaring effect, that can be usable quite often.

For the scepter buff, its matter of taste. I like the idea of a Melee exclusive class, thats why im personally asking for more snaring on Melee range, than an improvement of our range capabilities.
But these two things, go in the same direction, Be capable to handle efficiently ranged\kiting enemies.

Scepter immobilize is nice, I really like it. I also like smite defensively. People talk about overhauling scepter auto but I think it needs to be totally replaced. Staff 2 is still not good enough imo, and ward needs some sort of extra attribute to it to help with the ‘kitten you took 5 months to cast that animation, but I got stability on bro’’ issue. Which has made it borderline useless.

I’d maybe add a DoT to scepter auto to maximize reward for landing a blow (if it has to stay as it is) as well as giving an aoe cripple effect like thief caltrops, or similar to ward to make it still do something even if the stability, knockdown is nulled. Its fine to say ‘yeah but they still wasted a dodge’ but thats not good enough imo, at least not with the shortfalls.

Vitu.3580:

Ganzo.5079:

Warrior can be as supportive as the guardian if he use Shouts or banners, and warhorn.
Just like a guardian is supportive if he use Shouts, consecrations or a staff. we have simbols, but only few poeple go to the simbol to take a buff)

Look at every ability a guardian has access to:

Shouts, symbols, consecrations, meditations, virtues, spirit weapons, signets, even the weapon skills.

How many of those only affect the Guardian? Even untraited, how many only affect the guardian? The answer: Not many.

Now look at Warriors. Besides their shouts, and their banner everything else is focused solely on doing damage or immobilizing their target in one way or another.

A support Guardian, as far as healing and booning is concerned, is far far superior to a support Warrior.

Ganzo.5079:

Guardian are more Group oriented due to the traitline, but this is not a justification for the lack of mobility\control\range.
The comparation with warriors is actually quite good. We have to do melee damage to kill an enemy, just like the others, but actually we are not in a good spot to fulfill this damage role. (WvW talking)

What do Guards and Warriors have in common?
-Heavy Armor
-Melee Weapons

Besides that they are completely different classes with completely different styles of play.

Would you say an Engineer needs more access to stealth because a Thief has access to stealth? They both wear medium armor and use ranged attacks

Would you say a Necromancer needs access to confusion because a Mesmer has access to confusion? They both wear light armor and use ranged attacks.

Guards and Warriors – though they have very few similarities – are very different classes, and comparing them to one another as if they are not is an unwise method to resolve balance issues.

See I dont believe this is correct, the comparison is needed because we are both VERY melee heavy classes, with guardians have almost zero ranged options. I honestly look at it as though theif should be the ultimate melee mobilty, warrior a mix of mobility and snaring, and guardians as the “i might not be mobile but you arent going anywhere either.” but the issue is that our counterpart in warriors have good mobility and lockdown while we have neither. And this leaves us at a huge disadvantage despite warriors having more damage and close to the same survivabilty. (stupid giant health difference)

Also i disagree as far as support guards vs warriors go. Guardians are the hands down defensive support specialists while warriors are more offensive. I would kill to get afury buff other than save yourselves personally.

ErraticFaith.9142:

Ofcourse its a justification lol. Guardians are not warriors and Anet, just as they did in the beginning will be the first to tell you that class philosophy will stay for as long as they can maintain it.

Almost all the QQ comes from rerolled guardians who want the power of all classes in their new fotm. Yet that will just bring a nerfhammer so large you’ll be left as useless as your average engineer.

Most of the abilities guardian lacks, it lacks for good reason. People are too narrow minded. If you give a class like guardian warrior controls and equivalent tools, with his ability to cover distance with IJ, shrug of damage with aegis x2 and pull, ward and control enemies guardian will be so ridiculous that warriors wont even be seen in game anymore.

Its my belief warrior is the one who needs more diversity outside of 100b and eviscerate. As well as alot more options and less gimmicks. Guardian is in a good place right now, if anything i’d see his ranged complement increased purely because those weapons are useless nearly regardless of use.

Still, people need to stop helping the homogenization of the game. Diversity should be maintained.

Summary:

1.) If you aren’t satisfied with tank/support and little offensive abilities, then you must have rerolled from an OP class.

2.) Guardian with Warrior level control is apparently OP because we have Judge’s Intervention and the ability to use Aegis twice, and a Hammer ward on a 40s cooldown.

3.) If you want Guardians to be effective at offensive melee via CC abilities, you’re actually just narrow minded and want the game homogenized.

Fortunately interpretation is individual, what I ment and what you think I ment, not really that important to me.

Guardians dont have too little offence for their defence lol, because of that they shouldnt have warrior control. If they did it would be OP.

Why change guardians role indeed. Just use your brain and role something thats orientated to work well for that role, instead of expecting godmode from a support class.

ErraticFaith.9142:

Fortunately interpretation is individual, what I ment and what you think I ment, not really that important to me.

Guardians dont have too little offence for their defence lol, because of that they shouldnt have warrior control. If they did it would be OP.

Why change guardians role indeed. Just use your brain and role something thats orientated to work well for that role, instead of expecting godmode from a support class.

Here is where you reason is sinking…guardian is not a support exclusive class!
Classes have to fulfill every role on this game, if you like to play on the rear when your ally fight, do it.
I like Prologued fight, Exaust my enemy and then finish him, but i cant, just because i have not enough tools to achieve it, even if a defensive class, is build for this, long fights.
When the fight become too long, the enemy pick his swiftness and go away, and i can do barely nothing to avoid this.

ErraticFaith.9142:

Fortunately interpretation is individual, what I ment and what you think I ment, not really that important to me.

Guardians dont have too little offence for their defence lol, because of that they shouldnt have warrior control. If they did it would be OP.

Why change guardians role indeed. Just use your brain and role something thats orientated to work well for that role, instead of expecting godmode from a support class.

Some of us actually like our class and dont want to reroll. And I am sorry but giving the reroll as an answer is not good enough. As far as saying we want godmode as a support class is rather wrong as well. No other class is labeled as a straight “support class” so why should guardian? We have offensive potential, but the issue is our lack of ability to stay on a target no matter what spec you go with.

ErraticFaith.9142:

Fortunately interpretation is individual, what I ment and what you think I ment, not really that important to me.

Guardians dont have too little offence for their defence lol, because of that they shouldnt have warrior control. If they did it would be OP.

Why change guardians role indeed. Just use your brain and role something thats orientated to work well for that role, instead of expecting godmode from a support class.

Actually, Honor/Valor =/= Guardian. Guardians are not a support class. Guardians are not a tank class. Guardians are a class where currently, only one part of the class is balanced: tank/support.

The Zeal/Radiance lines, the Greatsword/Scepter/Sword/Torch are part of the Guardian profession. They are all offense oriented, not defense and support. “Just use your brain”.

The Guardian is a class that has a base amount of support/defense no matter how you build it. Just as the Warrior is a class that has a base amount of burst damage no matter how you build. However, that doesn’t mean the only role of the class is that base amount of X. All it means is that it’s easier to hybrid that base, with whatever you want.

The problem with the Guardian is that you don’t gain much offensive/control capability if you don’t go deep into tank/support. “Just use your brain”.

Alarox.4590:

The problem with the Guardian is that you don’t gain much offensive/control capability if you don’t go deep into tank/support. “Just use your brain”.

the only thing we gain with deeping the tank support role, is more uptime for retaliation, that dont fix the melee control problem.
and not all “tanks” go for retal in any case.

so our problem is still here, no matter wich build we use :P

We also need to just set fire to the valor tree honestly. Almost every build except for the healway requires 30 in it to be effective regardless if it is dps or tank. Is there any other class that requires this?

Bakitten291:

We also need to just set fire to the valor tree honestly. Almost every build except for the healway requires 30 in it to be effective regardless if it is dps or tank. Is there any other class that requires this?

The valor line is essentially the jack of all trades, in a jack of all trades class, not only for AH and monk focus, but also for toughness and crit damage together.

I think it’s amusing that people think that if we got the kind of cripples that Warrior gets, we’d be overpowered.
Go here:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cripple

Look at the distribution of cripple amongst the professions. You’ll find that every other profession, with the exception of Engineer (which I’m sure is another thread altogether as well, they still get cripples though) is able to easily administer cripple, regardless of traits, to about the same effect as Warriors are able to!
This is not even counting stuns and knockdowns.
Heck, you have to scroll down half the page before you even see the Guardian icon! You’ll notice, the only skills that inflict cripple are an underwater downed skill and an elite tome skill. Hardly practical.

So every other profession has about three (average across professions, only one on Engineer) weapon skills across all their available weapons on short cooldowns, while having higher mobility, being able to build to be hard to kill and this seems to be considered fine, yet the thought of Guardian getting a cripple makes us overpowered? What the heck?!

Being good at support is no trade-off for not being able to snare a foe, as someone stated earlier, Warrior shout healing builds heal everyone (up to five others) at a faster rate than Guardians and don’t require their allies to remain in a small area of effect. Elementalists can bring insane support and they still have access to cripples (and chills). Elementalists can be insanely hard to kill and they still have access to cripples (and chills), see where this is going?

I’m not going to compare the other professions any further, the purpose of this thread is to compare Guardian and Warrior as they are the most similar in playstyle (yes, I know they still play differently). ArenaNet devs even stated that both Warrior and Guardian need to be in melee range to deal their damage the most effectively, however, only Warrior can maintain it without gimping their build.

Silver.8023:

snip

Regarding engineers, my build has almost perma-cripple/chill.

Silver.8023:

I think it’s amusing that people think that if we got the kind of cripples that Warrior gets, we’d be overpowered.
Go here:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cripple

Look at the distribution of cripple amongst the professions. You’ll find that every other profession, with the exception of Engineer (which I’m sure is another thread altogether as well, they still get cripples though) is able to easily administer cripple, regardless of traits, to about the same effect as Warriors are able to!
This is not even counting stuns and knockdowns.
Heck, you have to scroll down half the page before you even see the Guardian icon! You’ll notice, the only skills that inflict cripple are an underwater downed skill and an elite tome skill. Hardly practical.

So every other profession has about three (average across professions, only one on Engineer) weapon skills across all their available weapons on short cooldowns, while having higher mobility, being able to build to be hard to kill and this seems to be considered fine, yet the thought of Guardian getting a cripple makes us overpowered? What the heck?!

Being good at support is no trade-off for not being able to snare a foe, as someone stated earlier, Warrior shout healing builds heal everyone (up to five others) at a faster rate than Guardians and don’t require their allies to remain in a small area of effect. Elementalists can bring insane support and they still have access to cripples (and chills). Elementalists can be insanely hard to kill and they still have access to cripples (and chills), see where this is going?

I’m not going to compare the other professions any further, the purpose of this thread is to compare Guardian and Warrior as they are the most similar in playstyle (yes, I know they still play differently). ArenaNet devs even stated that both Warrior and Guardian need to be in melee range to deal their damage the most effectively, however, only Warrior can maintain it without gimping their build.

What is really scary is adding in the Stun/knockdown/immobilize/daze/chill lists to that. Then you begin to realize how bad guardians really are at control mechanics as a whole.

Maybe a little off topic, but I’m just curious if anyone has noticed an improvement in the effectiveness of wards since the major update today. I haven’t had much time to play and I haven’t tested it on my Guard, but I noticed today that an enemy Line of Warding was keeping me on the ground much more than it used to.

I’m sure it can still be avoided with Stability, but I wasn’t bouncing through the ward or really able to dodge through it.

Anyone else notice anything, or just me?

Bakitten291:

See I dont believe this is correct, the comparison is needed because we are both VERY melee heavy classes, with guardians have almost zero ranged options. I honestly look at it as though theif should be the ultimate melee mobilty, warrior a mix of mobility and snaring, and guardians as the “i might not be mobile but you arent going anywhere either.” but the issue is that our counterpart in warriors have good mobility and lockdown while we have neither. And this leaves us at a huge disadvantage despite warriors having more damage and close to the same survivabilty. (stupid giant health difference)

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. I know we lack mobility, and I know we often have trouble chasing down enemies, but with everything else we have I just think being able to pin a target down for extended periods of time is just too much.

There are also other things to consider

Like the fact that Warriors have to remain stationary to deal out much of their damage. This is something Guards for the most part don’t have to worry about.

Guards have must better longevity in fights simply because we can heal much more than Warriors. In the long run a huge health pool doesn’t mean much if you can’t replenish it

And the fact that Guards can provide so much more utility for their team (heals, boons, missile reflection, etc.)

Bakitten291:

Also i disagree as far as support guards vs warriors go. Guardians are the hands down defensive support specialists while warriors are more offensive. I would kill to get afury buff other than save yourselves personally.

I just don’t see how anyone can think a Warrior can provide better or even close to equal support as a Guardian.

Guardians have access to so many more boons and can keep them up with much more frequency than Warriors (stability, protection, retaliation, aegis), not to mention the ones we share, we have unique situational abilities like Wall of Reflection/Spirit Shield, incredible condition removal, Fire combo fields and a spammable blast finisher, and far superior heals – both in quantity and quality, and I’ll argue that with you all day long. Almost every single ability (Weapon and Utility) that a Guardian can use also affects their allies around them in some way or another.

Warriors have Shouts and Banners (the viability of which is up for debate). The only boon they have access to that Guards do not is Fury, and if that makes them so much more offensive, then I submit in defeat.

I main a Guardian and I run primarily support when I’m in a party and I’m sorry, but I just can’t see any other class – with the exception of Elementalist – providing anywhere near as much support – be it offensive or defensive – as Guards. We have such a large diversity of abilities for almost any scenario you can think of, Warriors can’t even come close to competing.

Vitu.3580:

Like the fact that Warriors have to remain stationary to deal out much of their damage. This is something Guards for the most part don’t have to worry about.

Wait, what!? I assume you’re referring to Hundred Blades? Not every Warrior uses that and even then, it’s hardly most of their damage if they aren’t a gimmick build. Warriors can do great damage with any weapon loadout.
If you’re referring to Flurry, well the associated immobilise target on that skill fixes that problem and if not, they’ve got that handy cripple on sword too. If you’re referring to the rifle and harpoon gun burst skills, well, they’re huge hitting ranged burst skills, which is not really the point of the thread but I know I’d kill for a good ranged weapon on Guardian.

The only other Warrior skill I saw that makes them stationary is Staggering Blow, which is hardly most of their damage either. The point is though, even if they did use mostly the five skills that immobilise them whilst channeling, Warriors still get the cripples, immobilises and knockdowns on the weapons themselves to be able to use those five skills effectively.

For the sake of argument, Guardians also have to remain stationary to take advantage of much of their boons and heals. I would say a banners support Warrior with Battle Standard, For Great Justice and any other banner could keep a timely stability, semi-permanent swiftness, permanent regen, 3-6 stacks of might, whatever boons and auras they want from the multiple blast finishers banners provide and good fury uptime on the whole party. All without losing a single weapon snare. In fact, the banners provide another gap closer.

Regardless, it doesn’t matter who can throw out more damage, conditions, boons or healing as the trade-offs for those are already in place and I think they’re relatively balanced. As follows:

Guardian – Somewhat more boons and healing (debatable) offset by lowest possible health pool. Not as much damage output.
Warrior – Doesn’t heal as much (again, debatable) offset by highest possible health pool and higher damage output.

So the real difference is, once again, who needs to maintain melee range to be most effective? Both Guardian and Warrior really (annoyingly enough, the Warrior actually doesn’t even have to).
Who is actually able to do so effectively with zero traits and utilities? Warrior only.

Disclaimer: I say without traits and utilities because I don’t think a profession designed to shine in melee should have to specifically build their character just so their targets can stay in range easier and forgo greater utilities just to do so. It should be how the profession naturally plays, you know, kinda like how Warrior weapons work.

I never really liked the idea that guardians should be a support class

The reason being it seems like a watered down version of the elementalist

Why would i want to play support guardian

When Support elementalists support just as well
and can still blow people up with staff aoe
and can similarly whip out a dagger or a sceptor to become one of the best dueling classes

All in 1 single support build.

Meanwhile, support guardians
supports and does nothign else

The question is, why is the Guardian widely considered to be THE support class.
When the only advantage we have over a support ele is pretty much only wall of reflection…..and maybe stability.

The healing between Warrior and Guardian is not debatable!

Guardian
-Virtue of Resolve
-Orb of Light
-Empower
-Healing Breeze
-Faithful Strike
-Shield of Absorption
-Battle Presence —- Just got a huge buff with the latest update, and really wasnt that bad before
-Pure of Heart
-Selfless Daring
-Command Spirit Bow
-Merciful Intervention (though I will submit this one is a bit sketchy)
-Tome of Kitten Courage!!!!!!!
or
-Renewed Focus —- Grants 2 Virtue of Resolve, and 2 Pure of Heart within 4 seconds!!!!

And almost permanent Regen uptime through utilities/runes, not to mention the multiple boons (almost permanent 12 stacks of might!) also associated with many of these abilities. One build can have access to every single one of those abilities and traits at the same time and with enough Healing Power every single one of those heals will hit for no less than 2k with the exception of maybe 2-3 of them, and they heal for about 1k.

Warrior
Vigorous Shouts…….so up to 3 abilities that apply healing on medium CDs with various bonuses associated with them…..

How the Kitten can you even think these 2 classes are similar in healing? How?

No class can achieve this much sustained healing, and only Elementalists can compare in boon outputs. That is just the truth.

Vitu.3580:

The healing between Warrior and Guardian is not debatable!

Guardian
-Virtue of Resolve
-Orb of Light
-Empower
-Healing Breeze
-Faithful Strike
-Shield of Absorption
-Battle Presence
-Pure of Heart
-Selfless Daring
-Command Spirit Bow
-Merciful Intervention (though I will submit this one is a bit sketchy)
-Tome of Kitten Courage!!!!!!!
or
-Renewed Focus —- Grants 2 Virtue of Resolve, and 2 Pure of Heart within 4 seconds!!!!

And almost permanent Regen uptime through utilities/runes, not to mention the multiple boons (almost permanent 12 stacks of might!) also associated with many of these abilities. One build can have access to every single one of those abilities and traits at the same time and with enough Healing Power every single one of those heals will hit for no less than 2k…..easily

Warrior
Vigorous Shouts…….so up to 3 abilities that apply healing on medium CDs with various bonuses associated with them…..

How the Kitten can you even think these 2 classes are similar in healing? How?

No class can achieve this much sustained healing, and only Elementalists can compare in boon outputs. That is just the truth.

This is only an half truth.

We have most healing effects, but how they heal compared with healing shouts?

Warrior shouts heal people for a minimun of 1400hp per shout, and used only for heal, without think of the shout effect, with traited shout you can onload per minute:
Shake it off x3: 4200 heal
For great justice x3: 4200 heal
on my mark x2: 2800.
you can onload 10k AOE heal per minute, and with a rune of soldier also something like 10+ condition cured.

All of this without any kind of healing gear.
i was used to play an arcer shout warrior time ago(my second char), maybe its a noobish build with a non pro playstile. But it was quite effective.

Just because that…..maybe we could support better than a warrior doesnt mean that we should be funneled into support builds which many people seem to be suggesting.

And im pretty sure i compared with the ele btw……….

To me us being maybe better at support than a warrior does not disqualify us
from asking for improvements in areas such as better ranged weapon
or as suggested by this post, better control and stuff.

Its like being able to support has become a bit of a bane of our class.

Whenever we ask to get some buffs.

People just go
But your a support class, go support.

lcc.9374:

Just because that…..maybe we could support better than a warrior doesnt mean that we should be funneled into support builds which many people seem to be suggesting.

And im pretty sure i compared with the ele btw……….

To me us being maybe better at support than a warrior does not disqualify us
from asking for improvements in areas such as better ranged weapon
or as suggested by this post, better control and stuff.

Its like being able to support has become a bit of a bane of our class.

Whenever we ask to get some buffs.

People just go
But your a support class, go support.

You aren’t funneled into being a support class, but the FULL WvW potential of Guardian’s are in support builds. I’ve been there when the game came out and guilds were roaming around with 4-6 support Guardian’s doing coordinated wall of reflections, sanctuaries, walls of linings, stabilities, and tomes while beasting out heals to everyone. It makes your zerg into an iron juggernaut.

People seem to think since there’s no trinity in this game that it’s all about throwing numbers around.

Also, Guardian healing is leaps better than Warriors. Mace symbol + Writ + heal on dodge roll + Battle Presence.

lcc.9374:

Just because that…..maybe we could support better than a warrior doesnt mean that we should be funneled into support builds which many people seem to be suggesting.

And im pretty sure i compared with the ele btw……….

To me us being maybe better at support than a warrior does not disqualify us
from asking for improvements in areas such as better ranged weapon
or as suggested by this post, better control and stuff.

Its like being able to support has become a bit of a bane of our class.

Whenever we ask to get some buffs.

People just go
But your a support class, go support.

It’s not maybe.

And you don’t have to run with a support build. I run a solo DPS build and am currently working on a full zerker set. I don’t use Altruistic Healing or Monks Focus – though they are probably the 2 most powerful traits in the entire game – and I think I do pretty well. I still have sufficient survivability, damage, and even mobility to take on almost any 1v1 and can even come out on top in some 1vX fights.

I can even fight zerg vs zerg running into a huge group of enemies laying down some Greatsword AoE (~5K+ on everyone around me) and still be able to pop some invulns and heals in time to escape back to the friendly zerg.

The thing is, people want this class to be unkillable and still be able to kill everything. I do hate perma-stealth Theives. I hate that I can outplay them so hard and nearly flawless victory them only to have them stealth and run away. Same for Eles. But I’ve come to accept that that’s part of the class.

I can tank a surprising amount of damage with a berserker build and I can do quit a lot of damage. I can even provide modest amounts of group support, and not even realize I’m doing it.

The class has to have a weakness and that comes in mobility.

For all those that “guardian does not need anything, you’re megagimped in anything else than support/defense because you’re really good at it so don’t cry”.

When is support/defense ever better than offense in this game?

MagnusLL.8473:

For all those that “guardian does not need anything, you’re megagimped in anything else than support/defense because you’re really good at it so don’t cry”.

When is support/defense ever better than offense in this game?

Here is not a matter of offense is better then defense, or viceversa.
The problem is to have choices, and not follow a definite path.
They are pushing us on a strictly support role.
I like defensive classes(because of the long fight they can do), but i hate to be supportive (or at least, be support only and feel forced to be with a group 100% time), usually a roam alone on WvW, and when i start a 1v1 fight, i WANT TO HAVE the CHANCE of winning, even against a kiting kitten.
But without tools, without balance, all the whole story of the non trinity sistem or play what you enjoy to play, is only a big pile of steaming kitten.

The Guardian’s weakness is the low health pool and having no real ranged damage.

I don’t see why the Guardian’s also has to have no cripples as a melee centric profession in a game where the combat is constantly moving and every other profession has access to plenty of cripples and a comparable amount of other control skills. The lack of ranged damage is a bit of salt in the wound but I would prefer cripples over ranged.

Like I said earlier, being good at support is no trade-off for not being able to snare a foe! Especially so for builds who aren’t aiming for support at all. How is this even reasonable? Why does Guardian have to give up snares because they can support well?
Do Elementalists lose snares if they go support?
Do Warriors lose snares if they go support?
Do Engineers lose snares if they go support?
Do Rangers lose snares if they go support?
You better believe they don’t!

Why then does Guardian not get any to begin with and the only counter argument is, “They’re good at support”? They’re also supposed to be good at melee!

Alarox.4590:

tanshiniza.8629:

I agree that Guardians are missing out on some serious CC compared to literally any other class but in all honestly I haven’t really missed it. The easiest class for me to kill is the warrior since they have to stay in melee range to deal most of their damage which suits me as a Guardian just fine.

Do you run a classic tank/support build with 30 Valor? If so, then your playstyle has nothing to do with this thread, as tank/support players of the Guardian are perfectly satisfied the way things are.

I am by no means a support Guardian although I do play that way for dungeons for anything else I am full burst. I am not sure what in my original post led you to believe I play support Guardian because all I said really was that I kill warriors easily?

Ganzo.5079:

MagnusLL.8473:

For all those that “guardian does not need anything, you’re megagimped in anything else than support/defense because you’re really good at it so don’t cry”.

When is support/defense ever better than offense in this game?

Here is not a matter of offense is better then defense, or viceversa.

Oh but it is. The usual line of arenanet’s white knights regarding the constant gimping of the guardian is “you are good at defense so you cannot be good at offense”.

They conveniently forget to mention how for example at high level pve play every mob can one or two shot you so defense is useless, or how pvp is all about burst damage etc.

Being good at defense is worthless in a game where you cannot defend efficiently anyway.

guardians best heal is the dodge roll, scales with all healing power.
with some vigor you can heal ~129+HP every three seconds. no other class can do so much healing, while tanking and DPSing.

I read a lot of comparisons to how eles are good support.

I played ele and ele is quite s.h,i.t-t’y support comparing to guardian. because in order to play ele properly you have to switch attunements all the time, but the passive regen and healing spells are only on water, so if you stay in water you cant DPS or stack boons, if you dps or stack boons, you cant really heal.

the dodge heal is (grandmaster trait “evasive arcana” in arcane tree) on 10 seconds CD in water atunement with very little sources for vigor while guardian dodge heal is only 15 points trait that have no CD and we have almost 100% uptime on vigor (between 5 seconds of vigor on crit to save yourselves shout )

except fury for party (via sharing auras build water 30 + air 10). there is nothing that elementalist can do but guardian cant.

Silver.8023:

The Guardian’s weakness is the low health pool and having no real ranged damage.

I don’t see why the Guardian’s also has to have no cripples as a melee centric profession in a game where the combat is constantly moving and every other profession has access to plenty of cripples and a comparable amount of other control skills. The lack of ranged damage is a bit of salt in the wound but I would prefer cripples over ranged.

Like I said earlier, being good at support is no trade-off for not being able to snare a foe! Especially so for builds who aren’t aiming for support at all. How is this even reasonable? Why does Guardian have to give up snares because they can support well?
Do Elementalists lose snares if they go support?
Do Warriors lose snares if they go support?
Do Engineers lose snares if they go support?
Do Rangers lose snares if they go support?
You better believe they don’t!

Why then does Guardian not get any to begin with and the only counter argument is, “They’re good at support”? They’re also supposed to be good at melee!

Firstly, of the 4 classes you mentioned, only one comes close to guards in terms of a viable support build. The other 3 have virtually no viable support build, or compared to Guardians their support is severely lacking.

Secondly, If you have to go heavy support to get a Cripple as a Guardian, then I guess I have no issue with that. Its the damage focus builds like the one I am currently using that would be just too powerful with a snare.

The combination of health regen, boons, condition removal, situational skills, damage, and even what little mobility that a guardian already has access to would make a frequent cripple too strong.

I’ll just leave it at that. We clearly don’t agree on this subject, nor will we likely ever. That’s ok, we are all entitled to our opinions. In any case I’ll be happy whether a change like this is implemented or not.

Lalangamena.3694:

guardians best heal is the dodge roll, scales with all healing power.
with some vigor you can heal ~129+HP every three seconds. no other class can do so much healing, while tanking and DPSing.

I read a lot of comparisons to how eles are good support.

I played ele and ele is quite s.h,i.t-t’y support comparing to guardian. because in order to play ele properly you have to switch attunements all the time, but the passive regen and healing spells are only on water, so if you stay in water you cant DPS or stack boons, if you dps or stack boons, you cant really heal.

the dodge heal is (grandmaster trait “evasive arcana” in arcane tree) on 10 seconds CD in water atunement with very little sources for vigor while guardian dodge heal is only 15 points trait that have no CD and we have almost 100% uptime on vigor (between 5 seconds of vigor on crit to save yourselves shout )

except fury for party (via sharing auras build water 30 + air 10). there is nothing that elementalist can do but guardian cant.

I’m sorry to say but everything you’ve said above is invalid because you said yourself ‘to play ele properly you have to switch attunements’ which is the classes mechanic and if you don’t like it don’t play it.

The Ele can burst heal when in water then switch to a damage dealing attunement which is the whole point of the class so it would be kinda stupid if you could just go water and deal damage and heal because that isn’t the point of the Ele.

Guardians Heal. It is what we do. We can also deal burst because in all honesty every frigging class can deal burst or go tanky mode if they want.

Some classes have it harder than the Guardian I am not going to deny that and I also think Guardian is one of the most balanced classes in game at the moment they just need to fix the useless skills we have along with the useless skills of every other class as well.

also can Guardians CC, deal damage and heal as well as escape as well as an Ele can? probably not cause I have seen DD ele’s take on 10 people at once and get away with it. If I did that on my Guardian I would die rather quickly.

Lalangamena.3694:

I played ele and ele is quite s.h,i.t-t’y support comparing to guardian.

You are kidding right? tanshiniza provides a pretty good debunking of your claims but have you ever played with an auramancer? They are amazing examples of what a support ele can pull off.

I think what a lot of “you get healing so be happy” people here don’t realize is that there is more than one way to support a group. Direct healing isn’t the pinnacle of support nor should it be, and it definitely should require a class to be bad in every other area. No one wants homogeneity but some sort of parity would be nice considering nearly every other class’s ability spread.